[Thundarr]

Frankly, this pisses me off.  I agree with Affaircare on everything she says and it really just pisses me off to think that this is based in sin rather than some type of mental illness.  I am a Catholic and just hate that my W has betrayed our family due to worldly temptations.  If she were "sick" as we like to think, I could handle that and would have no problem forgiving her.  Knowing this really is based on lust, greed, envy and probably other Deadly Sins just irks me to no end.

DGU, from what I gathered Affaircare is saying this CAN be prevented by the MLCer CHOOSING to look to their morals and values rather than following the temptations of sin.  If the person stops themself before it gets to be too easy to continue sinning, then the marriage can be saved and the partner will turn back to the spouse like they should.  Again, this pisses me off to no end that my W did not.

All in all, I'm just pissed off about the whole sitch tonight.  Maybe this is part of the grieving process, but right now I am pissed at my W.  I didn't deserve this, and if this really is caused by a weakness of the spirit rather than of the body then I will be much less forgiving in the long run. 

Hope this wasn't a hijack, Bon, but I just had to air out my feelings on this.

Thanks Affaircare for a very enlightening post, and to DGU as always for dissecting the important parts.

[Stillpraying]

Affaircare, DGU

WOW.  Really hits the mark.
Thundarr, I agree, Sin should make us angry.  But we all fail and fall short.  It's God's grace that brings us out again but we need to choose to accept it.  I think that's the tough part for me.  My H and I have sinned throughout our whole marriage.  We all do, but it's saying sorry and working on improving those things that makes a difference.  Choosing to repent and get back on track.  What's the ough bit is, he is just continuing in this sin of choice by staying with OW and being so hateful to us.  It feels never ending.  It hurts us and I also grieve for him becuase he's turning his back on God and not realising or giving up this sinful life.  Just listening to the enemy's lies.

[Dontgiveup]

"Knowing this really is based on lust, greed, envy and probably other Deadly Sins just irks me to no end."

I think MLC has more to do specifically with issues of love, self-esteem, and emotional maturation.  I am not in MLC, but I have the same struggles as others with the things quoted above.

"I gathered Affaircare is saying this CAN be prevented by the MLCer CHOOSING to look to their morals and values rather than following the temptations of sin."

From what I've read of Jim Conway, this is what would be described as the difference between MLT and MLC.  With MLCers, it is about control of their emotions.......so the question is this.....do they GIVE UP power over their emotions, or do they LOSE power over their emotions?

Conway says no one would ask to go through MLC.

"if this really is caused by a weakness of the spirit rather than of the body"

What if the answer is yes to both of the above?

[Covenant for Life]

MLC is a sin problem without a doubt!  And though we LBSers feel the effects of our MLCers sin problem, God feels it and grieves over it far more than we do.  The MLCer is being disobedient to God.  The rebellion against God and his commands is very real.  There is a verse in scripture that says that " there is no peace for the wicked."  Abandoning your spouse, your children, your covenant vows, and your God is the epitome of wickedness. 

God does not care what excuses or justifications a man or woman uses to betray his/her spouse.  God calls it treachery.  God calls it faithlessness.  God joins us and makes us one flesh.  "No man may separate what God has joined."

Bob and Charlyne Steinkemp have written many devotionals on the topic of this sin problem and remind us often of the fact that this is a spiritual battle.  Our spouses have fallen into sin and have been taken captive by Satan to do his will.  Satan's will is to kill, steal, and destroy us, our marriages, and our families.  Our spouses have been blinded and deceived.  They believe the lies of Satan instead of the truth of God's word and promises.  That is why so many of us now see our spouse as a different person.  Following Satan changes one's character, values, morals.  My H has done and said things that the man I married never would have done if he was not following the prince of darkness.

God says that He hates divorce.  I, too, hate divorce.  To have a divorce forced upon you against every fiber of your being, against the moral code that we live by, and especially against God's Word that says it is violence and treachery against the wife (or husband) of your covenant should make it pretty clear that the MLCer is indeed battling a sin problem.  A big time sin problem.

