[OldPilot]

I really have to question the idea that waiting around for more than a couple of years is mentally healthy, it suggests wallowing in denial, especially if the other spouse has remarried or has had multiple partners after BD.

First of all Standing is not STILL.

If you are waiting then I agree that is mentally not healthy but I question whether running into another relationship is also a healthy sane way of proceeding.

Braveheart, I just posted on the subscribers side about one of my friends who has been divorced for 5 years, dating others and when he found out his ex was getting re-married he had a very bad day.

Do you think you can stuff all your feeling away and sweep them under the rug?
You are still relatively new to all this.
What are you doing differently that is better than what we do here?

[Trustandlove]

I, too, have a friend in RL whose H was away for 5+ years, lived with an OW for 2 or so of those....  he's been back for many years now, yes it took time, but they no longer even remember the MLC years.    He's the same, but better --  shows insight into himself.  He hasn't magically turned into super-H, but is himself, with all quirks and so on. 

I know of other cases personally as well. 

And as to finding someone else, even not thinking about the odds, it's not just about me any more.  I have kids, who would also be affected.  They're hurting, too.  And my happiness isn't their responsibility.  I've lived that with my own parents, even if in one case I like the new person, and it's still awful, even 30 years later. 

And I like myself now.  I'm healing, even if all this is still awful. 

On the other subject, my first thought when H left was 'brainwashing', as he'd been to a new age weekend right before BD.  Goodness what cans of worms they opened up. 

[Braveheart]

I really have to question the idea that waiting around for more than a couple of years is mentally healthy, it suggests wallowing in denial, especially if the other spouse has remarried or has had multiple partners after BD.

First of all Standing is not STILL.

If you are waiting then I agree that is mentally not healthy but I question whether running into another relationship is also a healthy sane way of proceeding.

Braveheart, I just posted on the subscribers side about one of my friends who has been divorced for 5 years, dating others and when he found out his ex was getting re-married he had a very bad day.

Do you think you can stuff all your feeling away and sweep them under the rug?
You are still relatively new to all this.
What are you doing differently that is better than what we do here?

Of course nobody can stuff their feelings away. We all know what the rollercoaster is like, you feel like you are doing pretty well, then something out of the blue triggers you.  I think in my case I had the advantage of having worked in Rehab for addictions. I recognized some similarities in how I was reacting to the loss of my wife and what I had experienced with clients and their families. Once I got over the initial shock of it all I put into action all I had learned in that field toward my own recovery. One thing I learned early in that field was that the addict was on their own journey and had to find their own bottom, anything you did that enabled them only delayed the the timing of the bottoming out.

As hard as it was I went as NC as possible when kids are involved, examined my own faults and have worked very hard on them. The only contact I have with my X is emails about joint assets and setting up visitation for the kids. I told all friends and family right out of the gate I had offered any and all routes to save the marriage and she had no interest in doing any of it . I told the kids that I didn't need to know any details about what their Mom was doing unless it was clear she was a danger to herself or themselves.

Strangly enough it's been my kids (now 15 and 21) and my inlaws that have pushed me more than anyone else to get on with my life, they claim they no longer recognize their mother/daughter and by her actions can't see any evidence she deserves a second chance with me.

[OldPilot]

Strangly enough it's been my kids (now 15 and 21) and my inlaws that have pushed me more than anyone else to get on with my life, they claim they no longer recognize their mother/daughter and by her actions can't see any evidence she deserves a second chance with me.

I wouldn't expect this early in MLC for her to be any different.

RCR wrote a series last winter about STANDING that perfectly says what I think

Have you read it?
Here is the first one.(there are links to the rest of the series here too.)
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1346

[Rollercoasterider]

...we are giving them false hope if we imply there is good chance their spouse is coming back if they just stand long enough. One see's that repeated over and over again in forum threads.

There is a difference between implying and inferring. I can say something without implying a good chance of reconciliation, and yet it is out of my control if someone infers that is what I am saying.
I desperately want there to be a good chance of reconciliation and yet I know there is not and I have said that--more than just in this sentence. I cannot control what others say, feel, think or believe in their posts. And I am not going to coddle people into believing or disbelieving by adding disclaimers about there being no guarantee and the beliefs of posters and even moderators may not be those of The Hero's Spouse all over the place--too much of either could be subliminal or hypnotic and people need to figure it out for themselves.
My goal is to change the odds. Will I? Shrug, I know it's a big goal and that I may not change them overall, but maybe I can change them for the people that read my site and maybe even more for those who participate here on the forum.
I also hope that I can change the relational dynamics of couples after divorce. Standing may or may not create more conflict during a divorce process since a Stander may be seen as the obstacle in the MLCer's path. But the Unconditionals are powerful tools to reconciling something cordial or at least something that is not high-conflict and contentious.

