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Comments by RCR's

Oh absolutely it is about accountability—and that is a good word.
I consider those reasons or excuses to be things I can use to help fuel my understanding in the situation for that individual. With that increase in understanding I may better be able to learn what responses will be beneficial for that individual—responses that would have different results with someone different.

Ok then, if this is absolutely about ACCOUNTABILITY, why do I see so many people afraid to say anything to their MLCer?  Why are people weighing every word out of their mouth, afraid of sending their MLCer scurrying back into their cave?  The only people I am seeing being held accountable are the LBS's who are more then willing to examine their "mistakes", their "actions" throughout their marriage and most of their lives, but I don't see many people HOLDING their MLCer's toes to the fire.  Instead I hear a lot of VALIDATING his/her feelings, his/her thoughts, his/her opinions but their MLCer isn't validating theirs. 

I never kitty footed around with my h RCR even when he was in the deepest part of his crisis.  I wasn't cruel, I wasn't unkind, but I DID NOT VALIDATE his behaviour ever!  Not once.  What he was doing was WRONG... WRONG... WRONG... and I did not let him forget that.  What's more, he knew what he was doing was WRONG and he simply chose to do it anyway. 

I find that there is a lot of EXCUSE sounding language and I honestly feel it doesn't help anybody, the MLCer or the LBSer.  Somehow we all have to be able to live with this.  Our MLCers have to understand that they did something that was reprehensible, that it is not something easily forgiven and will never be forgotten, unless we are unfortunate enough to get Alzheimer's or Dementia. 

I know many people in my other forum who are dealing with a second and in some cases 3rd. infidelity event, with some time in between each affair.  Each time, there has obviously been some sweeping the issues aside, under the carpet no less.  Whatever is happening, they are not RESOLVING their issues. 

Also, it concerns me that these younger men and women going through this "crisis", is far more likely to have a repeat if the issues are not totally examined and dealt with, especially as they are so young and have many more years to get through without another incident. 

What I wonder, do they have a propensity for this, the younger they are when this occurs?  Plus, if the chances are increased, might I ask, who would want to stay and take the chance of going through this again?  Is their a limit to how many chances one gets?

I am all for saving marriages, but one does have to wonder when "enough is enough"! 

hugs Stayed

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Oh, also then, I guess I can assume there are no CAUSES for mid life crisis.  Everything is just an incubator, or a contributor, or symptom of crisis.  Right?

hugs Stayed

[Synicca]

Stayed...

I will tell you why I kitty foot around the truth...I'll be blunt. Because I was told here to ZIP IT.
That it doesnt matter how many times you open your mouth to the MLCer, they dont hear you, so why waste your breath.

That is MY reason....I for one have NEVER been the type to just sit back and not stand up for myself...I may have enabled honey to cheat...but I went through it saying HOW I felt.

SO where is the fine line here?? DO we stand UP for ourselves or Not??

In my very own opinion, I dont believe it has much to do with childhood issues..If I believed that 100% then I didnt learn a damn thing going through PPD...and in this case would mean I'll go through it again. This is my understanding anyway.
I believe we ALL have issues, but I dont completely believe it is based on that fact alone.

So anyway...Thats just my .02

[Freddygone]

I have to agree with Synicca on that point that we are encouraged to either detach or if we address an issue it is not detaching.

My position was that if I spoke up it would make matters worse in the early stages and Monster, so for my own sanity, leave her to it.  Get away and go dark.
I think our approach has to be geared to where we thing the spouse is at in the process.

If they are cake eating, we set a boundary. If they cross it, we let em have it. 

Being caring (as we are) and being a door mat is a fine line. One that if crossed we will pay for, for a long time.

[LifeGoesOn]

Some thoughts I am having as I follow this thread:

On examining causation to excuse  mlc behavior...

