Skip to main content

Author Topic: Discussion Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other

T
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6111
Discussion Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#10: June 27, 2011, 11:59:45 PM
SS, thank you for so going through this so thoroughly.  I have the book on my list to buy; these were the types of things that I thought I should be working on anyway, and it is good to see them all in one place. 

I have been needing to work on forgiveness with regards to my FOO as well; possibly even more so.

I've been wondering about his other book "Forgive for Good"; wondering if that is the same principles applied to other areas.   

From what I see, this book is directed at partners in a committed relationship; do you feel it applies even when one partner has said that they don't consider themselves in that relationship at all?  I realise that the principles of forgiveness apply anyway, but that's the bit that I was wondering about here. 
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#11: June 28, 2011, 08:33:58 AM
I want to look at "Forgive for Good" next; I don't know anything about the book but I bet it's about applying his forgiveness principles in life in general.

I think these principles apply in our situation, even if some of the things he describes are going to be challenging, if not impossible, to work on right now. Even if our spouses do not consider themselves in a committed relationship, we do. We can only do things to bolster our side of the relationship. If anything, the part where we know that our spouses are imperfect and can and will do things that disappoint or hurt us is pretty much a guarantee at this point...

Something else we need to come to terms with is this: even if our spouses were to turn around overnight and instantly snap out of the fog, that doesn't change anything that has happened. The affairs and infidelities are a fact; the arguments and angry words have been spoken. The missed special events such as anniversaries, birthdays, and those special moments with our kids cannot be reclaimed. In my opinion, it's important to put the discussion of reconciliation and rebuilding off until our spouses are ready for it, but I think there is plenty of room to work on forgiveness now and work on dispelling the anger and resentment that may be building up in each of our lives.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:03:26 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

T
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6111
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#12: June 28, 2011, 09:42:57 AM
Quote
  I think there is plenty of room to work on forgiveness now and work on dispelling the anger and resentment that may be building up in each of our lives.   

I think you've got it here....   this is what I need to work on.  The longer this goes on, the more "things" happen, the more there is the chance to build up anger and resentment. 

I think this is the crux of what I've been feeling lately.
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#13: June 28, 2011, 10:27:13 AM
I think you've got it here....   this is what I need to work on.  The longer this goes on, the more "things" happen, the more there is the chance to build up anger and resentment. 

I think this is the crux of what I've been feeling lately.

This is what motivated me to start posting even before I finished reading the book. Hopefully people will start looking at the state of their feelings for their MLCer and work on forgiveness.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:03:42 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#14: June 28, 2011, 02:26:18 PM
In step four, Luskin asks us to go beyond the abstract notion of choosing to love and forgive our partners, and focus on one quality of our partner that we do not like. He points out that a marriage is unlike the other family relationships we are in -- parent and child or siblings -- in that we choose the person we are married to, and we enter the relationship as equals. (Even among siblings, older siblings and young siblings may relate differently.)

Quote
(Emphasis mine) When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part. However, relationships can founder when this contract to forgive is not understood and followed by both partners. Good relationships are precious, and all relationships are difficult to maintain, so we forgive our partner because of the love we feel and our desire to sustain the relationship. The dismal marriage statistics attest to how difficult it is to sustain an intimate partnership and prove that good relationships require effort and hard work. Over time people forget to appreciate each other, and their bad qualities emerge. Forgiveness is built around the idea that we do not have to escalate feelings of hurt and disappointment into outrage or depression.

One way we can work to make it easier to forgive mistakes and bad behavior is to view our partner's actions in the best possible light. We can view our partners in a loving manner by realizing that they are flawed or hurting individuals who make mistakes, not cruel and hurtful people who intend to cause harm. (I think this is a perfect description of MLC!)

Another way is to deepen your understanding of your partner. Talk with them regularly about the other aspects of their life; their family, their work, their hobbies, or your kids. The better you know your partner, the more likely you will be able to empathize with and forgive them.

(Although it's not mentioned in this chapter, yet another way would be to challenge the unenforceable rules we try to impose on them.)

He describes a thought-changing technique, PERT (Positive Emotion Refocusing Technique) that can be employed to soothe frustration before discussing a problem with your partner. If you practice PERT, both when taking a break from an argument and when you are alone, it can help calm you physically, which should lead to a calmer emotional state as well. A brief summary from the book:

Quote
1. Bring your attention to your stomach as you slowly draw two slow, deep breaths in and out.
2. As you inhale, allow the air to gently push your belly out. As you exhale, consciously relax your belly so that it feels “soft.”
3. On the third full and deep inhalation, bring to your mind’s eye an image of someone you love (but are not currently upset with) or of a beautiful scene in nature that fills you with awe and peace.
4. Visualize first and then try to feel in your body the love or awe you have. It is optimal to center these feelings in the area around your heart.
5. While practicing this visualization, continue with slow and soft belly breathing.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:03:53 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#15: June 30, 2011, 03:40:30 PM
(It's been really busy at work the past day or two, so I haven't had time to follow up...)

