[Ready2Transform]

Fantastic points about forgiveness.  It truly is for us, and we need not withhold it from ourselves.  After I found out about the OW at BD2, I had a friend call me and say, "Maybe you'll be able to forgive him someday."  I told her, "I already did."  She really didn't get it.  We talked very little after that and haven't spoken in over a year now. 

Some people don't get that withholding forgiveness does not give you power or leverage.  It gives you pain.  It doesn't mean to put yourself in harm's way again, but it does mean that you can start to move on with your life, no matter what the circumstance.

Here's an interesting story I saw the other day about forgiveness in a horrible situation that transformed two lives:  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/13/from-anger-to-forgiveness-man-befriends-brothers-killer/?hpt=hp_t5

[FindingJoJo]

I agree R2, forgiveness helped release me from becoming an angry bitter person.  Besides I know that he is in crisis and to me I equate it to not forgiving my spouse if he had cancer.  Would I blame him if he had a more physical illness,  hope and he is sick sure it is a mental sickness with possible physical attributes like low-t or low serotonin and other factors but an illness none the less.  His cure isn't going to happen with a pill or anything like that but time is healing and that I can give because I need I as well for my healing from the pain he caused prior to BD.

[Freddygone]

I also agree. It was possibly 5 minutes after I discovered my wife's affair that I forgave her.

The problem I have is all the rubbish that has followed on since discovery. The lies to me and our children. I don't get angry, I am just amazed.

The extended family who embrace another man even when my daughters and myself independently will not have anything to do with him.
I see that this 'support' for a wayward spouse does not help MLC.  They simply feel entitled and though there is regret, ( 'I have not been happy since I met him'), they will not have remorse as they constantly get validation and head patting.
Relatives and friends do more damage after the fact in some cases.
Even my ex-wife now acknowledges (after she divorced me)  that most damage is / was done by friends and family. She is not happy, but is saddled with a needy narcissist.
Until they eliminate the poisonous predator there is nothing we can do.

[OldPilot]

Until they eliminate the poisonous predator there is nothing we can do.

IMHO the poisonous predator is just one more symptom of them being in crisis.
Until they decide that they are not going to be in crisis there is nothing we can do.

[Freddygone]

Yes, I agree.
The predator is only a symptom.
But the MLC is generally targeted by the predator because they are a receptive host for the parasite.  Low self esteem, receives compliments and assurances that they are wonderful.

The excitement of an affair makes them feel young again.

I used to tell my wife all the time she was beautiful, but what wife listens to her husbands compliments after 30 years of marriage. )))  No, she would rather believe some slick con man.

Now the con man is all she has. Like strong masking tape or glue (I am being polite), first it sticks to your fingers, then your shoe, then it is all over your house. )))

[stayed]

It doesn't matter who validates them or doesn't.  They will find SOMEBODY, a bum on the street to validate them, if they have to.  This is not about friends or family, or anybody... THIS IS ABOUT OUR SPOUSES... our MLC spouse.  There is something wrong with them.  They are mean, nasty, vindictive, selfish, self promoting, indifferent to anybodies suffering but their own. 

If nobody validated what they are doing, they would still be doing this.  I can assure you, her friends and family did NOT keep her in this relationship with this OM... she stayed because she wanted to.

As for forgiveness, I'm not sure we REALLY KNOW what that REALLY, TRULY IS... I think many of us THINK/BELIEVE/prefer to think we have forgiven because it makes us feel superior or more mentally stable or some such thing.  Forgiveness is complicated and just like MOST things in life... many, many layers.   

hugs Stayed

[Trustandlove]

I do agree with stayed that even if nobody validated them they would still be doing this, but think that they would continually be looking for someone to do that validating.  My H is a case in point, he has gone from OW to OW looking for this.    And from friend to friend, job to job. 

But the MLC is generally targeted by the predator because they are a receptive host for the parasite.  Low self esteem, receives compliments and assurances that they are wonderful.

The excitement of an affair makes them feel young again.   

And this rings true as well.  The original alienator in this case really did target my H, hard.  And H even said that she changed from a "caring listening person" (i.e. one who validated his actions) to a harpie -- so on he went to the next.  And the next.    And yes, I've heard the "I feel like I'm 18 again" bit as well. 

And all the while he is running from the guilt, which keeps following him wherever he goes. 

[stayed]

Good point Trustandlove, all of which leads straight back to our bat$hit crazy spouses.  Sadly, there are people out there who are just as nutso as our spouses, but I tend to believe that even if there wasn't our spouses would still "discard" us.... this seems to have more to do with INFLICTING pain/discomfort on another, I can only think it is to have SOMEBODY, anybody feel as badly as they are.  They definitely know how "connected" we are to them, so we are the OBVIOUS candidates.

Blaming everybody that comes into contact with our spouse, everybody who APPEARS to validate them, won't help our MLCer or us.  We have to get past this blame shifting and accept that our spouses had / have a FLAW... a big flaw. It must have always been there, just waiting for the perfect time to present itself.

What we choose to do is our own personal business, but BLAMING others for our spouses behaviour is definitely NOT a solution.  I found firmly placing this mess at the feet of my spouse was the only sensible solution, otherwise, I was going to be angry with the world and looking upon every person I know, or meet afresh with skepticism and distrust.  It really isn't fair to tar everybody with the same brush.  As it is, I look much more CAREFULLY then I did before... not a bad thing, but SAD none the less.

hugs Stayed

[Freddygone]

Wow......It just shows. I thought I had it pegged. But you have made me think.
I must read these last half a dozen post again and again.

Thank you Stayed, Trustandlove and OldPilot. 

Time for a little rethink.  I realise it still is not quite 'in focus' for me, even after all this time.
Great Forum this.........

[OldPilot]

accept that our spouses had / have a FLAW... a big flaw. It must have always been there, just waiting for the perfect time to present itself.

Oh I agree with this and our FAULT was that we enabled those flaws, swept them under the rug.
So a great place to work is to stop enabling, fixing, pursuing.