[OldPilot]

Interesting thread.

I do not think you can dismiss what affaircair is saying.

but the reason you work on yourself is because of the small percentage of what an MLC'er says that really is true.  You work on yourself to stop thinking of your spouse as an extension of you and view them as an entirely separate and equal individual who may well be 100% DIFFERENT than you--and to stop treating someone you say you love with the cold shoulder, fighting and blaming of your own.

This part right here strikes me as a very true statement.

I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter, they know us so well that nothing can be snuck by them.
I am sure that we all have faults, maybe it is not about liking Britney Spears but something else, that this triggers in them.
Looking for the things we can FIX in our selves is important in our own growth and journeys.
If we are just going to run away and get a new relationship or blame our MLC'er for the demise of our marriage then I agree we are no better than them.

I understand what everyone else is writing here but maybe what AC is saying is that we need to look deeper.
I know that I do, I know that as much as jumping into another relationship would make me FEEL better, that I am not ready, I am not sure that I KNOW what issues I need to look at, but I am sure that I must have some.

I know that even if this marriage has failed that I do not want to be part of the statistics of 75% failed second marriages.
I am not sure that I picked poorly with my wife.  But I would be hesistant to find someone that is her complete opposite.
I will never find someone that is the mother of my adult children. ( and that is a biggie for me), so there are things to work on.

What they are, well maybe that is why we are all here, to help each other figure out what WE need to work on.
I know one thing is for sure  I have TIME to do it.

[offmyrocker]

I would like to clarify some things here...

I think what AC is saying here really applies to the LBS who is a lot further in the process.... For me, i am 20 months in. I am talking with my h about reconciling. I have realized that at this time... He may have had some valid gripes. Just about everything that came out of his mouth around BD was a load of crap... We shouldn't take those things and blame ourselves for why they went into MLC... Our how we caused it... Because we didn't in any way shape or form. Back then i also would have turned the world upside down trying to change myself to fix everything so that he would stay. No matter what i did or didn't do... It still would have happened.

But now that i am at a very different place with my h... I do see why he might have felt unloved. There are reasons that he had some of those feelings... Were they enough to give him justification for what he did? No way! While i was on my journey... And really only recently... I have realized that i could have done some things better... And those are the things that i need to be aware of doing differently if we are going to restore our marriage. I can only take responsibility for me. And i will not take any responsibility for his destructive choices. That's completely his....

Where we are at right now (my h and i)... I think is the time to consider what AC has talked about to help move the relationship forward... I can see things very differently now.

OMR

[NewBeginnings]

Thundarr~ I totally agree with you.  I have read a ton of articles on MLC and they all say it has nothing to do with you.  The MLCer is in a crisis and it is all about them.  Depression and childhood issues.  I know my H was depressed since around 2006.  Not where he couldn't work or function but just dead eyes, dead acting.  Ironically, I was on the phone with my father yesterday and he said to me
that he and my mother where going through some old family pictures.  Then he said, I have to tell you, H doesn't look good in the last few years compared to earlier years and you can clearly see it.  I said what to you mean?  He said, his eyes look DEAD.  It is very
obvious in each picture.  I was kind of in shock for my parents to see this in him.  I have never mentioned to them dead eyes, just that he had been depressed.

I feel I had nothing to do with the breakdown of our marriage either.  My H has some serious issues about his childhood.  He was abandoned many times by his father.  His father had  problems with depression and alcohol.   He was verbally abusive to my H
and a few times physically abusive.  My H does not know how to love.  I have also realized over the last several years that he doesn't even know how to be a Dad.  He treats our son like a friend.  He never backed my up with disipline.  He treated our son as an equal.  I used to tell my H that he has to stop it and to start acting like a dad, not a friend.   I told him we are going to have problems with S if
you don't change the way you handle him.  Well I am now having those problems and am left alone to deal with him and it's hard.
I honestly don't blame my H for any of this because it all has to do with his childhood.  I just finished reading a book on male depression and in that book and some others it talks about these men who are conflict avoiders which my H is and how they do not
know how to love.  In Surprised by Love by Dr. Jay, he said the same thing.  He didn't know how to love.  His story is almost identical to mine and my H's.  I felt like I was reading a book written about me and my H. 

I just know I love my H dearly, I want him to wake up some day and come home but not before he looks at himself and realizes he has
some real issues with himself.  I know he will never be happy with anyone because he can't.  He doesn't know how to be happy.  He looked to me to make him happy and now I suppose he is expecting OW to make him happy.  That was impossible because he has to make himself happy, not depend on me or anyone else to do that for him.
I did everything for my H.  I waited on him, gave him surprise birthday parties, always made his favorite homeade meals, did absolutely everything around the house.  I did all this because I loved him and he worked so hard to provide for us that I felt that was my part and I wanted to make his life easier.    I can honestly say there was nothing else I could have done for him.  Which just showed me the issues are within himself.
Everything was always me me me with him and still is.  Even now if I talk to him, he never asks how I am but he starts talking about himself or his job.   He needs constant praise.  So now I'm sure OW is doing that for him.  These last few years he shut me out.  I used to try and get him to talk and he wouldn't.  No matter how hard I tried to please him or try and get him to open up and talk to me, he wouldn't.  Just once last Oct. he said he felt dead inside, numb and thats all he would say.   He never gave us a chance. He was just gone one day.   And that I find so unfair.  I just wish he could of let himself open up to me.  But he didn't.  He found a OW to do that with.  OW validates him, makes him feel like a King.  I wonder is she is seeing yet that everything is all me me me with him.     I believe he had it in his head he wanted an affair, that infatuation feeling again to make himself feel better.  Sure it worked for a while but I know he is  still not happy.  At first I think he was very happy, especially when the affair was a big secret.  Now that they have been together for 14 months, I believe the relationship is settling down, becoming just an ordinary relationship.  He will have the same issues with her as he did with me because it's not about us, it's him. 

