[Dontgiveup]

Your post was very insightful Thundarr.  I have something to add, and in Jeopardy format I will do it in the form of a question.

With the point you made about trust, would it be possible to say that trust can be rebuilt because there is a foundation?

My answer would be yes.  Many LBS recognize that their MLCer is very different from the core person they were for so many years.  Since MLC is a process, I think it is very believable that the MLCer can return closely to those cores that they held......only more "refined and effective" as Jim Conway writes.

[Thundarr]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, DGU.

[LisaLives]

Call me a jaded cynic.  I find this interesting.  I think trust is the foundation to any relationship and I truly believe it can never be reestablished.  I think you can harden your constitution, look past certain things and thereby change your definition of trust, create better boundaries and limits, but once a sacred trust has been shattered, I don't think you can ever go back.

I think there are cases where trust has not been shattered, and then there's a chance.  I think there may be some people who never wholly trusted, and then there's a chance.  And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance. 

But I think, for most of us, when your spouse--the person you trusted more than any other--spits on your marriage vows, turns to another person and puts your kids in jeopardy, even if it's only in a minor way, but clearly puts their own needs above their children and spouse, I don't believe you can ever go back.  Anyone that says they can is fooling themselves. 

Some people come out with a renewed resolve NOT to trust that way ever again, and in reality, I think that is the only way to achieve R.  I think it is possible to rebuild that trust over a LONG period, but embarking on R means you have to put aside trust, for some period of time, because THAT person betrayed you and if they did it once, how will you ever know they won't do it again? 

And this is where I find "standing" so hard.  I value loyalty and trust, more than anything.  I have discarded "friends" for minor breaches.  So what to do with exH?  Even considering taking him back would mean I would have to change my VALUES--how does one do that, and can you feel good about it?  Could I feel good about myself if I elevated a person who trashed me above all of the things that I value and am trying to teach my kids?

And this is why I asked the question.  Do you have a line that could not be crossed?  I could have forgiven a sexual dalliance, I could have forgiven financial infidelity, drugs, alcohol, a sex addiction...  But for me, I think when he decided he loved her enough to MARRY her, I had to come to the conclusion that nothing we had meant anything to him, because there was NOTHING that made him hesitate enough to look back and try to salvage even the RESPECT for what we had by leaving in a better way--she was worth sacrificing everything.   

No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc.  If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again?  How could I ever know he completed his journey?  And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it.  I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back.  I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation? 

[kikki]

No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc.  If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again?  How could I ever know he completed his journey?  And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it.  I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back.  I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation?

Lisa - this is what scares me witless too - how can I ever know if he completed his journey? 

'And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance.'

My H definitely falls into this category.  His behaviour has been so 'out there', that not once have I questioned whether this was MLC.  But have continually questioned - is this just MLC, or MLC and bipolar as well?

[LettingGo]

Lisa, I get what you are saying about trust. I just don't feel that way. Maybe because I have been betrayed MANY times in my life, and I have also lied and betrayed others, (but not to the degree my MLCer is doing them... i'm also not a serial killer, LOL!!). I'm a nice person.... what would cause me to do those things? Lack of character? Sure... but I also had and have many WONDERFUL character traits....  so, again.... lack of character? How does one build character? What happened in my childhood that shouldn't have, or what DIDN"T happen that SHOULD have? As an adult, I've had opportunity to read about or find counsel for my abandonment issues... yet they were NOT put completely to rest.. I just didn't know it. So, I have done the best I could, with what I had, under the circumstances... and still, I failed myself many times, and failed OTHERS that counted on and trusted me. Does that mean I can't be trusted ever again? Because I can be trusted NOW, more completely than EVER. All it took was for ME to see, and accept who I really am, what I've really done in the past, and how I choose to be from now and forever on. That's all it takes. So, if a person truly SEES themselves, can they be redeemed? I have been... why not my husband?

I just don't understand how anyone would want to go through life expecting the worst from people... I have witnessed the BEST from people.... and yet I know the WORST also exists..... how do you know the people you hold in the highest regard weren't headed down the wrong path at one time? How do you know YOU would never succumb to temptation, or depression? You don't know... you THINK you know... but you don't. It's the certainty that you KNOW that will get you every time.... that and FEAR.

[Dontgiveup]

RCR's article Tidbits of Trust

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_trust_tidbits-of-trust.html

[HeartsBlessing]

Thundarr, 

Now, as far as what HB said about "two children entering the marriage"

WHERE did you get THAT out of this: ?

