[Doc Hudson]

Hi Limitless,

Just thought I'd stop by and see if the lights were still on.  I'm not sure what prompted me to do so.  Might have been catching up with an old friend who witnessed the meltdown.

 I am so much better off now than with her.  Spiritually, physically and FINANCIALLY.  No more being sabotaged.  No more feelings of distrust. I've learned so many things by all of this.  This site, among others, both helped and hurt.  I healed but I lingered too long.  All the pain is gone, though.  I see what happened for what it is and there are no more answers that I need.  I'm good now and I have been for some time.  I don't think that I'll come back here again, but who knows?  If I do, I hope not to see you guys here.  My hope is that all of this will be a distant memory to you while you live your life to the fullest.  Take care.

Doc

[LisaLives]

I have to say I agree with Doc.  What is happy?  We can all look back at pictures where people SEEM happy.  I have pictures of myself that look happy, but I can tell you, in no uncertain terms, in that moment, I was NOT...  Was I happy in my life, at the time, maybe, I am not sure... 

But in line with RCR asking about our understanding of her articles and MLC, and this site, I think MLC is an identity crisis precipitated by another life crisis, perhaps exacerbated by chemical issues, but absolutely no imbalance or brain disorder is the root cause (in other words, I do not believe there will ever be a medical cure for MLC), just an unfortunate contributor. 

I believe every single person who is left must carefully examine what that means.  I do not believe a person who TRULY loves another can just leave, especially not for an OP.  The ability to transfer that "love," loyalty, or any other positive emotion anyone believes they possess is just not possible if it truly exists.  And I think that means it never did.  Will it?  Remains to be seen. 

If you have not yet seen the movie Demolition, see it.  I think it is a great dramatic adaptation of a person having a quarter life crisis with the freedom to act out gloriously.  If you look at other studies of people and motivation and personality and emotion, it all lines up.  Research says that only 25% of the workforce is driven by a purpose, the rest are there for a paycheck.  Some of those people do find purpose outside work, some possibly in their families, but what percentage of people are simply surviving through life, with no real purpose or reason.  And how many of them are jolted into reality at midlife by some traumatic (even if only slight) event that forces them to examine WTF they are here for. 

I think a lot of people don't understand love.  Love comes from embracing your dark side, admitting vulnerability and allowing another to share and protect, and help you grow.  Love is a very scary thing and a lot of people can't go there.  There are more irrelationships in the world than there are relationships, and most of us are afraid to admit it, even to ourselves.  I KNOW now, that while many people would have said I had the perfect relationship and family, that my exH did not love.  He did not really love me, or his kids, he can't, or won't, I am not sure which, as I was never really privy to that part of him. 

But, I do know I found several men who truly APPRECIATED me once I started dating, post D, and that was an amazing thing.  And then I found a man who loves me, which is almost surreal, after 20 years of THINKING I was loved, to be loved, is an awe-inspiring experience, every day.  And while R might still even be a logistical possibility, I could only be with someone who truly loves me and appreciates me for who I am right now, and is able to give me a real intimate relationship. 

And in that is the kicker.  What I went through for the last ten years has been hell, and he missed ALL of that, even when he was here, he didn’t go through it with me, he went through it next to me.  And then he is responsible for the seismic shifts that occurred when he lost the plot.  My new husband admires the person I am because of what I went through, could my exH ever do that, knowing he caused it? 

And also, I don’t think relationships are work, but they are a skill, and some people are naturally more gifted at them, but we all require practice and you learn from every relationship you have, friends, co-workers, and partners.  And the more you have the better you get.  What I have in my second marriage is nothing like my first.  My MLCer couldn’t talk about anything hard, especially not if it got anywhere near his shadow.  But now, in a second M, we are forced to talk about the fact that most of the time, I hate his D, but I have to work through that and let the better angels of my nature love her because of who she is to him.  And we both have to talk about what happens if things never get better between us, or if any of our other kids fall apart. 

