[Mad Hatter]

It is this fundamental difference (emotions versus logic), in my opinion, as to why there are less standing husbands, or we "give up" standing. We look at it from a logical / logistical view. we check off our list (just a short list example of the big ticket items):

- Made changes she complained about - check!
- Tried talking to her (usually from logic) - check!
- Am I trying to show her I do love her and care, but no results? - Check!
- Attempted therapy - check!
- Am I still supporting her financially / materially, but she is giving nothing back in return - check!
- She cheated on me - check! <------------------- generally a deal breaker with all but the most caring men!!!

Conclusion: I did everything I could; didn't work; time to move on. From this point, cut all emotional ties, it's a business deal, done! Yea, I know, it's MLC, you can't fix it. No kidding....I can't fix it.....logical & logistical answer, move on and don't waste the next 5-7 years of your life & resources!

POOR LOGIC!

You didnt even read what MLC was all about.

It was not about YOU, it was about HER!

So you did not do everything you could
You tried to FIX and did not LET GO.

YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.

OP,

You misunderstood my post!

It was a crude example showing pure logic! Not saying this was the complete thought process any of us went through! This is just demonstrating what I believe is the process many males go through that DON'T try to read or understand! In my opinion, the men that are here did try to do a lot more; they did / do try to understand! I have learned a lot about myself from this site and others and I have seen my own shortcomings and still working on some.

But many don't; they follow a logical process in my example scenario. That's why, in my opinion, there are way fewer male standers. The men here are the exception!

You are right; people do need to "fix" themselves first before moving on; It's sound advice won't argue that point!

[OldPilot]

OP,

You misunderstood my post!

It was a crude example showing pure logic! Not saying this was the complete thought process any of us went through! This is just demonstrating what I believe is the process many males go through that DON'T try to read or understand! In my opinion, the men that are here did try to do a lot more; they did / do try to understand! I have learned a lot about myself from this site and others and I have seen my own shortcomings and still working on some.

But many don't; they follow a logical process in my example scenario. That's why, in my opinion, there are way fewer male standers. The men here are the exception!

You are right; people do need to "fix" themselves first before moving on; It's sound advice won't argue that point!

So how do we turn this into a positive?
We are here to help each other, hopefully in a logical manner.

I totally understand that MLC seems to have no logic however the more I have studied it
learned about it, disected it, then I found out it is completly logical.

You just have to be able to drink coffee sitting on the ceiling, using a fork and then the logic is simple.

[ruggedendurance]

OP,

This probably isn't my place anymore.    Meaning?    I shouldn't jump back into this.

I have been stalking the site.........    My first impressions of the "man cave?"   It was generic and
"safe" for anybody that might be reading.......

I became somewhat encouraged by Hatter's post.   I felt that he was making a case for the men on this site.    He was pointing out some fundamental differences and.......... unlike you OP.    I read the entire post.

I agree in that we must move on and "EVOLVE"  if we are going to finish our lives with our MLCer or any other person in our lives.    We cannot remain the same as we were, if we expect things to be any different next time around.

That being said.    What I read in Hatter's post was a man's point of view and man's way of dealing with a subject.    We are rational and logical.

That!   Has been my biggest struggle with all of this.    When things become irrational?    When I feel that I am under attack?

I am genuinely pi$$ed............

When I imagine my xw spreading her legs for another man?

I go into a rage..................

That being said.....   I allowed myself to do that.    And......   It was necessary at the time.   

LOGICAL THOUGHT PROCESS!!!!!!!!

Any machine that holds pressure is designed with a "pressure relief" valve in it.    When it gets too high?   When more pressure will damage a precious machine?

Wa la!   The valve let's the pressure off!    The machine remains intact.   

The big question I have is this?

If a man cannot let off his steam in print?    If a man cannot find someplace to be a man?

Where does this steam go?

If we look at this logically? 

My xw is in crisis because she stuffed a precious little girl into the pit of her being.    My xw actually hates the little girl inside of herself.    I know this for a fact.

In the case of my xw?    The little girl inside of herself is now, clawing her way out.    Before it is too late.

Wouldn't it have been much more productive if my xw would have let the little girl have her say when the abuse happened?    Wouldn't she have been justified in destroying all of the $hit around her at the injustice of it all?    AT THE TIME IT WAS TAKING PLACE?

