[Zendog]

Ok first I'm going to say that I think most of these lists prey on people's insecurities. They can either justify hey my spouse isn't any of those or I'll never find all of those. I saw a copy of Cosmo at the store today and felt an urge to buy a copy so I could burn it. Not that I have anything against Cosmo. Could have been men's health. Just trying to sell someone's version of perfect to somene else.

That said, rank me in the honest and intelligent crowd, with a large helping of laid back and several sides of independence and confidence. I think from that all other things spring. Can you be a sensual person without confidence? Can you be loyal without honesty and intelligence?

El Ray, I would offer that I have a tendency to equate loyalty with subservience. Even after BD. I know that's just me. I want to earn that loyalty. If a woman is smart and honest, she'll figure it out and seek to earn my loyalty as well. Small actions. It's a lot like rebuilding that trust following MLC. Welcome to ground zero. Just hoping it's not too radioactive.

[in it]

I agree most things are linked to others but if you aren't honest? You are nothing.

But sheer loyalty smacks of subservience to me.

Get a dog.

[rover77]

my dog is loving and affectionate..but will lay on the couch with just about anybody...

[in it]

Well you've got a point there.. 

And some dogs will let you beat them and come back for more in the way of unconditional love.

 I interpret loyalty as;

If one person expects it without returning it whats the point? That's sheer loyalty to me. A one way street.I manage to encounter that more often than not. Respect and loyalty go hand in hand to me. No one is loyal right off the bat in any relationship. That (like respect) is earned imho.

If you are talking about loyalty in these long term relationships we've all been in (or are in ) some sort of trust may have been broken somewhere.  I'm not talking just physically. the breakdown of communication is a big one. Partners have to trust that if something is wrong they should be able to talk about it. This isn't always the case.

In regards to friendships? I consider myself a loyal friend and a friend to me is someone you can say anything too..talk about anything too and not fear rejection, anger, or judgement.

Sure we have fights, misunderstandings, big and small. But when things reach a level of understanding ( BOTH WAYS) it's resolved.

I've had one friend since I was 8. And they are not a relative. But they are female.

What's your definition of loyalty?..Anybody?

These mlcer are the ones who are running from whatever it is that haunts them. Be it mortality, unresolved issues, or whatever else seems to be the problem. I'm not blaming;I'm just saying.

I think some know what the issues are and would rather stick thier heads in the sand in the form of denial and blame everybody else, rewrite history, find a CLEAN SLATE, and move on, and others really have no idea what's going on.

Chemical and hormonal imbalance may play into it. There is a physical aspect to consider. But honestly? I don't see it as an explanation for the behavior on it's own.

[Braveheart]

Well you've got a point there.. 

And some dogs will let you beat them and come back for more in the way of unconditional love.

 I interpret loyalty as;

If one person expects it without returning it whats the point? That's sheer loyalty to me. A one way street.I manage to encounter that more often than not. Respect and loyalty go hand in hand to me. No one is loyal right off the bat in any relationship. That (like respect) is earned imho.

If you are talking about loyalty in these long term relationships we've all been in (or are in ) some sort of trust may have been broken somewhere.  I'm not talking just physically. the breakdown of communication is a big one. Partners have to trust that if something is wrong they should be able to talk about it. This isn't always the case.

In regards to friendships? I consider myself a loyal friend and a friend to me is someone you can say anything too..talk about anything too and not fear rejection, anger, or judgement.

Sure we have fights, misunderstandings, big and small. But when things reach a level of understanding ( BOTH WAYS) it's resolved.

I've had one friend since I was 8. And they are not a relative. But they are female.

What's your definition of loyalty?..Anybody?

These mlcer are the ones who are running from whatever it is that haunts them. Be it mortality, unresolved issues, or whatever else seems to be the problem. I'm not blaming;I'm just saying.

I think some know what the issues are and would rather stick thier heads in the sand in the form of denial and blame everybody else, rewrite history, find a CLEAN SLATE, and move on, and others really have no idea what's going on.

Chemical and hormonal imbalance may play into it. There is a physical aspect to consider. But honestly? I don't see it as an explanation for the behavior on it's own.

In cases where there really has been no serious isses within the marriage, it does resembles mental illness, which we now know is a case of chemical and hormonal imbalances effecting the brain. From what I've read a lot of these MLC women have said they "Just wanted to run away" from their life. Some got to the point just the sight of their husband appearing happy sent them into a rage.

[in it]

Some got to the point just the sight of their husband appearing happy sent them into a rage.

And this is just part of the reason why:

There are HUGE stressors women undergo that men will not ever be able to relate to. I'm not saying men are worthless regarding this.

 But when you've carried a baby inside your body for 9 months dealt with a physical delivery then the care of just one child? If you aren't nuts by the end of all of that..I have no idea what kind of parent you would make.

