[Finding Hope]

YEP, my h still in the guilt phase. His whole life  Never,ever did an apology come without the BUT !!!!!!
FH

[LettingGo]

I totally get what Stayed is saying..... I have heard a lot of SINCERE "I'm sorry" talk.... it is sincere... but it has LITTLE to do with ME, and EVERYTHING to do with HIM.... he is SORRY that hurting me makes him feel so guilty, because he LOVES me and hates that he is hurting me.... BUT..... and then here comes the blame..... that is NOT reconciling!!! As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....

I suspect that it is no different with the MLCer than it is with ANYONE as far as an apology goes..... except for the magnitude of the betrayal, a real apology has to do with NEVER wanting to go down that path again... recognizing the horror.... for all involved.

My husband has ALSO never been able to make an apology without a "but" attached... he is Catholic, and no offense... but I have seen this phenomenon attached to "Catholic Guilt"... who knows?? My husband used to have an annoying habit of, when I would apologize for some ERROR (not slight, not trespass.... but ERROR... "Oh, you know what, honey??? You're RIGHT!!! School DOES start on the first!!!" he would declare "It's okay... I FORGIVE YOU!!!" WTH? BUT, this was LEARNED behavior from his FOO, so I can BLAME THEM!!! He parrots what he HEARD growing up!! MISTAKES WERE FORBIDDEN!!! MISTAKES were something you needed to be "forgiven" for... WTH?

[kikki]

As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....

From casual observation of other's stories , it seems to take about a year from when the OW/OM is finally rejected and the MLCer coming home - to when it seems to start shifting from guilt to remorse. 
Hats off to you all who are struggling through this time.  It doesn't look like a walk in the park.

[stayed]

  Can you elaborate on when your husband finally turned to remorse? How did he make his way back into your life? Your home?).  But I guess my question is in reference to the fact that what are the signs that your husband gave to you that he wanted to come back home and try? How long after BD was it for you? I am just curious how it looked...was it when his guilt changed to remorse?

JAG, the truth is my dear, THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING, when they are FINALLY sincere!  My h said throughout his whole deception, that he loved me, he didn't know why he was doing this to the kids and I, begged me (them) to be patient, that he would work through this, in time!  He kept pleading (can sound so sincere, but was in fact just a good ploy, which he knew appealed to my sincere "concern" for his well being... did I mention how MANIPULATIVE they are), PLEASE, give me more time... I will FIX THIS!  That was my hub's big thing, I will FIX THIS! 

Truthfully JAG, LettingGo, describes it the best!

I totally get what Stayed is saying..... I have heard a lot of SINCERE "I'm sorry" talk.... it is sincere... but it has LITTLE to do with ME, and EVERYTHING to do with HIM.... he is SORRY that hurting me makes him feel so guilty,  Bingo!!!  he is sorry because it makes him feel so guilty... there is the REAL TRUTH!!! because he LOVES me and hates that he is hurting me.... BUT..... and then here comes the blame..... that is NOT reconciling!!! As I understand it, MLCers may want to come home, or be home for some time before they actually hit that rock bottom that shines the mirror into their face of what they have done....

I suspect that it is no different with the MLCer than it is with ANYONE as far as an apology goes..... except for the magnitude of the betrayal, a real apology has to do with NEVER wanting to go down that path again... recognizing the horror.... for all involved.

JAG giving you my timeline, wouldn't help you in any way whatsoever.  Telling you when my HUSBAND finally showed TRUE REMORSE would also be pointless.  Telling you how it looked, quite honestly, it didn't look much different then the other "I'm sorry", accept that they meet your eyes, look you squarely in the face and their attention is totally focused on you.  I knew my h was sincere when he actually said to me, "God Stayed, how did you survive that."  Even then, he slightly turned it back to himself because he added on, "I know, I could never have withstood what you did!"  Without a doubt that is different, because he was honestly reflecting on what this must have been like and of course like anybody else, can only work through it by wondering how we would have reacted in the same situation.