Or is it better for people.    Male or female to repress the emotions we have?     Become some kind of magically whole person.    When in reality we are ignoring actual emotions?     Emotions that are justified by the circumstances?

And.   If we deal with them now?    Wouldn't it be healthier than suppressing it and insuring that these emotions stay with us?

It is exactly this kind of "cherry picking" the posts that caused me to leave this site.

We can embrace men for who they are.    Or we can use all of our energy trying to turn them into something "safe."     Something that makes us feel better about ourselves.

AS.   I've invited myself in.......    I will let you all know what I am up to.

I am standing.   I have allowed myself to rage at my xw, God, MLC, the world in general.

I feel that I've purged myself of the very emotions that will destroy any chance of a reconnection.

I've gotten rid of the emotions and have been able to look at my xw with new eyes.    Honest eyes.

I have to make peace with everything that has happened.    I have to allow myself to process as it presents itself to me.

At this point in my journey.    My focus is on a little girl that was abused.    A little girl that has destroyed a 30yr relationship because she is not going to be silent any longer.

When the little girl has her say?    My xw is going to need a healthy dose of unconditional love and compassion.

Logically?    The little girl has been silent long enough.

[Mad Hatter]

I totally understand that MLC seems to have no logic however the more I have studied it
learned about it, disected it, then I found out it is completly logical.

You just have to be able to drink coffee sitting on the ceiling, using a fork and then the logic is simple.

Congradulations! You, sir have found wonderland..................

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EEW68X2Y5qQ/maxresdefault.jpg

[Dji76]

Op and mad, here is my thought process as I am planning on ending my standing next month after "only" 7 months... I agree with the process mad describes. I also know this is not about me, it's about her. I have worked on myself and continue to do so. One of the many things I learned how to set boundaries for myself. My w always looked at my boundaries as trying to control her, wrong, they were for me. She chose to comply and now blames me for being controling. My counselor has pointed out that during our separation my w has struggled with setting boundaries for herself while I have not. So yes, this crisis is about her but it's ok for me to say "my w sleeping around, gettin piss drunk and being a poor example of a mother is NOT ok with me." I dont want to be married to the person she currently is. That is for me, not her. If she ever gets out of this phase I would consider reconciliation. I am not going to live my life waiting for that to happen. It is hard for me to truly focus on myself while being married to w as she is now. There are also financial concerns but they are not the driving force behind my decision.
So here's my plan... And I'm open to criticism. Before I give details let me say I KNOW what I am going to do will likely result in the end of my legal marriage. We are scheduling a joint counseling session where I will tell my wife I love her and want to have a healthy relationship with her. I will own my 50%+ and apologize for what I did wrong. I will offer her my take on what she needs to work on but only tell her what those things are if she wants to hear them. I will then tell her my boundaries if she wants me to not file for divorce. Those boundaries are 1. Stop sleeping around and 2. There needs to be some structure to our separation. I'm willing to work with her on what that structure looks like. I will explain these are boundaries for me, not an effort to control her. I will then offer her time to think about things before answering.
I made it clear I don't want this as a marriage counseling session. I want a controled environment to relive my message with kindness and love. She is emotionally unstable and I fear doing this in private will go terribly bad. We are meeting with her therapist so she feels safe and so that there is a sane person in the room with me that she trusts should she chose to discuss what was said. If she chooses to not operate within the boundaries I am comfortable with i will end the relationship. MLC is about her, boundaries are about me. Sorry for the long post... Wanted to share my thought process. I'm open to criticism and figured maybe it would shed some real life light on how men think.

[OldPilot]

OP,

This probably isn't my place anymore.    Meaning?    I shouldn't jump back into this.

I have been stalking the site.........    My first impressions of the "man cave?"   It was generic and
"safe" for anybody that might be reading.......

I became somewhat encouraged by Hatter's post.   I felt that he was making a case for the men on this site.    He was pointing out some fundamental differences and.......... unlike you OP.    I read the entire post.

I agree in that we must move on and "EVOLVE"  if we are going to finish our lives with our MLCer or any other person in our lives.    We cannot remain the same as we were, if we expect things to be any different next time around.

That being said.    What I read in Hatter's post was a man's point of view and man's way of dealing with a subject.    We are rational and logical.

