[Mitzpah]

S&D, As a 'religious' person I find this statement interesting

Anyway, I do think saying it is "sin" is over simplifying human psychology tbh. Also, maybe it is only religious MLCers who reconcile, but I know of cases where that is simply not the case. I think that when people claim that they are making the mistake that many religious people from a lot of religious persuasions make which is to think that a concept of morality ONLY exists in the minds of believers.

There is a verse in the Bible (in Ecclesiastes, I think) that affirms that sun rises  and the sun sets on all...
I believe that my Lord can restore my marriage, in the same way as I (we - h & I) believed He could save my son from a congenital heart defect when he was born and later from cancer.
I, too, struggled with the idea that it was not fair that my son was 'restored' to full health and others were not, was it because of my faith? Why was my faith more 'effective' than others? This laid heavily on my heart for a long while...
Today, while I was in church, at the altar, I was again, pondering these questions and I had a thought come to me - God is in control, whether  we like it, desire it or NOT. He will do whatever He wants. We are the ones who need to align ourselves with His will - The MLCer is fighting this very thing - he/she is trying to do whatever it is they want
I know I am being 'fatalistic' here, but I genuinely believe that God's will cannot be thwarted, so the quicker we submit to Him, the sooner we rest - my personal problem is that I am like a dog with a bone and I find it difficult to let go.
The same way as my son went through his health problems and followed all the protocols, and although the way was fraught with real risks, he came through - miraculously, in the words of the doctors - God provided.
I also have faith that in accepting the process (DGU , we will come through, God will provide, once again.
I do not believe that

only religious MLCers reconcile

because one of the things that they openly reject is their relationship with God - my husband is a poster for this! So they are NOT religious at all.
He does not see what he is doing as a sin (concept long gone from his mind)...

[Thundarr]

Hey Mitz,

I have always felt that a key part of my W choosing to come back will have to do with her regaining her faith. We were both raised strict Catholic and have brought our kids up that way, but she strayed from that path and openly disavowed and even mocked God and our religion.  I think once that starts to come back, her vows will again mean something to her and she will retun to where God wants her to be.

I hope and pray this is correct.

[Mitzpah]

Thundarr

I have always felt that a key part of my W choosing to come back will have to do with her regaining her faith. We were both raised strict Catholic and have brought our kids up that way, but she strayed from that path and openly disavowed and even mocked God and our religion.  I think once that starts to come back, her vows will again mean something to her and she will retun to where God wants her to be.

I hope and pray this is correct.

Amen bro!!!

[Affaircare]

... That said....I have a concern regarding your latest comment.  Is an Agnostic or Aetheist less likely to recover from MLC - if they have no faith in God in which to support and guide him or her?  Because the non-believer does not have "God's power" - is he or she left to struggle alone and, hopefully, recover due to their own will power and strength (virtues that the MLCer severly lacks).

This concerns me.

Not to steal this thread from the OP (original poster) but I hope it's kind of still "on topic"--namely is this bad treatment inevitable?  You specifically ask if an agnostic or an atheist is less likely to recover from MLC--because they have to recover due to their own willpower and strength (which are character qualities that many/most MLCers lack).  It seems pretty reasonable that this would concern you! 

First, I want to tell you what I think "atheist" and "agnostic" mean just to be sure we're on the same page.  "Atheist" would be someone who says there is no god (in very broad terms) and an "agnostic" is someone would says "Who knows?  There is no way we can tell if there is or is not a god because that's unknowable."  Is this close-ish to what you mean too? 

Second, if that is close-ish to what you mean, then here's my thought.  One way or another the CRISIS of midlife crisis gets resolved.  Either the MLCer changes and learns some new coping techniques--or they refuse to change and keep using the old coping techniques.  If they change...sometimes they can come back to the marriage and rebuild something new...and sometimes they change and decide to NOT return to the marriage because their partner won't change.  If they do NOT change (decide to continue in denial for example)...sometimes they choose to come back to the marriage and just put up with it for the kids and find what joy they can in life...and sometimes they build a whole new life that fits with their denial and decide to NOT return to the marriage.  Either way it does resolve the crisis--just maybe not the way we want it resolved.  I think the ideal we hope for is that the MLCer would grow, would change and stop their dysfunction, and would then choose to rebuild and do the right thing--right?  This usually requires that not only the MLCer but also the LBS change!  Thus with all this change going on, you can see where having some tools to make the changes would increase the likelihood of success.