My h made many "false" starts.  Honestly, I didn't know if he was back for good or not.  I simply took the chance and tried it out.  This much I will tell you though JAG, it was a good 18 mos. before I saw TRUE, BLUE REMORSE!  I swear his whole goal when we first reconciled was to wrap me around his baby finger, force me to get over this and even SHARE some of his shame!  I know he was VERY confident that he could manipulate me.  Quite frankly, I am surprised he didn't as well, because I had always BOWED to his superior knowledge, EVENTUALLY.  I usually did some kicking and screaming but in the end would capitulate to his way of thinking. 

That was one of my changes.  Surprised him, oh yes.  Surprised me... double oh yes!  I had given him way too much POWER and CONTROL in our life.  I share myself with him now, nobody controls me now!  Nor do I control anybody either.  Don't want to, just want to control my own life, leave him and everybody else to take care of their own.

Hugs Stayed...

[wondering]

That's what I'm experiencing, my MLCer home way before he is able to feel much of anything.  My H is desperately running from rock bottom and facing anything he has done.  Truly hard to watch and live through.  What kills me is the false progress you think you are making then to be crushed when they regress back to the way they were 6 months ago or more.  It's so frustrating. I want to see some remorse, some rock bottom...hell I'll even take some guilt at this point...

[stayed]

Naaaaaaaa Wondering, guilt is like false labour... it just doesn't go anywhere!  The guilt only becomes anger and anger always ends up being directed towards whoever is closest and most tolerant... which mean you.

Kiddo... just back away, give your h all the rope he wants.  Let him hang himself with it.   You are still not directing this thing where it should be... which is YOU, my dear lady.  All YOU! 

Get healthy, happy, in spite of his miserable behaviour.  There is nothing that bugs a person more then somebody actually appearing to be happy and content, when the whole objective is to crush and destroy you.  I know that sounds a bit harsh... and the MLCer may not actually have that much chaos and destructing in mind, but that is what their behaviour is doing.  Take that power away from him Wondering and find your own inner peace. 

See what you think of the whole sordid mess then.
hugs Stayed..

[angelgirl]

As always, so wise Stayed!!

Guilt is a negative emotion. MLCers don't want to feel anything negative. During his episode H was so angry toward me. Some nerve I had making him feel guilty by my sheer existence. During that time, he never said he was sorry, only anger at any hint of guilt. It was all about what was going to make him feel better, even if it crushed everyone around them. I think when i told him "I need to get control of this situation.." he responded in anger "now you know how I feel." Yes, i think he wanted be to suffer like he was "suffering."

Stayed is right, my smile and supposed tranquility (once I portrayed it to him) did confound him.

When he was cycling and wanting me to wait, and he was confused and all that stuff, he asked if he could ever be forgiven. I talked about how I viewed Forgiveness (if I did so it would be for my benefit and I was fully capable of forgiving him while still holding him accountable. Neither was mutually exclusive) and I said there was a difference between just feeling bad about what he'd done vs. whether he was truly remorseful. But at that time his brain wasn't working properly so i think he didn't really HEAR me then.

Later, when he came home, he felt guilty. He felt bad. He said I was too good for him. It was still all about him. He still had to show all his friends, OW, his coworkers, his family he was a good guy. He had to prove it to me. However, unlike Stayed's H, he did harp on it. He talked about it often -- what was I going thru? What was that?" Part of it is that he wanted to blame it all on the crisis, but he was realizing he needed to be accountable.

He wasn't until later he said crisis there was for sure; depression etc, but ultimately he was accountable for how he handled it. He hurt me; he hurt the kids; he misled OW; he hurt his parents; he hurt some friends...He started to measure the damage in real terms. In fact, he won't accept excuses either. Now it's not about showmanship; he really just wants to respect himself and he wants to earn respect from others. Or at least he's trying. 