You are absolutely correct that there are few reconciliations. and of course there are the BLAH BLAH BLAH reasons/excuses for that about this being a new forum (we can't keep using the forever) and about how some in reconciliation aren't posting anymore. I've read the statistic about 10% of exes remarrying each other as well and to me that is high--not too high I don't know the collection parameters, but high as in good news. Not all MLC situations go to divorce and so that statistic does not translate into a 10% reconciliation rate for all LBSs. Maybe it is (or maybe it isn’t) higher for those situations that do not get to divorce. Even if it's the same (10% reconciliation for those situations that do not go to divorce within the first few years) and the 10% rate after divorce also applies to our MLC situation, that would be a 20% reconciliation rate which I personally think is a lot higher than the hopeless feeling of 1 in a million many feel as newbies.

False hope is keeping open a belief in the possibility for something impossible--not improbable. So my usual example is about the dead puppy. Fido is hit and killed by a car, but you don't want to devastate your little girl, so you tell her that Fido was hit by the car and got hurt; he's at the vet now. You tell her that it is serious because you are trying to prepare her for what you will eventually get to in time. Later that day you may give her an update on Fido--but still not tell her that he's dead. The next day you break it to her that Fido didn't make it through the night or maybe he died in surgery.
Of course I think what most people may mean when they talk of false hope is unrealistic hope. Is it realistic for me to hope--and let that hope lift me and keep me floating--that I will win the lottery? Of course if I have a ticket I do hope to win, but I don't bank or bet on that hope. I think maybe an Unrealistic Hope is one in which there is a low probability of getting the hoped for result AND the person hoping uses the hope as their crutch--their survival mechanism.
And you know what, you have a good point regarding that. We aren't trying to promote it here, but come on, some people have it and in the beginning--Still Kicking made a good point:

Newbies need hope even if the odds are bad.  I am only 9 months out but already I am seeing excitement ahead for myself as a single person and wondering if I want the old relationship back.  If you had asked me 9 months ago I would not have wanted to live with no hope of getting back that same relationship.  So false hope got me through to the next phase.

So sometimes that Unrealistic Hope may be similar to taking a muscle relaxant when the underlying problem is being masked by the tight muscle. You have to relax the muscle in order to expose the real problem. That's the same analogy and reasoning I give for talking so much about the information side of MLC. Some people won't let-go of their questions about the what and why and focus on their Mirror-Work until they get some answers--I was that way.

That does not mean I will intentionally give newbies information that is false regarding the odds or that I will even imply the odds are in their favour—above 50%. It means I won’t beat them with a bat regarding the low odds. It's something I say in the articles, but I'm not going to keep screaming it at them. I had a similar talk with the foster licensor the other day. Yes, I know that we are getting foster children and they may go back to their parents. Yes, I know this will be devastating. People have been telling me for the past 2 years so stop beating me over the head with it. (I didn’t say she specifically was beating me over the head, I told her it felt like that from the constant reminders over the years and I am going into this knowing what may happen.) We are adults here and at some point we need to trust that the message has been received and leave it to the recipient to accept or deny it. And an individual can accept statistical or anecdotal odds (since we only have anecdotes) and still not accept them for themselves. That's what I did. I was certain my marriage would reconcile. Giving that it did, does that still mean I was in denial since statistically the odds were stacked against me?

I keep hearing this about returning spouses, but they appear to be anecdotal cases of "I know a guy related to my second cousin who....." because I don't see much real evidence on this forum or any other of it happening.

UM DUH! And water is wet. Sorry for that, but of course it's anecdotal. We are hearing personal stories from the person who experienced it or second-hand as they pass stories on of friends and family. The forum is for stories; it's not a peer-reviewed survey with controlled questions.

I really have to question the idea that waiting around for more than a couple of years is mentally healthy, it suggests wallowing in denial, especially if the other spouse has remarried or has had multiple partners after BD.

Well, as OldPilot said (quoting me): Standing is not still.
Standing is not waiting and Standing does involve moving on. It just doesn't mean moving on to romantic relationships with someone else. My Grandma didn’t do that either. Grandpa died and she did not date in the 19 years she was without him. Does that mean she was waiting for him to come alive again?
Yes, I know that we are younger than Gram; she was 74 when Grandpa died. But the analogy still applies. A person can have a full life without being in a romantic relationship and I am not trying to encourage people to not be in romantic relationships. I am saying that if what you want is to be married and in that wanting you want to dedicate yourself to that with the hope or idea of your spouse returning to the marriage, then dating another person goes against that and prevents or makes your goal of reconciliation more improbable. Some people may want their spouse to return and yet be full certain that it's not going to happen—there want is wishful—and so that person may choose to then seek other romantic relationships.

A couple of years is 2 and yet I am inferring (perhaps incorrectly) that you were not trying to be exact by using the term, but simply offering a range 2 for some 3 for some, 4 for others... And yes I agree that 7 is a long time! Would I have Stood for that long? I can't say because it would have depended on how the situation was progressing. I think I would have given the Clinging Boomerang nature since he was pretty consistent with me about wanting to be with me. But would I have gone nuts, well I guess technically I can’t say but probably I would have. I also would probably be bald from having pulled my hair out (Clinging Boomerangs begin cake-eaters) and I might have some brain injuries due to the constant banging my head against a brick wall from frustration.
In Jim Conway's chat there was a woman who was adamantly Standing 7 years after he had left and quickly married the alienator. I should point out that she was a true religious covenant keeper, but even so she had more than just hope of reconciliation. She seemed okay in that she had a life and I was a bit more understanding if her because she was in her 60s and had been married 40 years at Bomb Drop—that's a long time to just give up on. But she kept watching her MLCer and reporting positive signs—he kissed her on the cheek when she left a visit one time. (And in chat I just read and rolled my eyes). I wasn't going to say it to her directly, but yeah a few of us talked about her in private and thought she was not being realistic. But to say it directly to her would have brought out her Monster—she had one—and she was a chat moderator. To say anything doubtful might have gotten us banned. A person needs to be a bit more subtle with some people and in some groups. Really, this group scolded me for using the term Monster—which I then defended, eye roll again.