That!   Has been my biggest struggle with all of this.    When things become irrational?    When I feel that I am under attack?

I am genuinely pi$$ed............

When I imagine my xw spreading her legs for another man?

I go into a rage..................

That being said.....   I allowed myself to do that.    And......   It was necessary at the time.   

LOGICAL THOUGHT PROCESS!!!!!!!!

Any machine that holds pressure is designed with a "pressure relief" valve in it.    When it gets too high?   When more pressure will damage a precious machine?

Wa la!   The valve let's the pressure off!    The machine remains intact.   

The big question I have is this?

If a man cannot let off his steam in print?    If a man cannot find someplace to be a man?

Where does this steam go?

If we look at this logically? 

My xw is in crisis because she stuffed a precious little girl into the pit of her being.    My xw actually hates the little girl inside of herself.    I know this for a fact.

In the case of my xw?    The little girl inside of herself is now, clawing her way out.    Before it is too late.

Wouldn't it have been much more productive if my xw would have let the little girl have her say when the abuse happened?    Wouldn't she have been justified in destroying all of the $hit around her at the injustice of it all?    AT THE TIME IT WAS TAKING PLACE?

Or is it better for people.    Male or female to repress the emotions we have?     Become some kind of magically whole person.    When in reality we are ignoring actual emotions?     Emotions that are justified by the circumstances?

And.   If we deal with them now?    Wouldn't it be healthier than suppressing it and insuring that these emotions stay with us?

It is exactly this kind of "cherry picking" the posts that caused me to leave this site.

We can embrace men for who they are.    Or we can use all of our energy trying to turn them into something "safe."     Something that makes us feel better about ourselves.

AS.   I've invited myself in.......    I will let you all know what I am up to.

I am standing.   I have allowed myself to rage at my xw, God, MLC, the world in general.

I feel that I've purged myself of the very emotions that will destroy any chance of a reconnection.

I've gotten rid of the emotions and have been able to look at my xw with new eyes.    Honest eyes.

I have to make peace with everything that has happened.    I have to allow myself to process as it presents itself to me.

At this point in my journey.    My focus is on a little girl that was abused.    A little girl that has destroyed a 30yr relationship because she is not going to be silent any longer.

When the little girl has her say?    My xw is going to need a healthy dose of unconditional love and compassion.

Logically?    The little girl has been silent long enough.

First of all Welcome Back RE.

I did read the whole post.

The pressure relief valve, good point, RE I think you are making progress, good progress.
I have been at this for close to 6 years now, and sorry if the rage has left me.
Around 20  years ago I was always angry,
fuming mad, I would take it out on customers, suppliers, insurance  inspectors.
What was the end result of that?
Customers stopped coming in, suppliers didnt like to do business with me, insurance companies dropped my coverage or hit me with huge surcharges.

All that anger seemed justified to me, maybe I was in my own crisis, in retrospect I think I was.
After all nothing was working out the way it was suppose to.

Anger is OK, it does serve the purpose that you stated.
It is best to turn that ANGER into our shield,
to become productive and move forward in a logical way.

Anyways my .02 for this minute.

[ruggedendurance]

I have been at this for close to 6 years now, and sorry if the rage has left me.

I understand that everyone in here is in a different place.    Spiritually, emotionally, logically.    We all have our own views on what happened and why.   And.   We are forced to make sense of everything.

For you to make that comment suggests that you are "more evolved" than many of us on HS and probably, men in general.

The trap is this.

Just because it works for you OP.     Just because you have moved to a place of acceptance doesn't give you the right to demand that others automatically get to your place of higher understanding.

Cherry picking posts to voice your personal opinion suggests a certain arrogance....... and a lack of respect.

My only purpose in all of this is protecting a venue for a man to process his way through it.    Your way isn't going to be my way.

My way............... is not for everybody.

You yourself admit to having to process your anger........

How about.   Instead of forcing our opinions on others and manipulating a response by cherry picking?

We show the kind of compassion and understanding that is necessary for men to evolve?

If a man is jumped on every time he says something?    If his comments are "cherry picked" to put him in his place?     It is a clear effort by that person to show their own "superiority" and it is outright manipulation.

And that man?    Will tire of the bull$hit because that is exactly what he has been subjected to by his MLCer.

