[OldPilot]

I agree just keep it here.

[LettingGo]

appreciate the post... but the sentiment of your friend is not so valid.. in my opinion.

I need to clarify, and maybe it's just me... it's the sentiment that her husband putting his foot down was necessary for her straighten up that I wonder about... when did he put his foot down? After he divorced her? What would be the point? So, if he applied "tough love" prior to the divorce, it did NOT cause her to wake up and come home, because he divorced her. Was he putting his foot down and when she straightened up and tried to come home he decided "NO"?

Was it the divorce that made her realize she wanted him after all but it was too late? Maybe she sees him divorcing her the only way he was going to stop her from her MLC....in that case, then half the country has got it right, LOL!! I guess a divorce is one way of saying "hey, I'm not going to put up with this any more" but it seems an extreme way to make that point, and he still didn't want her back...

So, what it seems like to me, is that she had these insights once she woke up from her MLC nap, and had regrets.... Now her new husband is benefitting from her personal growth. I can also imagine the guilt of bad behavior could lead one to believe that they didn't deserve love or compassion given what they are doing "coddling"... my husband says he doesn't feel "deserving", so maybe that's why he bolted again last weekend.... too much guilt and not enough deserve, LOL!! But the MLCer doesn't EVER "deserve" to get to come home if we are in judgement of them...they can NEVER "make up" for the destruction they've wrought... it's water under the bridge.

It's not for me to say how someone else has experienced something.... I just wonder about the idea that ultimatums are actually what brings them out of it... I can actually see that as they live in a total fantasy life, the reality that they might lose you if they continue on is necessary, but I don't think it has any affect at all in the beginning or middle stages of MLC.... I tried tough love on my MLCer many times... recently, even, and it caused him to panic and make a premature return, so I guess it worked in a sense, but he wasn't all the way ready for the FINAL return. It's not a CHOICE for him.... he's now in a panic (I'm fine with it) because he feels he's losing me and making it worse because he can't stop the addiction... it's a little too soon...

I also agree this story belongs here, and I'm glad you posted it...

[Trustandlove]

Well, this may not clarify, but here's what she said.  For the record, I'm really sorry I didn't grill her more on this -- if I get a chance to talk to her I will, and will post the results here...

As I understand it, he just decided upon one attempted return that he wasn't having it any more.  It is possible that she was told during one return that if she left again that was it.  Again, I'm sorry I didn't ask more...   So I'm not sure if that is tough love, it sounds like he was just done.   

What she said was that him putting his foot down stopped her from backing and forthing, which she knows that she would have continued to do otherwise.  Well, yes it would stop that, -- he had closed the door.  I don't actually know how long it was open for; I get the impression that not very long. 

Regarding 'waking up'; she never wanted to divorce, so it wasn't that which made her 'realise' that she wanted him per se.  I think you are right in that she got to these insights only after her 'nap' (well put, that...).  And yes, it would seem that her current H is benefiting.  As is she from his insights. 

So in that sense it's a different story; we hear so many about the MLCer being miserable for the rest of their lives.  She isn't, but she does say that this wasn't the way to do it.   That she wishes she had known how to ask for what she needed back then, rather than just expect that it would be provided. 

But in her case the LBS really did close the door, so in truth he doesn't care.    So no, the ultimatum didn't 'do' it.    And he didn't stand at all, so in that sense is very different from us.   I'm not sure if he ever did any mirror work, as he found a new wife quickly and just went on. 

[LettingGo]

What she said was that him putting his foot down stopped her from backing and forthing, which she knows that she would have continued to do otherwise.  Well, yes it would stop that, -- he had closed the door.

Yes, that was my point! It really only stopped her because she had no choice... but it didn't necessarily wake her up... that's all I mean, because sometimes we get fixated on how we should give them "tough love" and with all of the pressure from the outside world to "Not let him get away with this.... find your self-respect.... make him stop" as if just being more ANGRY or FIRM will do the trick, haha!

Hey, I'd like to stop the back and forthing, and divorcing would do that, but then I'd have to find a new husband, LOL!! I guess divorce was her husband's way of setting a "boundary" for himself. You said he moved on pretty quickly and I think that's typical of men... just like when they are widowed and remarry within a year... seems more like a security blanket and I would then question how much the marriage meant to them if they can just move on so fast... in the case of widowed men, often it is just that they are elderly and life is short and they want a companion and combined social security checks, that's all...

I don't think you have to put your friend on the hot seat and grill her for more info unless you are just curious.... This is an interesting convo.... because as Shantilly pointed out, the MLCer DID want to return (or might have wanted to return, we don't know for sure and neither does she) but wasn't able to. It could be that she is just regretting the way she went about it... I feel that way about my first husband and how I left him... I'm glad we're not married, but I'm sorry we divorced, and sorry for my part in it and for his hurt and dissapointment... I could have handled some things differently.

