[lawprofessor]

Hello All!

Moment, thank you for sharing!

I am sorry I am late coming to this discussion but if you all don't mind I would like to add my .02 to a few things.  But please remember that what I am saying is only my opinion based on my experience.  And Jae's part, I just pasted parts of the email he sent me last night so it's a bit choppy and he is pretty rough and gruff and blunt.  We don't mean to insult anyone, but I thought perhaps his thoughts might/would have something of value to add to the conversation.

First, as some of you know, I have my XH Genius in Replay currently and for the last years or so.  We have no contact.  I also have Jae at home, my best friend and Galapagos Turtle (SLOOOOWWWW) whose MLC lasted over 9 years.  He is now in recovery, awake, and viewing the world from an angle that does not include a bird's eye view of his colon.

I just knew when I read the first part, it was early in the final stages.  I remember Jae at that stage.  So many similarities.  It is also why I have not let Jae post on here as he has wanted several times.  He is just not ready yet. 

But, If I may, I would like to relate a few of the things that Jae and I spoke (emailed) about following his reading the parts.

When I asked him what he thought of the letter, his reply was "Sure I remember this part, when I was still part A**hat.  This guy is still not quite there, I don't think."

Jae and I were both bothered so much by this-

I asked him about the years of replay (i did not use this term with him), he said that yes while these years were filled with guilt and remorse, confusion, sadness and at times paranoia - he said that it was also a time in his life of great pleasure - that yes while he struggled with or rather tried not to struggle with his painful emotions - there were good times scattered amongst the turmoil - we as LBS's must try not project our emotional pain onto the MLCer and assume that they are experiencing the pain as we experience it or feel it.  He said that weeks would go by without him feeling too bad about things - we should not buy into the premise that the MLCer is in constant emotional turmoil.  He said that if he was not getting pleasure from his behaviors in those years he certainly would not have continued down that road for as long as he did. 


Jae said, this is just B*llsh*t in his opinion.  Yes, there is the definitional differences between pleasure and happiness.  But for him, he said, "The reason for me that weeks'd go by where I wasn't feeling to bad about things was because I was f*ckin MANIC, and to keep myself manic meant the pain would stay away.  I always knew it was there and if I was not in a constant state of motion and action and drugs and drinking and women and parties I felt the pain.  While high, however I did it, I didn't feel the pain and the squirrels in my head quit spinning me in giant circles, confusing me.  That was where the pleasure came in that cost me my soul.  And I had to crank it up farther and farther to keep the bad thoughts out." "But I didn't realize this until later in recovery than this guy seems to be."

"Let me tell you why I say he isn't far along and maybe wont ever get it.  He is still romanticizing the trip in a bunch of ways.  He still doesn't get it-the whole addiction and pleasure connection.  Any recovering addict will tell you that you may start out getting pleasure from something (but then the monkey is on your back).  You only need the pleasure cuz your covering over a hole in you where the pain is.  This sorta pleasure that is.  (The rest of the time the things that brought you pleasure before don't cuz they are not enough to get by the anhedonia crap.  Just not enough stimulation.)  "And you know why this guy kept doing those things?  It wasn't cuz he got pleasure, it was an addict has to do them to maintain.  Your always chasing the next high.  Avoiding the crash.  And ya need more and more just to maintain.  It's not fun anymore.  It is a 'has to do just to get by'."  "LP calls it exercising my bast*rd side, keeping him alive.  See the bast*rd has to be fed pleasures like women, drugs, drinkin, arrogance, fighting, whatever.  Ya don't keep doin the stuff, continuing down the road, to feel the pleasure, but to avoid the pain and turmoil.  It occupies your mind for a bit, like filling a whole with sand.  But when you stand still on the sand, you sink.  SO you have to keep moving.  Ya think, it worked for a minute before, so just need to keep on.  This guy needs to get real and get honest all the way with himself, fancy articulate tongue or not."

"And all that stuff about his exwife having less to be ashamed about than that guy does?  At that time, I was just trying to wrap my head around what I had done, the disaster of my life, my kids hating me, exwife gone.  Learning how to live with that.  So I started out thinking, I will own my part only.  But Exwife must have had some to own to??  Yeah, I'll say mine is more than half.  But hers is still there.  See there is still some depression there so I still blamed just not as much.  As time passed, I was able to see that more and more of the percents belonged to me.  I learned to live with that.  I had to.  It was real.  It's not my job to judge if Exwife has things to be ashamed of.  I have enough of my own.  Sh*t I barely have ashes to rebuild with.  And she did what she had to do to get by.  I blew her world and she did what she could to get by.  It would be a lot easier on me if she had moved on with her life, totally, fixed herself and all that stuff you talk about.  But she didn't.  I get that and it was her choice.  I also get that I slashed and burned her world.  I'm responsible for putting her in a place that she had to fight her way out of just to get by in the world.  And you know that she and I are tight close even now.  But she has nothing to feel ashamed about.  We do what we do how we know how to save ourselves.  She saved herself and fed the kids, not how I wanted, but it got done when I was in no shape to do it."