Literal "children" go into the crisis, true adults emerge

I did NOT say "children go into marriage"...a person can be mature physically and mentally; but childlike emotionally.  Children go INTO the crisis, ADULTS emerge"

NO ONE that enters this phase is truly emotionally mature; but assuming they allow this process to work on them, they will emerge whole and healed in ALL aspects; NOT JUST SOME.

On the other hand, the true unshakeable concrete AND rock foundation of a marriage should contain ALL of these aspects:

1.God as the Head of Household; (which is a given; without Him who authored and created marriage; you have a real problem).

2.Commitment,

3.Love,

4.Trust,

5.Honor,

6.Protection

7. Integrity

Without these necessary elements to rebuild a NEW marriage, the very foundation of the marriage is unstable, subject again to failure.

Without COMMITMENT; there's NO HOPE for either side; as it takes this one aspect to see the MLC spouse through the crisis without cracking up or walking away; as this one aspect can help hold a failing marriage together when the LOVE is gone for a time.  Yet, after the Lord, it's the FIRST aspect needed to rebuild; because the road to a new marriage is NOT an easy one.

Without LOVE, the relationship can be held together by commitment; but it becomes a cold hard existence. Love is often sacrificial, being willing to fore go your own desires, setting yourself aside at times in the name of helping your spouse become the best they can be.

Love is patient, love is kind, love is longsuffering; and in the words of Jim Dobson; Love must ALSO, at times, be TOUGH.

 AND, love must be FREE; a letting go that because you love, you want your loved one to be happy no matter what they choose, whether they choose to stay with you or walk away.  This is the kind of love GOD Himself extends to us; He lets us go to do whatever we think we need to do; and He wants us to be happy; yet, He also knows we won't find true happiness but within Him and ourselves, and no other "outside" resource will ever do.

NOW, before you read the next one; there is a serious breach of trust in any situation that breaks the marriage down; the trust WILL return in time, BUT until that time, learn to always trust the LORD with all and everything, and NOT lean to your own understanding.

There are several aspects of trust that are broken; physical, emotional and mental....consistent behavior and a willingness to be transparent for a time, or for always can rebuild trust; given time.

Without TRUST there will always be suspicion, alienation, and an unwillingness to become a true team of two that becomes ONE, so that instead of becoming united against the world having each other's back,  so to speak, you will instead become a competitive set of two; lacking true intimacy; therefore cheating each other out of a deepening connection.  Trust also means you are comfortable, and can be YOURSELF, without fear of what your spouse will say/do in retaliation.

It does NOT mean you can just do whatever you want, if you KNOW it's going to hurt your spouse; that seriously destroys trust.  Yet, I would think it goes hand in hand with Protecting the marriage; being unwilling to do anything that would hurt the other; and being consistent in behaviors that would grow various aspects of trust within the marriage.

Without  HONOR; your marriage vows are worthless, even if you renew them.  Even God commands us to honor each other.  A man is charged to honor his wife, who is the weaker vessel, to love her as Christ loved the church, and gave His life for it.   Wives are commanded to respect their husbands.   Yet, there are men AND women every day that "cut the legs" out from under their partner instead of honoring them as they should.

On the other hand, Jesus gave a commandment that said "Love ye one another, as I have loved you"..this is a very tall order for people to follow; but we must needs do the best we can...to love IS to also honor/respect the one you give your heart and devotion to.

Without PROTECTION on the part of BOTH people; there are NO protective actions taken to care for and keep the relationship SAFE.   Protect what is dearest to you, and you will always be protected.  This is done with proper boundaries that not only protect you, but also your marriage...and boundaries are NOT only for your spouse, they are for OTHER people as well, especially those who would come in between you and your spouse.

Without INTEGRITY, all of the above could not be carried out as it should be. 

Don't confuse this with your life History which includes the person you've married, and your family.  This is a totally separate aspect; or it is to ME.

Each person's life is separate, together, family related, and there is a history that remains; but this is NOT the actual foundation that is built upon.

Of course, the familiarity  with your spouse is a given; after all you've spent a great deal of your life with your marital partner; but this is considered HISTORY of the relationship; a completely different ASPECT of a relationship; not necessarily the FOUNDATION this same history was built upon.

There are various aspects that make up the whole, and the above listed are the MOST important aspects needed in order to rebuild stronger than before.

And in the end, it certainly DOES become all about the aspects; and I do separate these things out; they all tie together in various ways; BUT they are STILL separated in my own point of view.

Just because you have history, does NOT mean you will rebuild a NEW foundation, based FROM and within that past history.

