[evas]

This was written by RainbowGal, but I could've written it myself. It's a testimony just how important NC (in my case "nc", since we had a small child) can be:

I am one of those that has reconciled and Pumpkin will be the first to tell you that NC was instrumental in her wake up.In her own words,"it took away my soother and gave me a swift kick where I needed it.

I fully agree with this:

I think it's safe to say, that so far in our discussion there are more pros than cons for now. Let's keep this focused on the people contributing their stories. We are all familar with the articles. I don't believe we need anymore reminders. So there's no more need to post RCR's links. I'd like to stay with the research of real life stories for now. This is a discussion about results not articles.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

On the issue of kids. IF you are forced to stay in contact that is one thing. But if you aren't I would suggest you go NC for one reason, and one only: your kids are watching how you handle your situation. If you're a nervous wreck, how does that help them?

My kids' therapist told me that I had to be stronger than I ever was before, for their sake. They needed to see stability in their mother since their father was obviously the unstable one. He told me that it was also my job to make them feel secure in an unsure situation. He said it was a lot of pressure, but if I did this, they would come out stronger for it.

If your kids are adults, then there really is no need to have any contact. It may mean choosing to decline invitations to events that your EX, STBX, or spouse is attending. Again, it's a personal choice. Having said that, I have minor kids and I still went NC. My younger 2 are 12 and 16. I had to really make the effort to get them to stay in contact with him. In our case it was court ordered. They didn't want to deal with him, but I made sure they understood that their dad was not well. And, that he was not in his right mind. With counseling, they soon learned to understand.

He's not much of a father these days, and keeps things very light. I must say since their return, he has taken more of an interest in them. I still haven't received and apology, but I'm hoping that that will be soon. That would show me that at least he was cognizant of the damage he's done. Again, only time will tell.

My EX seems to be waking up, he is still with the AD (apparently they went into business together ) but is contacting the girls more. I have encouraged this, not for me, but for them. They feel sorry for their father and saw how he was living ( he's miserable, and regrets everything that has happened, so he says ). It wasn't pretty, nor was their visit very pleasant until after his admission.

In terms of a Vanisher, they're the ones that have chosen NC for you, so it's not like you had a choice. I prefer choices. I chose to go NC for my own healing, and it has worked for me. I chose it at the advice of a male friend that went through MLC. He advised me to do it, and it saved me months of grief, heartache, and sleepless nights.

Just the day before my girls went to visit their father, he monstered. This was on August 14th. Since his admission to the girls nearly 2 weeks ago, I haven't heard anything else from him ( with the exception of the issues with the car ). That to me is a good sign. He might actually be thinking. Only time will tell. The AD sent my MD a friend request on Facebook, she declined. I couldn't believe she actually had the nerve to do it, but then again, she's desperate to be accepted by my younger 2 so it's no real surprise. After that admission ( made in her presence ) I'm sure she feels she's on shaky ground. I know I would.
 
This discussion was merely started to be able to compare the outcomes of NC in various stages. Nothing more. There seems to be this push to get us off topic. Let's not give into temptation. Let's keep focused and see this through.

[MsMedfly]

Every situation is different, as is each one of us.

No contact was the only possible way for me to survive. Just pure evil....


Remember, no contact is for US!!!

And we are all human.. It doesn't matter if they wake up or not, we have to live!!! You have to decide what is best for you!!

We are here to support, not judge...

[kikki]

Here's the thing, though - HS isn't a program or system. RCR is pretty upfront that the articles and blog are based on her personal experience, the research she did during Chuck's crisis, and their personal outcome. I'm not speaking for RCR, but I never got the impression in the 4.5 years that I've been here that she wants people to do things any specific way. I always thought that was the strength of the mentorship team, too - there is no one "type" of mentor. So many times, just being validated and getting a pat on the back when I had a bad day was the best thing this forum offered. I could name a slew of other sites, forums, and gurus in the field who would require hundreds of dollars for access to their content or input, and you would get exactly the same guarantee that it would work for your marriage as what we are receiving here for free, only without someone profiting from our grief.

I'm not disagreeing with you that people don't require more. I absolutely think they do! But that needs to come from professional counselors, attorneys, and other professionals who will fit our specific situational needs. HS just can't provide it all, and I don't think it was ever meant to.