Thanks, AffairCare, for reminding all of us of the seriousness of this sin problem.  And, I encourage everyone to go to the Rejoice Marriage Ministries site and read all of Bob and Charlyne's archived posts on how serious God is about a covenant vow.

[NewBeginnings]

I have been told this by many, it is a sin that our spouses choose to engage in.  They broke their vows to have an affair.  They abandon
their families, are cruel, tell lies about the spouse and the list goes on and on.  So I have been telling myself since Feb. that my H
is having a MLC, he can't help it ect..  In the back of my mind I always felt that he had control over this, he just chose to abandon me and our son for OW.  He could have been strong and said no but he gave into his temptation and destroyed our family.   It really ticks me off. 

So here I am Standing, being kind to him and for what?   He abandoned me and our S in a 10 minute phone call.  I never saw it coming.  I was destraught that Friday night after the call and all these months I picture him and OW partying it up it up that night,  H saying I'm free, the two of them having the time of their life while I sat here hysterical in total shock, couldn't think or eat for months. 
He cut me and our S off from money for 3 months and has told many lies about me.  Yet here I am, being kind to him, hoping he will one day come home.  Why?  No one deserves to be treated this way.  We were a really nice family and he choose to abandon us to be with a low life skank with a criminal record and who lost custody of her son among other things.   He has spent alot of money taking her on trips, buying a Harley and God knows what else.  He won't produce his bank statements.  That is our marital money that he is spending on her!  Yet this month he only gave me 1/2 of what I need.  I have no money for food for his S!  He chooses to spend OUR money on her over his own child.

Standing, Paving the way.  Do I really want to do this anymore?  Do I want to continue to put up with his behavior?  I feel like me being nice to him is just saying to him that it's ok what you have done to me to our S.  It is not!   His behavior is dispicable.   No one deserves to be treated this bad.  He broke our vows.  He broke my heart and more importantly his sons heart, yet I continue to be nice to him.   Do I want to wait years for his relationship with OW to fall apart and then hope he comes back.  I feel like a doormat.  And if I let him come back, will he do it again, especially becaused I was so nice to him when he abandoned  us before.  I don't know.......I have alot of thinking to do.  I am so confused now. 

[limitless]

NB,
All of the things that you have written - are things that go through LBS' minds on and off throughout the crisis.  These are all good questions....Things that we all need to ponder.

The MLCer will do mean and cruel things.  He/she will be accountable for these things...someday, sometime.  Do not think they are having the times of their lives...cause they aren't.  That being said, your H is spending the family's money on him and his skank.  That isn't right.  But, it is typical.

Your focus needs to be on your upcoming court date...and assuring that you and your Son will get the funds that you need to survive.  Paving the way, hoping for a return....all those other things shouldn't be your concern.  Yes.  You can "pave the way" early in the crisis - but I'm not sure how much impact that will have on a man in full Replay - doing the things that he is doing.

I'm sorry that you are feeling so low.  I certainly understand.  It sucks.  It really does.

Take care and keep posting.

L

[Thundarr]

Super long thread here but on-topic.  It's from a former MLCer on another site that gives both her testimony and her analysis of what causes MLC and what it is.  I'll leave it to Affaircare and Beautiful Star to state whether this is consistent with their experiences or not, but I found it VERY telling.  Also, she completely counters my earlier statement about sin being the driving force during her post.  It is me she is replying to at the end.  Incidentally, she gave her blessing to post this here and offered to answer any questions anyone has for her.  Here is her testimony:


"I have been asked by a couple of you how long was the process. In hindsight it probably started a couple of years ago. I had put on weight, I didn't feel sexy anymore, I had lost my libido and after a while my partner had stopped asking me as well. During this time we were still very good friends, we did lots of things together and he was very supportive of me when I decided to return to university to get my nursing degree. At that time I was feeling like he was my friend rather than my lover but I was not overly concerned about it. We were still making plans for our future together. For some background, my son to another partner is 28 and has never known his father and refers to my partner as his 'old man' (we were together from when my son was in his early teens). My partner also has 2 children to a former wife. His relationship with his ex-wife is excellent (as is mine with her).

