[wondering]

I definitely don't think it's all hormones or almost all men/women would have a crisis.  I can see that  stressful events can causes drops in hormone levels like Kikki said.  Coupled with FOO issues it can cause a natural mid life transition into a full blown crisis.  I bet if my H was tested in the beginning or during Replay, his hormones would have been all over the place.  Now that he is through most of it and is settled down, he just had them tested and they are normal.  But for some MLCers they may have a more chronic depletion of their hormones either throughtout their life or during their crisis.  There has been plenty of LBS's that have reported depression long before their spouses MLC or throughout the life of the MLCer so I believe there could  be a more medical reason in some cases.  Look at the degrees of how different women go through menopause to see that there can be huge differences in each person. If chronic conditions are not treated then how does one come out of their MLC if there hormones don't regulate themselves again.   Does it cause a much more severe or prolonged MLC?  I would guess it does.

Problem I see is even getting the MLC to have themselves checked out and then doing something about it.  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[Braveheart]

Thanks for posting this Thundaar. I'm gratified to hear this news that I am not a "Bitter Mysogynist" . Early on I began to suspect a hormone connection, especially after following a few "Womens's Only" menopause forums., I feel the same thing goes for post 40 men.  I read many stories of wives who over the space of six months to a year went from describing how lucky they were to have such understanding husbands, to not being able to stand being in the same room with them. The only thing I could see would bring about such a change would be mental illness or some sort of chemical/hormonal imbalance. I attempted to bring this up on forums with therapists and was roundly pounded for blaming my "failed marriage" on peri-menopause, even when I provided links to journals kept by women going through this, mirroring what I described had happened in my X's case and many others.

In hindsight I actually first twigged to the hormone connection when discussing birth control with my X over 24 years ago, when she mentioned "I don't like the way I feel when I'm on BC, I act like a completely different person, one you wouldn't like". Like most, I just stuffed that away in the memory bank, only reminded of it when it retwigged at MLC.  While men have been rightly vilified for MLC type behavoir for many years as "pathetic middled aged men chasing their lost virility", it's the "third rail" to even suggest similar behavor in women is anything but "Female empowerment" or some sort of "Spiritual Awakening"  by Therapists and phycologists alike .

[OldPilot]

I attempted to bring this up on forums with therapists and was roundly pounded for blaming my "failed marriage" on peri-menopause, even when I provided links to journals kept by women going through this, mirroring what I described had happened in my X's case and many others.

My PHD marriage counselors told me the same thing.
Two different ones.
They had both been through menopause and I must be the one that was crazy.

This is why the awareness function is of vital importance.

[Rollercoasterider]

Thundarr, this is AWESOME! Thanks--I'd love to hear what your friend has to say and even talk with her.

I think that MLC is a perfect storm. AnneJ has said that I don't believe (not quite the right word) in the biological component, but that's not true. I think it's the perfect storm of various biological issues--depression, hormones, life change-hormones--and FOO issues as well as what is going on in the life--triggers. Many things come together to create MLC and many disorders look like MLC--or have a few similar attributes like how at least in Replay an MLCer may seem bipolar.

Before I wrote my manuscript, when I was brainstorming structures and what to include I did have a Biochemistry section and that could be something that needs to be a part of the MLC & Infidelity section. It was not something I wrote articles for because I was still just brainstorming what I might write. But since the book is right now at the too long threshold there is no room. But maybe 2nd editions--of course there has to be a first edition first! I removed a few sections that I want back in--the Erik Erikson Human Development stuff is out and I love that chapter.

[OldPilot]

the Erik Erikson Human Development stuff is out and I love that chapter.[/font][/size][/color]

Oh me too, but maybe the book needs to point people where they can find more information.

[Thundarr]

For it it is not the childhood or possible lack of development that cause the hormonal and brain chemical imbalances but more the other way round. The imbalances bring forward the former.

Just a thought, or perhaps a question.......there are many people that are in treatment for hormonal imbalances......but they weren't necessarily experiencing childhood, emotional or developmental issues.

