[LisaLives]

There You go:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074477/

This article supports exactly what I said.  It is a very thorough literature review of the LACK of diagnostics for PD in midlife and beyond.  Most of our psychology is based on college-age women--the data, the diagnostics...  What this article says is that it isn't even possible to place someone on the PD spectrum after young adulthood because the indicators do not match the lifestyle of someone middle-aged, and definitely not someone elderly.  The example of the narc 90yo is classic.  But yet she does not meet the DSM classification because she is not an adolescent.  Read it again, it talks about how the dysfunctions and life disturbances associated with PDs are VERY evident for older people, but the diagnosis is not made.  It is not that they don't exist, but that we no longer acknowledge them.  It is like depression in men, as Real and others discuss, men do not fit the DSM description of depressed, so we overlook it, and call it "being male." 

[Dji76]

Agree w Lisa 100%. Stress and poor coping mechanisms bring to the surface what was always just beneath. I don't think ALL MLC is pd driven. I do believe my xw fits the pd mold. Not just from what I've seen since bd... Understanding pd makes sense of the last 19 years of my life. It was always there in her... Stress of mlc or whatever this brought it to the forefront for her.

[osb]

It's a fascinating topic. Should put in my two bits, just an observation. While my H had a family history of PD (MIL and FIL, quite definitely narc and co-dependent passive aggressive, great 2-for-1 combo), i think that simply became a learned coping mechanism in time of greatest stress. After BD it looked like he'd suddenly acquired NPD (I was wondering what the hell did I miss, in 18 years of marriage??! And I'm a doc, used to work as a counsellor! was I blind?!). But now as some years later H slowly emerges, I don't see the narc diagnosis in him anymore. Which means it wasn't really a PD. It was MLC masquerading as a PD. Dissipating as the MLC dissipates. Guess I wasn't blind, just unlucky.

[LisaLives]

osb, great observation.  I too wonder what exH will be like on the other side.  I read an article once that said, in short that MLC is a "narcissistic temper tantrum" and while not all MLCers are or will be narcs before or after the crisis, they sure are while in it.  My exH was the same way, PD can be learned dysfunction that gets internalized.  We all have some maladaptive coping mechanisms, none of us are completely mentally healthy and whole.  But I think some people in MLC go "all the way" and never come back, and others simply slide into a period of serious maladjustment.  I do agree that MLC is a phase, but I do not believe that everyone survives it and comes out better--I know too many men IRL who did not--too many...  It's like cancer, with all it's varied outcomes... 

And let's be real here, psychology is NOT science, and never will be.  There will never be a day when you can walk into a doctor's office, take a blood test and get a diagnosis and prescription for your BPD.  There are so many factors, so many variables and too many unknowns when dealing with people--the bottom line of which is in order to get better, no matter what ails you, you have to WANT to, and a lot of people really don't, and there is no curing that with science or medicine.  Not until we all become machines--Pretties is possible, but not a good thing.  Love and light, ll

[Thunder]

I'm curious to know how much hormones play into this.  If a man has low T a lot of what I've read says....disorieted, confused, low self-imagine, etc.  A feeling of not being well, metally.

Any thoughts?

[barbiedoll]

When my husband returned.. he ended up in hospital. He came to me in panic, grief and shock and kept saying " look what I have done , look what I have done.. you have to help me , please help me ". He was having a heart attack ( i thought ) and was on his knees holding his chest in the snow. In hospital ( and several more hospital visits ) he agreed to every test under the sun. His testosterone levels were normal. Hormone testing is a little harder to do as they can fluctuate dramatically from morning to night . The doctor took him off cholesterol medication. He said there is a very very small number of people that have experienced severe agression and personality changes on that medication. The doctor ran every possible test that might be contributing to his behavior . What they did find inadvertantly ...kidney cancer. My husband will undergo surgery on the 25th . Some people say.. " maybe that was affecting his brain!!". How would we ever know .

[MsT]

I'm curious to know how much hormones play into this.  If a man has low T a lot of what I've read says....disorieted, confused, low self-imagine, etc.  A feeling of not being well, metally.

Any thoughts?

This gave me pause to think as we have a 2 year old daughter that is his first biological child. I have read that men have a natural response to this event with a natural drop in testosterone. I don't know if I can fit it in the timeline, though. Maybe it's all part of the perfect storm conditions.

[LisaLives]

There is a lot of talk lately about low T and supplements, etc.  BUT, we have always known that T decreases in men as they age, as estrogen does in women.  There is a great book called Crossing Paths that talks about how MLC is not so much about the age of the person, but the age of the children and the paths of the spouse.  They kind of argue that danger occurs when the paths cross at the same time.  Men become more like women and women become more like men at a certain point in life.  Men with lower T look around them at all the time they spent at work and their families and are afraid they are missing something, their response is "is this all there is?".  Women look around at all they have taken care of and see all they have accomplished and say "wow, look at all there is!"  And that change in perspective is dangerous, especially for men who see their wives bloom. 

And then, parents see themselves in their kids, they see their traumas, their fears, their family dysfunctions and relive them in mirror.  So, when a now unstable parent, crossing paths with a spouse looks at their same sex oldest child and sees a point in their lives that rocked them (parents' divorce, turbulent adolescence, loss of a loved one), they get sent in a tailspin.  And it was so strange that I read this book right when our oldest son was the age of his father when his own father went on an alcoholic binge, had an affair with the secretary and almost left his mother.  BD was about 2 years later for me... 

And consider this about diagnosing PD:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-our-way/201502/personality-disorders-explained-what-they-are

[Thunder]

Barbie the article I read said it is very hard to check their testosterone levels for two reasons.  One, like you said they go up and down during the day but also because the normal test levels they look at are so wide they can look normal but it may not be normal for them.   If that makes any sense.

I wish I had saved the article because it tells you what they should be testing.  It's a specific test for them and shows more detail.  I'll have to see if I can find that thing.

I'm not saying your H had low T, he maybe didn't but the tests are not very accurate.

I know my X's hormones were off when I saw him having hot flashes.  True...hot flashes.
He doesn't have them anymore but he did for about a year or 2 after BD.  If he had them before that time I couldn't tell you.

[Slow Fade]

 

Men with lower T look around them at all the time they spent at work and their families and are afraid they are missing something, their response is "is this all there is?".  Women look around at all they have taken care of and see all they have accomplished and say "wow, look at all there is!"  And that change in perspective is dangerous, especially for men who see their wives bloom. 

Wow you just described my H! I was on the rise in my career, bosses singing my praises, moving on to a more prestigious company, and H's dream job had just fallen apart.

And then, parents see themselves in their kids, they see their traumas, their fears, their family dysfunctions and relive them in mirror.  So, when a now unstable parent, crossing paths with a spouse looks at their same sex oldest child and sees a point in their lives that rocked them (parents' divorce, turbulent adolescence, loss of a loved one), they get sent in a tailspin. 

Bingo, this happened when S was 7. I don't know if something happened in H's life at this time but he says he can't remember his childhood. I find that extremely odd......but no one is talking. BD was two years later as well!