Once a new foundation is created, you begin creating a whole NEW type/aspect of shared history that has NOTHING to do with the "old" history, if that makes sense.

Your history, regardless of what aspect you speak of or see, is actually meant to be learned from, then you're meant to let it go into the past.

That's also why forgiveness, acceptance and healing is so important; once this is all processed; then you need to let it go.  As long as you live in the past, there is NO future to be had...you cannot live in both aspects at the same time...you can only live in one or the other.

Even falling in love becomes different that second time around; everything changes.  The basic concepts of HISTORY, such as how long you've been married, how many children you have, other aspects of marital history that aren't forgotten, but are no longer relevant because the past CANNOT be changed to fix any mistake real or perceived that was made during that time.   Some, but not ALL of your likes and dislikes will be carried out of the end of this trial,  though even your perception/perspective changes once the crisis begins to be a distant memory.

Yet, of course, for those of you who might jump on this one, LOL...your CHILDREN DO move forward WITH you, regardless of how this may come out; that is your family and but one aspect of your marital history which contains many aspects. 

Each person is unique in what they will retain, and let go of as individuals.  It is always hopeful that once the trial finishes its work, all that was "wrong" or "unbalanced" will become "right" or "balanced"; and hope becomes new within the couple, even as they work on rebuilding their NEW marriage; from NEW FOUNDATION UP; rebuilding on the stronger and better aspects that I listed above this time around; based on  ALL they have learned during each one's respective trial.

I realize you probably THINK I'm painting myself into a corner, but I assure I am nowhere close, LOL, I have LIVED through this; therefore this was what I learned.

To separate the ASPECTS of all and everything is what I have done for a LONG time...as there are different lessons learned from each aspect.

And in the end, it becomes ALL about the ASPECTS that are closely related, but NOT just like each other.

Have a good one.

[LettingGo]

Very well put, HB. Printing it out....

[HeartsBlessing]

My answers will be in BLUE.

author=LisaLives link=topic=1946.msg116847#msg116847 date=1325442887

Call me a jaded cynic.  I find this interesting.  I think trust is the foundation to any relationship and I truly believe it can never be reestablished.  I think you can harden your constitution, look past certain things and thereby change your definition of trust, create better boundaries and limits, but once a sacred trust has been shattered, I don't think you can ever go back.

Honey, you're not a "jaded cynic"; you've suffered a great deal of hurt within your situation.  What you're asking, and saying is very relevant to how you feel; and right or wrong, you have EVERY right to how you feel.

And, you are RIGHT; once a sacred trust that was given blindly has been shattered; you can NEVER go "back" to what once was.  I have often termed it as "too much muddy water under the bridge.  I was also once asked by my husband if we could go "back" to what we were before he did all that he did, and I said NO, we can't.  Unless we faced the past, we would never have a future...and I meant every word I said.

For what it's worth, I NEVER DID "harden my constitution", sacrifice my morals and standards, nor did I ever make any kind of "excuses" for what was done to me during the time spent in his MLC.  Wrong is wrong, and you can never make what was done "right"; you can only make amends, ask for forgiveness, forgive each other, and forgive yourselves, as the past is set in stone; this cannot be changed, no matter what.   You can only try to do better going forward.



I think there are cases where trust has not been shattered, and then there's a chance.  I think there may be some people who never wholly trusted, and then there's a chance.  And I think there are some MLCers who are so obviously mentally ill for a period of time, that you can blame something else, and then there's a chance. 

I haven't seen one case where trust wasn't totally shattered, Lisa.  When a MLC'er turns on their spouse, one kind of trust; the emotional kind is shattered in that aspect.  When adultery is committed, the physical trust is also shattered.  Then there is your mental trust; where you see your MLC spouse or even a cheater do things you never THOUGHT they would do; and this shatters that aspect of trust.

When it comes down to it, ALL aspects of trust are shattered, because the relationship was NOT protected as it should have been by the person who shatters and destroys it completely.

And these three aspects of trust are really hard to rebuild.  In my case, I was encouraged to trust the Lord first; then all else would fall into place; and this took awhile for me.  There was so much hurt, so much pain, and so much damage that was done.



But I think, for most of us, when your spouse--the person you trusted more than any other--spits on your marriage vows, turns to another person and puts your kids in jeopardy, even if it's only in a minor way, but clearly puts their own needs above their children and spouse, I don't believe you can ever go back.  Anyone that says they can is fooling themselves. 

Some people come out with a renewed resolve NOT to trust that way ever again, and in reality, I think that is the only way to achieve R.  I think it is possible to rebuild that trust over a LONG period, but embarking on R means you have to put aside trust, for some period of time, because THAT person betrayed you and if they did it once, how will you ever know they won't do it again?