It's been proven that the depressed brain tends to focus only on negative thoughts that only serve to prolong the depression, and also filter out positive thoughts that may shorten it.  There is a biological/ evolutionary explanation for this that I have addressed on a previous Discussion thread but fail to remember at this time.  One of the most common symptoms of depression is a clarity of memory when it comes to unpleasant memories and one of the primary reasons for this is that they are filtered out of the pleasant memories which are pushed away unconsciously.

I don't believe FOO issues or any other childhood experiences are the CAUSES of MLC but the return to them is rather one of the symptoms.  We all have traumas in our lives and we all experience transitions but for the most part do not revisit those past traumas (or at least not to the extent the MLCers do).  As we age we develop coping strategies that help us to deal with all aspects of our life, but when our hormones/ brain chemicals go out of whack those coping strategies seem to as well.  One metaphor I can think of would be seeing all people as Iron Man with our coping strategies being the armor we wear to protect the soft human inside.  In most cases our armor protects us from the elements, or life experiences, but at times our armor is weakened such as when we are ill are suffer a huge blow to it such as the loss of a loved one or any of a number of life events.  Also, sometimes that armor is stripped away completely by factors beyond our control such as what we see with our MLCers.  It's not that the armor was never there but that something eroded it enough that things that normally would not have caused them harm does so and they cannot stop it.  Little things that we as their spouses have done for years that probably bothered them only a tiny bit if at all suddenly become full on cannon shots that overwhelm them.  We, not knowing what they are experiencing, either keep doing what we've been doing all along or maybe even ramp it up somewhat in the misguided hope that more of "us" will be just what they need.  We don't realize that our everyday actions are piercing them due to the fact that their invisible armor is not intact, and how would we know?  Only a  tiny fraction of us here even knew MLC was a real thing before experiencing it firsthand (a point the NP made last night) and once we did the damage had already been done.  So, now they live with that armor stripped away (RCR would say the armor is their identity, and the NP made the comment that XW was in the midst of an identity crisis) and have to find a way to piece together new armor to protect themselves.  So what happens when their armor is once again sufficient to protect them enough that they can actually focus on something besides self-preservation?  I believe for all of us here (and yes, Braveheart and AnneJ, I said ALL as I'm not convinced whatsoever that either of you would not welcome a reconciliation down the road and I love you guys for that knowledge!) are hoping that they regain the clarity to see us for who we really are and realize that we were never truly the enemies they perceived us to be.  Going along with what DGU has said many times, it is only then that they will be able to return home because to do so before their armor is restored enough would be far too risky for them.  I hope this makes sense and I'm sorry for going on a tangent here.

So, to summarize I have always maintained that what I've seen my W go through HAS to be biologically based as the forces at work that could tear her away from her children is beyond my comprehension.  I think some of the SYMPTOMS of MLC are revisiting past traumas and rewriting history but I do NOT believe these are the causes.  Granted, I would hypothesize that some personality types are likely more predisposed to MLC (possibly those prone to addictions, which we often see correlated here) due to their core selves not being as durable as those of others once all their armor (coping skills) have been stripped away.  But that is a discussion for another time.  As OP said, what is most important here is the knowledge that the medical community is growing more aware at an exponential rate.  The NP stated that she attends conferences and belongs to groups where it is not only mentioned but discussed openly so it's only a matter of time, guys.  And we will be able to tell our grandchildren we were there to see it happen!!!

[LoveMeMyself]

Very, very interesting and informative.  Posting because I want to follow along. 

Thanks Thundarr for providing all this wonderful information!  Great job!

[OldPilot]

The biological reason is the one thing that also makes sense for completing the MLC.

It is one of the main reasons I have had HOPE.
I like betting on gravity.
At least when I am stationed here on earth.

I think it is interesting that we are discussing the difference between causes and symptoms and whether you are correct or not, at least it is becoming a discussion in the rest of the world.

I have always maintained that there is a lot of science behind MLC.
I agree that it is nice to be validated.

