[Treasur]

Well, of course, you have the right to tread your own path regardless of anyone else’s opinion, including mine lol.

It sounds as if you have had, and have, a Husband In Name Only. And a Father in Name Only?
I don’t know what you get from that which makes it ok enough for you to continue on the same path, but I imagine you do or you wouldn’t do it.

Still, I feel I would be doing you a small service perhaps by pointing out some of the inconsistencies. You say there is no Co-parenting practically as such, that you are the only parent to your daughter….yet you feel you should consult with him about even day to day things. Why is that? What happens if you don’t agree? What does your daughter want - or not want - from her relationship with him? And you say you value his opinion whilst also saying he hasn’t been much of a husband or father for sine time. What do you value about his opinion? Why? And what do you and/or your daughter get which is pleasant or beneficial from him sitting on the sofa playing with his phone? Bc I assume you know that this is not normally how things work with separated parents, right? What do you think would happen if you responded to his last opinion that there is ‘no chance’ of repair or reconciliation by changing some of these things? And given what he said, why do you think you are not legally divorced? And how is that helpful to you and your daughter or less helpful?

None of these are questions you need to answer here, just things for your own reflection.
Why might that matter?
Bc it sounds as if your h currently does pretty much as he wants and that perhaps leaves you and your daughter in a kind of Family but Not Family limbo. He’s eating quite a lot of cake there for a man who makes these grand never ever pronouncements, isn’t he? Imho it’s a healthy thing to reclaim some of one’s own control, and choices back over one’s own life, particularly when someone you trusted unilaterally forced you to accept their choices, often while blaming you for it! And that doesn’t mean you necessarily have to make big changes, but perhaps small ones like how much time he’s invited to soend at your house or what you consult him about or not.

Is this the kind of life that you want? Is this ok with you for the next 6 years? Bc it seems to be ok with him as a way to live so it probably won’t change much unless you change it.

Are you waiting, my friend? Bc that’s your right too, but the odds are slight and life presses on.

My sense is that you are ok enough with how things are, or maybe a bit frightened of making it worse, so you have decided to keep on doing what you’re doing. And that’s your right, of course it is, but other folks here might be a better source of support for you in that choice than me. Bc I see a kind of uncertain limbo, bc you talked about feeling ‘frozen’ in your first post on this thread and bc I remember how unsafe and stressful that felt as a way to live.

[kalypso]

Hello again dear Treasur and thank you indeed for trying to un-stuck me! But I am uncurable!(essentially I don't think there's anything wrong with me!)

I really appreciate what you do to help me and everyone else in this forum and I am sure every being that crosses your path!
I would like to answear your questions, because maybe you will be able to provide even more clarity.

H abandoned us in September 2018 and lives since with OW. So we are separated but not legally divorced, i.e. there is no court order declaring the annulation of the marriage. As a lawyer, I could easily get a divorce if I wanted, and I suppose H is just too tight with money to pay his own lawyer.

You are absolutely right that H is a H and father in name only. But I see no inconsistencies from my part. My need to consult him about a lot of things is a result of many factors.
1. Regarding D, I feel it is my duty to inform and ask his opinion, even though he doesn't act as a father. I want to be fair, even if he isn't. I usually ask about things I am not sure about, otherwise I decide alone. If he disagrees, I will do what I choose as an only parent. He knows that and has not objected.
2. Notwithsanding what he has done, I still value his opinion because other than the destruction of his family and personal choices (about which his opinion is unreliable in my view), he still has the capacity to judge rightly (i.e. when our D had problems with other children at home, when I almost lost my job last year, about my car, house repairs etc). He also asks for my opinion but not as usually as I do.
3. As I have no parents and no one else as close, I have to have someone I trust  . (ok, you understand the kind of trust I mean I hope ). For example, there is no one better available to have my house keys and take care of our cat and plants when we are away, or if someone locks himself out of the house (D did lasr week and he came to unlock) and for safety reasons.
4. Need I say that as long as I love him I also appreciate his opinion?

Regarding H visiting, if it is a good day for me, I get my "dose" of seeing him. If I am busy or it's a day that I feel angry at him, I don't get anything (besides him taking out the garbage!) and I ignore him.
Our D is 12 years old and doesn't want him. She doesn't answear his calls and messages (but she reaches out sometimes, like when she has problems at school, as she sees that I appreciate his opinion).
Unfortunately D gets I think almost nothing pleasant or beneficial from him (except from the ice creams and snacks he gets her). I'm sorry to say that I cannot do anything about that. She just ignores him or sends him away and he doesn't make any effort.

