[WarriorPriestess]

Previous thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2125

[Rollercoasterider]

Hey Mamma Bear—and everyone else.

A few days ago there was a comment about you being obsessive regarding the alienator. Now that brings up an interesting issue—in general. LBSs can over-focus on alienators or MLCers or simply MLC itself. For the record I am not convinced that you are obsessive, but I do think you focus a lot on the alienator.
It’s normal. Just like MLCers have a process, so do LBSs. Focusing on the MLCer, MLC (stages, reasons…) and MLCers is all normal. But normal does not mean healthy. Hey, I’ve got an entire section of articles dedicated to self-focus!
Mamma Bear, I think you have a firm and logical grasp of the alienator in the context of MLC.

That is why we call the OM/OW a band aid. They are just covering up a wound. A temporary shield, if you will, that keeps the wound covered up while the MLCer looks for happiness or worth or something they are missing.

See, that is exactly what I mean.

I only make fun of the OW to help me remember the whole "symptom" thing. You know the hardest part of the MLC is the OW affair. Right? So at 12 months post abandonment I'm cool. I'm not missing out on anything! Really. I know OW is just a symptom of his lonely state and hers. She's just a person but I do need to laugh about the ridiculous activity I am witnessing from the man who said continuously "It took me 35 years to find you I am never going to let you go"

I agree. At times we need to laugh at the absurdity and we need to share that with each other. And I’m with you, alienators can be absurd.

I mean really, Sweetheart’s alienator said she was practically a virgin. I can’t even think of a come-back to write. She had an 18 or 19 year-old daughter at the time she said that. Absurd.

She faked a pregnancy, but it was obvious. How was it obvious? Sweetheart knew her cycle. She had a period and 2 weeks later she said she took a pregnancy test—coincidentally at 1am a few hours after he told her he was leaving her. Um…she had 2 more weeks until her period was even due again. Absurd.

A couple months later she claimed she had some problem with her brain—water or a growth—and she would die if it weren’t fixed and she would not have it fixed unless he came back to her; that is what I mean when I say that she threatened indirect suicide. Absurd.

Yes, the most difficult part (for most) is the affair. It’s the idea that they would have an affair, it’s who they chose, it’s the shock that someone would do that to a family and it is the behavior of the alienator that keeps the MLCer cycling and yo-yoing—the Emotional Blackmail.

I know you don't just blame the other woman… but you really seem to burden the OW, with way more than her share. In my opinion, you do not hold your MLCer as responsible for this situation as you do the OW.
…I can't help but think, you are giving away a lot of power to your husband’s other woman.

I don’t know whether you are giving the alienator more responsibility than your MLCer or not. But I do think that you give alienators more power when you talk about them so much. Have your fun, but temper it and balance with more on the side of Self-Focus—much more!

But we all need to realize and accept that having this sort of fun is just part of the process and we will get through it. So let me share with you some of my fun.

I found a dating site and registered the alienator. This dating site was pretty lewd already. I created a profile and there was also this survey to complete—a purity survey or scale. I completed the scale and signed her up for all sorts of things and only left one out. Things like group orgies, girl-girl, girl-guy-girl, guy-guy-girl, watching…you get the idea. I then wrote a description that was apparently too nasty for even that site. I toned it down just a bit, but honestly, not much. She had some interesting likes that were certain to make her quite popular…I don’t know about the real alienator, but the profile I created was bound for popularity.

I then posted a naked picture of her along with a quite flattering (sarcasm) photo of her on the toilet.

I called my Dad and brother and read them the profile—I might have only suggested what I wrote to my Dad since it was not something I even wanted to say to my Dad. Within ~12 hours she had either 112 or 160 private messages. I read them all. They included photos and most were not of faces. Only 2 figured out she’d p!$$ed someone off. I took it down within a few days, but for a day or 2 I couldn’t get it down—it was stuck. But I did not include the alienator’s phone number, the only truly identifying piece of information were the photos…Oh and I registered her within her region. It was my Dad who told me I’d had my fun and now I needed to take it down—he said it laughing his head off.