Once I had completed the first 3 years of my degree and I was able to register as a nurse I was expected (and wanted very much) to do what is called a graduate program where you work supported in a hospital and can try out different areas of speciality. I had trained in rural health and was interested in pursuing a graduate program working with our Indigenous population (we are in Australia and Indigenous people here have a life expectancy nearly 20 years less than their white counterparts which I find absolutely abhorrent). We discussed where I should apply for this graduate program. I was keen to move to our west coast for the year length program. I think I was so keen for us to go together that I chose to ignore his reluctance. He did agree in the end so I applied and was successful at obtaining my first preference. Even when the news came through I was a bit annoyed that he wasn't as happy for me as I had expected. As the time to move loomed closer I could no longer ignore his reluctance. I finally confronted him about it and he admitted that he didn't want to leave his two children from his previous marriage (a girl who was 16 and a boy of 13). It would also have been difficult for us to prepare our house to be rented as he works from home and it would have been impossible for him to move his tools and equipment. We eventually agreed that I would honour my commitment to the new job and that he would stay on the east coast to be near his children. I did feel quite a bit of resentment that he was not going to come with me after initially agreeing to it but I did respect his reasons why. He came with me to the other side of the country to help me settle in and we both cried heaps when he returned to the east coast after 3 weeks.

Initially I was quite settled in the west and got used to living on my own, being independent, eating what and when I wanted and generally having complete control of my life. This is where I think the very selfish part of the MLC reared its ugly head. I believe now that by being on my own and a long way from home I was ripe for the worst parts of the MLC to take hold. I hope this does not sound like I blame him for not coming. I did, but hindsight tells me that I was looking from a very narrow point of view.

Then 2 things happened at about the same time which nurtured the MLC demon to snatch me in its claws. One was that I found another program offered by my employer that would not only allow me to stay in the west but which would also fund my traveling between places (I would be offered the opportunity to work in 4 rural hospitals for 3 months each). There were some financial bonuses as part of this which also made it very attractive. He and I had often discussed moving around the country when we retired and I saw this as a chance to enjoy some of that now, even if it was going to be without him. I also was contacted by a man I had known on the east coast who was now working on the west coast and happened (through an injury he sustained) was working in the same remote town. I had felt a small attraction to this man over quite a few years but had never acted upon it (and never would have in 'normal' circumstances). This man loved working in the west and was happy to encourage me to spread my wings workwise and to remain in the west and to pursue what he touted as my dream. This was the affair I talked about in my post. My partner started to notice that I was making statements that he could not reconcile with the me he knew.

You all may find it hard to believe but I do have some morals so I ended my relationship with my partner and started on a relationship with this new man as I really didn't want to cheat on h a part of which is the inability to look at oneselfim. Absolute craziness when I look at it now but it seemed so sane and sensible to me at the time. It was disasterous from the start but that MLC demon now had a tight rein on my mind and I could not see how destructive it was. During this time I also managed to lose much of the weight I had gained. The new relationship only lasted for about 4 months and ended when he left me to work in another remote town a long way from where we had been. During this time I had been back to the east coast on 2 occasions. The first time was after 3 months in the new job when my relationship with my partner was still on track and once after I had dropped the bomb. He suspected that I had had a relationship with this new person but of course I denied it. My now ex-partner was not abusive, he was sad, he was still communicating with me and he never once attacked me even though he must have been dying inside. Not long after my parents came to visit. They didn't say anything to me at the time but apparently when they returned from their visit they felt they did not know me and wondered who this alien was walking around pretending to be me. My ex had given them some information about MLCs and they finally believed it.

My advice for what it's worth is to stand by your partner while the demon is in possession of their faculties. The demon reference may appear as a cop out to some but I can assure that it is not. I am an intelligent professional nurse who has been trained to reflect on their practice. I have an interest in mental health and I firmly believe that an MLC is a temporary form of mental illness which includes the inability to really see yourself.

I have been asked what the worse things were that I did as well as having the affair. The answer to that is that after my affair relationship broke up I advertised on a couple of internet sites for a replacement. I had a few more flings with various men, none of which were very satisfactory at all.