So Thundarr, again, I totally agree with you 100%.   

NB

[honour]

I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter,

An MLCer is anything but a truth meter. My W changed from someone who was honest and trustworthy to someone who lied without conscience at all. It was horrifying to witness someone so wonderful breakdown in that way.

You are fond of saying believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do.

A characteristic of MLC is lies and deception.

honour

[OldPilot]

I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter,

An MLCer is anything but a truth meter. My W changed from someone who was honest and trustworthy to someone who lied without conscience at all. It was horrifying to witness someone so wonderful breakdown in that way.

You are fond of saying believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do.

A characteristic of MLC is lies and deception.

honour

Yes honor I do say that however what MLC'er say do have elements of truth in it.
So the tricky part is to sort through that and figure out what is really true and what is not.

The only part that matters is for us helping OURSELVES, to use the knowledge that we gain here to make changes for US, not to win them back.
I know that it is important that we change, that we become the opposite.

HB wrote this in one of the  sermons, I would suggest we all re-read it.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6.msg392#msg392

[StandandDeliver]

I know that even if this marriage has failed that I do not want to be part of the statistics of 75% failed second marriages.
I am not sure that I picked poorly with my wife.  But I would be hesistant to find someone that is her complete opposite.
I will never find someone that is the mother of my adult children. ( and that is a biggie for me), so there are things to work on.

OP - I actually agree with you (I don't know if your post was referring to some of my points, but I will respond because what you have said is relavent to my sitch). I have very little intention of marrying again and certainly not in a big hurry. I know that I did not pick poorly with my H - when he was a good husband he was the best and I told everyone (even during his early crisis, before BD, I remember telling friends what a great guy and Dad he was, even as I was experiencing some problems with him.) I also don't think he picked poorly with me. For many years we were best friends and confidantes. But issues started to arise with H thatwere not relevant and would never have been apparent until we had children of our own, that made our relationship more difficult - could I have responded differently? Yes. Did I know how to deal with someone who had deep insecurities going back to childhood that surfaced once we had children, particularly when our daughter was born (a re-enactment of the birth of his sister?). No, I didn't. And I was not even clear that this was such a big issues. I was aware that there were issues relating to his mother (so my transformation from lover to mother was VERY hard for him to deal with - I never anticipated the change being so dramatic in him).
I am not looking for someone who is my H's opposite anymore than I am looking for a pre-MLC replica in another man. The qualities I discussed in the man I am seeing that are different to my H, simply serve to HIGHLIGHT to me some of the growing up H still needs to do. He may get there some day, but he wants to do it without me. That is his choice and his right. But in the meantime I have found a friendship with a man who is older and has clearly spent some time thinking about the nature of life and love in a way that I am not sure that H ever has. In anycase, I do not actually spend time comparing them, other than noting these things. I just enjoy his company, find him interesting and quite sage about life. No other man will ever be the father of my children, and that is sad. I would have liked our children to grow up with both parents together, supporting each other. That has always been important to me. My S is having huge problems adjusting, but I can't tell him that it will be alright because I don't know for sure that H will ever come back. So we all need to just accept it is over, and I will not bring a new man into my children's life for a long time. My H did not do our children that courtesy - as those who know my story are aware, my children have been spending weekends and holidays with H and OW in their tiny apartment since about a month after OW and H moved in together. Living where I do, there is nothing I could do to stop that.

I was aware when I decided to be honest about my decisions on here, that it was not in line with the advice on here. But, I live a long way from my own family and my friends, I operate every day in a language that is not my mother tongue. I come home from work to 2 small and very demanding children. It may be a personal failing, but someone came into my life who offers kindness, adult company friendship and affection. We are not planning a marriage, we are just enjoying each others company and getting to know each other. It may not work out. But, at the risk of soundling MLCy myself, I too only have one life and I am a human/social animal. I don't NEED to be in a relationship, but I certainly like not having to be alone all the time.

[Thundarr]

OP,

Your points are valid, but I think you may be taking this discussion in a 3rd direction rather than clarifying what has already been said.

