[Dontgiveup]

I am divorced.  Of course your current relationship with your MLCer is unaccetable.  I understand why an LBS gets to a point where they just can't or won't do it any more.  I get that.

You say you would be willing to work toward a new, better marriage if your husband makes it through the MLC process.  Chances are pretty high that he will.  Standing is about helping you refine those relationship skills by working on the Self through the Unconditionals.

From one of the Standing articles:
Do you think going through the divorce process will be easier and less painful than Standing? Do you think being divorced will be easier and less painful than Standing? You can choose not to Stand and seek or agree to divorce. But that choice will not be easier or less painful. It may be resolved faster, but the pain and regrets linger and have no reconciled ending.

[OldPilot]

Zinger I thin the problem is when the LBS initates the divorce it is telling the MLC'er that they are shutting the door on the relationship.

We all agree that your marriage was over at BD, all of our marriages were over at that point.
By filing for divorce you may be shutting the door on a reconcilliation down the road.
Not to say that it can't be done but I think it is another nail in the door keeping it closed.

[zinger]

OP -- I hear you.  Might another way to look at it rather than nailing the door shut is to completely set them free?  Give them nothing more to run from or push back on except themselves?  Or perhaps I can see the value in not initiating the divorce, but if a MLCer asks for a divorce, agreeing rather than saying "I don't accept that."  Doesn't that just cause immense frustration and additional rebellious urges on the MLCer? 

DGU -- I definitely don't think that getting a divorce would be easier than standing.  And can't one still refine those relationship skills while they are divorced? 

I guess my question boils down to this: If we all agree that divorce is a piece of paper, and it can't stop an LBS from working on your self and it likely won't prevent the MLCer from returning if they ultimately choose to, but it DOES create a symbolic end to the old damaged marriage, and it DOES set the MLCer completely free to journey as they need to, and it DOES send a message to the MLCer of a clear and symbolic boundary as far as what the LBS will and will not tolerate as acceptable treatment, why run from, push back or try to stop MLCer from getting a divorce.

[stayed]

Zinger, interesting thought, plus the clarity of your quandary!

But asking for a divorce NOW says to him and to me that currently this relationship is unacceptable and I have no interest in being a part of his current MLC life and choices.  Again, not with the intention of affecting his journey or expediting his journey or manipulating his journey AT ALL.  Just for the purpose of being clear to him and to myself about what kind of relationship I want to be in. 

I hope that helps clarify my question and point for discussion.

I think everybody missed ZINGERS point.  She is saying, she does not like this man in MLC.  She does not wish to be married to the person he is now.  She is not ruling out future reconciliation but the point she is trying to make is worthy of consideration.

I see exactly where you are coming from Zinger.  You are simply saying, this is not the man I married, nor do I wish to be married to THIS present person.  There is no way ANYBODY can answer that for you Zinger.  You know your heart, your soul and your mind.  It is YOU who will have to live with the outcome of such a decision. 

For myself, I just plain did not know what to do!  Being in that state, I chose to "FREEZE"... LET TIME pass, take a look at it further down the road.  I have this thing about 3's... 3 hours, 3 days, 3 months, 3 years... others use the 48hour rule.  I always did any soul searching in 3's as well.  When I asked myself a question or thought I had come to a decision, I gave myself the 3 day rule, plus asked myself the question 3 times.  On the 3rd. asking and after the obligatory 3 day wait, if I gave myself the same answer, then I did it. 

Now, this gets complicated, because if I got mixed responses in any of those 3 day/3time asked periods, I shelved ANY decision for at least 3 mos.  This deviates from your initial enquiry.

I think for most of us in here, we find it hard to believe, that the person we loved, married, had children with, grew older with, wasn't still in that BODY and MIND, somewhere.  He/she still looked the same.  Often they sounded and talked the same.  As long as we saw anything that resembled the person we loved, then I guess most of us were willing to "hold off" from doing anything drastic. 

I sure can understand your LOGIC though.  This is not the man you married.  You don't like this man and you surely do not have to tolerate or stay married to him.

Like most things about this MLC crap... there really are no right or wrong answers.  We simply have to be true to ourselves.

Hugs Stayed

[stayed]

Quite honestly Zinger, I can't see any reason why an LBS'er and and MLC'er can't complete their journey, married or divorced.  As long as one does carry on with their journey. 