I was eventually accepted into the program that would see me continue to work in the west. Before I was to depart on the first leg my ex-partner decided to come and visit me at Christmas in part to help me not feel so alone at what would normally be a very family orientated time. During his stay he found some of my advertisements and the replies which of course hurt him even more. After all how could I advertise for a new man when the one I had left on the east coast still loved me? We did talk about the various relationships and during this time we slept together a few times which we both found beneficial but still I did not realise what I had lost. So even then he was still being a supportive and caring human being.

After he returned to the east coast I started a stupid relationship with a married man who cheated on me with someone other than his wife very early on. This also was not enough for me see how self destructive I had become. In my view I was achieving good things at work and I was ready to launch myself into my next career stage.

My first placement took me a remote town in a very beautiful part of the state. My ex and I talked a lot on the phone. I told him how much he would love the new town and how eager I was for him to visit. I spoke to my son about getting my 12 year old grandson to come for a visit and this eventually worked out but with an added bonus. My ex decided he could get away for the school holidays so we decided that he would fly up with both of the grandchildren. We were both very excited about the trip and I know he was hoping that it would be the catalyst for the much overdue and necessary lightning bolt.

Instead I was far too involved with the new long distance relationship I had developed with the married man, partially because now he had left his wife even though I had asked him not to and this made me a feel a little bit manipulated by him. In my defense I would like to add that even then I felt like I had been manipulated into this new relationship and that it was moving much too fast for my liking. The kids, my ex and I enjoyed the best holiday of our lives (even though I still had to do some shifts we did manage to see many of the sights I had told him he would love). My new relationship (and I deliberately don't refer to him as my partner here as that wasn't quite how I saw it), made sure that he contacted me everyday and that my ex could not possibly fail to see that I was involved with someone else. What I saw at this time was a product of my still delusional mind. I saw that my new relationship was going well and I really thought he loved me as he was so attentive. In reality he was very jealous and wanted to 'mark' his property. I am very ashamed to say that I neglected my ex during much of the time that he was staying with me and pretended to ignore the additional hurt I was causing him. Even during this time we slept together once (which goes to show where my subconcious mind was going).

At the end of the holiday I returned everyone to the airport and cried buckets of tears as they flew the thousands of miles back home. This is about the time that my ex decided I was probably never going to come to my senses.

I finished the second leg of my placement and I was expected to take 2 weeks leave before I started on the third. I decided to return to the east coast to see my family and it was coincidence that my new relationship was having time off at the same time so we decided to go together. The closer the trip became the more I didn't want to introduce him to my family and friends. The machines were all in motion and I didn't know how to tell him I didn't want him to come so I stupidly remained quiet.

My ex had agreed to pick me and the new man up from the airport. How unfair of me was it to ask this? Very!! but he did it anyway as he is the most supportive man I know. I had sent him a text before we disembarked from the aircraft to say that I still expected the massive hug that he always had ready for me even though the new man was in tow. I cried when I saw my ex as I always do when I fly back home. This time it was even more than usual but I didn't know why and I didn't question it. I probably should mention at this stage that when ever my ex and I stayed together we always slept in the same bed and I enjoyed snuggling up to him at night.I had even made it a prerequisite on my new relationship that he accept my friendship with my ex and explained that I would always love him.

As I mentioned it my earlier post the lightning bolt process occurred over about 2 weeks which started just before the new man and I were preparing to fly to the east coast.

My new man was adamant that I was not to sleep in the same bed as my ex (which was probably a fair request given the nature of our relationship but I don't like to be dictated to). My new man was going to the country for a couple of days and I was returning to my home to spend the time with me ex and my grand kids. This is where another revelational lightning bolt struck. Being there with the grandies, in my home which I still loved stirred my heart strings. All 4 of us had a great time and my mind was filled with happy memories. The weather also played a big part. It was winter but the weather was sunny, it was the warmest winter day the area had ever had and the surrounding bush looked spectacular. I saw my cats and they too were meaning more to me than ever. The final lightning bolt was having my ex tell me that he had met a lovely woman but that they were taking it slow. They'd been out quite a few times but still hadn't kissed. He told me how much he enjoyed her company. I was devastated. Regrets, self recriminations and an unbearable sense of loss enveloped me. When my new man arrived back from his few days away he must have thought I'd lost my mind as I was behaving a bit odd.

