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Author Topic: MLC Monster their GUILT

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MLC Monster Re: their GUILT
#20: November 01, 2010, 03:15:46 PM
Mine was very nervous right from the start especillay when ow came into the picture. He'd pull in the driveway unannouced and stand by the car and talk he has only come inside once to sit and not for long.

That's when he told d17 that the relationship with ow was over and he didn't get along any better with her than me..so duh... who probably has the problem here. Since this ow is obsessed with him I find it facinating that she wasn't on her best behavior regarding his wishes.

He only cries with d17. And has once with d14.

 I have barely seen him shed a tear but I know he does. And I know he cries with his mother as she told d17 the night before  he moved the RV the ow lives on the back property (due to her selling her house like a dope) that he laid on the couch and cried all night.

I know he's racked with guilt.
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Is it ego or spirit that governs us to question the answers; or answer the questions?

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Re: their GUILT
#21: November 01, 2010, 03:48:43 PM
I really don't know if my H feels guilty as I have not seen him in a month.  When I do have contact with him either email or text (maybe once a week) the only guilt I see is when he tells me to tell our daughters that he misses them and loves them.  Of course he has yet to tell them himself.  I usually get angry when I think about how he threw us all out like trash.  But then I remember to TRUST & LOVE.  Being angry only hurts me and so I usually pray myself out of the anger.
I am learning patience but it is a long hard road.  One day at a time and I remind myself that anything is possible with God !!
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T
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Re: their GUILT
#22: November 02, 2010, 01:03:40 AM
I'm bumping this back up; I'm still thinking through the "healthy guilt" vs "toxic guilt" ideas.

For me right now it's specifically regarding kids; one son in particular -- we've agreed to talk on Saturday; I don't want to pile on toxic guilt so don't plan to tell him how hurt son is, am pondering exactly how to word what I want to ask/say about son, and how to see if he will take on more responsibility for him.

H often asks:  so what do you want me to do?, meaning:  just tell me to do x, y and z and I'll do it (sometimes with the added "if I can") -- he doesn't want to think of the things to do himself.  So do I push for him to think of it himself?  I've sort of been doing that, by saying that I don't have the answers, that I was going to continue as I am and what is he going to do. 

If I tell him that son has yet again had another major major tantrum I don't know what that will accomplish.  healthy guilt or toxic guilt?  H's reaction once was "oh, dear".  Another time it was  "I really can't come now, I'm at a dinner".  (that tantrum was over H not being there); he did say the next time that he wanted to do what he had promised. 

Do I just say that this is what happened and what does he think should be done?  or what he wants to do? 

The other situation is a general behaviour of son, which is basically manipulation and pestering, but in a sneaky way.  Do I take same approach? 

Question in this case is specifically related to guilt -- will one or the other approach (or any other....) pile on the "wrong" kind of guilt, and what is the best way to approach this to encourage the "healthy" kind of guilt?

Does that make sense? 

I guess it is also still asking about this, OP: 

 
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Do not give them any reason to project their guilt onto someone else.

OP, can you elaborate here?  Of course what you say makes sense, but perhaps some specific examples?
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H
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Re: their GUILT
#23: November 02, 2010, 01:35:07 AM
True guilt is not felt until they reach the awakening within Replay, and begin to see the damage they've done; like someone said the rose colored glasses begin to slip downward.

Healthy guilt is such they "own" their wrongs; eventually working through, and doing a true facing of their part in the hurt they have caused the LBS.  Doesn't come until later in the crisis; Depression or even as late as Withdrawal.

The stirrings of this guilt, plants its seeds in the Awakening process.

Before then, they are aware they've done wrong, and guilt is shown; but they do nothing but keep trying to cover it all up until it literally begins to catch up with them.

This is different within each person.

Before my husband began to "wake up" to what he was doing; he didn't "act" guilty at all about anything.

But AFTER he 'woke' up to what he was doing, guilt began to stir; and it evidenced as anger every time I got near the truth.  He knew he was doing wrong, but was trying to back me off, and trying to cover it all up.  Yet, it all caught up with him as the affair wound down.

I saw further evidence of guilt as he navigated through OW Withdrawal; and the questioning of himself within.

It was around that time that he started cleaning the kitchen top to bottom; then starting all over again.

As OW Withdrawal passed; and he navigated forward, the cleaning ceased.  THEN, as he went in to face his final fears the FIRST time; got spooked and ran backward into Withdrawal; I saw the kitchen cleaning start up again, as well as OCD behavior..the continuous washing of his hands.

After I confronted him to hold him accountable triggering his tantrum, I saw guilt come back, and the kitchen cleaning resumed; along with the OCD washing of his hands again.

I cannot exactly say what the cleaning represents except they are trying to "cleanse" something out of themselves by these actions.

I couldn't thank him; he refused to allow me to be appreciative of what he was doing...so I just went on about my business.

The guilt itself is necessary; because if they didn't suffer guilt; they would continue doing as they pleased, regardless of who they ran over.

It is ALSO a necessary component in reconciliation, should the relationship go that far, you would NOT want your MLC'er to repeat their behavior at a later time; so you WANT them to feel guilty for a time..it is also part of the consequences of their actions.

It is possible to run from guilt; but one cannot get very far, as it will catch up once again; becoming a constant companion, until faced.

It is also possible to carry guilt on the cuff; and suffer a great deal until the guilt is worked through.

Guilt is guilt, however it's suffered by the one who has done wrong.  Each time the MLC'er looks at the LBS, they are held accountable and that brings on MORE guilt.

