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Author Topic: MLC Monster BLOG TOPIC

L
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MLC Monster Re: BLOG TOPIC
#40: September 25, 2013, 11:39:22 AM
Thanks Albatross

Its hard to know who hurts more ..the LBS or the MLCer.
Let's face it depression of this magnitude must need treatment at some stage
even if it is at liminality.
As LBS we understand and can be sympathetic to the MLCer without excusing it.

U said u created for your W a calm home environment for recovery but since she was at home it may have been easier... at what stage shud an LBS attempt this bc in the beginning everything u do or say falls on deaf ears.

What advise wud u give to an LBS whole MlCer lives with the alienator and there is no contact.....how can one create a calming effect under these circumstances?

At 4 mths into seperation H said that when we both calm down we shud talk but
we are now almost 10 mths into it and nothing has happened.In fact I am in NC for myself... he interprets it as manipulation.

A mth before  H left he said he was ashamed at what he was doing but
after he left he said it is only 4 mths when i asked what he plans to do .So they are aware  it
is going to take a long time...how do they know  considering the depression they have?

Also u talked about ego State before and during MLC.
Is the splitting of the persona /shadow and ego the stage at which they begin to realise what they have done and begin to show remorse and reverting to the old person gradually?
Did u see this with ur W and what brought about this?....Was it the calm atmosphere u created or did she figure it out herself and at what stage?



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MLC articles:-

MLC,PD OR MORE(Blog Topic)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.0

NARCISSISM & MLC
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3917.0

My story:-
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3747.0

BD nov 2012
H 55 M 54
Married 25yrs

Initially : I don't want her and I don't want you.
PA with alienator 21 yrs younger mar 2012
OW came and took him Jan 2013
To find out if the grass is greener one must take risks.
I did'nt want this but after what I've done i will have to go.
I think I love her and I'm unsure about you.
If you love me you will have to let me go...I'll come back when I am old.
I want to have fun ..I can't live another 15 yrs with you.
WHY,WHY...asks himself.
When we both calm down we will talk...

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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#41: September 25, 2013, 02:14:20 PM
In fact I am in NC for myself... he interprets it as manipulation.


Of course he does; he wants ATTENTION !!

They don't realize we do it FOR OUR OWN PROTECTION!
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

L
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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#42: September 26, 2013, 12:16:09 AM
"""""They regress, believe me, I am the witness. It took so long time that she get back in present ego state which is closer of her ego before MLC. I can tell You more details about it, if You are interested.""""on replay thread.

Albatross I wud like to know more about ego state before,during and after MLC.Sounds interesting.
Also I have a few questions in my previous post .Wud be grateful if u cud shed some light on them.
Thanks
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MLC articles:-

MLC,PD OR MORE(Blog Topic)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.0

NARCISSISM & MLC
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3917.0

My story:-
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3747.0

BD nov 2012
H 55 M 54
Married 25yrs

Initially : I don't want her and I don't want you.
PA with alienator 21 yrs younger mar 2012
OW came and took him Jan 2013
To find out if the grass is greener one must take risks.
I did'nt want this but after what I've done i will have to go.
I think I love her and I'm unsure about you.
If you love me you will have to let me go...I'll come back when I am old.
I want to have fun ..I can't live another 15 yrs with you.
WHY,WHY...asks himself.
When we both calm down we will talk...

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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#43: September 29, 2013, 05:00:33 AM
wow This was so insightful for me. i hadn't read this before. So accurate in the way their depression plays out. The hormonal issue however, I don't get in my car because my MLcer is only 38. Andropause shouldn't be an issue, should it?
As a practitioner of Chinese medicine we learn that andropause is related to someone in their 50's or so? Anyway, everything else seems relevant.

So how do we as LBS respond to this depression. What is the best way to communicate with this disorder? Is there anything that we can do to help them in this painful process?