My new man was now heading off for a couple of days to sort some things out with his now ex-wife. I returned to my home (as had already been planned) extremely upset. Not upset about my new relationship but upset that I was losing the best thing that had ever happened to me. I stayed with my ex for 2 days after which I was due to fly out and meet up with the new man. I told my ex how I felt and he was stunned. He told me that even though he expected it to happen he hadn't expected such a sudden change of heart. I'm sure part of him was thinking that I was just jealous of him starting a new relationship and that I was looking to jeopardise it. This was not true but with my past record it must have seemed only a distinct possibility.

We spent the next 2 days together, me crying and him being very numb. I didn't know what the future held but I just knew how much my heart was breaking and that it was not looking likely that my ex would be taking me back. I was destroyed. I certainly didn't want to continue my trip or my relationship with my new man but my ex was asking for space so I reluctantly agreed to continue with my trip. This is the most regretful thing I have ever done in my life. I should have refused to leave my house but out of respect for my ex and appreciation for all the space he had given me over the past 14 months I boarded the plane. I cried my eyes out for the entire 5 hours of the 2 flights and stopover.

When my new man picked me up he was so excited to see me but I was cold. I still couldn't stop crying and I begged him to give me space to think. I was trying to sort out what was going on in my head and why I had had what seemed to be such a sudden change of heart. He did not give me that space and I eventually confessed that I had slept with my ex but gave no other information. When we had slept together my ex told me how right it felt and yet so wrong. I only saw how right it was. All I wanted at that stage was to move to my third location and be on my own. Unfortunately we had to spend the next 5 days in the car together as we had a very long road trip to make. Needless to say the trip was a disaster. I didn't get the space I needed and my new man was reacting in a way which only further proved to me that I was in the wrong place with the wrong man.

We persevered through the trip but we both knew it was over even before I confessed that I was still in love with my ex and I only had a very faint glimmer of a chance at getting him back. I was texting my ex continually and crying over the phone everyday. To his credit he didn't ever feel any satisfaction that I was hurting so much and he tried very hard to not hurt me even further. He just said he didn't know if we had a chance.

I moved to my third location and finally got to spend some time on my own. During my talks with my ex we discussed about him coming to visit me in 5 or 6 weeks time when his work schedule allowed it. This gave me another glimmer of hope that we could eventually find our way back to each other.

I was unaware that now he had started sleeping with the new interest in his life. According to him she knows very little about me other than that I live on the other side of the country and that I was hurting a lot. I had previously asked him that even though he was still dating this woman that he not take her to our home. He didn't agree but I thought he could see my point. When I first became truly aware that he was now sleeping with her, even after I had bared my soul to him I was gutted. When I also found out in the same conversation that she had slept in my bed and my house I was inconsolable. The glimmer of hope was fading by the minute. He said some pretty cruel things to me that day (some of which I probably deserved). I was unable to go to work, I cried for hours at a time and I felt myself slipping into a depression. I fought it all the way with thoughts of how much my past behaviour had upset him and of things I should have done but nothing helped. I felt betrayed, angry, hurt, disappointed and hopeless - all emotions that my ex had felt over the life of my MLC and I felt I deserved them all.

He is withdrawing from me further each day. He rarely returns my texts or my phone calls but is happy for me to ring him in the middle of the night to wake him up for work. He has admitted that she doesn't know that I do this. If I'm on an early shift I set my alarm just so I can help him get up each day. Often I cannot go back to sleep afterwards. I'm not eating much, I sleeping even less and the depression is getting deeper by the day.

A couple of days ago I told him how difficult it was knowing that she could just reach out a hand and touch him but that I was thousands of miles away and couldn't even see his face and how hard it was for me. I asked him if I could fly back to the east coast and spend a few days with him just so we could talk face-to-face. He agreed but asked why I wanted to do such a thing. I told him how much I wished he had done the same when I was going through my MLC even though I didn't know whether it would have helped or not. I also asked him where he wanted me to stay as I still wanted to give him space. He said he didn't know. I finally asked if I could stay in my home and that I would be happy to stay in the back bedroom just as long as I could talk to him face-to-face. I have booked my flights and I leave on Tuesday.

