[Tsunami]

Wonderful thought process Cali, but wait until Thundaar sees this thread. 

He will tell you counselors don't know Jack about MLC!

[Dontgiveup]

From Ez
"So my question is how do you know when they are ready to hear it and by whom?"

The MLCer will typically initiate.  Often over a few year period, the Touch and Goes may move along the communication spectrum toward Reconnection.

From RCR's article on Reconnection
"What you are doing when you participate in discussions--which he has been initiating--is encouraging."

[TrustingMyHP]

T,

I share your frustration about not being able to talk to our MLCers about what's going on and especially about the work that's been done by serious people (analysts, psychologists) on the topic of MLC. 

Before all this started, my H was such a reasonable man, loved to talk about ideas.  But I'm confident the things everyone's posted here are true:  our MLCers are not in any kind of mental state to "hear" about what's going on within them.

In the 2-3 years leading up to BD, my H became very interested in the writings of Joseph Campbell (The Hero With a Thousand Faces among other books.)  My H became convinced he's taking the hero's journey as Campbell describes (which is true, of course) and he's also convinced his relationship with OW is part of that journey, that he was "compelled" by "the gods" to leave his family and be with OW forever, that she's integral to the new life he's being led to live by his destiny.

There's truth in what's he's feeling, of course.  Sorting out the truth from the fiction is the trick and he's just not capable of doing that at this point.  He's too wrapped up in avoiding the accompanying depression of his journey, by being in replay of which OW is such a major part, that he can't see the forest for the trees.

So it's interesting that my H gets the "journey" part but, at the same time, has to deny and run in order to do the journey part. 

(As I write this I realize I'm defining and justifying "the process"!) 

Someday, someday they'll understand.

TMHP

[HeartsBlessing]

So my question is how do you know when they are ready to hear it and by whom?

You DON'T know, and most will NEVER acknowledge they have or have had a problem; and some that MIGHT admit it for a short period of time; may pay it lip service; but in their hearts they may STILL not believe it; and only agree outwardly just to appease their spouses.

You NEVER KNOW...best to leave that aspect alone and concentrate on yourselves; allowing them the space and time to work on themselves; and they will come to you when they choose to, and not before.

Assuming they get this far, they will tell you at a later time what they were facing, but they will NOT usually say they had a "MLC"...they will tell you things they DID; but NOT what the LBS KNOWS they went through...yet, THIS aspect doesn't come until LATER in the crisis when they are getting ready to RECOMMIT to the marriage they abandoned.

Once finished; it doesn't make that much of a difference; the crisis itself is forgotten in time by both people; once finished and navigated through by the vast majority of MLC'ers; that usually means the issues, etc. brought about are resolved and finished....and life going forward is enjoyed MORE than ever before, and it should be.

Unless people are open to the fact they need help; you cannot force them to take it.  Such as it is for the MLC'er who is deep within the tunnel.

According to them, there is NOTHING wrong with them; and everything is wrong with the LBS; who, in their eyes is at fault for the mess the MLC'er is in.  They are looking to outside sources to blame instead of looking within.

It's very similar to insane people who think THEY are sane, and everyone else is the one who's nuts, CERTAINLY NOT THEM.

Besides that, the LBS to them, is not only in their minds the "cause" of their troubles, but ALSO someone who is trying to control and "fix" them; and since their journey is their own, and not anyone else's; any attempt to try and help them results in causing them to run farther away.

They DON'T WANT HELP; and don't want to be interfered with; and as your journey continues along; you do realize you cannot help them; they have to want help in order to get help.

If you keep trying discuss MLC with them; this will be construed as CONTROL; and you'll only get MORE spew, more denial; more hurtful things are said; and you persist, it can spell the END of your legal marriage; because all you'll do is literally alienate them further.

UNTIL they are READY and OPEN to what's happening to them; you'll get more of the same behavior from them.

MLC continues to be an emotional and spiritual battle fought on such a battlefield that  NO ONE can win this battle except the person going through it....nothing that's said/done will convince them otherwise.

Even once the crisis is completely resolved; there is no indication from a MLC'er that what they went through was a crisis of a sort; you only see the changes that the resolution brings into evidence within them; and this is ONLY IF they allow the process to work on them......there were small indications from my husband during that time that "something was wrong; I'm confused"...but to introduce this concept suggested that something was wrong with him; he was "flawed"...and nothing I said convinced him otherwise.

