[BraveNewWorld]

Many things put stresses on a marriage. Again, I think reacting to those stresses with an affair is a choice. A destructive one. And how a person deals with that is a matter of character.

Bit of a tangent - this helped me ... and got me journalling.

As someone who still stubbornly questions his role in his marriage breakdown, mostly I think because my wife was pretty brutal in what she said to me, I really value what you've written and how concisely you wrote it. It makes sense to me. It is something that I want to repeat telling myself as I keep moving forward with my life.

It's what my therapist should have said to me.

I would say though, on reflection and based on the sequence of events, and other things my wife said, it is clear that her leaving and choices were very influenced by episodes in her past - before she met me. Things that were suppressed and not dealt with. I can see that too. There was an element of mystery - at points even to her.

I'm sure there is a mix of both things - a push and a pull. But bottom line, the relationship with the other person is more valuable to them when they leave than the relationship with their spouse. They seem to do whatever it takes to have that relationship. Of course they deny that being the motivation for leaving, but go ahead with it anyway. They rationalize it all by attacking the character of their spouse - the mind**** as you put it.

I was in a position, one time, where a woman I worked with and admired tried to initiate a relationship with me earlier in our marriage. I remember feeling shocked, but somehow flattered. I walked away, came home and hugged my family. I think that's part of why I find it so hard to understand. Even now, three years after 'bomb drop', and a year of separation I don't feel able to be in a relationship with another person. I suppose at some level that's a choice too.

[Anjae]

Chump Lady, Not so sure if a one-off cheating or affair is about the overall character of a person. It may just be a circumstance that is never repeated again and the person may have learned the lesson.

Imagine one of us, LBS is too down, gets too drunk and there is a convenient person around, and that person is married. The cheating happens. Does that define the entirety of who the LBS is and the LBS character or is it just circumstantial? I’m not saying it is right, just that we are human and sometimes things happen that are totally our of character.

I’m not so certain people choose to indulge in MLC. MLC is depression and issues with the neurotransmitters/chemical imbalance. Drugs, alcohol, depression all those things can completely change a person basic character. Still I think it would had been much better if the MLCer would have asked for help rather than become in-fatuated with someone else.

Of course many people have affairs simply because of character flaws and because they choose to. Or they did not choose to but also did not stop them from happening. But the thing with most MLCers is that they have never cheated or had have an affair until midlife. Some of us meet our spouses on our late teens and spend several decades with them. It is a little strange that they only get to the affair at midlife.

Thundarr, once a cheater always a cheater in the sense that since it had happened the person was a cheater. But in your case I don’t even think you were a cheater. You discussed the subject with your wife she agreed it may had been for the best. You did not go behind her back. I think what happened to you, getting together very young, putting the blame on the marriage, happens to a lot of people.

Trusting, was your husband always a “a liar, a coward and a cheat"? Or has he become one in midlife? MLC is far more than the affair. It brings with it a lot of other changes that are not present in regular affairs. Change in musical tastes, dressing young, getting along with types of people one would never get near before and plenty of other stuff. Was your husband “ simply and primarily a selfish creep” before or was he caring and committed to the marriage and you?

Chump Lady as for Dan Savage Monagamish he is not advocate people going behind anyone’s backs. He is talking about situation like Thundarr one or similar ones. It is not the same an open marriage/relationship. Check Dan’s definition of the term. I think you will understand what he is talking about.

[Dontgiveup]

I just read this thread and have a comment or two.  The blog is not really my style.  I understand it's a blog about affairs.  The affair is a symptom of MLC and I feel that many LBS put too much emphasis on the affair, which may hinder detachment.  I understand it is often the most humiliating part of MLC.  People have affairs all the time which are not MLC.  MLC has several symptoms.

I think the best line of the entire blog may be the end where letting go is referenced.

[Anjae]

DGU, don’t think the blog is about MLC, just about affairs. As for the MLC affair, well, it is the affair who brings in the whole devastation for the LBS. Emotional, financial, psychological. If the MLCer were to leave it would be bad but they leave, there is someone else, they refuse us money yet they spend it with the other person.

And, of course, they are parading OW/OM around town, living with them while still married at us. Let alone that, if we ever let them back we will have to forever live with the OW/OM ghost and the years they spend with OW/OM. That makes the affair if not the most humiliating, one of the most humiliating things of MLC.  Pragmatically the affair is hardly a foot note for a LBS.

No matter how much knowledge of the crisis we have the affair (or affairs) and what comes with them will ever be a foot note. To us it is the relevant thing. All else is MLCers internal issues and those belong to the MLCer.

I think we tend to downplay the part the affair plays and the devastation that comes with it. Yes, it is just a symptom but I think we would all be more or less fine is all the MLCer was just having to deal with their internal issues without someone else on the picture and the stuff that it brings.