Today I havn't heard from him so I didn't give him the wake up reminder call assuming that he was staying with her and as much as I hate that he's with her I don't want to jeopordise their relationship. He is ignoring my calls and texts more today than ever and I am very afraid that I have lost him. I know his new relationship is in the rosy and everything is wonderful faze so I know I am facing an uphill battle. I am behaving in a desperate manner but cannot seem to stop myself even though I now it is causing him to pull away even more.

My MLC has cost me my man, my house, my animals and the life I knew. When I left he lost me but still had everything else. If I cannot return to my life I just don't know what I will do. I always promised him that I would never take the house away from him and I fully intend to honour that promise as much as I possibly can. I want to come home to the east coast, I want a new and improved relationship with my man and I just want things back to normal. I despair that he has moved on and cannot see that it is now him who is throwing our history away. Maybe it's his turn to have an MLC. If so I will support him as much as he supported me and weather through as best I can. I just cannot seem to make him understand that we are worth saving. It is now in his hands and I hope that the strength in him that allowed him to be that supportive man will surface again. I love him more today than I have ever partially because I understand the pain I caused him and how well he managed to rise above the loathing he must have felt at times.

Before I sign off I would just like to add that what we do when we are in our MLC is not a sin as some have suggested. We are in the dark and think we are walking in the light but as I have said previously we have absolutely no insight into ourselves, the hurt we are causing or the future.

I look forward to your responses and feel like I have an online support system and that is very important to me in this very difficult time. I'm taking things minute by minute at the moment just to survive.

Sue"

Again, I find her stance on this in line with what I CAN accept in my W without feeling bitterness and resentment as I have the past two days.  Opinions, questions?  Hope this isn't a hijack, Bon!!

[kikki]

I posted this comment on your thread Thundarr, so thought I'd bring this across here to add my two cents worth .........


That was so sad.  Such a large amount of devastation because of her choices.  I guess that happens a lot.  The LBS gives up when/if they meet someone else and despite what 'Sue' says, her turnaround seemed to be driven by the fact that she thought she was losing her husband.

We're all pretty much 'stabbing in the dark here', but I'm hedging my bets that the lack of morals and poor choices and self centredness are about lack of healthy brain function.

We know that the pre-frontal cortex functioning well allows us to see 'cause and effects', amongst other things.
What other parts of the brain would show low level functioning during a MLC?
Thundarr - think you mentioned the Amygdala ??- a primitive part of the brain - as being a possible contender for being affected during this time.  Could explain the base level, animalistic responses that so many of us observe in our MLCers - and  maybe even the R with the OW/OM which seems to be on a very superficial level.


I still wonder - what is the conscience?  I'm sure this is something that is multi faceted and includes spiritual aspects.
As we are unable to make healthy decisions and experience stable and balanced emotions if we have unhealthy brains - my bet is that our consciences can't begin to operate to their highest potential when they can't even operate at the most basic physical level. 
In the same way that an ac unit cannot operate if the basic mechanics are not functioning - I think the basic mechanics are not working in our MLCers brains either.

This of course is caused by many many different reasons - a large implosion all coming together at mid life (as written by RCR).  These reasons do not collectively create a medical condition in themselves, but I believe the deep dark depression that results from all of this, is an illness. 

We know depression changes brain function - this has been proven.  Without healthy brains we cannot have healthy emotions and ways of functioning in the world.  As Letting Go also commented - add to that the effects or cortisol from the stress that they are suffering and the substances that so many of them are suddenly abusing - it's not going to be a pretty mix.  Would still love to see somewhere like the Amen Clinics do a whole series of spect scans on our MLCers to see the similarities.  Perhaps then, it could begin to be recognised as some sort of syndrome?  Until then, we're pretty much on our own.

Do we cast a pointed finger at people who develop other medical conditions? If someone develops, for instance, parkinsons disease, and over time, their ability to function physically degenerates - do we claim that that outcome is sinful? 