I agree with you that for some even 2 years can be wallowing in denial, though I don’t think that is the case in general at 2 years. Of course by 4 years it may be more likely that a Stander is wallowing and at 6 years even more likely. But that may be more about how and why they are Standing and what are their expectations. Someone who is wallowing in denial may have an expectation of reconciliation—which is not the same as a hope or desire for it. Wallowing is not a Standing Action! We do have people who are just clinging. Maybe they have made it to and sort of through detachment, but that is still the lowest level Releaser. They are no longer connected to their MLCers emotional ups and downs and yet they are holding on. Letting-Go is the next level Releaser and they haven’t done it yet. We don't talk about Letting-Go in the same way we do detachment around here and I think in some ways that is because it is often a natural progression from detachment. But it's not always so. If someone is still panicking and having regular anxiety attacks 12 months after Bomb Drop (if they are still in the early stages of their Stress Response), they need additional help.

My anecdotal evidence:
Chuck is like he was before, but with improvements. His personality is there, but he is more stable. I no longer live in fear that my having a steady income is what will keep our marriage together. He now recognizes our relationship as something we do together, and that in life's challenges we are here to help each other through; we are a team. Two of us against the world—though I don’t like the being against part of that phrase! Before MLC he was fair weather only; there was no for worse allowed. So Chuck has matured and I have matured and our marriage has matured.

[OldPilot]

RCR reading your response what comes to my mind about ODDS.

There is a 50% divorce rate here in the US for first marriages, approx. 65-75% for second marriages.

So if I knew that when I got married 30 years ago, maybe the odds were against me?
Would anyone on this forum have not gotten married many years ago, just because the odds were 50/50?

I think not.
Maybe we give pause at entering another relationship.

But to Braveheart you didnt do so well at the 50/50, what are you doing that is going to make the 75/25 different?
Or maybe I am not understanding what MOVING ON means to you?

To me it sounds like you are STANDING, working on yourself, not worrying about your Ex-W.
Maybe we have different definitions.

I haven't seen anything that you have done that is different than what we are saying here.

[Braveheart]

Strangly enough it's been my kids (now 15 and 21) and my inlaws that have pushed me more than anyone else to get on with my life, they claim they no longer recognize their mother/daughter and by her actions can't see any evidence she deserves a second chance with me.

I wouldn't expect this early in MLC for her to be any different.

RCR wrote a series last winter about STANDING that perfectly says what I think

Have you read it?
Here is the first one.(there are links to the rest of the series here too.)
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1346

I read everything on this site at least once, and it's been a great help. My biggest beef is not against standing or people's reasons for it, but the fact that the odds of a successful R being so slim are not front and center gives the impression to new posters an R is just a matter of time.  Some will choose to stand for several years, others will move on as soon as the divorce goes through.

Myself, after all the work I've done working on getting my life back to a even keel, I can't see why I would want to take my X back now. There would be no upside to it, my kids are against it and I'd probably spend the next couple of years playing NSA monitoring her phone calls, emails/browser history just to prove to myself the R was real.  I'd most likely just feel like a spare tire, a fall back position until the next OM comes along, and that's no way to live.

[Slow Fade]

 

I'd probably spend the next couple of years playing NSA monitoring her phone calls, emails/browser history just to prove to myself the R was real.  I'd most likely just feel like a spare tire, a fall back position until the next OM comes along, and that's no way to live.

I have thought of this too Braveheart. How would I ever be able to trust again and would he be willing to endure the scrutiny it would take to earn my trust again.......

IDK. Time will tell......

[OldPilot]

Braveheart I hear you.

Can I ask how you are going to insure that happens in you next relationship too?

How will you know that you are not dating someone else in MLC or who could potentially have an MLC.

Or maybe YOU might have an MLC.

[Dontgiveup]

Myself, after all the work I've done working on getting my life back to a even keel, I can't see why I would want to take my X back now. There would be no upside to it, my kids are against it and I'd probably spend the next couple of years playing NSA monitoring her phone calls, emails/browser history just to prove to myself the R was real.  I'd most likely just feel like a spare tire, a fall back position until the next OM comes along, and that's no way to live.

So your "odds" of reconciliation are low.....you're not interested.  That is talked about frequently in different threads.

That does not mean your MLCer will not make it through her crisis.

From Stories and Human Behavior
The person who comes through the MLC tunnel may be vastly different than the person who entered the tunnel and different than the possibly multiple personalities in the tunnel. How your MLCer is now is not indicative of who he might become. An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.