Perhaps the motivation, incentive to complete our journey is reduced if we divorce.  I just don't know, as quite frankly, I fail to see how the pain, suffering, looking within oneself can possibly be avoided.  It is just the nature of this "sort" of situation.

Hugs Stayed...

[unbroken]

If we all agree that divorce is a piece of paper, and it can't stop an LBS from working on your self and it likely won't prevent the MLCer from returning if they ultimately choose to, but it DOES create a symbolic end to the old damaged marriage, and it DOES set the MLCer completely free to journey as they need to, and it DOES send a message to the MLCer of a clear and symbolic boundary as far as what the LBS will and will not tolerate as acc

First of all, I'm not sure we all agree on all of that, but let's set that aside.
I do believe that people can reconcile whether there has been a D or not.  I know two cases personally.

Perhaps the motivation, incentive to complete our journey is reduced if we divorce.

I do think the suffering of this journey is what helps people to change - both the MLCer and the LBSs. And I think that is one benefit of standing.  Since I have not "moved on" I have been forced to look at myself much more than if I had.  I have also looked at my H and what he is going through.  When he came back after a year, I half thought to myself that it was too soon, that I hadn't finished working on myself.  That was true.  It took almost 3 years to see his depression.  The first few years all I saw was his replay mask.

There's no one right way to do this.  This website and forum shows you techniques that are likely to help you, particularly during his replay.  You still have to be true to yourself. 
I would say that there are ways to show your H that you do not approve of his behavior without Ding him.  My H knows.  I have never told him I would take him back regardless.
 

[OldPilot]

Might another way to look at it rather than nailing the door shut is to completely set them free?  Give them nothing more to run from or push back on except themselves?  Or perhaps I can see the value in not initiating the divorce, but if a MLCer asks for a divorce, agreeing rather than saying "I don't accept that."  Doesn't that just cause immense frustration and additional rebellious urges on the MLCer? 

Yes I pretty much agree with what you wrote.
We should validate their desire to get a divorce.

I guess the part that I am trying to stress is that it should be their divorce, we should not help them with the process.
As Dr. Phil says they need to earn their way  out of the marriage.
They need to do all the work required to make it happen.
We should not help them.

I think when it becomes our divorce then the door is being shut.

[StandandDeliver]

The main concern that I would have had regarding a quick divorce is that, in my situation, it could have created a situation where H felt able to immediately marry OW before really spending any time living with her - it would also increase the chances of a pregnancy etc. While we are still married they are less likely (not totally unlikely) to do that. That means that H (in theory) has had enough time living with OW to at least recognise her flaws and realise she is human. Now even if a divorce and remarriage come later, H will at least have a little insight into what he is getting in to...

[Dontgiveup]

Yep, there have been two different questions asked.  Why should the LBS run from, push back, or try to stop the MLCer from getting a divorce?  That's a different question that should the LBS pursue a divorce........and there's the other question of does it matter either way?

Here's a link to the article It Doesn't Matter What You Do.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_choose-joy_acting-as-if-fake-it-til-you-make-it_it-doesnt-matter-what-you-do.html

I agree with Stayed in the choice of a "freeze"......same sort of concept as a Stand in giving yourself time to make good decisions that you have less chance of regretting.  I like to say that I will leave the regrets to my MLCer.  Very few MLCers do not end up regretting their behavior.  Very few.

I understand the point.  The point is not unusual.  Who on this forum likes their MLCer in their present MLC emotional state?  I would dare say that is somewhere close to zero.

[LisaLives]

Z--I struggled with this a lot.  If I had not needed health insurance I would have divorced him the day after BD. 

I truly believe that staying in a marriage while my H parades around another woman in what used to be my place is a horrible example for my teenage boys.  It is telling them I am a doormat and that the "institution of marriage" itself is so important that I will allow myself to be humiliated by a strange man that has taken over their father's body.  And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself.  I don't totally buy that. 

I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them.  I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed.  In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed.  No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance.  But he bailed. 

There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)).  I am a good person, and I was a good wife.  And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life.  And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect.  But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse.  The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.

And that is where I wonder, is divorce sometimes the best answer for reducing collateral damage—especially the kids?