"This whole f*ckin sh*tty thing is not about searching for pleasure.  It's about filling the whole and avoiding pain.  Stay manic. Stay up.  Convince yourself your all that.  I mean who knew that all these women were just waiting to do me if I only got divorced?  Man, I was serious when I said that.  But behind that I knew that I was filling a hole where my self sense should have been. I felt that bad about myself." 

"About the Buddhist thing, man do I get that.  At the end, your looking for a new meaning, a way to live with and accept everything.  Your looking for peace and closure, and meaning.  Buddhism offers all that and forgiveness.  It becomes a new addiction for us I think to find peace.  Not such a bad new addiction.  My side of the house is all done in Oriental stuff ya know.  I built my zen room.  It's my own little corner of the world where nothing can touch me and kitty.  There is peace there."



(J changed to Jae for this post to avoid confusion between Moment's J and LP's J)

[kikki]

We now have three J's in the mix. 

Anjae's H is Mr J

Moment's friend is J

and Lawprofessor, your friend is also J.  As he is an introduction to this thread, can he be called something else on here?  Jae maybe, as we are not meant to use real names?
I'll change it to that, for this thread, just to alleviate confusion.  If you want it changed to something else, just let me know.

[kikki]

Interesting post LP.  Thanks also to J (Jae) for sharing.
I think Jae's description would fit my MLCer more from what he has articulated too.

It also aligns with Terence Real's description of male (covert) depression.

[lawprofessor]

Sure Kikki, that sounds fine with me.  I had not noticed 3 J's but I am making a mental note not to name a child J and not to date any men by that name either!


As to my last .02-earlier you all discussed whether the LBS can do anything to lengthen or shorten the journey of the MLC person.

I would like to cast my vote firmly on the side of YES. 

I have observed that with my own eyes in my opinion. 

Jae's crisis was lengthened by his ex-wife.  She never did the work on herself.  She is still the same woman that he abandoned.  She never got a job, never got a life, never healed.  She just found a string of men to take care of her and the kids since she did not want to get a job.  She refused to return to school to get a diploma or job training when I offered to pay for it.  She sits at home, day after day, lonely, depressed, and angry.  Plain and simple.  Another fact is that if she had done those things, I know for certain that they would be back together again.  He keeps trying though.  He tells her he does not want to go back to the old marriage, the old relationship.  Her response is always, "That is what I want.  There is nothing wrong with the old marriage." Jae has told me over and over that he kept checking on her to see what she was doing while he was gone.  She was always in the same place.  He knew she was waiting for him.  To him that meant that it was ok to keep on that path as he was because he could always go home again and pick up where he left off.  Each time he checked, he told me he got a trapped scared feeling.  So he ran farther and faster. 

When she and I talked about this, she told me she was glad he was in the mess for longer, that he deserved it, and he should be in h*ll until he comes back to her the same as he was.  She is quite angry at this time that he is getting his life together as well.  She said, "Oh, gee I am so glad he is having such a wonderful life and getting better.  What about me?  When is it time for me?"

Remember please, that his ex-wife is a friend of mine.  I have known her as long as I have known Jae.  I helped her get orders for child support from him and tracked him down to enforce those orders for her.  She and I go out socially together as well so I am not being derogatory when I say this.  It is just a fact.

And yes, it is more pressure for the LBS.  But just what in this journey has not been pressure for the LBS?  And what has been fair for the LBS???  Nothing that I know of is easy or fair for the LBS.

It is true that we did not break them.  We did not cause this crisis.  We do not have to accept any responsibility for it happening.  But, I also think we can prolong the crisis by our behavior and response to it over the long term.  It does not mean we have to do anything about it or take any responsibility.  Each of our responses is our own. 

Thank you for your time and consideration in reading!

[kikki]

Sure Kikki, that sounds fine with me.  I had not noticed 3 J's but I am making a mental note not to name a child J and not to date any men by that name either!

    wise woman

[Dagolark]

Wow, this exchange is a true goldmine. Thank you LP and Jae for your input! How interesting to get such an insight in the MLCer's mind.

I can definitely see the addict dynamic in Jae's description. Not so much in J's...

[trusting]

LP, thanks for posting your roommate's take on it.  I also have a Galapagos turtle who lives in my basement, wallowing away in his crisis.