Personally, I always examine causation in events in my life. Knowledge and understanding lead to compassion and forgiveness, allowing me to move on, empowered to have boundaries against another occurrence. More than that, the information of cause, always leads me back to me and a particular issue with which I must deal. Examining my MLCer's issues always shines a light on one of my own. (And after 25 years together, they are very closely related)

As much as we, who have been in this for awhile, would like to save those behind us much of the pain, we must allow them their journey. Their journey may be different than ours. We may believe they wallow in victimhood for way too long. It may be they seem too focused on their MLCer's behaviors, or affairs, or stage, or history, etc. We and our journeys are as different as our MLCers are different.  Some are longer, some shorter. Some may get stuck for awhile. The best we can do to support each other is to encourage movement in the journey, validation of our feelings, reality checks, and differing perspectives.

The current discussion is appearing to encourage a dismissal of trauma, a rejection of the journey. To say that my spouse is a bad boy and I will take my toys and play elsewhere until he shapes up would deprive me of the exploration of my marriage, and more importantly, myself. I am sure the result would leave me bitter not better.

I am not looking to excuse my husband or relieve him of responsibility for his behavior.  I know that a time for accountability will arrive. Because those that have gone before me have documented, I know accountability is essential for reconciliation. I do not have time to deal with making him accountable now. I am too busy focusing on my journey and that of my children out of this trauma. I do not have to constantly hold my husband's toes to the fire. He is already ON FIRE. He will not hear me. He already knows what I think and feel about his behavior and has rationalized it away. Showing him anger keeps me feeling angry! However I will never seem agreeable to his behavior. Once he was moaning about our financial distress and suggested that I get a job. I simply stated "I will not get a job to support your philandering." and left the room. Some issues are not as clear. Like holidays. My kids, who daily struggle with his rejection and abandonment, want him included in our holiday plans. I would prefer not to deal with his bizarre, irrational presence, especially in  my home. Do I hold him to his choices and not include him? Allow him to cake eat family time or allow my kids holiday time with their dad? Which perspective is "best"? And then there is "What if he turns down the offer?" or pulls a no-show? or "just puts in an appearance and runs off"? All which leads me back to leaving him to the consequences of his choice to leave. Which direction will I take that will hurt my kids the least? There is often more to the tightrope walk than my or my husband's feelings.


On current culture and society as cause of MLC.

Aspects (symptoms such as infidelity, selfishness, abandonment, abuse, etc) have been around since the dawn of time and are documented in greek and roman mythology, the bible, most literature and historical events. I have spent a lot of time over the years researching my family tree and met many other researchers. We were often amazed at the amount of abandonment that occurred ...going back 300 hundred years. It was much easier to disappear. Hop on a boat to the new world, join the circus, get on a wagon going west. These stories were often explained as a death, only to have the vanisher appear on a public record a few years later either as returned to the family group or in another locale. hmmmm...  Look at life a hundred years ago! During Victorian times, Mistresses, weird sexual escapades, addictions and vices were common, if not expected...as long as they were not publicly displayed and a pretense of an honorable life was maintained. Even then, wives and families were set aside and sent to live in the country house IF it was affordable....Is that preferable to what we have now?

Some thoughts on age

Age ranges for MLC are varied and encompass age 30 to 60. Seems to me, that is most of one's adult life. Do MLCers really want to return to their teenage years? I do not believe so. I believe they do so out of necessity. Their coping skills are failing them and they return to a time where said skills were developed. We all use similar mechanisms. Rationalizations, denial, projections, minimizing, etc.,  help us cope in life. How we use them and to what extent determines our level of mental health. MLCers overuse them to the point they become distorted thinking patterns. Does years lived determine coping failure? I believe not. It is more about the situations the skills developed in, how strong and healthy they are to withstand the current stressors. In addition to developmental issues, there are physical issues, (sex hormone changes, overstimulated stress hormones, other health issues, brain issues, etc), as well as spiritual issues. When all areas are in failure, you will have a crisis.

So my rambling thoughts may not be sensical, but I thank you all for provolking them! 

[LisaLives]

And I think that is all pandering and it comes from a mindset of "standing."  Not that I think standing is wrong, but I think it makes you a stakeholder in the process, but you are not and should not be.  All the "diagnosis" and watching, trying to assess progress through the tunnel is about standing.  Because as you stand, in the back of your head and heart are questions and doubts and so very clearly, frustrations.  Because no matter how much you GAL or detach, a HUGE part of you is waiting for your MLCer to get the f over it.  Am I wrong here? 

