[OldPilot]

Everything you are stating is replay behavior. They are searching for their youth. Trying to go back in time to finish growing up. Something didn't go right during their childhood and they must go back and finish that stage of their life before they can continue on.  What I am telling you is my understanding of the crisis. Jim Conway wrote of the different stages in "Men in Midlife Crisis.". It has been expanded on by others. I believe RCR is going to get a copy of this for our  forum. I agree that it is good to have an understanding of this but maybe we should wait a few days for the info to be posted and then we can better discuss it.

I would suggest the Conway book to read. It is pretty easy. Only took me two days to finish it.

[Still]

My understanding, after many, many MLC books/literature/websites, is that MLC can begin months/years before the actual "bomb drop".

Some people term "bomb drop" as the ILYBINILWY speech and some term it as the declaration of an affair of some level. Sometimes that affair is a fantasy affair, sometimes it is an emotional connection, and sometimes it is a physical affair.

Whatever that person is trying to do to prevent the aging process and to lift depression seems to be "replay". For some people, it is alcohol/drugs, sports cars, risky behaviors, alterations in appearance, working excessively, and the dreaded OP. Sometimes there are several of these at play at the same time.

Until they stop trying to use something or someone to self-medicate feelings that need to come to the surface and be dealt with accordiningly, I believe they are still in Replay.

[justasking]

Thanks OP

I have read Jim Conway's excellent book. Now I frequently go back to it and read the info again and each time I get more from it. You are right it is so easy to read and so helpful.

I agree. Wait for the info and then discuss it.

[HeartsBlessing]

There are some people...like me, for example, that NEVER got the "speech" ILYBNILWY...I only knew for the first couple of years that I was dealing with a very angry man, and let him go, BEFORE I ever knew what was happening.

My bomb was the discovery of his using internet porn, THEN the signs of the OW dropped, not long later.  His secret was out...and his life WAS secretive most of the time BEFORE I hit discovery.
I came to understand that when I busted him like that, it led to him "awakening" to what he was doing, and he took steps to get rid of OW, all the while denying her existence.

When my husband got rid of OW, going into OW Withdrawal, I heard many strange things he said about his feelings having changed, etc..and he was "mumbling" the I love you's....it was really weird.  I think what he was feeling scared him, and he didn't want to run the risk of losing me, but his actions were so out of whack, he nearly DID lose me.

When he was coming out of OW Withdrawal, then worked his way OUT of the Stage of Depression, he started acting more like he used to, and some things changed back to what they'd been, but he was still on edge with me.  One day he'd be fine, the next, he'd be angry, moving back and forth throughout the stages, before bouncing into Withdrawal for a time. 

He tried to come forward through the end of the Stage of Withdrawal, but in the process of facing his final fears, that would have led him into Acceptance, he bounced backward into Withdrawal; getting good and stuck; until I pushed him into a tantrum that I've NEVER seen again.

He came forward once again, breaking Withdrawal, THIS time he talked about what he'd faced while within the tunnel, letting me know that he wanted to be married if I would have him back.  Now, remember, he never left the house..but he was speaking from an emotional standpoint, as we were emotionally separated while he was deep within the tunnel.

Each person is different going through this, is the point.  I need to find my history, BUT it won't do anybody any good, as each person is different.

Each stages carries the seeds of the one before and after, setting the stage for the NEXT stage in this.

The signs of them being within Replay are clear, but the next signs of them coming to the end of Replay are not...what one person does another will not do.  Generally, true Depression sets in, although depression is present throughout the crisis.  They begin SOME processing upon reaching the stage of Depression, and it continues on into the Stage of Withdrawal, although BOTH stages can run concurrently or in tandem with each other.
OW Withdrawal, in the case of an affair, is a "mini-stage" that comes after the affair, but forces them out of Replay and into the next stage which is Depression then Withdrawal, or a combination of both.