We have had to deal with money, and futures, and negotiate all aspects of our relationship in a way exH and I never did.  And we have to decide, every day, to love each other in spite of the differences and the hard parts.  This is what I think MLCers whose LBSs end up here never could do.  And that’s why they left.  There are people who have MLCs who do not leave their spouses.  There are some who disown their FOO, some who abandon their careers, and some who find religion.  So, why do some leave their spouse, and some leave their spouse and kids—for another spouse and kids.  If it is that easy, what does that mean? 

And when you consider who they are hooking up with, how much growing are they actually doing on their “break?”  We are forced to clean up the devastation, pick up our kids and reassemble lives, but they simply sink into a convenient abyss.  They do not come back uncooked, they come back in a more broken state than when they left, possibly 3, but more likely 7 or ten years later.  I admire anyone who is willing to stand that long and take on the responsibility of nurturing that partner to the place where you have now grown, and, of course risking that the other person is even willing or able, I say props to you, and I wish I was that noble. 

But if you have any doubts, I would encourage anyone to at least try dating and exercising those R muscles so that when your wayward MLCer returns, you have a better idea of what you actually want in a R, because I guarantee you, if it was so easy for them to find a replacement for you, you can find a lot of options you might like better, as well.   I learned a lot from every man I dated, even the one-off’s (some of my lessons were hilarious, a few sad or scary, but still valuable…). 

Despite the few happy R's on this forum, I think TRUE, happy Rs are almost as rare as unicorns.  The strength needed for an MLCer to eat that humble pie is so huge compared to the cowardice it took to walk away.  Growing that much is rare.  That is why I would encourage every LBS to examine and think long and hard about the TRUE nature and character of their MLCer and not stand blindly, waiting, not living.  Just my HO, but I do agree with Doc, for the most part...  Love and light, ll

[Returned]

Hi, as another old-timer I just want to chime in on MLC.

Do I believe in MLC? Absolutely. My MLCer followed script perfectly, in every possible way. In the months before bomb drop he was secretive, lied constantly, stared at himself in the mirror, hated his job, and was terrified of ageing. He  BD'd me, dumped his clothes and shoes, quit his job, ran off with an old flame, bought a red car, had a young OW as well, worked out obsessively in a gym, made unwise financial decisions, didn't pay his taxes or health insurance, and flaunted OW on facebook.  I did not want a divorce, but I divorced him anyway as I feared what his bad decisions could do.

I do believe that in the cases who follow script MLC is biological otherwise they wouldn't all be so similar.  The transformation from loving husband to raging monster was dramatic. The cruel things he said and the shark eyes cannot be explained by a normal state of mind. I vividly remember him reinterpreting things I said and did, and even him hearing things I had never said. It was a terrible shock, because I had spent my entire marriage desperately trying to please him, and now nothing I could possibly do could please him. He would simply reinterpret actions of love and kindness in an unfavorable light.

MLCers have this fixed belief in "starting over', that somehow if they start over with the right person they will be happier, more successful, more famous. They are running away from something deep inside. They don't just leave their spouses, instead they try to destroy their spouses as a precondition for their fantasy of a newer better life. They project all their inner anger onto the person who loves them the most.

However I don't believe MLC just happens to anyone. I do believe that most if not all MLCers are narcissists with an overwhelming fear of death and ageing. It is their way of running away from death.

The question that arises is to wait? or not to wait?

Wow this is a toughie. There are so many factors. It is hard to want to wait for someone who is saying how awful you are to everyone he knows. I would say that standing is not a simple question of making a decision. It is more complex than that...

To be honest I don't think that making a decision about whether or not to stand really changes anything.

Eventually the MLCers infatuation hormones will wear off, the replay will slow down, and the MLCer will realize that they have driven away the only persons on the planet who love them. The exciting unfamiliarity of the OW will now be offset by the differences in lifestyle and interests. The OW has gained her trophy, but once she has the trophy what is the challenge? What can the MLCer offer her once he has given up everything for her? He will start to think about his family.