I would not change my choices, conduct or "path" in response to his last opinion that there is ‘no chance’ of repair or reconciliation. I don't think anything would happen if I did, but even someone told me that this is the key for him returning, I would not change who I am or what I feel (also there is a saying here that nothing you do or dont do can snap someone out of MLC, if that it is). In any case, that's just me being me! Furthermore, if I changed something after his denial he would rightly understand that I did it out of spite because he hurt me. And I try to not respond that way to people.

I' m sure you re right about him cake eating, but why is that my problem or what do you suggest I do about it? For example, I want him to have my house keys for the reasons mentioned above, and as for the coming and going anytime he wants, it usually doesn't bother me at all (if it does, I ask him beforehand not to come, and sometimes he comes and finds no one here besides the cat!). I don't feel like I have lost control or choices over my life, it's the one choice of being with him that I have lost. Also, I don't feel that I will gain something by not asking so frequently his advice or tell him to not visit when he can. But please tell me if you can some other practical examples about how to stop cake eating.

Now I realize that people are saying that I am on the porch making doilies and waiting for him to get his head out of the fog and of course it's true that I wish he would rise from the dead. At the same time, I am also aware that there is almost no chance for that to happen (or if it did, it might mean great compromises from my part, which I might not be able to accept). And surely it is not the plan I signed for, but it is the way of life I conciously CHOSE, given the consequences he forced me to accept. I really do not see any change I would like to make to improve things and I certainly would not react with a choice I did not choose myself first to answear to his stupid demeanour or his recent rejection.

I know that life goes by, but I am content with the blessings that I have and there isn't really something that I need or want besides him. So you are right dear Treasur saying that I am ok enough with how things are, but I' m not at all frightened of making it worse with my H, because he cannot do any worse than he has allready done. There is a saying here that he who is wet in the rain is not afraid of it. What I am afraid is that if I chose to find a new H, I know I would be fully devoted to him and terminally close the door to the tiny chance of my H returning. So that's surely one factor that keeps me back. But I cannot predict what could happen if the right person came about. Nor can I predict if my way of thinking will change after I digest my H's recent total denial. Judging from the past 6 years, I think I will just have some mood swings but my feelings will remain same. Today he came when our D was away because I wanted to ask him something about the repairs that the workers do to my house and I was very happy to see him, like what he said 2 days ago only slightly touched me. I have not been  like this for the past 6 years, there have been swings, but mostly I was numb. For the past month I feel intensly in love with him.

[xyzcf]

I found myself nodding as I read through your post several times. You are right, there is nothing wrong with you.

Few people on HS understand that it is really ok to have a relationship with the MLCer. The phrase "cake eating" is used to imply that we are letting them walk over us by allowing access to them in our homes and in family events, but for a variety of reasons, as you have pointed out, this can be beneficial.

The love we have for them does not magically disappear because they had a crisis. 6 years sounds like a long time to not see changes...but my husband neglected our daughter for much longer than that, but eventually, he started contacting her more and their relationship is better. I am happy for both of them that this is so.

I allowed him in to our lives yet I continued to leave the old life behind and find a new one. His being here at times did not stop me from healing nor moving forward.

We do not have to change who we are or how we treat others because they had a crisis.

I agree with you, that if I had found another partner, I would have closed the door on the contact I have with Mr. xyczf...that hasn't happened and thus this is the life I have now.

We do not know what will happen. A good friend of mine from many years ago on HS was divorced, had obtained an annulment and both she and her ex husband were is serious relationship.s with other partners...7 years after BD he started coming around, they eventually married and have a truly wonderful life together. We truly do not know what will happen.

My BD was 15 years ago, we spent the day together yesterday and for the first time in 15 years where we have had lots of contact, he opened up to me and it was the first "real" conversation we have had in 15 years. Perhaps he is now going to face his inner turmoil and inner demons, I don't know. I do know that he trusted me to share with me.

What I do know, is like you, I have never stopped loving the man. My choices have been carefully weighed and I am content that I followed what I thought was best for our daughter and our family.