And OUR bodies change hormonally  EVERYDAY to provide that particular function. TO GIVE BIRTH. This doesn't make us some kind of freak..we can create LIFE inside our bodies with the help of you guys. We aren't a "pain in the ass" unless you would rather not be bothered to understand it.

Now when those hormones stop working things change..with some women A LOT.

For me six months and I was done thankfully..no hot flashes.. no nothing and that was in the middle of all of this crap. To try to blame hormones in regards to women's behavior is about the same as saying it for men.

And if men want to simply deny their testosterone levels MIGHT be a little low or anything else is just fine..I'd see more than one doctor.

In my experience there has NEVER EVER been anything "wrong" with any of the men in my life..ask them..they'll tell you. It's me.

And UNTIL I meet a real man that actually makes the effort to understand me?  I will continue on the path of being by myself.

[superdog]

Okay had to say this.

So everything in it describes about what a woman goes through to have a baby and all the after effects, which for some of us were severe. For a man to turn around and say he resents the woman for spending so much time with said baby or babies and that her attention is all taken up in their care. That they felt neglected etc etc. Omg is that not the most selfish thing that can come out a man,s mouth?

Too true, this is the test of a real man who will appreciate what his wife has been through and help her, not complain for themselves.

Okay, just sayin :-)


Sd
X

[elray]

A baby changes the relationship between a man and wife.  It has good sides and bad sides. 

When a man expresses resentment, he is simply saying he is not happy with the change.  Many, many humans react negatively to change.  Usually, its a control issue.  Maybe you can be lucky and find someone who embraces change and rolls with life.  That's the kind of guy I always tried to be.   

We had 3 children very closely together, and looking back, I can see she used the children as an excuse to hide and withdrawl.  I never expressed the resentment I felt about that -- I felt it was selfish of me.  We got thru those times, and moved on to better days (and full nights of sleep). 

But now that I see her hiding and withrdrawing again, I wonder if I avoided confrontation, and allowed a bad pattern to go unaddressed -- I certainly believe that I have a habit of avoiding confrontation to a point where we lost intimacy because I wasn't being real about my feelings.  We co-enabled each other in that regard.  So I'm not sure you want the man who doesn't express himself either.  Just sayin'

[superdog]

Totally Agree that kids are a big change, and totally agree that some can not handle change well. But....... When a man expresses resentment toward his own children, that's like the biggest betrayal ever. They are precious beings and to have the person who lay down and made those precious beings with you decide that their own needs are greater than those of a helpless child is a little on the totally selfish side. It makes you see the man in a very different light.

Just for the record there is nothing more attractive than a man who adores, plays and cares for his children. (Thunder take note!).

Confronting something is only confrontational if its done in a confrontational way, otherwise it's plain old sorting an issue out between two adults. I have always thought that its okay to say I don't agree or how i fel but always appreciate that others have their own opinion. Nothing to be scared of. And yip keeping it in brings about a whole world of problems. Ask my h !!,

Sd
X

[in it]

For a man to turn around and say he resents the woman for spending so much time with said baby or babies and that her attention is all taken up in their care. That they felt neglected etc etc. Omg is that not the most selfish thing that can come out a man,s mouth?

PRETTY MUCH!!!

He was yelling at me once that I put him on the "back burner" AH...HELLO!!?? I'm nursing  up half the night , the baby throws up all over me, I'm stressed to the max she's going to get sick, I hardly feel attractive more like a milk truck. Then have a SECOND ONE.
Babies that aren't sick are a blessing I cannot imagine a handicapped or sick child..(I have no idea how I would survive through that.)

AND then HE feels neglected??? GROW THE F*CK UP! I'll tell you I almost killed him when he accused me of putting the kids in front of his "needs".
Betrayed? yep I'm thinking about making it my middle name. No pity party intended.

But now that I see her hiding and withrdrawing again, I wonder if I avoided confrontation, and allowed a bad pattern to go unaddressed -- I certainly believe that I have a habit of avoiding confrontation to a point where we lost intimacy because I wasn't being real about my feelings.  We co-enabled each other in that regard.  So I'm not sure you want the man who doesn't express himself either.  Just sayin'

EXACTLY!!!! His problem was he didn't want to make himself VULNERABLE and look weak as a man... so he didn't express anything to me OTHER THAN BLAME!

Only once did he say to me when I gave birth to our first daughter " What a gift you have given me"

Now you two seem to have a handle on this part when the kids show up ..YES it's a MAJOR stressor for us if we are any kind of mother at all.

 If a major loss gets thrown in there the recipe for disaster starts to happen. It could be anything.

The sooner we accept it's life conditions that led to this? We'll deal with it better.

Right now do what's best for YOU and don't worry about her.