Very much agree Ready

My MLCer is one who had an early mild crisis 10 years prior to this one.  It was at a time when there was pretty much zero information available, and I had absolutely no idea what on earth was going on, except that I knew he was strangely very detached from me and the boys, was irritable and depressed and was having an EA.
I kicked him out of the house immediately when I discovered he was lying to me about his EA, and went NC. 
He was back home within a month, and within a few months back to his lovely old self.

Until, 2010 when all hell broke loose with BD and this time a psychotic break down, running away to his affair partner, and all of the ensuing chaos and terror from his monstering.

We had three early teens together, a business together and worked together, so NC was impossible and he was so completely out of control.
Any time I said he could no longer appear at the house whenever he felt like it and had to leave me alone, he would monster and cause some trauma that affected the boys and me financially.
Involving lawyers who baited me, but refusing to resolve anything.  I went as dark as I could, and very rarely contacted him unless it was essential due to the kids or business.

He has been the clingiest of clingers for 6 years, and it is only now since I finally was able to coax him into a settlement 6mths ago, that he is finally leaving me alone. 
His MLC delusional fantasy has been his 'two lives'.  He no longer has any power over me to enable that delusion.
Each of us has to do what we have to do to survive this thing. 

I think if NC 'works', from my experience, it's because the crisis is on the milder end of the spectrum, just as it was for my MLCer the first time around.

Given the level of extremity of this crisis, I am not convinced that his thinking will ever be anywhere normal ever again.  Not sure he will be able to recover from this length of delusional thinking.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

So far the census is that early NC is good for monstering clinging boomerangs. Since I'm part of this particular group, I still hold true to my opinion that NC is a viable solution. Has anyone gone NC with anyone who didn't monster verbally, but was abusing in other ways? ei. Financially, economically, withheld information, uses the kids as pawns, etc...?

[Roma]

Yes mine.  My H loves to go on these mini trips and I don't know anything until he comes back and posts pix on social media. Same with spending ridiculous amounts of money, especially on clothes and his appearance. I'm on a no to contact me boundary now for this invisible life he leads as named by Larry Bilotta. But with my H it's not really invisible because he posts the pix after.  I still would like to know before hand yet I am giving him the so called freedom (MLC script) he desires.

[Rollercoasterider]

My3Girls,

So your hypothesis is that going no contact or No Contact (both, or either?) will result in a higher rate of MLCer return and thus a higher rate of marital reconciliation. Now you need testimony from LBS.

I will give you my testimony, but before I do...
I get that you started this thread on the Topic of No Contact/no contact with a narrow focus and not on the General Topic of all aspects of nc/NC. But that is not how discussion threads are going to work. Go ahead and keep bringing people back to that focus as it does keep that track going, but be careful of chastising people for posting on the more general aspect of nc/NC. I can see how some people will not feel safe posting to the discussion when they feel chastised for it. I think your narrow focus is a great one, but it’s just not realistic to expect people to stick to it and not add additional thoughts about nc/NC or just post those additional thoughts.

My Testimony
I did not use No Contact in the beginning other than for a brief period about 4 months after Bomb Drop that was a limited period of time for me to get some space for my healing. I initiated this boundary at the recommendation of my mentor—the psychic I was seeing for my counseling.
My only use of it after that was much later (3 years after bomb Drop) when I set it as a consequence for his continuing to have a relationship with the alienator: As long as you are with her, you cannot be with me at all—No Contact. This had an exit, I told him he was allowed to contact me when he left her.

But honestly, I knew what I was doing was working well before the three year mark. I am one who maintained contact at what would likely be considered a high level. My MLCer was a Clinging Boomerang (I wrote the description based on him). But maybe the big difference was that I was not the Pursuer in our relationship even before Bomb Drop; I was the Distancer so our dynamics were gender backwards and one of his complaints—it was valid—was that I neglected him. So to have a strict no contact or take to the level of a boundary would have been more of the same and confirmed his need to leave me.
The 180 List needs to be specific to each situation and for me having more contact was a 180. This is not typical!!! So I am not saying do what I did and it will be like some magic formula; the opposite is more likely true, for most people it will fail—one reason being due to the Pursuit-Distance dynamics.

Of course I cannot give testimony to how it would have played out had I gone No Contact and held a boundary for a long period in the beginning; maybe it would have worked as well. What I can say is that not going nc/NC worked and it worked quickly and quite well.