The fifth step that Luskin describes is familiar to people in twelve-step programs and grief counseling: accept what you cannot change about your partner and grieve the loss.

As I mentioned earlier, there are things about your partner and your relationship that you cannot change. You cannot undo the lying or the alcohol abuse; you can't make the affair or medical emergency go away. You are better served by focusing on the things about your partner and your relationship that you can change.

Quote
(Emphasis mine) The serenity prayer asks us to think about how much unhappiness we are willing to experience trying to change things we have no control over. The average age for first marriage in the United States now is between twenty-four and twenty-six, and there are multiple remarriages at all ages. This means that our partners had plenty of time to develop their personalities before we came on the scene. (Emphasis mine) Our partners may not change a long-term disagreeable quality just because it bothers us or we find it wrong.

The serenity prayer asks us to use wisdom in order to determine what we can and cannot change. It may be a one-time or occasional thing (your partner broke a family heirloom or forgets to put the mail out to be collected) or it may be a long-standing habit or quality (drug addiction, estrangement from your family, anger management issues). It may even be something that you can deal with on a normal basis but can overwhelm you at times (your partner's inattentiveness towards the kids is more frustrating when you are sick in bad and can't look after them; your partner chooses not to go with you to a class reunion that you are dreading). When that happens, you must accept that the injury or insult happened and allow yourself to feel that angry or sadness, then you must grieve for the loss (you will be unhappy and lonely at the class reunion; the heirloom your partner broke cannot be repaired) and must move on. You must accept the possibility that some relationships do not turn out the way you hoped or should not continue.

Sometimes, using PERT can help you get over the emotions resulting from a betrayal or an insult. Other times (the death of a family member, being forced to declare bankruptcy, your partner asks for a divorce) the shock can be too much to overcome easily. Luskin describes an extended version of the PERT process, HEAL, intended to help people move through the grieving process.

The first component is Hope, where you make a statement of what you had hoped or intended to happen. The H statement reminds us of the goal that was intended, and reminds us that nothing is guaranteed in life. An H statement should be worded as a positive and deliberate action result, not something that was to be avoided:
Poor: "I wanted avoid declaring bankruptcy"
Good: "I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"

An H statement should be personal and specific:
Poor: "I wanted a faithful marriage"
Good: "I wanted my partner to be honest with me about their relationship with OM/OW"

It should concern something specific that your partner said or did, not a trait or quality of your partner:
Poor: "I wanted my partner to be thoughtful"
Good: "I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging"

The next component is Educate, where you make a statement that reminds you that there are limits to your control over your partner, yourself, and your life. You are acknowledging that although you have a particular hope, you might not get what you want. You accept that your hope may turn out worse, or better, or exactly as you wanted. Examples of good E statements:

H statement:
"I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"
E statement:
"I accept the fact that serious emergencies can arise without warning."

H statement:
"I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging."
E statement:
"I understand that people can be forgetful."

An E statement should acknowledge that there is an impartial reality that can affect our hopes and wishes; it should not cast blame on your partner or be an attempt to engage in self-pity. The H statement and E statement may cause you to be angry or upset; take time to express those emotions before continuing. You may have to give some time between the offensive act and the attempt to grieve.

The next component is to Affirm, where you recognize the positive intention for staying in the situation or relationship.

Quote
To find your positive intention, ask the following question: how would my life be better if I was able to improve the situation that is causing me pain? You could also ask yourself: what is my reason for being in this situation in the first place?

H statement:
"I wanted to manage our medical bills effectively"
E statement:
"I accept the fact that serious emergencies can arise without warning."
A statement:
"I wanted to spare my partner the worry of managing money and making tough decisions about their health"

H statement:
"I wanted my partner to remember my birthday without me nagging."
E statement:
"I understand that people can be forgetful."
A statement:
"I wanted my partner to feel that I think he is reliable and thoughtful."

The L statement is the Long-Term intention, where you simply state your commitment to follow the positive intention of your A statement and to use the HEAL method and other skills to do so. It can usually be as simple as "I make the long-term commitment to follow my positive intention and use the HEAL method." Occasionally, you may have to commit to learning new skills in order to prosper. These can be things like seeking guidance from someone who has suffered the same type of injury or loss as you, to ask a friend or family member to point out when you are complaining too much, or to give yourself a specific period of time to reflect on the injury or loss.
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:04:05 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#16: June 30, 2011, 04:10:09 PM
The final step that Luskin describes is the choice to recommit to your partner and the relationship. He points out that a good relationship is worth forgiving your partner for insults and mistakes, and coming to terms with annoying habits.