The title of this thread IS misleading, and I don't recall seeing anything disputing that.  The first post seemed to indicate that the marriages that have either ended or are in danger were the result of both parties rather than MLC, and I for one took exception to that.  No one on here claims to be Jesus reborn and as such do not claim to be perfect in any way, but those who have chimed in take accountability for their own imperfections but also state that their imperfections were not valid grounds for the MLCer abandoning them and their children.  Your first post alluded to your personal belief that you were somehow responsible for your marriage breaking down, and not knowing you or your sitch personally I cannot disagree on that as I know you have analyzed it overmuch.  But, I believe your logic is flawed if the attempt is made to apply it to all or even most situations.  As Bon mentioned, the statements made were blanket statements that could easily be interpreted to impart blame on the LBS for the drastic actions the MLCer took.  That would be by nature a fallacious statement, as you yourself have stated several times that we are responsible for our own actions and so are they.  They day the MLCer CHOSE to walk out on the marriage and the family without making any reasonable attempt to work on or improve things, they automatically assumed full ownership for the marriage and family breaking down.

In my case, where my W has stopped parenting and makes the kids aware that they are a distant second priority to her new friends, would you also assign partial responsibility to them?  Was my S6 asking to have a story read to him every night sufficient reason for my W to go days or even weeks without seeing or talking to him?  Was my D10's desire and need to have help with her homework ample grounds for being told "I hate you" by her mother?  Was their daily need to be fed, clothed and sheltered unreasonable in a way that would justify their mother walking out on them? HELL NO!!!

Your assertion that we need to work on ourselves to get back to being healthy is not a counter-point to what has been written, but rather a common-sense given in any traumatic situation.  OF COURSE we need to climb back to a healthy state of mind and body.  That's true not only if our spouse suddenly goes into MLC and walks out on us or if our home suddenly burns down.  Also, if we lose our job due to budget cuts, our someone close to us dies or is diagnosed with a serious illness.  We have to heal one way or another and our bodies and minds are programmed to do that anyway. 

And, as far as the statement "we must become the opposite," that should not be construed as becoming the opposite of who we truly are or were.  If the only way we can get our spouse back is to totally quit being who we are and change our nature while dropping our values and convictions then I quit right now.  THEY'VE ALREADY TRIED THAT AND IT DIDN'T EXACTLY WORK OUT FOR THEM! 

Great debate on here, and even though I disagree with OP in this case I highly respect his input and opinions (he already knows that).  Since there is either so much misinterpreted or even mis-information floating around here maybe someone should come up with a compendium of what is KNOWN about MLC and publish them where we could all reference them.  RCR could do that and she could call them Articles or something.  And then someone like DGU could reference them to point out when we are getting off-track or misinterpreting (oh, wait........).

[justasking]

If the only way we can get our spouse back is to totally quit being who we are and change our nature while dropping our values and convictions then I quit right now.

IMO it's not about completely changing to someone else. When my H left with his reasons and justifications I stood and looked at him in shock and recognised some home truths in what he said. They were like darts through my heart. Throughout the past 2 years I have had the time and space to look at the issues raised and decided that I had lost the real me being a wife and mother but I wasn't JA anymore. So my journey is about rediscovering myself and getting to know me again.

The person I am now is the person my H met and fell in love with.

IMO life molds us into people we need to be i.e mothers, fathers and spouses. These roles impact on us as individuals and I believe those roles change me for someone I didn't know. I realise every one will come back and wonder how I could let that happen. Well I did and my H  MLC woke me up as well. I was unhappy in our marriage in the last few years before BD as H withdrew and we grew apart but I now know that I didn't know how to address this. We were both in a rut and stuck.

Now I don't condone my H behaviour nor his affair. But God willing if we are able to reconcile, my H will see a different person he left and more like the person he married. I am hopeful that my H learns what he needs too to enable us both to be the people we want to be for our future lives together.

xx

[kikki]

Throughout the past 2 years I have had the time and space to look at the issues raised and decided that I had lost the real me being a wife and mother but I wasn't JA anymore. So my journey is about rediscovering myself and getting to know me again.

The person I am now is the person my H met and fell in love with.

I am hopeful that my H learns what he needs too to enable us both to be the people we want to be for our future lives together.

JA - this is exactly how I feel too.  I have been able to rediscover me. 

[StandandDeliver]

JA

IMO life molds us into people we need to be i.e mothers, fathers and spouses. These roles impact on us as individuals and I believe those roles change me for someone I didn't know.

I agree that it is easy to get lost in these roles, but tbh, those roles are supposed to change us! There are things about being a mother that made me a better person than I was before. I think you are right that getting subsumed by those roles can make us lose our identity and we sometimes let that happen. On the otherhand (and this is where my analysing is clearly not completed yet), part of me wonders if I would have been less subsumed in the role of motherhood if H was not simultaneously rejecting his role as a responsible and committed father and parenting PARTNER to me? I mean SOMEONE HAD TO BE THE RESPONSIBLE ONE! And it was hard for me to get back to being fun, silly, sarcastic, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants S&D while H was in the process of mentally leaving me to be the only grown up in our marriage. So, it was not his fault, but the crisis behaviour in our partners did not help me have a sense that I could just "let go" and "relax". Because no-one was offering to step in and run the house, feed the kids, help with homework, listen to their problems, walk the dog, mow the lawn, fix the light, take out the rubbish, pay the bills, do the school run etc etc. Just a thought...