[StandandDeliver]

I would then question how much the marriage meant to them if they can just move on so fast

I look at it a bit differently - perhaps the H knew nothing about MLC, and felt as low as we all did at BD, but rather than coming to the conclusion that this is a problem with the cheating partner, he felt his ego nose-dive, didn't have any means of dealing with it etc. I mean I was lost when H left me. I really didn't know about MLC and I just felt the rejection and the the cold uncaring behaviour and believed that there was something innately wrong with me that someone would hate me so much to cheat, abandon and spew. If I had not found this site and analysed H's behaviour in the context of crisis behaviour, I would have been vulnerable to a new relationship if I found a person who told me that my H was crazy.

In fact, shortly after H left I went out one night and met a group of friends and started chatting to a single guy in particular, who I did not know. I told him that my H had left me and at the end of the night he told me he thought I was lovely and although he didn't know me or my marriage, his impression was that I was not the sort of woman a man would ever want to let go. He asked me to dinner and the cinema and gave me his telephone number. I never followed up on it (it was literally a week after H left that this happened), but if I had not found out about MLC and this had happened a few months after MLC I may have accepted the invitation to date. Not because my marriage was not important to me, but because I would not have known that there was any possibility that my H's decision was driven by crisis and that he might change his mind. I might have been vulnerable to finding someone. Now, that is not to say that that would have been emotionally healthy - but the only reason I can look at this objectively now is because I have read and read, and read some more, on here and started to do the work on me and aim for detachment.  Having been rejected and abandoned, I would not necessarily be too quick to judge someone whose reaction was not tempered by a growing knowledge of MLC and the process.

Even now, I sometimes wonder about dating. And my marriage was the most important thing in the world to me along with my children. But there are no guarantees that ALL MLCers will return and I also only have one life too, it worries me that I could pass up the opportunity to meet a wonderful person while I wait around for H on the off chance he decides to return. But unlike MLCers I don't really believe in soul-mates  - one person in the world that we are meant to be with more than anyone else - I do believe in profoundly deep love, companionship, friendship and working at relationships, commitment, shared history, romance but I dont think that there is only one person in the world that that can happen with for each of us. I would prefer to have my R with H because we had those things and I certainly never planned to have those things with anyone else. But if he never comes back or takes to long I am not putting my life on hold forever and if I meet someone and form a friendship that becomes love then I will leave my H behind, without ill will - in fact with the hope that he does one day find himself - but I won't feel bad about it because I did not break the marriage - and even in MLC the person does still make choices.

Wow didnt mean to be so long-winded and this isnt even a return story

[Still]

S&D,

That was well-said. I think your response was so reflective of what many of us feel. I think when we have received the ultimate rejection for so long, we could become very vulnerable to the attention of someone else. As an LBS, the road can be very lonely. Even when we fill our lives with activities, jobs, child-rearing, volunteering, social activities, there is always that moment when we feel utterly alone. It takes a lot of mental retraining not to let that take you to a dark place.

In every situation, there is the potential for the MLC'er to return. Not only to return, but to return a better person. In all the many, many stories I have heard, I can only think of one case where the spouse exited MLC and was not a changed person for the better. Of course, you have to wonder if they truly exited MLC or were a perpetually stuck case.

For me, my history with my h was so full of good things, challenges we weathered together, and children we have been raising/raised. I can't see myself starting over with someone else. Maybe some day I will feel differently. Only God knows.

[hobo1]

S&D
I agree with you.  I am a husband LBS'er, I would hate for any LBS'er to judge another for moving on.

There is no guarantee of MLC'ers return, if the LBS'er finds someone else who can make him/her happy, there is no shame in doing just that.

MLC'ers feel life is short, life is short for the LBS'er too.

If I was an MLC'er, and left my wife, and treated her like crap, then I will be willing to accept the consequences.  IF she found someone who can treat her well and make her happy, I will have no one to blame but myself.

 

[Dontgiveup]

Hobo

You are correct, it would be hard to judge another LBS for moving on....but something should be added to that....and it's part what Standing is about.  Moving on would need to be at the proper time.

The failure rate of second marriages applies to LBS also.  Leave the "finding someone else to make you happy" to the MLCers.  An understanding of MLC includes the understanding that they are blaming external sources (like the spouse) for their unhappiness......while looking for an external source (OM/OW) for their happiness.  Doesn't work.

Life may be short.....but it will be shorter if the Unconditionals are not learned.....which is part of Standing.

MLCers cannot see consequences during MLC......that's why regret doesn't come until after.

I blamed myself after bomb drop as well.  It's a result of buying into the Projection of the MLCer.  You've got to stop that and continue learning about MLC.

[truth_seeker]

I blamed myself after bomb drop as well.  It's a result of buying into the Projection of the MLCer.  You've got to stop that and continue learning about MLC.

DGU

I completely agree with you!  We should continue learning about MLC and part of that learning is the Self-focus process which is instrumental to our well-being.  Wasn't RCR who said that the Self-focus area is the least visited articles yet they are the most important?  I must admit I wasn't so quick to read them and only just recently begun to reread them.  Instinctively I had been doing this but didn't really realize how important they really are.   

[Still]

MLCers cannot see consequences during MLC......that's why regret doesn't come until after.

DGU,

We have seen this time and time again in MLC cases. I think it is so important for the LBS to remember.

This isn't about us, we didn't cause it and we can't cure it.