Just like MLC has stages it must go through.     An LBSer has to be able to process through each of our stages.

Instead of directing somebody to the "enlightened" stage that I am?

I would rather we celebrate that each of these men is on here and processing their way through it.

I would rather we celebrate that each man is trying to make sense of this madness and evolve.    Each one of us on here is trying to go against the norm if this world and find a reason to accept a special person back into our lives.

It is the "logical" norm that tells us to move the f@$% on.

It is the emotional that tells us to stand.

Once we find a balance in all of that.    We will do as we decide.

I am behind each and every one of the LBSer's

Stand until you are positive you are making the right decision for the right reason.

And.   YOU!    Are the only ones that will truly know what is right for you.

[terrified_in_TN]

...

It was not about YOU, it was about HER!
...

YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.

  Sorry, I have a problem with this.  If its about HER, why do we need to "fix" us?  The logic doesn't work.

I am NOT saying I am perfect, not by any stretch.  We ALL can do things to improve ourselves whether we are an MLCer, LBSer, or a happily married person who is lucky enough to never having gone through this.  There is ALWAYS room for self improvement.  But you can't say "its not your fault, you did nothing to cause this" out of one side of the mouth and say "you need to fix yourself" out of the other.

I STILL have not got that part since day 1.

-T

[Mad Hatter]

Op and mad, here is my thought process as I am planning on ending my standing next month after "only" 7 months... I agree with the process mad describes. I also know this is not about me, it's about her. I have worked on myself and continue to do so. One of the many things I learned how to set boundaries for myself. My w always looked at my boundaries as trying to control her, wrong, they were for me. She chose to comply and now blames me for being controling. My counselor has pointed out that during our separation my w has struggled with setting boundaries for herself while I have not. So yes, this crisis is about her but it's ok for me to say "my w sleeping around, gettin piss drunk and being a poor example of a mother is NOT ok with me." I dont want to be married to the person she currently is. That is for me, not her. If she ever gets out of this phase I would consider reconciliation. I am not going to live my life waiting for that to happen. It is hard for me to truly focus on myself while being married to w as she is now. There are also financial concerns but they are not the driving force behind my decision.

Very good points!

You cannot rationalize or apply logic to the MLCer or their crisis; you can however look at the situation and logically say "It's not my problem, but I am not going to stick around and deal with it either! I need to protec myself, kids, assets, etc!"

This is what I was getting at with my example of the logical thought process. Sure, everyone needs to work on themselves; this is a life-long process. But, eventually a line has to be drawn in the sand.

This is where most men differ from women; when we have had enough and it is time to draw the line, we cut out the emotions and use an almost complete logical process. We won't wait around and for the most part, once we make a decision, it's a done deal!

Like I said before, these are general statements and not all men are like this, but from some of the responses, I doubt I am very far off point!

[terrified_in_TN]

...

It was not about YOU, it was about HER!
...

YOU NEED TO FIX YOURSELF or never have another relationship again,
since it will be doomed to FAIL also.

  Sorry, I have a problem with this.  If its about HER, why do we need to "fix" us?  The logic doesn't work.

I am NOT saying I am perfect, not by any stretch.  We ALL can do things to improve ourselves whether we are an MLCer, LBSer, or a happily married person who is lucky enough to never having gone through this.  There is ALWAYS room for self improvement.  But you can't say "its not your fault, you did nothing to cause this" out of one side of the mouth and say "you need to fix yourself" out of the other.

I STILL have not got that part since day 1.

-T

I am going to add to this a bit because being frankly honest-it does kind of piss me off.

Unless your name is "Jesus H. Christ" we ALL can stand for some self-improvement.

Why do I have such an issue with this?  This is just MY personal opinion:

I have always had low self esteem.  Never felt "good enough".  Never liked "who I was".  You know what?  F that.  Its about time I started liking who I am.  I am successful.  I am nice.  I am not overweight.  I am actually handsome.  I am highly intelligent.  For once in my life, I LIKE ME.  I am a good person.  What I am not:  Perfect.  If you expect perfect to have a successful r, move on, I am not your guy.  If you want an honest caring person who won't stray, and will not run away when things get tough (within reason, I am not putting up with this MLC bs again-life is too short), them I am your man.

-T