The pathology of a crisis is not well understood, nor the reasons why some people go into a crisis while others seem immune. I have found that contact allows me to see him in real life, rather than trying to figure out what I think is going on with him. That has been helpful to me in my own journey.

Good luck.....as my therapist told me when I questioned if seeing him was a good or bad thing for my mental health, she said "You can choose to see him one day and change your mind another. That is totally up to you".

The choice is ours. Other's situations might have similarities and we can learn from one another but each relationship here is unique and a one size fits all approach is not going to work for each case.

[Treasur]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with you either 😜

Your path may not be mine or someone else’s but that doesn’t matter. You are under no obligation to justify your path to anyone else at all if you feel it is currently working ok for you. For most of us, BD was an act of big disrespect and devaluing, so I happen to think that it is even more important that we respect each other here.

And I hope it is comforting to know that other people here, as Xyzcf says, have chosen something similar if their circumstances allow them to do so and feel much as you do. I am glad that you feel happy with how things are overall even though it is not your ideal situation.

I imagine that you came to post here bc you were looking for something - most of us do. But as you also say that you are content and not looking for change, I wonder if I missed what that something was. We are here to support and learn from each other, so I’m sure you will tell us what you need if you think we can be helpful. Until then, I will simply wish you and your daughter well as life moves forward x

[kalypso]

Hello dear xyzcf and Treasur and thank you!

xyzcf, I found myself smiling  as I read through your post several times! Fistly I am REALLY happy that yesterday Mr. xyzcf opened up and trusted you to share things! Now this may mean that he is starting to come around or not, only time will tell. BUT in my view the important thing is not if his opening up means movement or not, but that after 15 years the connection still exists! As you rightly say, "the love we have for them does not magically disappear because they had a crisis". And I believe that this applies to them too, if indeed it was love. During their crisis, they cannot feel / do not feel in the same way as us / are encased in stone. We know that most do not resolve their crisis, but for the few that may do, it MAY somehow be possible to find their way to their feelings. Because if indeed there was so intense love, it cannot disappear or ran out like it was toothpaste! And for the tiniest and slightest chance that this may happen, I want to be there.

Now I know that most people will say that I am wasting my life waiting for a miracle, and I agree that it needs a miracle from God for that to happen. But I do not think or feel that I am wasting my life. I enjoy and praise God for the blessings that I have and I live my life as I CHOOSE, given the circumstances. I choose to include H in my life and I know that I have the freedom to throw him out of it. I choose not to replace him with someone else (though I have suggestions without asking). I choose to be alone, though I don't like it, because I still love him intensly. I am aware that I can reconsider these choices any time, and that H or anyone else cannot tell me how to live my life. So the way I currently live is not a waste of time but a choice.

xyzcf, I am happy that the relationship between your D and Mr. xyzcf  improved, even after such a long time. I think with awe about the 15 years that have passed from your BD. When my H left and I found that crisis can last years or forever and read people's stories on HS, then I thought how on earth would I find the strength to wait for so long. But here I am after 6 years, with a lot of wounds but blessed with my D and whole life, and with my feelings very much alive!   

Disclaimer: I am not in any case implying that my way is the right way or that people in my place should not move on with other partners, if they wish so. We all here have a common denomination, that our H/W had a crisis with catastrophic results. So there are many common traits and we learn from each other. But other than that, each person is unique and handles the situation as he deems better for their family.

And to answer Treasur's question, I am here because this is a place with people who "get it", who can offer support and advice or just read the stories and have some more insight into this mlc phenomenon. I am happy that xyzcf understands me and sees things from my viewpoint, but I am also happy reading different opinions about my handling of the disaster and everyone's story, as I can get a better perspective of the MLC situation and life and people in general. It is always beneficial for people to talk, interact, exchange info and ultimately help each other with their problems and questions, especially in cases of extreme doubt and lack of knowledge. So  I am writing here for people who get it and I am looking for all the above. I do not know people in real life who get the situation and I welcome every opinion and of course different ones and I also use this as a diary! I also thought you would be interested in reading my update about how after 6 years nothing has changed and H is as determined as he was on BD to not ever again want me as a partner. So for those of you who are at the beggining, I would say that it's probably better to wait 2-3 years after BD and then find someone else, if you wish so.