When the stage of Withdrawal is broken, the reconnection with the LBS will start in earnest..as the MLC'er will have made the major decisions concerning their marriage and family committments.  Until then, it could go either way. 

Even AFTER Withdrawal is broken, there are STILL more issues to sort through, and the MLC'er must be left alone to deal with those.

It takes a LONG time for them to come out completely....there will be times of cycling that might have to be broken by the LBS...but the LBS WILL know when the time is right to do that.

It would be a rare MLC'er that came through in a textbook fashion...there are always detours that are taken along the way...and each person is different in the way he/she handles things.

It took my husband 3 years to come through, but it took me 6 to navigate a Mid Life Transition/Menopause....so times cannot be relied upon, either...again, each person is different in the way they come through.
Yet, I still had more to deal with regarding my husband, as he came out with an emotional block that neither of us saw, a child that was "missed", and so there was more processing to do, from late 2004 to the present, but many components  were missing from the major MLC he went through.



Have a good one.

[OldPilot]

JA

HB version of the stages is the one that I reference. She can write and explain it much better than I can.  I think we will certainly be getting that(6 stages) posted here. I wrote to RCR and she agrees with that, for the moment listen to HB, she wrote it!

[D Money]

OW Withdrawal, in the case of an affair, is a "mini-stage" that comes after the affair, but forces them out of Replay and into the next stage which is Depression then Withdrawal, or a combination of both.

This is what confuses me. My wife has had two OM's that she had relationsips with but that didn't force her out of Replay. She has since tried to have relationships with 2 ex-boyfriends that didn't return her affection and is now seeking someone on dating sites. For me it feels like it will never end.

[HeartsBlessing]

D,

As long as she continues to flit from one relationship to another, she is STILL in Replay.  It is not uncommon for MLC'er's to have multiple affairs while within that stage.  She's searching for something she is unable to find.  Still drying to drown her pain within another man, and it's still not working, so she's STILL searching.

It is when/if the final OW/OM is dumped, she turns back to you, and the OM/OW Withdrawal is gone into  with NO going back, is when she will be forced completely out of Replay.  When OW/OM Withdrawal is complete, then the next stage Depression is navigated.


Your wife is STILL in the stage of Replay, trying to recreate something from her past life.

Nothing you can do except stay clear of her, in the hopes she will run out of Replay behaviors, and start coming forward; but until she does that, she will continue on in Replay.

[D Money]

And that's what tests my patience. Sometimes it just seems like she's just going to go the rest of her life searching.

[HeartsBlessing]

I hear you on that...one other thing, before she starts out, even BEFORE all the OMs get dumped, there must be an "awakening" within her to what she's doing...that awakening leads to dumping ALL the boyfriends, ends ALL the Replay behaviors...and brings her forward into the OM Withdrawal to heal from the damage done due to the affair.
In that process, she must remove these affairs from her heart and mind, and until she does that, she is nowhere close to being ready to try and work on the marriage.  Even as she comes across, there are still NO R talks, nothing, but continuing to wait and watch, and be there if she needs you.

Something HAS to happen that's drastic enough to cause the awakening to come about.  Somehow, she has to see if she doesn't stop what she is doing, she could very well lose you.  She has to do this on her own, but sometimes people need incentive to stop what they are doing, and that is even true in MLC, especially if their behavior is being "enabled" to continue.

Sometimes, a confrontation in that area is necessary to hopefully bring them forward in a case of them taking advantage, no matter WHAT they are doing in the way of  Replay behaviors.  When it continues over and over, it is clear something needs to be done differently to break the cycle.

In other words, a child will continue to misbehave until the behavior is stopped, and the parent or figure of authority has to draw the line.

Boundaries, I know do NOT work at certain times in MLC, such as in the beginning of this, but at certain times they DO work..the LBS really DOES know when to draw that line, and enough becomes enough.

There is always a chance of them continuing right on, and then the consequences of NO CONTACT is set in motion, as there is NO room for three people in a marriage, there is only room for TWO.