As for Paving the Way… I need to write more on this for a post, so I just want to be brief and putting it here will have a record for what I might want to expand on later. Paving the Way continues to be a heavily misunderstood concept. It is not about any specific actions or inactions that might make up Paving the Way for any individual situation. It seems to me that many are defining Paving the Way as being about the things I did—all my contact and activities with my MLCer. In general Paving the Way is Love they Neighbour—be kind, be gracious, be polite because it is a good way to treat others.
It can include time together as it did for me, but that is what worked in my situation. DO WHAT WORKS! Do not define what works based on what worked for anyone else. Go ahead and use it as experiments to determine what might work for you, but remember that experiments are just that and approach them with an open mind and no expectations.

I went NC very early on (though not entirely NC since we have a son who was 4 at the time). First of all it was recommended to me by a guy at Divorce Remedy, whom I spoke to perhaps 2 weeks after BD. He told me to quit being my H's mother, break co-dependency and leave him alone. It became an obsession with me to do things "right" so I followed this advice.

No matter what people say here, or how controversial it may be (I know at the time I stepped on some people's feet) I remain ABSOLUTELY convinced that going NC is one of the reasons my H got out of his MLC, left his "Amor", and came back home to me. Maybe it's just like some moms of autistic children who say that there's a window of opportunity right at the beginning to pull your child out of autism. However my H was fully cooked when he returned, no doubt about it.

It is now 4 years later and we are still together and very happy.

That's my result of going NC (or close to it) early on.

There is a difference between No Contact and no contact—capitalization versus no caps—and yet there may be no difference as well. The difference is that No Contact is a boundary and as a boundary it is something you communicate to your MLCer. You could not have contact for months or years and so effectively be in a no contact and yet have never had a communication about setting it as a boundary. So let me try to be very clear: My recommendation against No Contact as a main tool for general use in the new LBS Toolbox is go No Contact the boundary. In general I advise that LBSs not initiate contact; if there MLCer also follows this, then there could be no contact between them and yet no No Contact boundary.
So according to my definition of the terms Evas was Dark—and right at the margin of Dark and No Contact but not in No Contact; Dim and Dark are not boundaries and thus require no communication about them.
Why do I advise against it as a boundary?
There are a few reasons, but for the sake of brevity, let me give this one. When you set a boundary you are giving your MLCer rules and as we all know, rules are made to be broken! MLCers test rules and if they break through this feeds them—it especially feeds Monster. You have shown them an area of weakness and they will pounce and escalate, poking you more and more. This just makes it more difficult for you—especially if you are a new LBS. One reason that boundaries need to start small in the beginning (Rule-Boundaries, not Respect-Boundaries) is because a weakened LBS is not strong enough to maintain them. Set boundaries that you are going to be able to maintain and as you become stronger, you boundaries can be stronger and stricter as well.

Whether they come back or not is not the issue. The real issue here is how much: self respect, dignity, and self confidence do you really want to give up? In the end, just like I wouldn't respect the Ex if he came back on his knees groveling. How much do you think they have for us when we're first bomb dropped? Short answer: none.

A good point, but subjective as well. The don’t you respect yourself/have self-respect comment is common from outsiders who are often really saying that they don’t respect you for what you are doing. I have a blog post on this topic, but the blog is up-and-down this week due to issues with the host that are not yet resolved, so I can’t even go there or to my dashboard and give you the link.
So another good question and point you made is about what the MLCer will think of your actions/inactions? Will they respect you for them?
Well, just as with outsiders, they don’t get it and we still need to choose our actions based on our Code of Self-Respect and not on the MLCer’s twisted views. Easier said than done, but basically when you approach a situation with empowerment and confidence people can read that and are less likely to question it—even MLCers. And when they do your confidence is able to handle it. The problems arise when you are not confident enough to withstand the challenges of others—MLCers and others. People have deer in the headlights radar.

I think that way too much time is spent focusing on the MLCer in the beginning. It's when you can step back and really take a more objective look, that's when you get a hold of yourself. Then you can deal with all the chaos and destruction in a more constructive way.