It is why I knew I could not stand and why I never really cared much what I said or did--while a part of me accepted all his blame, I really didn't and I will not stand back and validate his feelings--I could have done that BEFORE he decided to replace me, but not after he turned to another person.  I have said it before, I admire people who stand for their marriages but I don't understand it or know how I would manage it.  I am STILL too vested in him and his life, I still care too much and have a hard time letting go, but I feel I am a lot healthier than I would be if I tried to wait it out. 

So much of the talk on the boards is "what if."  He did this, so what if I do that, what if he does this, should I say that?  It is all so tied to the process and there is really no telling.  There are no guarantees, whether you trust the process or not, he might finally make it through the tunnel and get hit by a bus as he is running across the street back to you--and you might never know it.  Life has no agenda, syllabus or prescription.  It doesn't matter which "expert" you turn to, there will always be a different opinion. 

It's interesting reading from my perspective as a non-stander almost two years post-BD.  I realize how much and why I frustrated so many people earlier on with my comments and observations--because I always had a different perspective, but I didn't realize how different and how that might seem threatening.  But I think as the forum gets older and more people grow impatient and question their stands the tone and observations do change.  I still have a great deal of respect for RCR and her mission, and I will be the first one to congratulate each and every case of standers reconciled, and I hope that much is learned from their stands, so that in the future everyone could come out of MLC with an intact M.  But I am not sure that most people have what it takes to stand in a healthy manner as long as it takes. 

This is a fascinating discussion.  Love and light to all, Lisa 

[Mitzpah]

LGO,

Maybe this is a mini hijack.
This jumped out at me:

I am not looking to excuse my husband or relieve him of responsibility for his behavior.  I know that a time for accountability will arrive. Because those that have gone before me have documented, I know accountability is essential for reconciliation. I do not have time to deal with making him accountable now.

Accountability is very important and I too, believe it will come as it says in the Bible (expert writings on MLC too

Let him sit alone in silence,
   for the LORD has laid it on him.
 Let him bury his face in the dust—
   there may yet be hope.
 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
   and let him be filled with disgrace. Lamentations 3:28-30

There will be a time when they face what they have done and they will offer their cheek to one who would strike him = accountability to those whom he/she has abused.

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Lisa Lives comment:

So much of the talk on the boards is "what if."  He did this, so what if I do that, what if he does this, should I say that?  It is all so tied to the process and there is really no telling.  There are no guarantees, whether you trust the process or not, he might finally make it through the tunnel and get hit by a bus as he is running across the street back to you--and you might never know it.  Life has no agenda, syllabus or prescription.  It doesn't matter which "expert" you turn to, there will always be a different opinion. 

Truth is, I didn't have a forum like this to tell me not to push so hard, or not to say this or that.  I am a mother of 5 children, I raised 5 through their teen years and I just was not going to VALIDATE and give my husband a BREAK on his despicable behaviour.  I simply had no idea how to do that. 

I did not yell and scream. I did not demean myself or him for that matter.  That being said, I did not allow him to delude himself about what he was doing, how he was behaving.  He was being a JERK, a mean spirit, smug jerk and when he was like that with me, I got in his face and just like I did with my teenagers, I asked him, "who the hell he thought he was talking to?"  I let him know, just like I did my teenagers, that I would not ALLOW him or anybody else to DISRESPECT me. 

I had no idea whether my h would come out of this, or if he would return if he did manage to find his way through it.  I was just like all the rest of you "heartbroken" but I had done the work and I knew I was going to be ok.  There was lot's more to be done, that I was aware of as well, but I was no longer afraid.  Obviously, that brings "detachment" with it.  Quite frankly, I withdrew from commenting Freddygone and others because I honestly felt I was wasting my breath.  That being said, when he sent me an email or said something totally ASSININE while on the phone, I didn't even attempt to restrain myself.  I couldn't see any point in holding back.