Thanks Albatross for sharing this with us. It was very useful to me. Knowledge is power....personal power Sw :)
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"Adversity is like a strong wind. It tears away from us all but the things that cannot be torn, so that afterward we see ourselves as we really are, and not merely as we might like to be."
Arthur Golden

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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#44: September 29, 2013, 12:52:20 PM
So how do we as LBS respond to this depression. What is the best way to communicate with this disorder? Is there anything that we can do to help them in this painful process?

Stay away from them..give them their space they will work this out.

It may not be the results WE want or expect but since they feel we are the cause of it we cannot help them.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#45: September 29, 2013, 01:09:17 PM
It may not be the results WE want or expect but since they feel we are the cause of it we cannot help them.

They haven't a clue what happening to them, so they can't help self, and nobody then can't help them because they cannot tell to someone what really bothering them. It is like dog chasing own tail. So, nobody can help them. They are ALONE in that journey. Because all of that MLC take so long time.
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« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 01:10:20 PM by Albatross »

L
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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#46: October 02, 2013, 12:13:06 PM
We all have our shadow but since mlcers do not like what they see in their shadow they need to project it onto someone as their personas have worn a mask all along and are
not able to sort these issues in their regressed state....that's the way i understand it.The persona they show does not match the shadow and therefore they need to become balanced through transition.

The article below on Marriage As A Psychological Relationship that Carl Jung wrote in 1925, made me think about my own situation......on fatal compulsion and a lack of free choice......wud like to share it ..... any comments / views?


Dr Bren looks at ..The Development of Personality (1954/1991), Volume 17 of The Collected Works of C.G. Jung, ...it includes an essay entitled “Marriage as a Psychological Relationship” that Carl Jung wrote in 1925 and was translated into English in 1926. Jung made a clear distinction about what he meant by “psychological.”

Whenever we speak of a “psychological relationship” we presuppose on that is conscious, for there is no such thing as a psychological relationship between two people who are in a state of unconsciousness. From the psychological point of view they would be wholly without relationship. From any other point of view, the physiological for example, they could be regarded as related, but one could not call their relationship psychological. It must be admitted that though such total unconsciousness as I have assumed does not occur, there is nevertheless a not inconsiderable degree of partial unconsciousness, and the psychological relationship is limited in the degree to which that unconsciousness exists. (p. 189, [CW 17, ¶ 325])

In this passage Jung equated “psychological” with conscious, and in particular, conscious about one’s self and their partner. He suggested that to the extent the couple is unconscious of their own and their partner’s psychology the “psychological relationship” is limited and in a state of primitive identity with others which he calls “a complete absence of relationship” (p. 190, [CW 17, ¶ 326]).

Next Jung directly called out the fool who things he is done, but has only just begun, suggesting that these relationships are formed through forces that are mostly unconscious which he likened to a fatal compulsion and a lack of free choice.

Subjectively, of course, he thinks himself very conscious and knowing, for we constantly overestimate the existing content of consciousness, and it is a great surprising discovery when we find that what we had supposed to be the final peak is nothing but the first step in a very long climb. The greater the area of unconsciousness, the less is marriage a matter of free choice, as is shown subjectively in the fatal compulsion one feels so acutely when one is in love. The compulsion can exist even when one is not in love, though in less agreeable form. (p. 190, [CW 17, ¶ 327])

Jung stressed, “it is the strength of the bond to the parents that unconsciously influences the choice of husband or wife, either positively or negatively” (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). He went on to state that, “the children are driven unconsciously in a direction that is intended to compensate for everything that was left unfulfilled in the lives of their parents (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). With this in mind Jung proposed, “one must know first of all the cause of the unconscious tie to the parents, and under what conditions it forcibly modifies, or even prevents, the conscious choice (p. 191, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). Of course, this is no small task yet Jung says no more in this essay about bringing these unconscious motives to consciousness. Perhaps he felt Freud’s psychoanalysis (They were still friends in 1910.) sufficiently addressed how to reveal these parental unconscious ties.

Jung further defined the unconscious “conventional marriage” as a “purely instinctive choice” and “an instrument for maintaining the species” (p. 192, [CW 17, ¶ 328]). Here he separates the biological purpose of marriage from the psychological purpose of marriage, indicating the former is collective and impersonal.