I know you can't force them to suffer any more guilt than they have brought on themselves by their own actions.   Their guilt can be increased by the LBS forcing them to face their short comings; but not by much.

Nothing you can do to make them admit their guilt; most won't say much, if anything about their feelings of guilt; they are consumed with themselves, and what THEY have suffered; that is, if you allow them to get that way without holding them accountable.


You can try and hold them accountable; but you cannot "make" them see their own guilty actions, they must see this for themselves, and ONLY if they are willing to see....I think it is within the wording you would use that strikes a chord within them.

Maybe this will help.

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Re: their GUILT
#24: November 02, 2010, 03:09:41 AM
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.I think it is within the wording you would use that strikes a chord within them.

Thank you for chiming in, HB -- I know we can't MAKE them face anything; right now it really is just about the wording in any particular situation.  And I sure do know that in my case he keeps  on covering it up and running from it -- he's actually said as much, by saying that it is a useless emotion and he just isn't going to do it any more. 


So what are the words to use/avoid?

Some specific examples might make this clearer:

Version A:  "H, I would like to know how you think son should be approached about the way he doggedly keeps on pressing about something he wants, even in the face of having been told that I/we don't agree.  How he keeps on doing things on the sly, saying that 'dad and I went to check the price' of an item, even though I said I didn't want to buy him that item'."  (Son can keep behaviour like this up for months and months, and remembers things for years)

Is any of that good or bad?  it makes no mention of whether H thinks he should have the coveted item.  Is it good or bad to ask what H thinks of him having the item in the first place? 

It also doesn't ask H what he wants to do -- or tell H how I need to be supported.  Should either of those be mentioned? 

Other issue:  There are other things son wants, but if he were to get one of those for Christmas rather than this particular coveted item he would be horrendously upset.  How to ask H about that? 

I don't want this to descend into an r talk or an argument.  I don't want to bring up "well, if we were together we'd do this, but as we're not we need to do x", as it makes it seem like I'm OK with the separation.  Or am I wrong here? 

I'm asking all of these from the point of view of guilt; how to at least attempt to show him his responsibilities without giving him justification for what he is doing. 

And last, is it best to keep it to this specific issue, or should I bring up general S issues -- the psychological ones?   (S shows signs of depression....)  Perhaps only if he asks.....

And this:
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most won't say much, if anything about their feelings of guilt; they are consumed with themselves, and what THEY have suffered; that is, if you allow them to get that way without holding them accountable.

What in the behaviour of the LBS would be that which doesn't hold them accountable?  Some examples would be useful.....   I know I have always stated that this is his decision; is any of this applicable in the examples that I'm using, and how would that be done?  Is there anything specific to say (or not say) when talking about kids?

Thank you!


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L
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Re: their GUILT
#25: November 02, 2010, 04:50:15 AM
does anyone else have their MLC er kinda go back and forth between showing a bit of guilt/shame, and then right back to justifying all of their actions?

just wondering...this NEVER happened in the beginning, but the further down the road we go, the more I am noticing this...

example...I was without a vehicle for 3 months, H recently bought me one and was almost excited as I was, also seemed proud that he was able to do it...

now, he is using the fact that he bought me this vehicle as...He didnt have to help me, he was trying to be nice..etc etc...

idk...just a bit of whats going on here...

thanks, many hugs!
L
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2 years since he left... divorce was filed a year ago, nothing going on right now. Seems like he and OW are done...will take some more time! Seems comfortable being around me and the girls. Relaxed without her, but does not want me...or anyone else...all that matters are his daughters...

Devoted wife and mother.

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Re: their GUILT
#26: November 02, 2010, 05:54:59 AM
T&L

My personal opinion, take with a grain of salt or shot of whiskey.  When I tried to express what my mlc was doing to his D, it just backfired. He hear only what he wanted to hear.  What I had to say was crap in his mind, I was manipulating him.  I recommend not worrying about what guilt he experiences and just make what ever statement you need to make, clear and calm.  He is going to do whatever he is going to do, react the way he wants, and there is nothing that you can do about it. 
<<<hugs>>>
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j
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Re: their GUILT
#27: November 02, 2010, 06:10:08 AM
Mercury, so true !!  I know that is the part I need to let go of.  Whatever he/she is going to do or not going to do the choice is theirs.  The ending result will be on them.  We as standers just need to sit back and take care of our childrens' hearts and ensure them that the one parent they have left is not going to leave them. 
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T
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Re: their GUILT
#28: November 02, 2010, 06:15:57 AM
I didn't actually plan to say what his mlc was doing to son (or any of the others); I was just going to talk about son's behaviour and issues more generally. 

Right now I'm wondering if I want to have this conversation at all; I always have the option of cancelling.  Plenty of time to let that sit on the stove.    Otherwise in danger of over-thinking. 

And LNa -- he cycles between showing guilt and being happy and peppy in his life. 
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j
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Re: their GUILT
#29: November 02, 2010, 06:28:09 AM
T&L, I think if the sit is not dire maybe you should wait it out.  I know for myself it was driving me crazy not understanding why H isn't in contact with his daughters and I was going into analysis paralysis. I found I was backsliding from the strength I had gained.  I definitely find peace from NC, don't get me wrong it's the hardest thing I have to do.  If you can't go NC at least try Dim/Dark.  But for me I need peace in my soul to handle all of this disappointment.  I pray that you will find a little peace today and for me as well !!
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