Absolutely.
Though focusing on the MLCer is part of what a person is going to do in the initial stages of their trauma, and even though it might not be productive, it is normal for many and likely most and we need to accept this as part of an individual’s process. Objectivity is also difficult or perhaps next to impossible when a person is not detached—objectivity is a result of Detachment.
It can be frustrating for those ahead who know what it takes to get through that early garbage. We want to help others just get through that quickly by advising them what worked for us and how we would have been better off had we done those things that worked sooner. But the thing is, often we did those things when we did them as part of experience and learning. Sometimes we have to learn what doesn’t work or learn by getting burned—hopefully just singed a bit.
There’s got to be a place of balance. Many get stuck in the place of focusing on the MLCer and use their process to healing as an excuse for lingering there. So when do we accept the process and when do we push them a bit harder because they are stuck—and someone who is stuck typically does not know it and may deny it. The challenge is that this varies from person to person; I think it is likely a function of the level of self-confidence and empowerment they had going in—before or at Bomb Drop. Those who were higher on the scale then are likely to be ready to be pushed sooner and may not need the pushing because they may be more likely to recognize what they need to do.

I believe that you have a better chance of them coming back if you go NC. No interference seems to be a beacon for them.

As a general statement I believe this is dangerous—at this point.
You have explained this discussion as basically for research purposes and would like testimony from LBSs as to what worked best in their situations. If that is the case, it seems too early in your research to draw a conclusion.

The sometimes sad thing with this forum, is that there's this impression that there's a set of viewpoints that seem like they're written in stone. Well, nothing ever is.

I think that unfortunately some people are attempting to etch their viewpoints onto clay tablets and bake them. This is why those people get stuck—writing in stone leads to becoming stuck.

Evas, you were not No Contact, you were no contact. Like you said, you have a son, so there was some contact.

Anjae, I made that clear. I wasn't aware that there was a lower case "no contact". Seriously, you HAD to point that out?

Yes. We try to make a habit of pointing this out because it is such a misunderstood concept and so we try to clarify the differences or at least that there are differences. It’s not meant as a correction of your words, but as a message to the other LBSs reading along.

No Contact vs no contact? Are you really trying to make this one fly?  I'm trying to get people to critically think for a change. Distractions hamper that. So does conformance. I see a lot of pressure to conform on this forum. That's a shame, because it makes the forum inauthentic.

Oh just stop with the criticisms! She’s following my examples in highlighting the differences. It’s about defining terms and I have given specific definitions for No Contact and explained how it differs. It’s only important because when we are consistent with how we use the terms we can help others to understand the concepts. Defining my terms is something my mother drilled into me; let others know how you are using a word. I was once told I was a narcissist because I defined my terms; I found it laughable and call BS. Anjae is simply trying to explain how The Hero’s Spouses uses the terms no contact versus No Contact.

Your stance is pretty clear: you will not be swayed. And, I highly doubt you will sway any of us to your line of thinking on this thread either. Your agreement points are weak, and you really haven't supplied any other evidence than one article to support your claim. That's not enough. But, that's for another thread. Maybe you could start one: NC vs Contact. I'm sure you'll get lots of responses. Post it, and let's see what happens.

It’s not her stance; it’s mine. And this is not a popularity contest to see who can get the most responses. That’s just rude.

Moving far away is also not going to bring a MLCer out of their crisis.

This is untrue. I haven't looked it up now, but I know I've read about "traumas" that can shock an MLCer out of the tunnel. A partner/spouse/X moving far away may well be such a trauma.

I often feel unwelcome at this forum exactly for this reason, this nitpicking, this "know-it-all". My views and ideas may be different but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. For me it doesn't really matter much, I have my success story, but maybe my story (and many other similar stories) can help people out there.

I am sorry you feel this is nitpicking. It is not meant as such and this seems an example of different people making different interpretations or assumptions regarding someone’s words or style and how we cannot please everyone.

I don’t have statistics to support one view or the other, only my own opinion based on my experiences—personal and observed. I agree completely with what Anjae said as a general statement—not as an absolute since exceptions typically exist. Anjae did not use an absolute modifier and on the flip side she did not modify her words to highlight them as being for the general rather than specific situation. Was it necessary to do that? Opinions will differ.

I think people should not be shy about sharing what works and even questioning accepted advice on this site. In many ways it may be helpful if people do experiment.

I am in full agreement and I have always advocated experimenting. Years ago I even had an article calling this testing a Lab Experiment. I don’t think it is up anymore because the content itself just felt sub par, but the idea of it as an experiment is something I’ve always put forth.

Actually, My2Girls, pretty much everyone in the board who is reconnecting or reconciled never used No Contact. They may had no contact for a little while, but never went No Contact.

This makes absolutely no sense. The question was asked of us who went NC. You obviously didn't. There aren't that many reconciliation stories on HS. There are far more on other forums of people who did go NC and moved on.