I did fantasize about other things though.

• Putting a naked picture of her up on the giant electronic advertising billboard over the freeway with a request to call. Sending the same thing to everyone at her work.
• I imagined being able to travel out of body and appear in her bedroom or bathroom in the middle of the night and looking like a ghost (since I would not have a body) scare her half to death, then scare her the other half a day later!
• Hiring a  very pregnant lady (or new Mom) to knock on her door when both she and Sweetheart were there and then accuse him of cheating on her…that one still makes me laugh.
• Ordering a her a subscription to Bride’s Magazine to scare Sweetheart with her intentions. My Dad told me I would be the prime suspect in that one!

And those last 2 fantasies were late in MLC—2008. I didn’t spend a lot of time on them, but I did come up with them and they were entertaining. I didn’t post them though. Why? I was no longer posting, but had I been posting I would have been berated.

So was I giving power to the alienator?
I honestly don’t think so, though I could be wrong. I was doing so much regarding positive progress that I don’t think my occasional entertaining fantasies were harmful. But had I brought them to the boards—where I had influence—they might have had a negative influence on the progression of other LBSs and enabled others to give too much power to the alienator. I thought a lot about the practice what you preach versus do as I say, not as I do dilemma.


At one point (maybe more than once) Sweetheart got fed up with me because he said I was blaming the alienator for everything and not blaming him as well. I was blaming both of them, but that’s one of those tightrope things. We want a relationship without spouse. We love our spouse. We believe in the core person. But that means we are loving a cheater and an abandoner. We don’t have any love (other than agape) for the alienator and most of us do not ever want a relationship with the alienator. The exception might (might) be the LBS whose alienator was her sister. So we may have an easier time forgiving our MLCer or it may seem that way to the MLCer since we are trying to protect our love for them and not name-call, but we don’t have a love to protect for the alienator.

I don't obsess about OW. I have a full life and I am always busy. (relaxing too)
…The hardest part of this for me is accepting the two of them naked sleeping together. To help with the hurt and pain, I make fun of her. I have never felt that ANY OF THIS was her fault.
…Since his band aid has been posting wedding rings and wedding planners on her FB wall and no talk of divorce has happened, I merrily stroll through his crisis making fun of the ugly band aid he has acquired. My bad!
…I know making fun of people is not nice but I NEED to do it! Stress reliever...

I get the making fun of her. Here’s my question; are you making fun of her personally or of alienators in general? Most of my fantasies involved the alienator in physicality, but really they were general. I made up a profile that other than the photos had nothing to do with the actual person.

I’m not saying it’s better to be impersonal than personal, what I’m wondering is whether what you are making fun of too close to home? Are you making fun of things that might be considered cruel, inappropriate or inconsiderate if they were true and she weren’t an alienator? Extreme Example: making fun of a disability. Or even character assassinations?

The first time he broke up with the alienator I told Sweetheart to do it in person—no sneaking away. Why? Because I did not want him disrespecting anyone, not even her. A person who disrespects one person can disrespect everyone else—including you. Well, when we take our fantasies of the alienator too far and make them personal, we are doing the same thing. We are disrespecting another human being—even if we don’t want to admit the alienator is a human. We are disrespecting another creature.

This is a place of love and support, not a place to degrade and insult others—including your MLC spouse.

I thought I might have said even the alienator for that last example, but I guess I’m wrong. But I think I need to add it. We don’t have to like alienators, but agape is not about liking or having a relationship with them. I talk a lot about behavior versus character in regards to the MLCer. MLCers are behaving badly, but that does not mean they are bad. Same with alienators. We have an easier time accepting that regarding our MLCers because of our personal investment.

So Miss Affair Down Wales is getting that c*ap also because our MLCer’s previous persona is on vacation. (affair down doesn't care. any man will do as long as he's married)

Is it true that any married man will do?
Yes, it is absolutely true for some alienators. Most of those are not looking for a full relationship and they want the convenience of a man who is married since he won’t monopolize her time or emotions. MLCers want a relationship and will likely be too needy for such alienators.