I used to think it was important to try and get him to understand; but I found later it wasn't as important as I thought it was...it was important that I did my part of my journey; and gave him the space and time to finish his.

It really does NOT matter if they know or not what they faced...as long as the changes/growth/becoming is made; and you'll know at each stage if these are made, or if they will cycle through various aspects.

What was also important for me was that I KNEW what was going on, EVEN if he didn't; and I knew that whatever I did affected the outcome of the crisis in a positive OR a negative way.   I saw a little bit of both aspects while I was navigating with him.

It's not always important they know; regardless of what you may think.   It doesn't make this go any faster; NOR does it make it any easier; as the process MUST be navigated in full, regardless of who knows what.

Again, what really matters in the end is what they do to RESOLVE the crisis for themselves; and you find you're still together; regardless of what's happened; and regardless of the separate journeys the two of you are on that teaches the two of you so much about yourselves.

There is always that possibility the MLC'er could always walk away; but that's a possibility; even the LBS could exercise, too.

Don't think that trying to make them 'see' what is wrong is going to help; most of the time, it will actually hurt your chances of coming together later on to get to the process of rebuilding a new marriage.

That's why letting go, letting God, and taking the time to figure out yourself is so important; there's NOT ONE THING you can do to make this go any faster than it will for each individual person going through this.

You would NOT want someone pressuring YOU if you really and truly THOUGHT NOTHING was wrong with you, would you?   This is HOW the MLC'er sees your intentions when you start insisting you know what they are going through....as PRESSURE, CONTROL, FIXING, and they feel they are being "forced" into something they don't think applies to them.

Call it denial or whatever you choose; but you think about it; until you saw it for what it was; YOU didn't believe it either in the early days before you finally realized what this crisis was all about.

It's all about perception; and you might try walking in their shoes sometime; how would YOU feel?

I didn't know the HALF of it, until I actually DID walk in his shoes at a later time; not the way he did it, but the way I did it.   I backed him down more than once as he tried to pressure me into returning to the person he knew; he would always ask me how long this would last, and I didn't know...yet, within a few days, he would be at it again.

Now, I got some help as I needed it; but most of the time I needed to be left alone to process, and my husband gave me a great deal of trouble with this...and the more he pressured me, the more I backed away; and the LONGER my journey took while I was in Transition...he was interrupting me constantly; that much I do remember..he was AFRAID that I wouldn't come through; not realizing that his interference was causing me a whole lot MORE problems.

My husband was literally sucked into what I was going through; and I knew he didn't understand; yet, he was NOT willing to give me the space and time I needed to process this through.

I HATED him for constantly pestering me; this gave me insight on how he felt toward me, when the shoe was on the other foot.

It is definitely Denial on one or both parts; but this comes in different aspects on BOTH sides.

This is a question I've answered before many times.  I've seen what happens with my own eyes when I thought I was trying to help him; and he ran away from the truth of what was happening.  I learned later that it was his state of mind that rejected the thought that something was wrong with him.

It was up to HIM, not ME to figure this out, and resolve HIS problem.  I had my hands full with my own problems; I learned to just let him go; and learn to deal with myself.

You really need to do the same. 

Food for thought.

[Buggy31]

Because part of the reason they are in MLC is that they are avoiding that very issue....they are avoiding the issue that is surfacing to heal through emotional pain.   On top of all this...in their avoidance...and denial they are blaming the spouse...so they think whatever is wrong is related to us..so for us to tell them something is wrong only makes them avoid...avoid..justify and avoid.  They must recognize that something is wrong within them..not us.  It's so hard to understand but we must fully let them go to figure this out on their own to gain their individual emotional understanding of themselves...this is how it has to be...HUGS
BUGS

[Ez]

Thank you HeartsBlessing.  You can't even imagine how much i needed to hear so much of what you said.  For days and days now I've been struggling with the need to "fix" things, I've had the "what if's".  What if i did this or what if i said that.  I want so badly to be able to actively do something rather than sit back and feel like I'm doing nothing.  I know the theory, I know he wont hear and see things like i do but the frustration and passion within me wants to fight the fight and not feel like I'm passively sitting back waiting.  I'm obviously still learning the rule of Patience and your post spoke volumes to me about the need for patience.  I pride myself on putting myself in his shoes and walking his walk but I think I do it in a way to figure out what I can do to help instead of just accepting and understanding the process.  I definitely over think and over analyse things.