In second half of life the marriage begins to breakdown moving from passion and duty to an intolerable burden, “a vampire that battens on the life of its creator” (p. 193, [CW 17, ¶ 331a]). This is an important metaphor worth amplifying. A vampire is the living dead, casting no shadow because it cannot live in the light. A vampire feeds on the blood of the living which Jung cast as its creator implying the conflict between consciousness and the unconsciousness. “This disunity with oneself begets discontent, and since one is not conscious of the real state of things one generally projects the reason for it upon one’s partner. A critical atmosphere thus develops, the necessary prelude to conscious realization” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331b]).

This might be a good place to introject that Jung was entering midlife when he wrote this essay and a year or so earlier had a mysterious relationship with a younger woman/patient that was the talk of the little town of Zurich (Bair, 2003).

The essay moves into a discourse about a typical marriage between the simple-minded, the contained, the anima and the mind of complexity, the container, the animus alluding to women and men, respectively. I would be remiss in my feminism to not mention the arrogant chauvinism in Jung’s subsequent discourse, but at this point I believe most of us can set aside his outdated cultural views without discounting the importance of his contribution.

His point is that the contained usually is better adapted to the marriage, wholly dependent yet swallowed up by the more complex partner. While the container has one foot in and one foot out of the marriage due to the fact that a large part of her personality is left unseen by the simple-minded. Jung posited the simple-minded partner is “grounded on a positive relationship to the parents” and the more complex partner is “hindered by a deep-seated unconscious tie the parents” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331b]) and “burdened with hereditary traits that are sometimes very difficult to reconcile” (p. 194, [CW 17, ¶ 331c]). About the container, the complex partner Jung wrote,

These people, having a certain tendency to dissociation, generally have the capacity to split off irreconcilable traits of character for considerable periods, thus passing themselves off as much simpler that they are; or it may happen that their many-sidedness, their very versatility, lends them a peculiar charm. Their partners can easily lose themselves in such a labyrinthine nature, finding in it such an a abundance of possible experiences that their personal interests are completely absorbed, sometimes in a not very agreeable way, since their sole occupation then consists in tracking the other through all the twists and turns of his character. (pp. 194-5, [CW 17, ¶ 331c]).

In this passage Jung recognizes the impact the container’s complexity has on the contained leading to a crack in the idealized security of the contained. The contained is then forced to see the personality she has relied on is not dependable causing her to turn inward and find security there. The container longs for unity and undividedness causing him to turn inward upon realizing he cannot find it outside of himself.

Jung infers that one cause of infidelity in marriage is this longing for unity and undividedness suggesting, “a dissociation is not healed by being split off, but by more complete disintegration” (p. 197, [CW 17, ¶ 334]). As one’s outer world becomes more and more disintegrated, “all the powers that strive for unity, all healthy desire for selfhood, will resist the disintegration, and in this way he will become conscious of the possibility of an inner integration” (p. 197, [CW 17, ¶ 334]). I cannot help viewing these passages as a pale explanation of his own infidelity. As such, it is difficult to separate Jung’s projections from his psychological wisdom in several passages within this essay.

The balance of the essay moves away from the source of marital strife as unconscious ties to the parents into a discussion of the archetypes of anima and animus with no bridge connecting these two sources.

Next the essay moves into a short explanation of the psychological stages of development. He posited that, “psychic life is a development that can easily be arrested on the lowest levels” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 343]); and that few people “fall into deeper disharmony with themselves” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 343]), unless that is, social security causes psychological insecurity leading first to neuroses and possibly to separation, divorce or another marital disorder.