What are you doing that is contributing to her possibly being stuck in this?  Food for thought here.

Are you saying she is cycling within these behaviors, and how much contact are you having with her with these OM(s) in the picture?

Does she make contact for a time then start her crap once again?  Or is she so far out there, you're not sure?

If she's making contact and trying to come back between the times of the OMs, then I would believe she is cycling through one right after another; in effect, she is taking advantage of you or "cake eating" trying to have it all and STILL have you on the sidelines.   I'm sure this would not be acceptable to you, but because you aren't drawing the line, she continues right on thinking this is ok with you...when it is really NOT.

This can be(depending upon your answers to the questions) one of the few times that line can be drawn, in the hopes of causing the MLC'er to come forward in a positive way.  In essence, there comes a time when you have to stop "catching" her. 

Now this is my two cents, and that won't buy you a cup of coffee, but this is what I'm sitting here thinking.

Although you cannot make her stop, you can decide to not have contact with her as long as she is continuing the boyfriend search...and stick to it.

If you lose her, you've lost nothing, SHE is the one who has to decide whether she wants to begin to come back into the marriage or not.

If she came back on her own, and you took her back, SHE would be the lucky one to have someone that is as faithful as you are.

She could also decide to continue her wayward behavior, and keep you twisting in the wind until Kingdom Come.

The only other alternative would be to cut the ties that bind and strangle, and leave her totally alone, getting on with your life WITHOUT her...you've nothing else to lose, D.

Think carefully on the questions, D..these are questions you must ask yourself..and they are tough ones, as they require you to be honest with yourself as to what is causing this to continue, and what you might have to do...and what the consequences of your actions might be.

When you've had enough, it is time to do something different.    You have more control than you think of the situation.  If I'm wrong in what I'm saying, please correct me.

It is HARD, I know it's hard...I had to break a different kind of cycle within my husband, and it was disrespect that he held for me..he thought he could do and say whatever he wanted to to me and I would just take it, and I HAD to draw the line...well, what you're dealing with is a total disrespect as well.

I'd known before I stepped to the plate that it could result in husband leaving me because he possibly wasn't going to stop his behavior toward me...and by the time I faced him, I was ready for whatever was going to happen....I had had enough.

I prayed about it then confronted him...and he went all out of control on me, throwing the biggest tantrum I'd ever seen in my life, but I didn't back down....I was afraid, but stood firm with him.

This could have gone either way, resulting in his leaving me, but it didn't go that route...not only did he stop the behavior, but I got an apology for it later on...although, at the time, he was too busy screaming at me to do anything but scream, and threaten to leave..whereas I just put it right back on his shoulders.

The point is they get ANGRY when you take away their fun, bringing them back down to earth and to a reality that you show them when you make a stand to break a cycle.  You are no longer willing to ENABLE what they are doing, and like a child they try to control you with their anger.

After I got over being afraid, I realized that he'd been just as scared as I had been, only mine didn't show, but HIS DID.

More food for thought. 

[Rollercoasterider]

Justasking,
 

One of the most confusing things about reconnection is the difference between touch and go's and reconnection.  For instance do touch and go's move into reconnection? Are they the building bricks for this next phase? If the OW is definately gone by acceptance then is it quite possible that she maybe there during reconnection as he tries to make his mind up.
Written down the difference is black and white. In practice I think it is much more confusing and not so black and white.
Awakening is more straight forward I think. As the WAH/WAW starts to wake up and we see flashes of the old spouse.
Clarity would be good.

These are excellent concerns and well said. I think I will use them as LBS questions as I write this series. I looked through my notes and I have started the series. It is called Coming & Going, but the first articles have not addressed reconnection or awakening, but have been more about the LBSs state of mind--losing love  and feeling as though she no longer wants the marriage, concerns with being second choice... But I had already outlined a Touch-n-Go article, When is It Real, MLCers Return Broken--which needs to be significant but is only about 70 words. But having a discussion like this will help me in my brainstorms.