Fear is my greatest enemy, the fear of worst case scenario. 

H doesn't engage in any conversation with me which is hard because talking was one of things we used to do so well.  I feel like he is scarred of what i might say or that what i might say is the truth and that hurts too much.  I can only hope that when he does come to me to talk I can learn from your words HB and say the right things.

Until then I wait,

Thank you again,

Ez xx

[NoRegrets]

Wonderful thought process Cali, but wait until Thundaar sees this thread. 

He will tell you counselors don't know Jack about MLC!

I won't argue--my H sought counseling from a therapist after he'd started his affair. I think he felt guilty, and he wanted someone to help him decide what to do--stay with his wife, or follow his infatuation. She told him that "you can leave your wife without leaving your children." She did not see MLC. She gave him bad advice, not that it matters. Had she told him to stay with me, he would have ignored her. He got help from the OW in making the decision. She pulled him down the rabbit hole--well, truly, he went willingly, and I wasn't willing to go with them. I made him choose, and he chose.

In fact, MLC is not a medical diagnosis, if I'm not mistaken.

I think RCR deserves an honorary degree for her thesis work here, but the psych community would never have it. 

I think there may be a few therapists out there who can help MLC'ers unscramble their brains, anyway, but I'm seriously skeptical of the skills of many of them. (Most of them!) 

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello EZ, 

I want so badly to be able to actively do something rather than sit back and feel like I'm doing nothing.  I know the theory, I know he wont hear and see things like i do but the frustration and passion within me wants to fight the fight and not feel like I'm passively sitting back waiting.

Waiting, Standing, and doing NOTHING are active things you CAN do; not to mention the journey you need to walk for yourself.

Just because you're doing these things do NOT mean you aren't doing anything...it's starts out as a type of "helpless" aspect to KNOW you can do NOTHING for your MLC spouse, except allow them to be who they are whilst they are within their journey that is heading toward wholeness and healing at a later time.

Yeah, you do want to "fix" and "help" and you want your life 'back' to what it was before...and this won't happen; assuming he does what he's set to do, EZ...CHANGE has begun within your lives; and it was put into motion WHEN you were made aware something was VERY wrong...and life as you once knew it, is finished, over, done, and the marriage is now dead, burned to the ground, gone.

Your spouse is in a developmental process that can take 5 to 7 years if not longer; if it comes out shorter; it's most likely they haven't spent enough time in this process; I should know all about that, as my husband spent 3 years in; and came out with an issue he tried to set aside and behind him.  This was HIS doing, not mine; and as a result; we spent another 6 or 7 years in a different kind of crisis, but related to the first one.

In that interim; I suffered through a Transition that lasted 7 1/2 years; while my husband "shelved" that final issue of his that concerned his parent's divorce when he was 7 years old.  He was "waiting" on me to help him like I had before; yet, acted out once again in a totally different kind of way that taught me boundaries were OK for bad behavior at ANY time of the crisis...and every one I set; he violated repeatedly; and so it seemed the "rules" of engagement changed from the first bout into the second bout.

Yet, I completed, in various aspects my own journey to wholeness  and healing; and emerged whole and healed; having faced ALL and everything; while my husband STILL lagged behind in his finishing.

The Lord intervened; through the circumstances He allowed to happen, my husband was brought down and forced to finish this out....he's been out for a little while; but the whole time considered, ended up being nearly ELEVEN years total; between all I describe in short form.

There were many times I wanted to quit; but the Lord intervened each time; except for one time not long ago; when I was given a clear choice; and after much thought, I figured I had come this far; it didn't matter that I had to come a little farther to come on through with him.

You see, I loved him; no matter what; and though some people may see that love as having been "toxic" you need to understand he is what I know and love; and he was willing to stay with me, too; while I was enduring my Transition.

The two of us have been through a great deal in our lifetimes; and it stands to reason that we would stick together once again; although I KNOW he wanted to walk away at times, and so did I.

In the end, however, it was worth the road walked, the learning accomplished, the growing completed for this aspect, and the becoming of what the Lord meant for BOTH of us to be given the time we walked through this.

I saw a better man; and I am still seeing a more settled, more resolute, more caring, more loving; and he's on MY side; it's us against the world.