For one thing, you DON'T know if it will ever happen again; and IF you are a believer; this is where trusting Him totally comes in.

I had asked that same question of the Lord when I was going through; and at times, I had one foot in, one foot out, I was afraid, hurting, bawling my eyes out most days, having so much trouble trusting what He was advising me to do on other days.  Yet, I cycled through these feelings, just like anyone else that goes through this; and every time I started off another direction, I was influenced to stand fast and stand still.

The Lord kept assuring me this would not happen again; and I kept asking Him HOW He knew these things(I know, I was a dummy, LOL,,this was the LORD I was speaking to, not someone else).  He explained that my husband was going through MLC; and He further explained about the state of mind; and much of what He explained, He explained again later on...as I didn't "get it" that first time or the next 50 times.

In the end, I KNEW I needed to trust the Lord and take Him at His Word; as He did, indeed, have that bigger picture, knew all and everything, and I knew next to nothing at that time.

Yet, when my husband finished his affair, I told him directly there would NOT be another time like this.  I was wiser, more knowledgeable, and I told him I would KNOW if he did something like this again.   I also said that I knew it was pretty bad to live with someone who KNEW not long after when he did something he was not supposed to do that would dishonor me.

I further told him that if I EVER saw these same signs again; I would show him the door, no questions asked, and kick him in the rear end as a going away present.

I was right to do that; as it gave him further incentive to understand that this woman was NOT dumb like he thought I was.

I have not seen this happen again; it's been over 10 years now; but it's not something I "look" for, as, over time, I regained my trust for my husband, but it was a long, hard road.

The difference now is that I will ASK questions if I see something that is NOT right; and I rely on my Intuition to let me know what's going on IF anything is going on.

And this is where I find "standing" so hard.  I value loyalty and trust, more than anything.  I have discarded "friends" for minor breaches.  So what to do with exH?  Even considering taking him back would mean I would have to change my VALUES--how does one do that, and can you feel good about it?  Could I feel good about myself if I elevated a person who trashed me above all of the things that I value and am trying to teach my kids?

Why would elevate your spouse anyway?  No one needs to be put on a pedestal; each person is HUMAN; therefore capable of making mistakes, and you know you can NEVER put your eggs in one basket when it comes to a person in your life, married or not.

You really would have so much to overcome if you even considered taking him back, considering what you say next:

And this is why I asked the question.  Do you have a line that could not be crossed?  I could have forgiven a sexual dalliance, I could have forgiven financial infidelity, drugs, alcohol, a sex addiction...  But for me, I think when he decided he loved her enough to MARRY her, I had to come to the conclusion that nothing we had meant anything to him, because there was NOTHING that made him hesitate enough to look back and try to salvage even the RESPECT for what we had by leaving in a better way--she was worth sacrificing everything.   

No, she was NOT worth sacrificing everything; but your ex-husband does NOT see that yet, but I guarantee you he will when it's way too late to turn back.   What he did had NOTHING to do with you, and everything to do with himself; that is what drives how people respond or even react to various situations.   If it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else; the problem lay in HIM, NOT YOU.

Your ex-husband could have opened his mouth, and worked things out with you; but he didn't choose to do that, and in his pain, angst, anger, and yes, confusion, he chose a path that led him away from you, as what he did was a total deal breaker for you.

I do NOT judge you for that; each person has their limits to what they can stand to bear.

Further down the line, he will see this was and is HIS LOSS; not necessarily yours.   His MISTAKE in having run away, getting a divorce, and marrying his affair partner doesn't say that much for him; and I don't mean this in an insulting way.

I once saw my husband as no better than the dirt on the floor when he was doing the things he was doing; he contained a serious character fault; just as ALL MLC'ers who engage in affair contain this same kind of aspect.   It's part of a running behavior that doesn't fix anything; and causes damage that often cannot be forgiven by the wronged spouse.

It's HARD to forgive adultery, emotional abuse, abandonment; and this is a process that takes a LONG time to reach IF it ever gets reached.   This process is unique to each person; and I know from hard experience; it's very difficult to get there.

Thus far and ongoing, this is all food for thought; take what you need and leave the rest.

No matter the proccess, the dis-ease, etc.  If the lack of character is such that he could put his kids in jeopardy and walk away, how could I ever know he wouldn't do it again?  How could I ever know he completed his journey?  And that is what I find so unsettling about all of it.  I got through life knowing that as crazy as my parents can sometimes be, I KNOW they will always have my back.  I don't believe his kids will ever feel that, and he doesn't even care, or he would not have done it--and that means I never really knew him, so where is the foundation?

