[Albatross]

Lovebystanding, thank you of awesome post ! It is mind blowing. My mother in love have huge narcissistic tendencies, how deep, I do not know. Father in love is orbiter. Anyway, I recognize all consequences on psyche of my wife. Like co-dependence, low self esteem, perfectionism, passive aggressive, no expressing emotions.

[Lovebystanding]

Your welcome Albatross! Your Posts are awesome too!

In spite of having all the knowledge from this amazing site and the wonderful people on this forum,
 we are just not able to help our MLcers and that is frustrating. They are oblivious to our love and stand. All they care about is themselves and the OP.

Keep posting ...love ur insight

LBS

[in it]

Exactly... All they care about is themselves..NO EMPATHY...the former mlcer parents were exactly like this. And now this @$$hole has my girls and is convincing them I'm crazy..it's him and his unplugged mother that are nuts.

DENIAL plays a huge role in all of this. They deny deny deny they have the problem.

HUMILATION is a huge punishment for a narcissist. You have to figure out what scares them and MOST OF THE TIME it's being ALONE.

They have no FEED that way..no audience. NO CONTROL over anything. They identify with their victims. Their sense of self comes from those around them.

They need to be EXPOSED. There is NOTHING they will not do to keep the "mask" in place and switch when the mood suits them.

THEY FEAR THE TRUTH.

[in it]

WOW!! I just googled "how to piss of a narcissist" and I got the website www.narcissistatwork.com

But this part really rang true for me:

Q: What is “narcissistic supply”?

A: Narcissists are addicted to attention, even negative attention like humiliation and abuse; although they prefer adoration and worship of course.

 When you become a person who supplies them with that adoration, approval, attention or even abuse,  you become someone to whom they FEED off of—yes, like a blood-sucking vampire. They will SUCK YOU DRY if you let them.

Becoming the source of a narcissist’s attention supply is like becoming a walking, talking source of “human heroin and cocaine” and then trying to set up shop in a crack-house around 20 addicts going through withdrawal. Yeah. Hell on earth.


Q: Can a narcissist be “cured” or fixed?

A: NO. If you want to try, we suggest you go out and contract the ebola, AIDS and leprosy virsus’ “for the practice,” before tackling changing a narcissist.

 

[Snowdrop]

Well that's a relief to know there's nothing we can do anyway, except get out of the way,

Just saying on my thread how I read some things on narcissism recently and fits H totally.  His dad left his mom with two young boys, she remarries and never says a positive thing about their dad, ever.  Step dad an alcoholic.  Mom and stepdad have daughter, she is apple of their eye, while the boys are the children of the guy who left, so not looked at so lovingly as she hated the guy who left because "he was a womanizer and a drunk" hmmmm....... (not H, his birth dad, okay, yes H too). 

Those brothers where made to do lots of chores, lived poorly, cold homes, not much money, mom was a scrounger always on the take, step dad always drunk, and step sister the princess.  Mom had medical issues and always seeking attention as a child and feeling left out and different to her siblings, always needing surgery, etc. 

This all adds up.  H and his brother possibly grew up only being praised for what they did, and not who they were.  They were also made to sing etc in public which they hated.  Fast forward 30+ years.  H turns into workaholic, getting praise for being good at his job, and it becomes who he is.  He gets his "fix" from helping and being good at what he does.  Only able to really talk about work, not much else, very socially awkward, unless with peers.  Never took any blame, always someone else's fault, never his.  Would work for a company, part ways, and always their fault.

I wouldn't be surprised if he no longer works in that field, although what else could he do.  Then again, it isn't H anymore, it is the newer, younger, awful version, and one I'm glad I don't get to see often.  He is a mess. 

[Snowdrop]

Missed what I was trying to say in that as an adult, being a workaholic once again got him praise for "what he did" as opposed to getting praise outside of the home "for who he is/was"

[in it]

EXACTLY! It they try to get it from the OUTSIDE it comes from WITHIN!!!

[onlyjo]

great articles and insight from all of you.  family dynamic, what i know of it because there are definite strains of narcissism in h's family so secrets abound, fits h to a t--always in competition w/his sister, she was the badass, he became the pleaser, father was a womanizing narcissist, mother was/is a "shove it under the rug/if i can't see it or don't acknowledge it, it doesn't exist...sheesh, what a firetrucked up way to go through live/lives. 

yes, yes. i will not be sucked down into the whirlpool of narcissistic ridiculousness, and i'll try to keep my daughters out of the whirlpool as well!
onlyjo

[Lovebystanding]

Thanks in it,snowdrop and onlyjo for ur comments.
Info on Gaslighting which most of us have experienced at Bomb Drop.

 Gaslighting... A narcissistic trick
When your spouse Is TRYING to make you feel exhausted and confused to gain control
and power.

The emotional damage of Gaslighting is huge on the narcissistic victim. When they are exposed to it for long enough, they begin to lose their sense of their own self. Unable to trust their own judgments, they start to question the reality of everything in their life. They begin to find themselves second-guessing themselves, and this makes them become very insecure around their decision making, even around the smallest of choices. The victim becomes depressed and withdrawn, they become totally dependent on the abuser for their sense of reality. In effect the gaslighting turns the victim’s reality on its head.