[Dontgiveup]

DGU, don’t think the blog is about MLC, just about affairs.

Yes, that's what I wrote in my post.  "I understand it's a blog about affairs"

As for the MLC affair, well, it is the affair who brings in the whole devastation for the LBS.

Yes, I also wrote that it is often the most humiliating part of MLC.  "I understand it is often the most humiliating part of MLC."

Let alone that, if we ever let them back we will have to forever live with the OW/OM ghost and the years they spend with OW/OM. That makes the affair if not the most humiliating, one of the most humiliating things of MLC.  Pragmatically the affair is hardly a foot note for a LBS.

I never referenced it as a foot note.  It is likely I will have to deal with it as well at some point, though I have no clue to what extent right now.

I think we tend to downplay the part the affair plays and the devastation that comes with it. Yes, it is just a symptom but I think we would all be more or less fine is all the MLCer was just having to deal with their internal issues without someone else on the picture and the stuff that it brings.

RCR has a whole series of articles titled "Understanding Infidelity"

[calamity]

I agree DGU.  Thank you for your posting--I couldn't get my thoughts into words.  I was uncomfortable with the blog & the response on here as it seemed everyone was agreeing with Chump Lady's opinion.  I don't think anything about affairs [never mind mlc affairs] is as simple & straightforward as it seemed on this blog.

[Anjae]

I'm not agreeing with Chump Lady's opinion. If anything I'm questioning it. Affairs are not black & white let alone MLC ones.

DGU I know you've never referred to the affair as a foot note. I said that because we hear a lot: in the future the affair would have menst nothing. Yes, maybe... in the future... until then it is an elefant in the room. And I think even in the future it will be a very uncomfortable issue.

I've read those RCR articles. I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a sympton, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.

Focussing on why her/him is kind of useless. If not X it would had been Y, because it is not about the affair partner themselves, but the consequences of an affair, any affair, are huge and the ones of a MLC one gigantic.

[FindingJoJo]

I've read those RCR articles. I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a sympton, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.

Focussing on why her/him is kind of useless. If not X it would had been Y, because it is not about the affair partner themselves, but the consequences of an affair, any affair, are huge and the ones of a MLC one gigantic.

I think for me the affair is just hurtful especially as it continues each day he shows no regard for our home.  H doesn't want D is very plain about that, he claims to be saving money, he claims he loves and misses me and he plans on coming back yet he is staying with a woman who has all the attributes of a prostitute ell worse because at least the prostitute gets money for what she does and values her worth a little.  I will never be a fun loving party girl who does women, several men and is very cruel about ruining people's lives and laughing about it, yes they actually laugh at me openly and ridicule me as I have been told. 

Sorry it is hurtful that I was replaced with that and while it is his choice, it is even more hurtful that because of it I reacted very angrily and lashed out for two weeks in a manner that I find it hard to live with because it goes against everything I am, and I did betray my husband by publicly humiliating him in a manner that I have never done before, nor would I ever do again but the damage is there because of his choice to have an affair and my blind fury and choice to act in a very cruel manner.  I hate that part of myself and will forever wonder if he never contacts me if my actions to his behavior was the true cause and not just MLC. 

It isn't even about sex as we were intimate and were very loving that way but our marriage was suffering due to his issues and yes due to my anger with my life at the time and neither of us were meeting each others emotional needs.  I hated the home I was living in, the isolation and the negativity that surrounded me and I have had to admit that I turned away into myself and stopped being fun due to the situation we were in.  Too bad it took him leaving me to get a backbone, find my own happiness, break my heart to have a heart again, find my faith and love of life again only to realize that I can do nothing but trust in God that one day my H will return. 

[Chump Lady]

Affairs are not black & white let alone MLC ones.

Affairs are wrong. I think that is pretty black and white. I can't think of any occasion when deceiving your spouse to screw around is an okay thing.

Whether or not a person reconciles is, yes, not black and white. Everyone has their reasons and cheaters show varying degrees of remorse and willingness to work on the marriage.

I have the utmost respect for people who have cheated who own their issues, do the hard, hard work to win back trust, humble themselves, and do therapy and fight for their marriage. IMO these people are a minority.

Many stay mired in entitlement thinking and manipulation (trying to pin fault on the betrayed party through blame shifting and gas lighting) and eat cake (try and have both), which you can attribute to neurotransmitters, but I would say is a choice.

Few things are as depressing as being cheated on. The devastation alters your well-being and presumably your neurotransmitters. So do betrayed people get an excuse for revenge affairs?

If not... is it because they show greater character? Restraint?

[Dontgiveup]

I agree that affairs are wrong.....and that is black and white.

My main point of posting is the affair is not the only symptom of MLC.  MLC is about deep issues.  I believe affairs are more common by themselves than is MLC.