Treasur, I never thought you implied that there is anything wrong with me 😜!  And indeed BD is an act of great disrespect (but not of devaluing, only us can devaluate ourselves). But no one can make people respect them. One can only force them to treat them like they do, and I am not interested in that. I was at the first 2 years, when H would come and shout or insult me in front of D, and then I took his keys and threatened law orders. But he has since calmed down and behaves to me like a distant friend (with occassional bursts). So I don't understand what I would get from not letting him come as he please. I know he may interpret this like "the door is open and I am waiting", but it's the truth and I just told him a few days ago. Does me " allowing " him to eat cake  mean that it will delay him resolving his crisis? Firstly, I don't believe H will ever come out of it. He just confirmed so. Secondly, even if cake eating delays the crisis, I don't have any proof of that,  I don't know and I really don't care anymore, because I will not change who I am.

P.S. I'm sorry for all the grammatical and spelling errors! English isn't my first language!


 
 

[UrsaMajor]

So I don't understand what I would get from not letting him come as he please. I know he may interpret this like "the door is open and I am waiting", but it's the truth and I just told him a few days ago. Does me " allowing " him to eat cake  mean that it will delay him resolving his crisis? Firstly, I don't believe H will ever come out of it. He just confirmed so. Secondly, even if cake eating delays the crisis, I don't have any proof of that,  I don't know and I really don't care anymore, because I will not change who I am.

Hi Kalypso,

"Allowing him to eat cake" will not have ANY impact on his crisis. You have about as much chance of impacting or altering his crisis as you would (you are about to get one of my famous UM'ism here) to change the path of a tornado by standing in front of it, yelling at it and waving your arms around..... I think what Treasur is trying to get at is What are YOU gaining from it? How does it benefit you (and your daughter)? Is it causing harm to you or her mentally/emotionally/financially/physically?

Those are the "guidelines for setting boundaries".

His statement about him expecting you to come begging for him to come back is EXACTLY the MLC mindset that they want. They want to see the LBS sitting in a pile of snotty Kleenexes in their rocking chair, crocheting lace doilies and pining away for them. Nothing scares a Mid-Lifer more than to see an LBS growing forward and living a good life, especially because they (the Mid-Lifer) is usually NOT living a "good" life, despite the huge show they put on about how their new life is just a world full of puppy dogs with waggly tails, pink clouds of cotton candy every where and unicorns that run around farting clouds of rainbow glitter.... Being able to come and go as he pleases means that he is, in effect, absolved of his responsibilities. He is immune to the consequences of HIS choices. He is able to have his single life AND his "family life" but has no responsibilities for the 2nd one.

If that is a situation that you can accept, if it is a situation that causes you and your daughter no harm, then no one here can tell you or will tell you that you MUST do things differently. I think that Treasur was just maybe encouraging you to take a look at it from a different point of view. After all, we are all outsiders looking at your story/situation through our own lens of experience.

[kalypso]

Hello UM and thank you!

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I have objections and questions!
I think we have 2 different subjects here.
1. What do me and D gain /lose from letting H eat cake.
2. What consequences does cake eating have on H.
So there are two differents things we have to consider.

1. What do me and D gain /lose from letting H eat cake:
As I explained in my previous post, I and D only benefit from asking H for advice and allowing him to visit at will. I cannot think of anything else and I also asked if you can please tell me some other practical examples to consider about how to stop cake eating, that are applicable in my situation.

2. What consequences does cake eating have on H: As you rightly stated UM,
 a) "Allowing him to eat cake will not have ANY impact on his crisis" and
b) "Being able to come and go as he pleases means that he is, in effect, absolved of his responsibilities. He is immune to the consequences of HIS choices. He is able to have his single life AND his "family life" but has no responsibilities for the 2nd one".
I totally agree and accept a) and b).

But then we come to the inevitable conclusion that if 1) the form of cake eating I allow is only beneficial to us and 2a) it has no effect on my H's crisis, then 2b) why do I care if he is absolved of his responsibilities and immune to the consequences of HIS choices? I don't think you suppose that I want to punish him for what he did. Because I know I could and I don't want to!

So as I stated in my previous post,  I' m sure you re right about him cake eating, but why is that my problem? And what do you think me and D gain from stopping him eat cake?