Lately there is little talk of that time anymore, but if something reminds me of it, he is quick to acknowledge that I'm entitled to feel it and speak and it and want assurances. Those times are fewer and farther between.

very interesting discussion Stayed. Luv it.

angelgirl

[stayed]

Good to hear from you Angelgirl, long time, no hear... plus good stuff you are passing on.  I found this Guilt vs Remorse on TrustingMyHP's thread.  When I read it, my first thought was, "why isn't this one of the REQUIRED readings, that we are all expected to read, when we join this forum?" 

The newbies need to understand the difference and the rest of us, need to be constantly reminded that our spouses are LIARS until they really truly come out of the tunnel/ the crisis and they use guilt like a weapon to beat us up with and a shield to protect themselves.  Anybody who is trying to reconnect/reconcile with their spouse must remember this and do not believe a single word out of their mouths UNTIL they see SOLID, sincere, REMORSE!  Until then, it is all air/noise pollution.

Thanks Angelgirl.  Keep posting, lot's of needy LBSers here that need to know they will get through this, with or without their spouse.  Plus, be a better person for it.

hugs Stayed

[Freddygone]

Here goes, I have to post again and not be a spectator,
My timeline is that my wife starts emotional affair in February 2007 with what I know know to be a Narcissistic man who has Asperger syndrome. It is very sad but what can I do? It is his childhood problem which has destroyed my family.
Physical affair starts March 2009, I left for Switzerland January 2010. My daughters left home to be in Edinburgh, wife stays in Yorkshire.
In all the 32 years of Marriage (which was wonderful may I say, I thought she was my soul mate) and gave us two lovely daughters, there was no suggestion, although my wife was always a flirt and had many other 'interests' which were 'just friends'. I am a calm , tolerant guy, can you tell?

Now here we are on Wednesday 15th October 2012. My wife called me last week and wants to talk as the lawyers are taking all the money. Divorce was filed March 2012. We wait for the absolute but finances have to be resolved. At this rate the lawyers will have it all. Beware!!!
 She wants to 'talk to me' as she wants 'feel safe' for just a couple of days. She wants to stop the lawyers. I think I am meant to believe that she has split with her boyfriend? She arrives in Zurich on Friday evening for 2 days of 'talks'.

So this gives you a time line, married July 1980 and now here we are half divorced. She will be back with her boyfriend by Christmas (I believe). I am past caring.
In all the years I have known my wife I have heard the word sorry 3 times.

Guilt or Remorse?  Am I a sucker or just a nice guy who finally got wise?

We will see, but now I want this to end. The ones who have suffered the most are my daughters aged 23 and 26. We recover, we become stronger but they carry this into their lives.
If I were to reconcile with my wife now, no Guilt, no Remorse, my daughters would have no respect for me.

Think

[stayed]

OUCH!!!  Freddygone.  Truthfully my good man, I don't think anybody gets true remorse until they are totally out of the tunnel.  I can't imagine that your W has suddenly popped out this, unfortunately it just doesn't happen that way.

As for your daughters.  I think Freddygone, you and the girls need a good POW WOW!  It would be helpful to get their honest opinion about this situation.  Then I think you need to explain, that you have known your wife for many years prior to their births.  That a part of you will always love her.  That it is quite impossible to envision not loving her. 

I guess what I am saying, if you WANT one more chance to save your marriage and be with your wife, then you should tell your girls that.  You seem to feel that without remorse your daughters will not be able to respect you.  I am suggesting that if you were to honestly open up to your girls, explain about how unlikely sincere remorse will be here yet, but how much YOU would love to have your family WHOLE again, your girls might surprise you. 

Does any of that make sense?  The problem is Freddy, this is our marriages.. not our children's.  WE know how much they have been through, we know how devastated they are, and we understand that they will carry this for the rest of their lives... BUT ... maybe you NEED just one more chance.  If it works out, great... if it doesn't... at least in your heart, you know you did everything you could.  That is how I would suggest you explain this to your girls... I would be very surprised if they did not totally understand where you are coming from.

Whatever you do Freddy, your girls are going to be in counseling for a long, long time to come.  I know you don't want to hurt them anymore then they have been... but bottom line, YOU MUST DO, what you think is for the best!

Hugs Stayed