Someone with a brain that doesn't function well - will also show symptoms.  What is so hard to stomach here, is that so little is known about it.  Society doesn't support families any more in general, and not enough research is being done. 
Unfortunately, the outcome is often adultery, amongst other very poor choices that are being made by the MLCer. 
My H is not well - I know this for a fact ..........  Yes he is making some appalling choices ........  would he normally make these choices?  Heck no!

Is it easy for me to stomach the outcome of this - his abandonment and adultery amongst other things?  Not at all - but I am more compassionate as I can't reconcile this person with the man I loved for 23 years.  I know he will be horrified one day - this is all too weird. 

It's not all that long ago that we used to keep people that functioned 'differently' locked away.  Brains that function differently from the norm, and the behaviours that came from that, have always challenged us and made us uncomfortable. 

[StandandDeliver]

Hi Thundarr,

Well she has experienced it first hand, so I think her reflections (whilst subjective) are valid. She also sounds as though she is still in the fog tbh. Her H waited and waited and then gave up but she seems to still be in denial about that to an extent. She broke the R - he moved on (he can't be responsible for breaking something that she had already broken!) And now that he is in a R she does seem to be looking to blame EVEN this on him - it is that sort of mindset - the pseudo-self awareness that suggests she is only just emerging from the tunnel. That and the fact that she will not leave her H alone now when it is her own fault that he believed she was gone and he moved on - if she really did not want to jeopardise that new R, she would back off - she left him and he waited and was kind and caring and considerate when frankly she did not deserve it. Maybe he is having his own MLC or maybe he did what all standers must eventually do and that is make a choice to stand FOREVER even if that means forever alone, or just say "I gave it my all for as as long as I could, but now I need to be with someone who is offering me a normal life and relationship without all this confusion and pain and hurt".

Anyway, I do think saying it is "sin" is over simplifying human psychology tbh. Also, maybe it is only religious MLCers who reconcile, but I know of cases where that is simply not the case. I think that when people claim that they are making the mistake that many religious people from a lot of religious persuasions make which is to think that a concept of morality ONLY exists in the minds of believers. I for one have a very deep sense of morality, based on the inherent dignity of human life and on the idea that people can only function in communities and societies if we all share the basic principle of striving to love each other and, at the very least, do no harm to our fellow man. My H also shared these principles before embarking on his MLC, and I believe that one of the struggles all MLCer share (when we see their depression) is that they are wrestling against their own sense of morality - they KNOW they are doing the wrong thing and yet keep doing it. They get into a confused moral space where they equate feeling "happiness" with doing the right thing (i.e. of the affair: if this was so wrong, why does it feel so good? of the marriage: if this was so right, why does it feel so bad?) when the truth is doing the right thing is rarely based on our personal feelings of gratification, doing the right thing is based on our feelings of good that come from looking after those around us - and once we have the well-being that comes from that, then we have actually come closer to finding happiness. Ironically, truly looking after others is something that can only be achieved when we have looked after ourselves properly (i.e. not had someone else fill that role, but instead have looked after ourselves autonomously and truly gotten to know ourselves and accept ourselves).

Finally, that is why I believe that providing we work on ourselves and look after ourselves, our situations may appear worse to others (at first), but in time, we are the ones that develop true contentment because we learn to look after ourselves, we become better at looking after others due to that (btw, looking after, does not mean FIXING, which is a big lesson for LBS's), and we eventually move on to better lives, with or without or MLC partner. ANd if it is with, they have some serious catching up to do if they ever exit the fog and want to be back with us)

[Thundarr]

Great replies from everyone, both here and on my thread!

S & D, I also questioned whether she was completely out or was experiencing withdrawal or depression.  She seems to see what she has lost and that her actions are the cause of her dilemma.  On the other hand, she seems to harbor SOME sense of entitlement that she can still stay at the house even though H and the new woman are both there.  I found it interesting that she still slept in the same bed with her H, and was even intimate with him regardless of her seeing someone else.  She even seemed a bit surprised that her current lover at one time objected to her sleeping in the same bed as her H!!!  I don't know many who would ok their W's to sleep in the same bed with ANYONE of the opposite sex, but she not only seemed to expect it then but doesn't really seem to find it crazy now either.