[Dontgiveup]

I don't believe FOO issues or any other childhood experiences are the CAUSES of MLC but the return to them is rather one of the symptoms.  We all have traumas in our lives and we all experience transitions but for the most part do not revisit those past traumas (or at least not to the extent the MLCers do).  As we age we develop coping strategies that help us to deal with all aspects of our life, but when our hormones/ brain chemicals go out of whack those coping strategies seem to as well.

I believe it's the opposite way.  Coping strategies are part of the emotional and life stage development process early in life.  In hindsight I can see this more clearly now with my MLCer.....as well as half a dozen other MLC situations that I have deeper familiarity with.  I can believe the loss of emotional control could easily cause hormonal imbalance, but I do not believe MLC is a specific medical issue.

And I agree with your use of the wording "for the most part".  Most of us have adequate coping skills and will flow through life transitions without crisis.   


One metaphor I can think of would be seeing all people as Iron Man with our coping strategies being the armor we wear to protect the soft human inside.  In most cases our armor protects us from the elements, or life experiences, but at times our armor is weakened such as when we are ill are suffer a huge blow to it such as the loss of a loved one or any of a number of life events.  Also, sometimes that armor is stripped away completely by factors beyond our control such as what we see with our MLCers.  It's not that the armor was never there but that something eroded it enough that things that normally would not have caused them harm does so and they cannot stop it.

I think this is a good metaphor.....and if coping skills are the armor I don't see MLC as a medical condition, but rather emotional with undeveloped or under-developed coping skills.

Little things that we as their spouses have done for years that probably bothered them only a tiny bit if at all suddenly become full on cannon shots that overwhelm them.  We, not knowing what they are experiencing, either keep doing what we've been doing all along or maybe even ramp it up somewhat in the misguided hope that more of "us" will be just what they need.

I did not cause nor trigger my ex-wife's MLC.  In my time on this forum, I have seen many LBS deeply wounded wondering what they might have done to cause this to happen.  I encourage anyone to consider what RCR writes in Midlife Crisis Takes Time.

But please understand that no matter how great or small your flaws and transgressions, they are not the cause of someone else's Midlife Crisis.

(RCR would say the armor is their identity, and the NP made the comment that XW was in the midst of an identity crisis) and have to find a way to piece together new armor to protect themselves.

Yes, MLC is a crisis of identity.  The piecing back together reminds me of RCR's article A Midlife Metaphor with the example of Humpty Dumpty.

So what happens when their armor is once again sufficient to protect them enough that they can actually focus on something besides self-preservation?  I believe for all of us here (and yes, Braveheart and AnneJ, I said ALL as I'm not convinced whatsoever that either of you would not welcome a reconciliation down the road and I love you guys for that knowledge!) are hoping that they regain the clarity to see us for who we really are and realize that we were never truly the enemies they perceived us to be.  Going along with what DGU has said many times, it is only then that they will be able to return home because to do so before their armor is restored enough would be far too risky for them.

I think this is part of the Liminal process.

So, to summarize I have always maintained that what I've seen my W go through HAS to be biologically based as the forces at work that could tear her away from her children is beyond my comprehension.

I think we may look for the biological base because it offers the best opportunity for a cure.

I think some of the SYMPTOMS of MLC are revisiting past traumas and rewriting history but I do NOT believe these are the causes.

From RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
In Brief, MLC is about unresolved issues from childhood or adolescence. The MLCer must now resolve these issues and reintegrate the fragmented portions of the Self. Since these are issues of a younger person, they need to be resolved by that younger Self--thus the MLCer will regress in age.

[Thundarr]

DGU, I think you may have misread one part of my post that you referenced.  The armor being stripped away IS them slipping into MLC and thus becoming overly sensitive to everything around them, especially us.  I never meant to imply that we caused the MLC in any way but that once they are in it actions of ourselves that we see as completely non-threatening or normal are seen by them as being overwhelming and threatening.  I also like that you pointed out that biological factors give the most hope but I would counter that with the fact that psychological issues are often more easily identified and treated.  But, if there are not medical factors at play why does counseling not usually work?

OP, yes, this is one (of many) things you and I have always seen eye-to-eye on.