Then there are some who prey on married men because they have no respect for women and/or they are jealous. In those circumstances the MLCer is just the dumb one who was available, but the real intended victim is the betrayed spouse. The alienator wants what someone else has and it is a competition.

But many Affair Down alienators are not specifically looking only for married men. They clearly lack boundaries and are willing to take what they get, but that’s the point. They get married men in MLC because the other guys aren’t going to be interested. Affair Down alienators who are mid 30s and older are more likely to have patterns of Affair Down behaviors in their relationships—regardless of whether the relationships are infidelitous or not. They are more likely than their younger counterparts to have a Personality Disorder and use Emotional Blackmail.

Then there are those poor naïve girls who have not yet grown up—early 20s—and who think this is how relationships start. They may become involved with someone in a position of power over them or maybe a co-worker, but they really are simply ignorant and before they know it they’ve been trapped by the hormones. Yes, they agreed to a sexual relationship—or encounter—with someone who was married and they may have tried to avoid it and fallen in to the sin. They may have felt shame and guilt for their actions, but once the hormones get involved the alienator loses control and becomes like the other, older more mature women who are Affairs Down. One the hormones take over, the young and naïve alienator may begin to behave like the older Affairs Down; they will display attributes of Personality Disorders. But that does not mean these younger alienators are as messed up as their older counterparts or that they actually have Personality Disorders. We all have situations in which we react with negative attributes, possessive in-fatuation has a tendency to bring out the worst when the recipient resists or has a spouse or others in the circle of influence who are resistant.

In the end, I pity Sweetheart’s alienator. That is probably not something she considers pleasant. I pray for her. I hope that she gets help not only so other families are not destroyed, but so that she can have a fulfilled and productive life. I don’t wish harm on her, though I do wish challenges for her in order to promote growth.


I don’t want any of you to think you are doing something wrong on the board by talking about the alienator, laughing at and about her and not even by calling her names. But at the same time I do not personally advocate it and (of course) some names will cross the appropriate threshold and need editing. But you aren’t committing some violation by calling the alienator Bowser. Back on the other forum there were nicknames. Some alienators were Rat Face or the Ghost and some MLCers were Peter Pan, PeaBrain and Puffy. And for a brief period—about a week or 2—I called Sweetheart’s alienator Ugly. I stopped when I realized I was just enabling the over-focus as well as the character-assassinations. About a week or so after I stopped, PeaBrain’s LBS called me out for it after I wrote something recommending we not do that anymore. Her argument had little weight since I’d already announced why I was not going to do it anymore. At times I lovingly referred to Sweetheart as Nutcase—but that was rarely online and never without also calling him Sweetheart.

I understand the negative names, but I’m not going to advocate them and neither will I ban them unless they get worse or something.

[SpecialK]

Thanks for doing this for me WP, this thread has certainly attracted a lot of very good input.

On the last thread Sassy posted a very interesting article on MLC & Depression, which  a lot of us have found very interesting, informative and although it is on the board, it's good to be remind of.

Thank you for input Rollercoaster.  I'm not sure if my ex's in an affair down, we were not together and as far as we are concerned we are single.  I refer to her as Miss Wales (she lives in Wales) because I don't know anything about her, only the little bits he has told me, because I asked if he had meet someone special.  When I asked if was serious he said yes it's getting that way.  He did tell me he was going to tell me what he next saw me but I wonder if he would have told me about her, but that's something I will never know, although I knew - gut feel - that he had meet someone else.  Weird isn't is how you know.  My last posting was this because my ex‘s attitude towards me has changed:  ‘Odd, very odd. He's only been acting like this since he meet Miss Wales. Before that he'd call every 2 or 3 weeks and his txt always finished with an 'x'. Not anymore’.  Now I'm someone who he treats with contempt