I guess I don't have to remind you that your parents won't always be there for you, and there will come a time when you'll have to rely on YOURSELF...believe me when I say I speak from experience, as my parents are no longer on this earth.  Nothing is ever certain in this life; and one must always expect the unexpected, as nothing is ever guaranteed.

It's hard to explain how you know when they finish..I know and remember still being together, the changes I saw that I'd never seen before; and these were positive; and his return of hope, and a looking forward, if you will, to the future, his change of attitude toward me that was consistent, becoming better as time went on.  He spoke of many things futuristically; became more open with me; did not fear me when I raised an issue I needed to speak about to him, I have become very comfortable with him, as he's NOT the same person I knew going in, and yes, I still do remember.

The only other aspect I know for certain is that I KNEW when all and everything was faced, resolved, and truly healed within him; and I saw him emerge as a whole and healed individual.

Life will always have its share of problems, but I KNOW we won't face this again; it's done and finished for BOTH of us.

Lisa, you had your ex-husband's love during your marriage; it might have not been the right "kind" of love; but he did love you in the best way he knew how.   Something in you most likely sensed it wasn't what it should have been.   You were prompted to begin some changes within yourself, that triggered a response within him; but the growth in you was necessary to begin, or you would not have started changing.

Yet, you loved him, too; or the two of you would not have stayed together for so long...no one is ever where they don't choose to be or don't wish to be at any given time.

A marriage is built in the beginning on two aspects which isn't the best of foundations; but it's a start: "Conditional" Love and a TYPE of "conditional" commitment" to begin with; yet, this is not solid enough, you can't "love" someone through everything; they must stand for themselves, take responsibility for themselves; and most of all, they must learn to love themselves before they can really love you.

When the crisis strikes, the whole foundation crumbles and is destroyed because of selfishness and weakness on the part of the MLC spouse.

Most marriages before the crisis consists of "I love you as long as you do it MY way"..which is controlling and somewhat manipulating...yet, during the crisis your eyes are opened to the knowing that you really didn't know your spouse in the way you thought you knew them.

Blind trust doesn't count; because it's not a "true" open type of trust based on knowing your spouse well, and if you look back honestly; you'll see various times when their behavior was NOT as consistent as it should have been.   We have all worn the rose colored glasses that hide all the truth; and most have had these type of illusions shattered which literally killed what love we once had.  Now, whether love returns in a more mature aspect remains to be seen, as we must also learn to love and accept ourselves for what and who we are...only then can we truly love someone else.

Yet, one partner contains the most important aspect and this is TRUE commitment to see the couple through whatever happens; UNLESS there's a deal breaker that happens; as there was in your case.

Each person, again, has their limits in what they can and cannot deal with; this does not make them a "bad" person; not at all.   I have so often spoken of growth that still must be achieved regardless of how the marital state comes out.

In all honesty, with a great deal of compassion, my heart goes out to you; you never asked for this to happen to you, but it did; and you've a great many aspects to work through before you'll heal as time will heal most of your wounds.


((((((((((((LisaLives)))))))))))))))) 

I don't know if anything that's been said has helped at all; but maybe it has.   Like I said before, take what you need, and leave the rest.   I saw the deep pain contained within your post; and responded to it.   I'd give anything if I could heal everyone; but I know I can't, so I do what I can to help. 

Much love,
HB

[Synicca]

I have to agree somewhat with Lisalives here...

Since I have had a very rocky R and M with Honey...I often wonder if after so many PA's ans sexual encounters honey has had in the past.....MLC or not, can he actually come out of this a whole TRUST worthy person? and will I EVER find trust again?

I thought I had found it after we remarried, to a certain degree...I don't think I ever trusted him fully as he has never really been transparent in all of the 24+ years we have been together. I have sat here today..wondering truly if I want to continue my stand into 2012.


I don't think honey will ever honor OUR m...old or new. I also do not ever think he will protect OUR marriage either.

I do not think this man is capable of actual love for another and therefor, why am I here? I worry that he will NEVER get through MLC...that he will be stuck in circles his whole life as proof by the many years we have spun the same scenarios.

I no longer FEEL any attachment to the man I have been with for all these years. I am so completely disconnected that I could walk away tomorrow and get on with MY life without HIM in it.

Trust IS important...but (for ME) and in my case. I don't think we EVER had a solid foundation...so where do you begin to build on something that was never there?? That's where I am at now.