Well she’s not really correct about those of us who are reconciled having never used No Contact, but I think I know what she means. We did not use it asa  long-term tool that we applied early on and kept up. And that might not make sense without the full story. As a Moderator she is privy to what I write on the mod board. In preparation for my most recent article about No Contact I PM’d all the LBSs on this forum with Dark Purple thread—a very small number—and asked them about contact. Of the few only a few responded, so it’s not something with much meaning, but of those who responded, none applied it in a big or long-term way, if they did use it, they did so more like I did. I personally had the imporession that they also credited the continuing contact with playing a part in keeping the door open to lead to reconciliation. I think Evas was in the group I PM’d and she kindly responded. Anjae may be thinking of this since I mentioned it at the mod board—and maybe in the post. What I found more interesting was that every single responder said their MLCer was a Clinging Boomerang.

Evas, you aren't the only one.

There are several people on this forum who will pick a fight for a differing point of view. Anjae, I'm calling you out on this one. It's not the first time I've had to either. Your responses have been nothing more than nit picking for the sake of argument.

Most of your arguments have been at best distractions.

No more than pointing it out is a distraction…and there I’ve distracted now too.

Perhaps Anjae’s comments seem like nitpicking to some, but anyone who thinks that is her intention does not know Anjae. Her comments are a lot more neutral than you are taking them.

This is about research to get to a conclusion that hasn't been investigated extensively: is NC or is it not a viable solution for some MLCers? That's the real issue here.

And the research question is great—quite valid. The problem is that some of us do not know what you mean when you refer to NC or even no contact—caps or not if you are not making a distinction between the boundary and not having contact without the boundary which requires communication.
You personally described it as a boundary in your situation since you communicated it. Perfect and understandable. Make your research criteria very clear. Anjae looks at situations with logic—to the extreme as she herself has said. In a research setting this is beneficial for what you are trying to do. Instead of seeing her as being nitpicky, think of her motives as trying to help your research by making sure each response is on the appropriate page with what they mean with the words no contact—capped versus uncapped. I know it would be less confusing in some ways of the actual words were different and yet at the same time it might add a new or different confusion since how it plays out is the same—not having contact.

You want conformity…

When you Assume you make an a$$ out of you and me and that is an assumption.
I agree with Searching4Answers about the tone of this thread. Not liking the tone does not mean someone should just not read it. Sometimes a person wants to change the tone—to something nicer. Maybe they appreciate the topic as it was proposed and don’t want to miss out on it and yet the tone—comes in as a distraction. Not liking the content is a different matter from not liking the tone.

We are speaking about our thoughts and issues. Guess what? They don't align with RC.

Well, they certainly don’t seem misaligned with my ideas! I have no issue with no contact—no caps and believe in No Contact—boundary if it works for you and suits you or is what you need for you. My concern is making it a general or blanket recommendation for all incoming LBSs—especially the boundary. As for the lower cap no contact, I probably just talk about it more as being Dark and getting really close to the margin of the No Contact border, so I don’t use the term as often with lower caps—probably to avoid confusion, but it’s not in my thought process like that. I just think if it as Dark—really Dark. When it is a boundary it means you will not answer back when your MLCer attempts to make contact with exceptions like emergencies.
My3Girls, from your description your application of the boundary was textbook. You use the boundary and even get closer to the Dark-No Contact margin more often than I recommend doing it, but it’s what worked for you and you see that it has worked for others. That’s perfect then. My experience has been different. If I am going to choose something I wish people will do that is in alignment with me: DO WHAT WORKS. The beauty of that is that it is open to what works for each individual.

Well, I see I hit a nerve. For everyone else who would like to continue the discussion at hand, and to dismiss the hijacking attempt, let's continue.

I saw no hijacking attempt. People are going to respond to what is posted and that is what Searching4Answers did. From where I am reading it feels like you are the one doing the things you are accusing others of doing.

MLC can be so varied as to almost be a spectrum disorder. To this point, I would actually think a great benefit to this site would be to rank MLCers like hurricanes. Some have low durations, surges, and damage whereas others are the opposite.

Rug, Evas, who has been posting to this thread, is reconciled. So are RCR and Stayed. As well as BBhelp http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0 ;F inding Hope http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8174.0 ; Sada http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8151.0 ; hopeandfaith http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7200.0 or NotGivingUpOnU http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2277.0  just to name a few.

There is lower case no contact that is quite different from No Contact. That difference is RCR creation, not mine. I asked RCR to come by an explain the difference.