Yet, I became someone different as well; one that could not only just "cope" better; but deal better; and I saw the blessings given unto me all during this time by the Lord who KNEW how long this road would be; but never left me to walk it all alone.

I illustrate a BETTER, more satisfying life that comes at the end of this; once the road is walked in full by BOTH of you....and even IF it comes about that your MLC spouse should walk away; through completing your own journey to wholeness and healing,  YOU would be able to make more informed and better choices in regards to a new partner IF it should come to that; so you would not have to deal with this again.

That is why the journey is SO important to complete; once you fix what is wrong within yourself; you will then be more knowledgeable regarding the various red flags that show clear immaturity in not only your MLC spouse, and learn to grow to help them change; but you'll also see these in other people too; so you'll know how to handle bad behavior within others by setting proper boundaries, and taking care of yourself.

Most of all, as you progress along; you'll learn that you'll be just fine no matter what happens in the future; and you'll also find that you won't need the MLC spouse to "complete" you; you'll be complete in yourself.

It's hard work to grow, change and become; I won't kid you; it was hard for me, when it was me.

But you'll be fine. 

[kikki]

I mentioned MLC to my H at BD, many months before I found this website, and found it was the last thing I should be doing.  I tried for some time to get him to see his behaviour was weird.  Then I learnt to zip it. 
He was in denial - nothing was going to change his course.

Recently, at around 21mths post BD, on one of my H's chats (usually every couple of months), I finally said to him.  I'm going to tell you a bit about what I think has happened to you.  He sat there with his eyes getting larger and larger, and his head nodding.......

I didn't go on for too long, but at the end he said - 'I just wish someone had understood what I was going through, and could have told me what was happening to me!!!!!'

I didn't bother answering that one ............. 

He was definitely open to me talking about what he experienced/felt (like he was going to die if he didn't leave etc), also okay with me talking about an identity crisis - but as soon as MLC was mentioned, he cut me off.  That was not what he was having!

[HeartsBlessing]

In fact, MLC is not a medical diagnosis, if I'm not mistaken.

No ma'am, it's NOT even a psychiatric disorder, because it "mimics" so many other disorders.

You should have been around back in 2001/2002; when there was NOTHING to be found on MLC except Jim Conway's book Men in Midlife Crisis.  It was trial and error; and all I had was the ongoing experience I was walking through, my Insight, and the Lord was helping not just me but several others...very similar to what it is now on this board.

Just so you know, I started this kind of work/movement when I expanded Jim Conway's original stages and I wrote the lessons that were to be learned by the LBS AND the MLC'er as Sermons back in 2002 over on DB. 

It's amazing to me, people are STILL reading what I wrote back in the day; even after all this time.

My husband at that time, was within his first bout of crisis that lasted 3 years; and I was learning as fast as I could about what one was supposed to do to learn/change/become.   I documented everything; some of it went missing when DB went through an upgrade.

I didn't do it all alone; as there were several of us; that "pioneered" this "early" movement in MLC; RCR didn't come along until a few years later after I left DB in early 2003.

It seems the more I've learned about MLC; the more I keep learning of the various aspects and such.

At least with a clear psychiatric disorder; you know exactly what to do to get a handle on it, but MLC is so varied; and so uncertain there is NO REAL SOLUTION that can be gained to this; simply because the cases are SO various and different.

There aren't that many therapists that actually UNDERSTAND MLC unless they have already been there and done that.

I believe in counseling, but to be honest, I never went and neither did my husband....he refused, and because I was paying close attention to my Intuition/Insight; I didn't need a "human" counselor.


Hello Kikki, 

I didn't go on for too long, but at the end he said - 'I just wish someone had understood what I was going through, and could have told me what was happening to me!!!!!'

LOL, does NO good to tell him he was refusing to listen/ in Denial; they don't remember much of what they do/say later on; as their memories DO fade, given time.

You did the best you could do; just say nothing; because he would have argued that IF you'd told him he wasn't listening earlier in his crisis, LOL!!

Don't worry about him, some, including my husband NEVER buy into this truth.

Just stick to the behaviors; NOT what he perceives as the "label"....people often think of MLC as a red convertible, and a young blonde on their arm; nothing deeper than that...and certainly NO ONE ever thinks it will happen to THEM.