I think everybody starts off cautiously.  At first we are so broken, so hurt, so willing to accept all the fault for our destroyed marriage, we would lick their boots.  Anywhere from 3-6 months after that, then it became a "fair fight".  Learning time for everybody.  Did I want him?  Did he want me? Was it worth the bother? Ahhhhhhhhhh everything, everybody has said here... so said I. 

I was completely in the HEAL THYSELF stage when my h sent me the return ticket.  I should not have come back that easily, but I did.  Thereby the rest is history.  Sometimes, I guess we get lucky!

Hugs Stayed

[StandandDeliver]

I agree with much of RCR's post, but I am not sure I entirely concur with the demography element of this. As an historian by academic background, it is evident in many sources, primary and secondary, that being 49 (for instance) was considered "old" in the past, in a way that it is not deemed to be anymore. If you were a woman you were likely past childrearing age (without HRT) and you may have been through childbirth multiple times, you could easily be a grandparent, you probably had worked much of your life in a manual capacity that wore you out, there were few labour saving devices so most housework was manual, as was agricultural labour and industrial labour. Actually pretty much any type of work was more manual then. This was the case unless you were part of a wealthy elite, which most people were not (partly why we are more obese these days too - we just don't burn energy that we consume anymore). People aged faster, because of the type of life -life was, frankly, HARDER.
 The way we view age in general has been entirely altered in the last 400 or 500 years. Then people were considered "adults" at an age that we now define as "teenage" and were married and sent out to work from 12, 13,14 years old because it was expected that many people would die young, in child birth, from disease (less from war than people think, disease was the biggie).
With the growth of the middle class in teh 19th century, the advent of leisure time as concept and the slow decline in family size, the "cult" of childhood saw an entire redefinition of what childhood is even about and for. Social history is fascinating because if you go back not all that far in history as the nations of Europe and the "new world" industrialised, the whole structure of society from a political level down to family level dramatically changed and partly this was because of the advent of modern medicine, sanitation etc.Birth control, modern medical practices, pharmaceutical and surgical interventions have prolonged life, reduced mortality across the board and increased life expectancy. Infant mortality rates impact that, of course, but even if you take infant mortality out of the equation, it is clear that MORE people are living longer. If you look at the mortality rate for people OVER 65, for instance, you will see a drop throughout the western Europe in the last 100 years, even if you exclude generations lost to war.

One could argue that the fact that people are living longer MAY impact MLC as a factor because for instance, although people are living longer we are also keeping people alive that would simply have died from their ailments in the past - we can slow the progress of diseases like alzheimers, which often leaves younger generations with the burden of seeing a loved one age in a slow and debilitating way for longer. One could argue that we know that more of us are more likely to stay alive longer than our great-grandparents , but that does not mean that we believe that we will stay healthy or whatever. So ageing is not just about death, it is about the prospect of living a long time, possibly with a very reduced quality of life. Getting older is inevitable, we may live longer, but that does not mean that we will be healthy. Is that a factor in MLC? I just don't know.

It is late here and I am tired, so I am sorry if what i am saying is not clear.

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Actually S&D, as usual it was very clear.  I was thinking much like you.  I am a history lover.  The changes I have seen even in my lifetime are substantial, so the changes in the last 100 years or more... incredible.

I too was wondering about the witnessing from as early an age as we can remember, watching old people struggle.  Most throughout my lifetime did not age particularly graciously.  Most were robbed of their strength and vitality by illness.  It wasn't pretty. 

I just find it hard to believe that aging would not be a possible cause, as it is certainly something that we have been witnessing from our earliest ages.  Believe it or not, I can still hear my grandmother's scream of pain and agony when she fell down the basement stairs, shattering her right arm and shoulder.  I was only 3 years old.  Believe me, it has had a huge impact on me, as I always feel like I am being SUCKED down stairs. 

I then watched my very capable grandmother become completely dependent on my mother.  Her arm was never the same and as adaptable a woman as she was, she was never able to dress herself without help again.  This was a very proud lady and believe me, having to have our help to do the simplest thing such as doing up her bra, was utterly humiliating to her. 

I can understand a person being afraid of ageing.  Thanks for your comment S&D, I found your comments thought provoking.

hugs Stayed