At that time you will be older. If you are happy living alone or have made a connection with someone who is able to share your life you may no longer be available. However my overall impression is that even if you did not stand after a certain age it is not easy to find someone who can share all aspects of your life in the same way as your lifelong spouse did. Blending families and lifestyles is sometimes very successful in the long term, and sometimes not so much.

Even when replay ends and they awaken to all the harm they have done there is no guarantee that they will have the courage to try to fix what they have done. What remains is their shattered wounded family. Can they forever reject their loved ones? Some will, and some won't.

[ember]

That is a very good, succinct synopsis of the life cycle of MLC.
I wish it were that short in real life.

[Mermaid]

That is a very good, succinct synopsis of the life cycle of MLC.
I wish it were that short in real life.

Wow! Text book!  I agree... I wish it were all so clean cut.

Just a couple of things... Standing doesn't make a difference to them. It makes a difference to us. It's not to affect them, but a personal decision. I think it gives us hope, and meanwhile we get used to their changes and sometimes question our decision.

Secondly. You think it's biological because they are all so similar? And are all narcissists? Where's the evidence for narcissism? We all have narcissistic elements, and this increases when we want to achieve something. It doesn't mean we are top of the scale on NPD.

Also, not so similar... Not everyone has the same reaction, even if we are in crisis. I know of a few cases where the person in crisis took some time out, meditated, prayed, travelled, etc. And then returned home. Then there are high & low energy types, boomerangs and vanishers, those who have EA, PA, single or multiple affairs. Where self-image is a big issue, its a clear indication that identity is involved.

Yes, hormones, biology, neurology are inevitably involved, but not in the systematic way you describe. MLC has a cultural context. Second, if they feel stressed or unhappy with their life, this will increase cortisol and decrease serotonin. It's an organism reacting in a social environment rather than a independent brain implosion! It's not systemic in the human species ... We don't all have MLC, and don't react in the same way to stressors. Our emotional and social resources, individual needs and perceptions, identity and personality all play a part.

Biology is always affected by social context. A very basic example is of smiling. All babies in all cultures start smiling around the same age, according to their neurological development. But did you know that in some cultures babies smile more than others, irrespective of individual variations? On an individual level, nelegected infants smile much less. Then there are individual personality traits (in the neolimbic brain) which affect the frequency of smiling.

So... In conclusion. Even if our MLCers seem to be having an unhealthy reaction to life, it's essentially their individual reaction to their own life course, mediated by biological mechanisms, not a sudden biological illness that appears from nowhere. It is possible, and there have been cases here, where changing hormone levels have triggered behaviour changes. But it's not the only factor.

[Keep believing]

Attaching

[Thunder]

Very good discussion.

Maybe not for newbies but for people who have been in this situation for a long time.
We all learn and grow so much.  It's amazing.

Sharing what we have learned is important.  Even if it helps just one person.
Thanks to all who have contributed!   

[Jah63]

9 years and still counting,came back for 18 mths only to leave again.
On off with ow,lots of contact with me.
Finally married ow 2 years ago but didn't live with her the week he had our boys,still lots of contact with me.
Now moved 21/2 hours away ,hardly sees his kids ,very quiet with me,everybody who sees us together thinks we are happily married couple ,very
Shocked when they find out the truth.
9 years a long time to go through this ,he's not changed much in this time really
Lies,manipulation etc.perhaps he's one that won't ever come out of whatever this is.i the very beginning he was text book ,emotional,clinging,spoke of his head spinning,blatantly open about ow,even at one point asking me to pick clothes for him for a big night out with ow 2nd bd came the cold uncaring nasty episodes,very cruel.liked to inflict as much hurt as he could seemed to thrive on it.now things are quiet as he's hours away living a good life .
After 9 years still don't have any answers,just have to live your life as best you can,at first it's fake it till you make it ,after that you start doing it for real. As to wether any come back ,most don't and that's jmo it's hard but nothing we can do,except hold them in your heart ,live life.find your happiness and hope they find theirs .