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Author Topic: Discussion Discussion thread

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Discussion Re: Discussion thread
#90: August 03, 2016, 06:54:21 PM
I agree 100 percent with your post about NC V.

Unfortunately I didn't realize just how abusive the relationship was that I was in. I thought I had to tolerate the nasty things the ex said and the behavior they have due to the crisis..at the time I was living with him (especially pre and post divorce) I didn't realize he was having a crisis. Even after his job loss. I know he's been miserable to live with for years due to his selfish nature. Monstered a lot.  Criticized the crap out me. Gaslighting. It was just off the charts in the last few months I lived with him.Sent my stress level through the roof. That's taking abuse.

Everyone has to set boundaries and limits to how much control or pain or abuse they will put up with.

 IMHO there are quite a few LBS's that have to go through quite a bit to get it through their heads.  (raises hand)  And a lot of it is not necessary.  Sometimes LBS'a need to be encouraged to get away from them and go NC.
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Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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I've been meaning to do this for a while. I've found a few articles; this one seems like a good summary.

Basically, no one approach is enough to explain MLC, it's a mixture of several factors, including biological, psychiatric, social.

"This paper examines the emergence, reification, and dissemination of the “midlife crisis” from a sociology of knowledge perspective. Two decades of articles on the subject from both professional and mass media sources (n = 233) are content analyzed. Upon elaborating the various biological, psychological, and social psychological theories of this biographical phenomenon, we address such questions as how different disciplines portray the event, what patterns of interdisciplinary citations there are, and how these professional depictions lead into the mass media. The results suggest longitudinal declines in the frequency of reductionist explanations from the biological and psychiatric paradigms and increasing attention given to the interplay between social dynamics and personality structures. From this, a new sociocultural theory is posited, one portraying this subjective experience deriving not simply from age, but from external social temporalities. Specifically, we consider the particular cohort that most midlife research is based upon as well as the particular historical period when it reached middle age."

From http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-682X.1984.tb00061.x/abstract

I'll add this link only because it's by a neurologist talking about different types of crises in our lives, but distinct because of the social and physical changes in each period. So not one MLC, but crises, plural, along our lives, and we all have them. (This is not to minimize in any way the devastation caused by the radical changes we face when our spouse seems to change radically. )
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2225411015000528

The other articles I've found don't belong in this section on biochemistry and brain research; most stuff about MLC is either psychological or multidisciplinary.
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osb

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Re: Discussion thread
#92: August 04, 2016, 02:04:05 PM
OSB oh no! I am trying to imagine a support board for this. "Do I have a praying boomerang?" "Why an ashram down is an advantage to a Stander."
Did you say this also took three years? Did your aunt have any good advice for you?

 ;D  ;D  ;)  My uncle was always a bit of a fitness freak, but during MLC, became an extreme austerity nut - prolonged fasts, cold stress, meditating in stress positions, all kinds of nonsense you can only do when you're surrounded by like-minded misanthropes who want to mortify the flesh and subdue every healthy impulse. There's a sort of extreme-sport heroism in it (...um, hermit-cam??!!). Better than indulging the flesh with an OW, I suppose! But not by much. I'm not sure god really wants our blasted remains! By the time he limped home to my aunt, uncle was fragile as hell.

Some three years after my uncle's MLC burned out, my H started. My aunt was a tremendous source of calm for me. Kept telling me, "just deal with what you can control; your H is out of your hands, so simply don't let anything he says or does touch you". That felt insane initially (like any advice from this website, it took me some time to understand). Mind you, when my H finally phoned her - clearly back in his own mind - my aunt was perfectly relaxed chatting over the phone with him, and then promptly called my mom crying her eyes out, saying "he's back, he's back!". So maybe she wasn't as calm inside as she gave me to know.
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"- And this thread is not for MLC. And when we say MLC in a psychology/neurobiologic way, we are not talking about the crisis as an indentity issue, we are talking about the inner processes and functions that happen inside a person that result in the behaviours we see in MLCers. We are talking of how stress affects the amygdala, the immune system, the neurotransmitters, the hormones, etc.

Michael C. Kearl is a sociologist that works with sociology of life. The paper is from 1984, 1984 was 32 years ago (in neuroscience that would be the equivalent of 1000 years ago or so). The abstract of the paper reads "This paper examines the emergence, reification, and dissemination of the “midlife crisis” from a sociology of knowledge perspective." Sociology (of Knowledge or other) is not neuroscience.

Nora J. Johnson is a clinical psychologist from the University of Pennsylvania: "Nora J. Johnson, MBA, MS, PsyD Clinical Psychologist" https://www.pennmedicine.org/providers/profile/nora-johnson And the article has nothing of neuroscience.  Neuroscience articles and books talk about neurological process and functions (like some of the ones I mentioned above) and use neuroscience terminology. Of course there are several types of crisis. Below Johnson's article there is a list of articles, they include "Quarterlife Crisis: The Unique Challenges of Life in Your Twenties", "Death and the midlife crisis", "Later Life Crisis" or "Are You Having an Identity Crisis? The Search for Fulfillment". The articles are all about different types of crisis, but they are not neuroscience, biochemistry or brain research.