Yes I do obsess about her, not totally.  But all the thoughts that go through my head are:  What has she got that I haven't, I'm assuming she's a lot younger than me, beautiful, intellient, slim etc.  Am I doing myself a diservice, yes I am.   I am beginning to see that I am a lovely person, kind, caring, funny who's fun to be around.  Yes I have my faults, and I be the first to tell you about them, but don't we all.  Believe me when I say I am only just beginning to see the good side of me, until now I have always put myself down; not good enough, fat, ugly.  I often thought I wasn't  good enough for him, not intelligent enough.  I often asked what did he see in me etc.  I'm beginning to turn that around now and I'm starting to think actually he was lucky to have me in his life. 

Those of you who have been following my thread will know that I find it hard to trust my initution, and I question is it wishful thinking.  This is something I am also working on.   Ok I will share this, and it is hard to admit to and share because I could be totally off track, and he is really happy with her, but I actually feel she is a distraction, someone who can take his mind off of what's really going on.  I don't feel he's happy and that he's running away yet again from himself.  I do know he still cares for me, maybe that's why he's treating me with totally indifference.  Like I say, I could be barking totally up the wrong tree. 

Wow!  That's a first, I'm so use to putting myself down.  I feel quite enlightend    (Honestly I don't blow my own trumpet)

I always refer to my ex's first ow as Scary Bird (his son's mum), because that's exactly what she is, she did everything in power to break us up and break him.  She succeed in both.  Personally I think she is a very sad woman, lonely and because she can't have him, she makes sure that no one else does. 

BTW  I almost phone tarot tonight, but I didn't and that felt very impowering.  So I went to the bottle bank instead, then went and bought a new pair of pj's (from a shop not the bottle bank  ).  I'm very proud of myself.  That's twice now I have stopped myself. 

I realised today, that after seeing my new Coucellor it's the first time for over a week I haven't had a bad tension headache.  That's a good sign 

Thanks all for helping through this.  I really am listening now and working on detachment is a priority.

Hugs SKxxxx

[WarriorPriestess]

Good job SK.  You are doing great! 

[Mamma Bear]

     RCR Hey thanks for posting on here. I was thinking of what to say back to you. Ah geez...Sometimes I kid HB that "Elvis is in the building" when I see her on here in the wee hours of the night.
     She's like a cup of warm milk by a nice fire Who's bigger than Elvis?  Hmmmm?  That's who I want to say is in the building when you're here.  The Pope..Springsteen....Adele...   How about RCR is IN the building!
    I always wanted to get coaching and I will have to figure it out. Never tried but I want for you to be a millionaire. You are Einstein how you figured this all out and rolled it into this safe haven. Thanks. You're a life saver and your cohorts in compassion and giving are as well.
    About Bowser. She is not anyone I have ever seen or spoken to Thank God! Apparently from what I can deduce my H was lamenting to her outside her job at a gas station/convenience store (sorry LOL)  My Hs mom lived with us and it all exploded on him. He was drinking and ran away to leave his life here behind.
   He said she was going to let him leave his guitars and amps at her apt and when he asked if her H would mind.....she said "I'm divorced" and they got hit by a tsunami
  I am the most empathetic person in the world. Really. I'll pick up hitchhikers and murderers. While he stayed over there for 6 weeks and never let me or the Ds 8 and 10 know where he was.
   Now we have a smart Mama Bear bc of all of you! Up until last week I always would think of ow. But like bad food it finally passed. I feel differently now. Maybe getting 2x4'd by Stayed (it's cool) I'm from Brooklyn LOL!  Watch your back Stayed. LOL.. I am now thinking not at all about ow. I need a new name how's Princess Bowser   That shows Agape.
    What I'm getting at is...what am I getting at
    Oh yeah, it's like in college. I never bought the books. I always sat up front and looked at the teacher and listened to what they TOLD US!  That is how to succeed with any task at hand
     Here on The Hero's Spouse (Like The Home Depot)  We as students need to sit up front and listen to what the teacher is saying. I get it. Positive brings in positive and negative sucks you into a big hole of bad stuff!!!  Choice is ours..there's a whole world out there...out here...and we owe it to ourselves and our children coming after to be the best we can be with the time we are given.    Not bad if I don't say so myself. Thanks RCR  Princess Bowser Band Aids.....Oh and I would never have tried that computer stunt you spoke of at ows expense. Your Dad sounds like a rascal!