"This whole f*ckin sh*tty thing is not about searching for pleasure.  It's about filling the whole and avoiding pain.  Stay manic. Stay up.  Convince yourself your all that.  I mean who knew that all these women were just waiting to do me if I only got divorced?  Man, I was serious when I said that.  But behind that I knew that I was filling a hole where my self sense should have been. I felt that bad about myself." 

This is my husband.  He self-medicates by staying as busy as he possibly can.  Manic is a great word used to describe it. I have long felt that it was because he didn't want to stop or things would come crashing down and he would have to be alone with himself.  I do get a front row view, and it seems when he isn't manically busy, he is noticeably depressed.

What you said about his wife's failure to work on herself as prolonging his crisis, does he feel it actually prolonged the crisis itself, or just prolonged the time until he wanted to move back toward her?   

I do know that I personally have changed so much during this crisis.  I am far more settled and independent than I ever used to be.  If my husband ever decides to return, he has a much better wife waiting for him (and I thought I was a good one before!).

[Anjae]

Thanks for posting Jae vision of things, lawprofessor.

Read2, does the letter J has a meaning? We now do have 3 J’s and all with lengthy, troubles MLC. 

quote author=lawprofessor link=topic=5399.msg346724#msg346724 date=1409001267]
"The reason for me that weeks'd go by where I wasn't feeling to bad about things was because I was f*ckin MANIC, and to keep myself manic meant the pain would stay away.  I always knew it was there and if I was not in a constant state of motion and action and drugs and drinking and women and parties I felt the pain.  While high, however I did it, I didn't feel the pain and the squirrels in my head quit spinning me in giant circles, confusing me.
[/quote]

Mr J was told me the same several times, but in a more concise form: he could not stop because if he did he had to think and face all he had done (is doing). He had to keep in motion.

It's not my job to judge if Exwife has things to be ashamed of.  I have enough of my own.  Sh*t I barely have ashes to rebuild with.  And she did what she had to do to get by.

Standing ovation to Jae. It really is not the MLCer job to judge the LBS. It does not matter if the LBS has, or has not, done the whole work, moved on. The MLCer cannot judge the LBS.

MLC high replay is, like Jae said and like we have talked about many times in several threads, pretty much like addiction. Higher and higher dosages are required to obtain the same effect, at a point almost no effect at all happens. The MLCer, like the addict, keeps running for more. But more only leads to bigger frustration and more addiction.
 

[Ready2Transform]

Read2, does the letter J has a meaning? We now do have 3 J’s and all with lengthy, troubles MLC. 

I can only look up jaybirds!  Numerology and typography are going to have to be someone else's arena.  Unless we're talking synaesthesia, in which case, my diagnosis is "green". 

In Hoss' moments of clarity his explanations lean toward Jae's too.  Said it feels like a hamster wheel, and that at the beginning of all of this, his emotions were totally numb.  When he slowed down and allowed himself to feel, the tears wouldn't stop, and it was literally about anything.  He described the plot of Captain America to me and literally broke down in the kitchen and I had to hold him and console him.  Once those emotions hit, he went straight back into the tunnel harder than before.  I see what he's avoiding, but it will come for him, whether he likes it or not. 

[xyzcf]

What I am feeling from these stories is that the length of time that it takes is indeed much longer than I thought at the beginning of all this. I see his replay behaviors still, 5 years post BD. It is still going to take a very long time, and indeed he may never make it through.

Makes me smile as I remember a conversation I had with a priest on our anniversary 5 years ago, the first time we had been apart in 32 years. I explained my situation and the priest asked me how long I would "wait'" for him...my answer was "forever" and I guess that has not changed for me.

These stories do help me to understand more, not just about his crisis, but also about my own journey. They help me to detach even more.

I see the "manic" lifestyle as well and in certain ways, I am guilty myself of filling up by days as full as possible and falling asleep dead tired at night. If I can have a packed agenda, I can push through each day much better. So in small way, I can see why the MLCer would be so "wild" in their lifestyle choices.

But, I also think we can prolong the crisis by our behavior and response to it over the long term.

This is something to think about, although the work that the LBSer must do has to be for herself/himself and NOT to try and shorten the crisis because it's not that clear cut. That is why I think that some contact with the MLCer might not be a bad thing for they get to see the work in progress.

This strength, this getting on with our life without their help might help them to see that they no longer take that number 1 spot in our life anymore. I am not sure whether that will change the length of time or not. I still think that there is an internal "clock" that may not be possible to move either ahead or back.

I used to hope that some significant event would "shock" him out of this but in neither of these cases that have been documented here do I see that and indeed, there have been some major shocks in my h's life that I would have thought might cause a change in his attitude.

I am not sure if life is worse or more painful for the LBSer or for the MLCer. Not sure that pain is even measurable in that way.