I think both your post and mine should be move either to the discussion thread on the articles thread.

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Re: Discussion thread
#94: August 04, 2016, 05:45:06 PM
Anjae, good idea because neuroscience is way above my pay grade.  I don't understand much about it.

I only know about MLC.   :)

I think neuroscience is simple.  ;) Now, MLC, that really is above my pay grade.  ;D It is probably the most complicated thing I ever come across. And one of the most bizarre. Or maybe it is simple, but the name it is known makes it difficult because not one truly looks into it in a proper research way.  ???

Velika, maybe the word bipolar should be part of the name? High Energy MLCers have two poles, depressed and manic, like bipolar people. Maybe Acute Onset Bipolar Disorder? Bipolar, of course, includes depressive, but depressive tends to be used towards unipolar depression, the one with only the depressive pole.

The neurological will affect the psychological. Think about stress. Or monthly cycle. Or peri-menopause. Or being pregnant. Or thyroid problems. What about the psychological, will it affect the neurological? Yes, that is why it is better to have positive than negative thoughts. The negative thoughts will negatively impact our way of seeing things, leading to a series of processes in the brain, leading to "seeing everything dark" = being depressed. Then, the vicious cycle will be installed.

The problem with No Contact is that, if the LBS is seeking reconnection and reconciliation, it may not be a good approach. But each LBS must do what is best for them.

osb, your uncle went to the opposite end of many MLCers. Rather than epicurean, spartan. His MLC craziness does not sound fun at all.

So maybe she wasn't as calm inside as she gave me to know.

Probably not, but your aunt was great in her external calm.
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"-
Yes, it does. Look at work by Dennett, and especially work by Damasio. Nothing to do with MLC, but all about the neurology of identity.

I was trying to find academic articles about MLC in answer to a request earlier in this thread, then restricted it to those mentioning neurology or biochemistry because of your earlier comments. I found none about the neurology of a MLC (it would be strange as its a social construction). Unfortunately I got distracted, posted hastily and didn't finish or review.

Quote
And this thread is not for MLC.
Michael C. Kearl is a sociologist that works with sociology of life. The paper is from 1984
 Sociology (of Knowledge or other) is not neuroscience.
Nora J. Johnson is a clinical psychologist from the University of Pennsylvania.
Yes, you're right. But Johnson calls herself a clinical neuropsychologist.

 
Quote
Of course there are several types of crisis.
I'm glad we agree.

 Midlife is a specific time in life, and any crises (plural) that occur then have their specificities related to age/ biology/ social context, even neurology.

Many people on this forum ask "is it MLC?" When they are dealing with someone older or younger. The answer should be no... It may be a crisis, but MLC belongs to midlife.


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Re: Discussion thread
#96: August 04, 2016, 06:57:10 PM
We had a very interesting  thread a few years ago about MLC. So much gets repeated on this forum, but here is the link to the archived thread, in case anyone is interested.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.90
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Mermaid, neuroscience does not deal with "Temporalities of Identity"-
Yes, it does. Look at work by Dennett, and especially work by Damasio. Nothing to do with MLC, but all about the neurology of identity.

Here's a summary Damasio's neurological research on temporalities of identity.


Damasio hypothesised three neurological levels of the self, which explains how we can remain the same, yet change with time and context. The first level is the stable, but unconscious, proto-self, present before birth (1999:154); the second level, core-consciousness (1999:16), leads to a sense of self in the present moment, and is the source of emotions (1999:219) and is stable across a life time, under strong gene control. The third level, extended consciousness, associated with autobiographical, narrative self (self-identity), is an awareness of the lived past and anticipated future, language and memories playing a key role. It developed later evolutionarily than core and proto-self, and is dependent on core consciousness for its existence. Thus thought and learning are not limited to language, nor does language give access to the whole of consciousness. Although there is a tendency towards multiple stories about the self, the deeply biological self selects drafts according to a unified sense of self. There are limits to how this unity can be maintained in all contexts at all times, and there are instances when conflicting conscious and unconscious desires may change the direction of this self. Damasio argues that there is a tendency to “return to base”.

[/i]

This bit is about the neurology of decision making. None of us makes purely rational decisions; neurologically, emotions always underlie them.