 Definition:

Ambient Abuse (also called Gaslighting)
"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false or distorted information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception, or sanity - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own thoughts."


How do you know if you are being gaslighted? If any of the following warning signs ring true, you may be dancing the Gaslight Tango. Take care of yourself by taking another look at your relationship, talking to a trusted friend; and, begin to think about changing the dynamic of your relationship . Here are the signs:
1.   You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2.   You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.
3.   You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4.   You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend,, boss.
5.   You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
6.   You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.
7.   You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
8.   You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9.   You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.
10.   You have trouble making simple decisions.
11.   You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.
12.   You feel hopeless and joyless.
13.   You feel as though you can't do anything right.
14.   You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter.
15.   You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.

Remember, there is good news about identifying the Gaslight Effect. The good news is that knowledge is power. Once you can name this all too insidious dynamic, you can work towards changing the dynamic, or getting out -- take back your reality, and, get more enjoyment from your life and your relationship!

[Lovebystanding]

Those in midlife crisis display narcissistic tendencies,but to what degree....
primary (normal) type or secondary (pathological) narcissism or maybe somewhere in between.


Is There Such a Thing as Acceptable Narcissism?

primary (normal) and secondary (pathological) narcissism.

Primary narcissism is the normal desire to protect ourselves from danger and to preserve our own lives; it has a sexual component that doesn't preclude desire for others. People who suffer from secondary narcissism, on the other hand, "display two fundamental characteristics: megalomania and diversion of their interest from the external world -- from people and things"

When most people use the word today to describe someone else, they usually mean he or she has megalomaniacal tendencies: "feelings of personal omnipotence or grandeur". Our use of the word may imply personal vanity, which suggests a sexual desire for one's own body, but it's not the primary meaning for most of us. In general, what is written today about narcissism concerns the secondary type, focusing on a grandiose self-image and an excessive need for admiration to sustain it

To a certain extent, the desire to be noticed, admired and respected by others is a type of narcissism, an everyday narcissism that doesn't interfere with our ability to notice, admire and respect other people or to have meaningful relationships with them. Only when that desire eclipses everything else do we enter the territory of pathological narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder.

Healthy Narcissism as a Psychodynamic Process
 “In a broad sense, narcissism refers to feelings and attitudes toward one’s own self and to normal development and self-regulation. It is the core of normal healthy self-esteem, affects, and relationships. In psychoanalytic terms, normal narcissism is defined as a positive investment in a normally functioning self-structure.”

Healthy narcissism is the foundation to stable self-esteem that is not subject to extreme fluctuations. Failures, mistakes, stress, or even successes threaten 'fragile' self-esteem, deflating or inflating one's self-perceptions to an unhealthy degree. Connecting to an inner core of the True Self is essential for establishing healthy narcissism. In other words, connection with the True feeling Self sustains our worth in times of crisis, severe stress, and increases our capacity to grieve significant losses.

Though psychological theories might differ on the etiology of pathological narcissism, psychologists agree that healthy narcissism evolves from a secure attachment to parental figures in childhood. Adoring parents who, if they are doing their job well, slowly frustrate a child's self-centeredness. This sets limits on their selfish behavior and grandiosity. When parents consistently mirror our ‘specialness’, we believe we are lovable, valuable, and worthy. Our self-esteem will be less susceptible to extreme fluctuations in reaction to criticism or failure. Healthy narcissism increases tolerance for shame, guilt, and remorse—fundamental to social integration. Our narcissism is held in check by:

1-our capacity to empathize and introspect
2-the value we place on community
3-our ability to commit to others

These abilities restrain unhealthy narcissism thus deepening bonds to others and to the self. Using this understanding of ‘healthy narcissism’ as a developmental process, we can say that someone with a Narcissistic Personality may be unhealthy, but not necessarily pathological; i.e.: resistant to treatment, change, or cure. What we define as a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

A Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Clinical Narcissism
 In a clinical description, a person either IS a narcissist, or is NOT a narcissist. Qualified oprofessionals make this determination based on observation of at least five qualifying criteria out of nine listed in the DSM-IV. These nine criteria are subject to change as research clarifies criteria for pathological narcissism. A person with a suspected NPD will likely have:

1-impaired personal relationships
2-long-term patterns of narcissistic behaviors
3-ego defenses becoming increasingly rigid overtime
4-work failures (inability to accept limitations; difficulties with coworkers and bosses)
5-depression and/or suicidal episodes; addictive behaviors
6-extreme reactions to criticism and failure 

Anyone diagnosed with  a narcissistic personality disorder manifests unhealthy narcissism.  The narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis much like a medical diagnosis. In other words, you either have a broken leg or you don’t. To clinical psychologists, a person has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder or they don’t. If they have a NPD however, the narcissistic traits are pathological because their narcissism is unhealthy. To suggest that someone with a narcissistic personality disorder exhibits ‘healthy narcissism’ is a fallacy.Unfortunately, narcissist's character traits are viewed as valuable in a competitive and self-admiring society. This makes it even more difficult to ascertain the degree of someone's narcissism.