[Sassyone]

Wow Mamma when I grow up I want to write like you!    You always make us laugh.  RCR thanks for the reminder.  It isn't about them but we are human and we fall into that trap of making fun of OW.  Not nice, but we do.  For me, I don't like to share, but I am fully aware that it is my H's fault and not OW's.  We need to remember that even though they are going through MLC they do know between right and wrong, they just don't care.

Sassy

[readytofixmyselffirst]

I have been reading many threads and posts and I just wanted to add my own "feelings" concerning this whole topic.

First of all, the forum is for all of us to come to write, vent, and deal with our issues. I have read the articles, but I have not memorized. The one thing that I have always felt comfortable about was that there was no right way to act and that we were all in this together. As I posted, I got friendly notes and posts.

Mine is not an exciting thread nor does it have much "action". Believe me, there is no action....I really would like some action.

As far as OM, you can go back and read my own feelings. Taking a golf club to his computer. Having a UK LBSer kick the crap out of him. 20 quid, any takers? I envisioned taking them both to the gates and having them stoned.

Come on, I was competing against a fantasy and reality can never beat reality. "English Bob" was and stupid threats allowed me to focus on him first, then on myself and actually detach from the entire situation. It took a long time and when the affair is in your home and in your face, it really hurts.

Bowser was a riot. Lawyer boy cracks me up too!

I remember writing to Valise and referring to OW as the insect. It actually helped her feel better as she begun to see herself as a person and OW as something less. It helps build the self-esteem and by focusing on the OW/OM, we can stop focusing on our spouses and let go by shifting our energy from the MLCer to the alienator.

Our forum is for others to come and post their feelings and thoughts- to explore themselves as much as they explore the MLC. The last thing I want is for a lbser who is facing monsters at home to face monsters at the forum. It goes against what we are about and what we stand for. We are here to support- not inflict more harm.

Everyone is right that OM/OW is a bandaid for the MLCer and I accept that fact, but the thoughts of OM and my w together, their words, their secret texts and chats, their promises  was a huge gash to my heart. I came to the forum for comfort and some gauze for my wounds and that is what I got. I can only hope that those new to the forum receive the same treatment- not a tourniquet.

[xyzcf]

RCR..you did that...really? 

I have to agree with Ready and actually I have had times when people's comments have struck a chord in me and caused me to get upset...and then I think..what good is it for me to come here..just needing some TLC and then get criticized?

Yet...this place probably 99.9% is so full of love and care for one another. Yes we have different viewpoints, and certainly different styles.....I am mostly just happy that this is a place for me..my thoughts, my fears, my dreams.

As time goes by, the MLCer matters less..especially when they aren't in your life. The betrayal is very real though and that will take most of us a long time to let go of.

Sometimes...we have to be brave enough to say..hey that hurt..I needed a hug not a hit...because the written media doesn't allows allow us to be understood.

[SpecialK]

I have always found this forum a place of great comfort and support, especially now I'm ready to move on.

SK xxx

[Mitzpah]

This is an interesting thread (as was the last one!). I don't really have much to add, except that I also struggle with OW. At the moment I am concentrating on forgiving her and praying for her. I don't know too much about her and I try not to find out too much, thanks to advice on here.
My kids are older and have been exposed to her since the affair became public. I don't like it but I can't anything about it.
I am not totally convinced she is an affair down because I really don't know a lot about her - she is much loved by my SILs and my kids seem to think she is ok.
I try not to give her much head space but it is hard when she is mentioned by the kids and SILs quite frequently - so my focus is to forgive her and pray for her just so I don't go off in the opposite direction...