The essay ends with the marriage in shambles, man reaching beyond his limits “becoming a fool and a menace” (p. 201, [CW 17, ¶ 344]) and nature [psyche] is praised as being aristocratic and esoteric. This is not Jung’s best writing since at this point in his life he had not achieved enough distance from his own marital strife.
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MLC articles:-

MLC,PD OR MORE(Blog Topic)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.0

NARCISSISM & MLC
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3917.0

My story:-
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3747.0

BD nov 2012
H 55 M 54
Married 25yrs

Initially : I don't want her and I don't want you.
PA with alienator 21 yrs younger mar 2012
OW came and took him Jan 2013
To find out if the grass is greener one must take risks.
I did'nt want this but after what I've done i will have to go.
I think I love her and I'm unsure about you.
If you love me you will have to let me go...I'll come back when I am old.
I want to have fun ..I can't live another 15 yrs with you.
WHY,WHY...asks himself.
When we both calm down we will talk...

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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#47: October 02, 2013, 12:40:44 PM
EVERYONE HAS A DARK SIDE. The problem is BALANCE! When things like this happen the shadow appears and takes over.

Not true in my case but whatever!

But if you're spouse was loving and supportive before all of this happened? Whatever the cause or explanation is; they've lost thier way.

 And they simply cannot face the truth of who they are for REAL. (true in my case)

OR they have never played on the dark side much and think they've missed something. ..Not enough girlfriends in thier lives or sex or money or toys or whatever! ( again true in my case) JUST DISCONTENT!!

This is their ME TIME.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

3
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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#48: October 02, 2013, 06:01:35 PM
Latching on:)
31
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Hurting people hurt people :(

L
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Re: BLOG TOPIC
#49: October 10, 2013, 09:01:03 AM

Anima-Animus ...midlife transition
 interesting 2 video's below

According to Jung, one must get in touch with the Shadow and Anima/Animus before one can truly get in touch with the Self.

In Jungian terms, 'finding one's soul' or Self involves confronting the unconscious, and integrating its elements into consciousness.

Jung conceptualised the stages of the midlife transition as :

1) the breakdown of the persona (or identity);

2) the release of the shadow consisting of those aspects of ourselves which are repressed, denied, rejected; The shadow consists of the parts of ourselves that we usually find unacceptable. These are things we often are unconscious of but project on to others.

 And
3) facing the contra-sexual other: the anima, or inner 'feminine' aspect of a man, and the animus, or inner 'masculine' aspect of a woman.

Animus-Anima interesting 2 video's:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN47s0mPfRU&feature=plpp     Animus-Anima in Jungian psychology
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PjRQbJPULx4.                           Jung - Anima Projection


The mid-life transition or crisis can also be approached using a Myers-Briggs personality model stemming from the works of Carl Jung.

The stages are as follows:
1. Accommodation - presenting ourselves as different people in different situations, called "personae"
2. Separation - taking off the masks or personae we wear in different situations and assessing who we are under the masks; rejecting your personae, even if only temporarily, and feeling largely uncertain about who you are
3. Reintegration - feeling more certain of who you are and adopting more appropriate personae
4. Individuation - recognizing and integrating the conflicts that exist within us, and achieving a balance between them

Small nagging doubts may appear, perhaps followed by a series of dramatic, apparently irrational events leading up to great change. During it all, men and women ask themselves questions such as: Is this all there is? Am I a failure?

Jung wrote: “Not a few of those who are driven into the conflict of opposites jettison everything that had previously seemed to them good and worth striving for; they try to live in complete opposition to their former ego… The snag about a radical conversion into one’s opposite is that one’s former life suffers repression and thus produces just as unbalanced a state as existed before…”
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MLC articles:-

MLC,PD OR MORE(Blog Topic)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3987.0

NARCISSISM & MLC
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3917.0

My story:-
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3747.0

BD nov 2012
H 55 M 54
Married 25yrs

Initially : I don't want her and I don't want you.
PA with alienator 21 yrs younger mar 2012
OW came and took him Jan 2013
To find out if the grass is greener one must take risks.
I did'nt want this but after what I've done i will have to go.
I think I love her and I'm unsure about you.
If you love me you will have to let me go...I'll come back when I am old.
I want to have fun ..I can't live another 15 yrs with you.
WHY,WHY...asks himself.
When we both calm down we will talk...

 

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