Often in the crisis the affair comes towards the end of replay not the beginning. With this in mind it stands to reason that the OW/OM may be the last to leave as he/she leaves withdrawal, starts reconnecting and goes into acceptance.

There are no absolutes, but Bomb Drop often initiates Replay or follows soon after the start of Replay. Some LBSs recongized changing behaviours and for some it was sudden. For me, Bomb Drop was sudden. Even in hindsight I saw few clues. In the month or so before Bomb he had talked a lot about a woman at work--yes she was the alienator. After bomb I did not notice that he stopped talking about her until after he'd mentioned an OW (not physical) and lied about her identity he mentioned the woman from work again...and in that instant I knew it was her. But his changes were subtle. He has a BS in Phys Ed and was a personal trainer, so the different fitness activities were not a clue like they are with so many.

As the travel through 2 or 3 stages then replay may be the less dominant stage with depression, withdrawal or even anger showing itself more forceably.

Absolutely. Sweetheart did not disconnect from me. He tried during his first leave when the alienator got him to file quickly, but we stopped that process and from that point on he clung to me. I was detached, but we did not seem to lose our bond. This enabled cake-eating. But I saw very little Monster and his Replay often seemed mild when I compared him to others. He kept wanting to come home--and yes, I kept giving in prematurley and letting him. His depressions seemed lighter also.

There was never a period of no alienator during the coming and going. I hope she is gone now--and I believe she is, but have learned not to be shocked. If he was not with her he had to be with me. He was always the pursuer--before and during the crisis.

I did not expereince distinct phase boundaries. Cycling was rapid in the beginning, but it was like bipolar mood swings rather than cycling of phases. One MLCer's Replay behaviours may not be like another's and I think Replay itself becomes less high-energy. Early Replay is when you will see the weight loss, vanity, new friends, alienator excitement...but as they approach Liminality they may exhibit greater anger or depressive symptoms--simply lower energy than you saw before. Many will think this is Conways stage 4: Depression. But Replay stretches out and becomes fuzzier. It is just not so simple.

alienators can last. When they are still present in Liminality, it is often because the energy to end the non-existent relationship is not sufficient. An MLCer who always needs to have a partner will remain with the alienator because it is easier than being alone. Think about that; many marriages have such an existence too. MLC affairs do not end when they stop being fun. Sure, some do, but many do not.

This is why it is futile to try and locate your MLCer in stages. Replay is a characteristic of the Separation stage.

An affair may go on months before the Bomb is dropped. Is that the start of Replay? Sometimes. It may depend on the nature of the affair and the alienator. The Bomb may be dropped because of pressure from the alienator. The MLCer may have been testing out having an affair and got caught in it without realizing it would be addictive. He may have though he would just try out a fling. There may not have been intention of leaving or the idea that he would eventually think the alienator was his soul mate.  There are also many who drop the bomb and go in search of an alienator or who are having an EA and waiting to take it to the next level.

Bomb Drop often initiates Replay because it is a release and many MLCer leave soon after and are excited with the new freedom. Replay is about freedom.

My understanding, after many, many MLC books/literature/websites, is that MLC can begin months/years before the actual "bomb drop".

That is theoretically true. The trigger for MLC begins 12-36 before Bomb Drop--which is when you, the LBS, become aware of the crisis--though some of you noticed it before Bomb. But I think of those as being before Time in the roots. I don't meant he childhood roots, but they were less noticable and thus in the dark. MLC timelines are not recommended and yet sometimes using the term is necessary. I do not start the MLC timeclock until Bomb Drop--or noticable MLC behaviour if it precedes Bomb.

It may be helpful to understant the trigger, but analyzing the 36 months prior to Bomb Drop may be futile and wasteful.

I want to write more...but lunch break is over. I'll check back when I get home.

RCR