The difference for an atheist or an agnostic in comparison to a Christian would be that I believe God offers a tool to the Christian--namely His power to change and be a new creation, doing "the right thing"--and an atheist or agnostic would not have that tool.  Does that mean that they never recover or never reconcile?  No--obviously I know of atheists and agnostics who DO change and admit they were doing wrong and recover their marriage.  But it's like a person who is working without tools!  Sure they can cut the wood and drive the nail somehow...gradually....but it's a lot harder, more of a struggle, possibly longer and more painful.  Having that saw or hammer gives the person better ability to do the work. 

So does that make sense?  And while we're at it, when I say the word "Christian" I don't mean a person who is "not Jewish" or "not Muslim" or "not Buddhist"--I mean a person whom God has chosen to revive from their life in sin and saved them.  Those folks may or may not "attend a certain church building" and would not be hypocrites because they are changing from the inside.

[Rollercoasterider]

I guess my curiosity is whether they all have an underlying character flaw...perhaps selfishness, immaturity, narcissism, entitlement?  I'm not sure.  I know narcissim has been discussed here before...I just thought I'd throw this out and see what people think.

I think that you are confusing character with behavior. Character flaws, as I see them, are within the depths of a person. Someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder has been that way--you would have noticed unless you were in severe denial.

Is immaturity a characer flaw or relative?

One of the things most people use to determine MLC or not is the degree of personality and/or behavioral changes.

If your MLCer is like your pre-MLC spouse in personality and behavior, what makes you think this is MLC? And if those horrible behaviors were previously present, maybe it is flaws in character--if it is even fair to determine that.

But I think omst of what we think of as character flaws are flaws in behavior and perception.

[Silmarion]

As we are doing the 'quote' thing:

The difference for an atheist or an agnostic in comparison to a Christian would be that I believe God offers a tool to the Christian--namely His power to change and be a new creation, doing "the right thing"--and an atheist or agnostic would not have that tool.

Hope I'm reading the above quote right, but I feel I hold my own 'hammer' and 'wood' and the responsbility lies with me as to how I 'build' with it.  I know I cannot guarantee my h will build his part.

However, at the moment I do not believe bad treatment is inevitable with an MLCer.  Not saying it's good treatment either.   

If I believe it is bad treatment, then it will be and can never be anything else and therefore it will be inevitable.  If that follows...
One thing I do feel - it's personal.  For eg, the postman doesn't get treated the same as me. 
Those who are single do experience MLC (from what I've read) but we are all talking about those in R and in MLC.  The factors are different.  The whole scenario brings up a host of other issues such as childhood, previous R's in life;  for me, I've been doing a lot of  thinking about gender issues and the difference of how my h (and many others' h's I've read on here) exp MLC and how women (speaking for myself here) exp it.  For me, the greatest emotional fear is loss - not just of R but in life. 
Life is not as static as it appeared to be when I was younger.  The true grieving is for my past years and coming to a point where I can accept where I am.  That's inevitable!   (Sorry, realised I went a bit Jungian!!!)

Sil x

[BonBon]

Thundarr,
No need to apologize for the hijack.  You didn't..the conversation is just bobbing and weaving and that's a good thing.

I am a person of faith, my H is an agnostic.  I don't believe this is a demonic influence but I can't say for sure and I certainly am interested in reading what others think.  I DO believe that God is helping me and I have asked God to help my H as well and I believe He will.  I think He has actually.

I believe that MLC is more cultural than religious.  I think our society plays a heavy role in people seeking instant gratification and never allowing for boredom or routine.  Also, I blame society for putting such an emphasis on beauty and youth and so on. 

I also believe it is individual in that some are more likely than others to suffer from a crisis instead of a transition. 

Interestinly, I was speaking with my sister who is much older than me and I asked if she or her husband experienced any type of crisis and she said "No, but I'm sure that is because we are happy".  Well, I was really shocked to hear her simplistic explanation.  I told her H and I were happy too...and then one day he wasn't.  Geesh.

[Dontgiveup]

Adding in my own thoughts....well, more like beliefs.....on MLC and the cultural and religious aspects.  I like the way RCR phrases it in the intro article about the cultural part.  I think the cultural part also helps push the illusion that MLC is caused by aging.

From the article:
Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions.

Regarding the religious aspect......I prefer the term core values.  The crisis becomes a crisis when the behaviors go against the core values that a person has held and demonstrated.

[BonBon]

DGU,
Could not agree more. 

Bon