Eery relationship has its ups and downs, and you may have to recommit to your partner frequently; every time they wear the shirt that you don't like, or get into the same argument with your parents. Sometimes forgiveness can be as simple as saying to yourself "it's no big deal" and moving on; other times you may need to communicate your frustration or unhappiness to your partner. Many emotional reactions are necessary and healthy, such as being angry when your partner hangs up on you during an argument or being shocked when you find evidence of an affair. But how you respond after that initial reaction says as much about you as it does your partner; telling your partner that you're unhappy about their decision to stay out late with friends will be more constructive than complaining to your parents about how selfish your partner is.

Quote
Finding Your Positive Intention

1. Find a quiet place where you can be undisturbed for about five minutes.
2. Practice PERT once or twice to get yourself into a relaxed and open-hearted frame of mind.
3. Ask the loving part of yourself: what is my reason for having the particular grievance I have right now?
4. Write down your response in positive terms only, then edit until you have a one- or two-sentence positive intention.
5. Promise yourself that you will not tell the grievance story any longer.
6. Practice telling the positive intention story to yourself a couple of times before you share it with anyone else.

Sometimes, self-forgiveness is necessary; your partner was careless with your laptop and dropped it, but you yelled at them for half an hour because of it. Maybe you have a hard time being intimate with your partner because your previous spouse was emotionally abusive. You can use the techniques Luskin described such as PERT and HEAL to forgive yourself as well as others.

Being forgiving of yourself is just as important as being forgiving of your partner. The key to both is to take more responsibility for your feelings, focus on the positive intention, and accept that things can happen that are outside of your control.

(The rest of the book is a general afterword and citations for some of the facts and studies he cites. Questions? Thoughts?)
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:04:26 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

T
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 6111
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#17: July 06, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
SS, I've started reading this.  Right now I'm just at the beginning, where it talks about becoming a more forgiving person in general.    I may have to re-read, but I'm sure I'll have some thoughts on this. 

But some general things -- I noticed that this is quite a new book, 2009 if I'm right.  So it wasn't even around when my ordeal started.  I wonder if this will be another revelation, the way the Love Languages was for me....

This isn't nearly as easy a read -- the LL book was eye-opening;  not least for the reason that it's not rocket science to realise that we have different LLs, and that we need to love our partners the way they need. 

This is a harder concept, but may have a similar effect.  The LLs were very simple to explain and simple to understand. 

However, I've found that just by thinking about it and only having quickly read your synopsis I'm already thinking a bit differently.  I wonder what difference it will make to my outlook?
  • Logged

P
  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 622
  • Gender: Female
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#18: July 06, 2011, 11:10:58 AM
Thanks for posting this discussion.  I've not previously heard of this book.  I purchased a book on forgiveness some months ago (can't recall the name right now), but felt I needed more.  This maybe it. 

I'm "afraid" to bring out the love languages book again.  H was pretty nasty about some of it when we were first reconnecting.  I know what I need to know from it. 
  • Logged

  • *****
  • Hero Member
  • Posts: 2139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Books Recomendations & Discusion - MLC or Other
#19: July 06, 2011, 02:11:57 PM
The quote that prompted me to share the book is the one that I added to my signature.

I have found myself saying the same thing several times as this crisis has progressed. Someone asked a question on another divorce forum a long time ago:

"If your spouse came back to you, could you forgive them for leaving/having an affair?"

To me, it was simple; if I could never forgive my wife for the EA or for moving out, why did I want to stay married to her?

(To be clear, the realization that I could forgive her was the simple part; we'll see how the actual forgiveness goes when the time comes.)
  • Logged
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 10:04:37 AM by StillStanding »
Me: 45, Her: 40. Married 16 1/2 years, together(-ish) 20.
Status: BD 8/25/09, she moved out 8/28/10. No talk of D.

Every day is another chance to get it right.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

"Counting days won't buy us years" —Wings by HAERTS
"Forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past."  —Lily Tomlin
"When we commit to our lovers, we implicitly promise to forgive them. There is no other way we can live with someone for better or worse or until death do us part." —Dr. Frederic Luskin

 

Legal Disclaimer

The information contained within The Hero's Spouse website family (www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com, http://theherosspouse.com and associated subdomains), (collectively 'website') is provided as general information and is not intended to be a substitute for professional legal, medical or mental health advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. The Hero's Spouse cannot be held responsible for the use of the information provided. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a trained medical or mental health professional before making any decision regarding treatment of yourself or others. The Hero's Spouse recommends that you consult a legal professional for specific legal advice.

Any information, stories, examples, articles, or testimonials on this website do not constitute a guarantee, or prediction regarding the outcome of an individual situation. Reading and/or posting at this website does not constitute a professional relationship between you and the website author, volunteer moderators or mentors or other community members. The moderators and mentors are peer-volunteers, and not functioning in a professional capacity and are therefore offering support and advice based solely upon their own experience and not upon legal, medical, or mental health training.