Recent neurological research supports the idea that emotions underlie rationality and decision-making. Wilson (2004) shows how the “adaptive unconscious” filters information, sets goals, and makes judgements and decisions. These processes may lead to both thoughts and actions, so conscious thoughts may be only rationalizations of unconscious processes. Damasio (1994, 1999, 2003) demonstrates that patients whose emotional reactivity is impaired (through damage to the prefrontal cortex or the anterior cingulated cortex) have immense difficulty making decisions. This difficulty exists despite patients having full knowledge of decision outcomes and normal intelligence. Their difficulty arose from their inability to assign values to the options available, leading Damasio to propose the Somatic Marker Hypothesis. This describes how the brain is positively or negatively affected by experiences from socialization, connecting rationality, emotions and the self. Knowledge, says Damasio, is thus deeply dispositional. However, this is not a behaviourist mechanism; somatic markers do not cause decisions, but form the neurological basis of a personal value system. According to Damasio (1994), emotions have precedence neurologically over rationality. As not every aspect of behaviour is conscious, not everything is open to rationality. Paradoxically, this means that rational decisions can be made subconsciously, using a value system formed according to emotional reactions.

This has important consequences, as rational decisions do not only arise from abstract knowledge, but are linked to emotional biases. These lie partly in the unconscious domain; thus tacit knowledge is important. It supports the idea of a pragmatic, bounded rationality in which relationships and trust are important. Thus socially rational behaviour is not necessarily conscious, and conscious knowledge does not necessarily lead to rational behaviour. Neither knowledge nor emotions lead to socially rational decisions on their own, but emotions, as markers of social values, are an essential part of decision-making. Yet explanations of decision-making may only be an illusion, a rationalization after decisions have been made unconsciously (Wilson 2004).




I know this is a bit academic and dense in constructs, but I hope it helps.

My point is that ideas such as self and identity are always social constructions; the third level of self, which is autobiographical, is linguistic, and comes from how we develop and change in social context. We all have multiple drafts of this "self" which are always changing. There is no one true "self", but proto-self is closest to it, although it's not accessible to our consciousness except in brief glimpses. The second level, emotional self, together with somatic marker mechanisms (from by social learning) may affect how our MLCers appear to suddenly redraft their social identity, especially if conflicting emotions bubble up from the unconscious.

It's unlikely that neurological disorders cause MLC, which basically a social and emotional crisis. I've posted these summaries to show how neurologically people reorganise their identities, life stories, and make decisions.

 It's entirely possible of course that some people have a neurological malfunction, from an ischemic attack or other causes, but it's unlikely to be an explanation for what we call MLC. Most especially, some of the diseases mentioned on this forum have a number of other manifestations.

It is possible that hormonal changes underlie the effects seen in some MLCers.

In other cases, it seems more likely that psychological and social forces are at play.

Hope this helps, to anyone who has read through to the end.

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It's unlikely that neurological disorders cause MLC, which basically a social and emotional crisis. I've posted these summaries to show how neurologically people reorganise their identities, life stories, and make decisions.

It's entirely possible of course that some people have a neurological malfunction, from an ischemic attack or other causes, but it's unlikely to be an explanation for what we call MLC. Most especially, some of the diseases mentioned on this forum have a number of other manifestations.

It is possible that hormonal changes underlie the effects seen in some MLCers.

In other cases, it seems more likely that psychological and social forces are at play.

I wonder, though, how to account for the sudden onset, often in direct contrast to previous values and beliefs. Many medications include contraindication for personality and behavioral changes. Under this case we don't assume that the patient has had an identity crisis.

From some of the things I have read on the site, this also does not explain why people who come out of MLC describe themselves as being in a fog and not understanding their choices or having a memory of them.

There is also the question of how radical the changes are. People are not coming to this board with spouses who are saying, "I think my feelings for you have changed." Oftentimes it is going from apparently loving and stable to cruel, vindictive, erratic.
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I wonder, though, how to account for the sudden onset, often in direct contrast to previous values and beliefs. Many medications include contraindication for personality and behavioral changes. Under this case we don't assume that the patient has had an identity crisis.

From some of the things I have read on the site, this also does not explain why people who come out of MLC describe themselves as being in a fog and not understanding their choices or having a memory of them.

There is also the question of how radical the changes are. People are not coming to this board with spouses who are saying, "I think my feelings for you have changed." Oftentimes it is going from apparently loving and stable to cruel, vindictive, erratic.

Velika, it's possible that some people have taken medications, others haven't. Some people may have neurological problems, others haven't, some people describe a fog, others haven't. Some of them appear to make a quick switch, some of them don't. I'm certain, from my experience and reading the stories here, that some people have hidden or repressed psychological problems, which come to the fore. There's no one-size-fits-all, and no one neurological event that triggers MLC.

I'm not explaining in this post what MLC is, but the neurology of how identity is constructed and choices are made. If you read Wilson "Strangers to Ourselves" for example, you will understand that people are often unaware of how they make choices. They make them for emotional reasons, and tell a story about them afterwards.

Likewise, people are unaware of how their emotions impact on  their identity and choices; there are aspects of the self which are not amenable to introspection. And each version of the self that we invent seems like the true one, and there may be no recollection of the previous drafts. I haven't added anything about the neurology of memory, but it's fascinating what we remember and what we forget. Memories are not recorded whole, but in different parts of the brain, and change with time/ circumstances.

None of us are the people we think we are!
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