[KayDee]

It does seem hard to imagine what anyone gets out of having a silent man on their couch, scrolling through his phone. I personally don't think this is cake eating. Not sure what it is, perhaps he thinks if he goes through the motions of turning up, he has fulfilled his duty as a father. But as you said in an earlier post, there is not much interaction between them. So while his sitting on the couch behaviour continues it could be preventing him stepping up to the plate as an adult parent. The danger could be that your D sees this behaviour as some sort of weird dance between you and your H, rather than a mutual benefit of having him in the home. Apologies if I have misread the situation - it currently reads like he is not making much effort as a father or co-parent.

[xyzcf]

DGU (DontGiveUp) used to ask me many many times...."Xyzcf, what part of the word CRISIS don't you understand"?

A man/woman in crisis is a total enigma. Unless it comes from within themselves....they are not going to step up to the plate and start being a father/mother because we don't allow them to "sit on the couch".

Trusting( another HS member ) and I are past 15 years since BD. To some, it sounds crazy that we should still care about our spouses...but, we both saw men who withdrew from everything in their previous lives, including their children and have very gradually started to spend more time with them, pay more attention to them and have a relationship with them.

Maybe because Trusting and I both allowed them to "couch sit" when that is all they were capable of doing at that time.

It is definitely dysfunctional...no doubt...but as I stated in another thread..in working with children who have been abused and are in dysfunctional families....we meet the parents where they are. Often, it's not enough and we seem to agree on Hero's Spouse that therapy or medication are not going to resolve their crisis, which is why, for me, the Erik Erickson's stages of development seems to fit...the MLCer does change, many admit that they never stopped loving their spouse, many years and years later regret what happened.

If the LBSer can get to place of peace within themselves with what has happened...if being in the MLCer's space doesn't cause the LBSer great mental distress...then the LBSer is quite capable of having their spouse around without getting anything from them....  the whole "no expectations" thinking.

And the child will see and understand, the compassion, empathy and unconditional love that is shown. And if the parent and child are able to recognize the "crisis" for what it is...they can accept, adjust and move forward in their lives.

If the MLCer ever wishes to catch up, they will have a long road ahead...for as we know...the LBSer is the stronger one and the one most likely to create a new and beautiful life for themselves with their integrity and beliefs intact.

Just my view.

[kalypso]

Hello dear KayDee and xyzcf and thank you!

KayDee, you are right that what me and D get out of having a silent H on our couch, scrolling through his phone, is minimal. And maybe in his current state that is only what he is capable of doing, thinking that in this way he has fulfilled his duty as a father just by showing up. Of course I realize it's problematic and dysfunctional, I stated that in my previous posts. But it does NOT cause harm to us! And I strongly believe that having him in our lives, even in this state, is better than not having him at all. If my H had alzheimer's and wouldn't respond, would I throw him out of the house because the situation would be dysfunctional?

Sometimes I did encourage him to try more with D, when she was younger and I saw that she needed it, and he always responded, but now I don't because she doesn't want him.

xyzcf, I applaud your post. One cannot make another love/respect/treat them as a father or how a h should. One can only force them to behave like they do. And I am only interested in genuing feelings. As xyzcf pointed out, unless it comes from within themselves, they are not going to step up to the plate and start being a father/mother because we don't allow them to "sit on the couch".

UM, you wrote that "His statement about him expecting you to come begging for him to come back is EXACTLY the MLC mindset that they want. They want to see the LBS sitting in a pile of snotty Kleenexes in their rocking chair, crocheting lace doilies and pining away for them. Nothing scares a Mid-Lifer more than to see an LBS growing forward and living a good life, especially because they (the Mid-Lifer) is usually NOT living a "good" life...". I don't know if this statement is true, but even if it is, why should I care about what scares the Mid-Lifer? Do I want to scare him? Even in cases like mine, that I still want him, would I just "grow forward" to show him how useless he is? I will do what I choose regardless of him, not only because it will not affect his crisis but because I don't do things to scare people or show them anything.

UM, as I wrote in my previous post, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but please kindly advice me about my unanswered question,  because I may be missing something.

So, if 1) the form of cake eating I allow is only beneficial to us and 2a) it has no effect on my H's crisis, then 2b) why do I care if he is absolved of his responsibilities and immune to the consequences of HIS choices?  I' m sure you re right about him cake eating, but why is that my problem? And what do you think me and D gain from stopping him eat cake, except punishing him?