[stayed]

hehehe... hugs Stayed

[Anjae]

In the end, they heal better then we do.  For one thing, they ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY KNOW, they can TRUST US!  Can you believe that?  Honestly, you just can't make this $hit up!!! 

True. And they also forget of lot of what they have done. But we don't. We will forget some of what happened but not all.

Forgiveness is for us but, like Stayed said, when we think we're there, more to come. And when we are still dealing with a spouses crisis a lot may still come our way. A lot that will have to be forgiven. No need, no point, in fact, to rush to forgiveness.

We must take our time. And if our time will be twice as much as it took the Mlcer to have their crisis, so be it.

[Sunny]

Thanked Stayed for this, I read a similar article about guilt vs remorse and sent it to my H (yes not the best move), which he read and responded to, he said he felt guilt and remorse, tho of course not true remorse as he's never apologised. Anyway I think this is such a great explanation and a much better version of the one which was clearly written in anger.

[Lovely1]

When I tell my H that I wish I had never had his children, that I want a divorce, that he is spending money like crazy, he says nothing. Why is that?

[superdog]

No offence meant Lovely1, but how would anyone respond to another person telling them that they wish they had never had their children?  I'm sure you have heard a lot of mean things from him too i understand, but thats a low blow. Would you like your kids to hear that?

As i said not meant to offend you, but that one is harsh. Our kids are one of the best things to come out of our unions regardless of our H's actions against us.

Sd
x

[Ready2Transform]

I think if you're really thinking about initiating a divorce, which, if he's being financially irresponsible, may be in your best interest, that you should see if you can approach it civilly for the sake of your children, and move forward with it.  Threat of leaving him in hopes it will snap him out of it will not work with an MLCer - on the contrary, it will give them justification for their actions. 

I don't have children, but I also agree with superdog that no matter what the relationship now, please come to peace with the gift your children are to you.  They should know they have one solid parent in their corner. 

[NoRegrets]

When I tell my H that I wish I had never had his children, that I want a divorce, that he is spending money like crazy, he says nothing. Why is that?

Don't EVER EVER let your children hear you say that! Those are DEVASTATING words to a child. 

And, the advice you have been given here is correct--your H has nothing to say. If you want a divorce, then do it for you, but do NOT fling ugliness about your children. Think before you speak. Do not fight in front of the children AT ALL. Be their sweetness and their pillar. You don't need permission nor sanction from your H for a divorce, and you will not get it, anyway. You will not bring him closer by being ugly. I know first hand--I said every ugly thing I could think of to my exH, out of earshot of the children (I regret it, as I now know he is a sick man), but I never ever insinuated that the children were a mistake. They are not. They are my biggest source of pride and joy in life. Their father was a good father for most of their childhood. Do I wish for their sake that their father was a better man? Of COURSE I do, but I don't regret that we made them together.

[osb]

Just read through this whole thread - Voyager, stayed, Bewildered and all the rest of you, this is a deep and enlightening discussion. Learning a lot, thinking a lot....

[stayed]

It's a big subject osb... huge in fact.  We are all so unique and the way we express guilt, and remorse is unique as well.  The way we forgive, equally so.  I also believe that forgiveness varies on how much forgiveness is needed, how much face to fact time is going to be involved.  If you never reconcile and you have no children, or anything to remain connected, you can simply forgive him/her and move on with your life.  Never having to have another thing to do with them in fact.  If there are children, pets, business or something, then you need to be able to communicate, have some sort of a relationship that can be civil, cooperative and supportive.  Then the reconciled forgiveness, which I don't think anybody but one who has been through this, can truly understand what that is like, unless they have done it. 

I think it really help us all though to get other peoples perspectives.  I have found it so helpful as I am grateful that my marriage survived but sometimes, I forget to be more appreciative.  At the same time, I actually think it is my h who should be the MOST grateful and I admit, he often says that actually... and I am vain/little/still angry enough or something, to agree with him.  I do feel a "little guilty" at times, because I think I should have completely forgiven and if not forgot but certainly not expect any more REDEMPTION (lack of a better word) from h or anybody else for that matter.  This forum helps me to remember, that I have much to be grateful, thankful for. 

This is a complicated subject.  Not an easy thing to understand, let alone know exactly what it is we NEED to heal and fully recover from.  Sometimes I wonder if a full recovery is ever really possible!  Don't get me wrong, I feel good, really good, but this event still monopolizes a good deal of my head space, definitely not like it used to, recalling events clearly is slowly fading, which has to be a good sign, but it is STILL there.  Perhaps because of my desire to help others through this, but I don't really believe that, in fact, I think it has done more to eradicate the demons that haunt me, then to instill them deeper into my psychic.

Lovely, I'm sure you didn't mean what you said about regretting having his children!  I think that was just a moment of intense rage and something that you felt would TRIGGER a reaction from your MLCer.  If anything you now have PROOF of just out SICK he really is.  I feel the need to say, my children were the ONE THING that kept me grateful about ever having KNOWN my h.  I honestly believe that if we had not had children, I would not have been an RCR, my spouse would not have seen EVER AGAIN.  Of course, I honestly do not know that, because I was stunned when I found myself searching frantically for a site that BELIEVED Marriages that has suffered infidelity could survive, hehehe.  So perhaps, I would have been the same, with or without children.  I will never know, I had 5 at the time and marriages underway... new grandchild due towards the end of it... ughhhhhhhhhhh.  We just don't know do we. 

That being said, the one thing I absolutely know for sure, I WAS/AM/always will be, grateful for the greatest gift he ever gave me and that is our children and now grandchildren. 

hugs Stayed

[CallanG]

Thanks for the original post Stayed, it really hit home for me .
After frst BD day and the decision to reconcile H showed small signs of guilt but no remorse, he got emotional but it was mostly about how his actions made him feel not about how I felt . I had to comfort him . He was struggling with the guilt and I think after the initial shock when I stated to show some signs of stress the guilt hit him again , he could not cope and he ran straight to other woman .
Since then he has said he feels sad that I am sad but I think he is still stuck in the guilt phase and keeps running . He has hidden himself away in his new life and can't face me , he says that if he speaks to me it will give me the idea that things will change . It used to annoy me but I have to accept that he will face me when he feels ready and if he does show remorse I am likely to be the last to see it .