The rest of us have moved on passed this. I would suggest that do too. You are holding up progress. We are now moving on, whether you want to or not. Are you on or out?

Good Lord! Really? Anjae responds to a post from above in the thread and gets criticized for not moving past? And you are the one complaining of distractions?

I love that there are many long timers on this site who have so much wisdom to share and do so graciously.  I know that newbies spend a lot of time on here and soak up as much information as possible.  What I would like to say to newbies is this: You are where you are and if you can't (or don't want to) go no contact, don't. If you want to, then do it.. Later on, if you change your mind either way, accept that you made the best decision you could at the time.  Acceptance of all of your decisions is key to your healing. {Emphasis added by RCR] Wishing you had done something different early on is not going to help you. You can't really 'pay it forward' and save others from making your perceived mistakes either (if it did, child rearing would be a whole lot easier )  Don't beat yourself up if you read something and feel you 'should' be doing something different.  You will do it when you're ready and if it's right for you.

Beautifully said.


Okay the research question. I think we need to be very careful because I know RainbowGal’s story and I don’t see her results as supporting what feels like a more blanket recommendation of No Contact. Actually she used it just as I did and at the same points in the crisis. So how it is applied is very important. UGH, this could be a much more advanced piece of research then. It just feels like either people (like me) are taking the question as being about a general application starting near the beginning and then we are basing results on that. Maybe they are not doing that…I don’t know.

RainbowGal says that No Contact was instrumental in bringing her MLCer home. But I feel what is important is her understanding if what that No Contact was—how and when it was applied. She did not just make it a boundary near the beginning and stay there. So what are we talking about when we ask about nc or NC? A longer term applied from early on and maintained? Or a tool used occasionally and at brief times—which may be made long-term based on the initial response/reaction of the MLCer and the situation.

Was it instrumental in bringing Chuck home? I think it was important, but it did not have the same power it did for RainbowGal because Chuck knew what it was about; he knew there was a way for him to exit and that when he did that, I would be there to reconcile with him. What I had to do was get him more scared in the end that I might change my mind regarding my Stand.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Like I said for those of you who want to continue the thread without these distractions, let's continue. Let's continue our quest for results, and not forget that that's the only thing on this thread that's consequential for our purposes of research. And keep in mind, this is also a social experiment in if early NC does or doesn't work. I'm thinking of setting up a poll when it's over. You will all get a chance to vote once the thread has run it's course.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Kikki, Your take on NC was interesting. I'd like to know a little bit more. What did you mean? Specifically, do you feel it's a tactic?

[kikki]

Having experienced this more than once, and with almost opposite ends of the MLC severity spectrum, I too thought my instinctual response of self protection and removing myself from my MLCer's reach, would make him think about what he was missing.
It probably did.  His level of cray cray was less severe last time. He stayed with friends of ours not far from our home and within days was badgering me to be able to come home.

I remember him saying afterwards that there was 'something very wrong' with him because he 'didn't feel any empathy at all for either me or his EA' during that time.

A distinct contrast to his long term screwy thinking this time.

I have read many times where people think they have managed to control the crisis by their behaviours and forcibly trying to encourage others to do the same because they are convinced it too will 'work'.  That's what I think is floored thinking.  If you haven't witnessed this level of cray cray, then you're in for a shock if you ever do.

This time, what 'works' was being able to survive financially a highly explosive disorder or dis-ease (as RCR would say).
NOTHING this time seems to have made any long term impact on him.
He has been as determined to live his new life, as he has been to have me be a secret part of it.
He knew he had me between a rock and a hard place because of the finances. He told me on many occasions that he knew I let him near me because I was financially vulnerable due to our business and the boys.  As RCR suggests, I was as kind, gracious and polite as I was able to be. 

He was very open about all sorts of things to start with - his confusion, how the OW was enormously selfish, how their relationship was tumultuous, how he disliked her family immensely.  I would listen with open mouthed horror to start with, until I did not want to hear any more about her.  I started to walk out of the room if he mentioned her at all. It took him ages to get the message.  He said he would have to bring the OW to our house for afternoon tea 

He frequently apologised, realised he had had a break-down, would get help, then in the next few hours change tack and 'there's nothing wrong with me Kikki', 'we just make each other feel bad' would come out of his mouth again.

That all changed (his openness about the OW, and his ambivalence towards her) at around the 3.5 year mark post BD and he appeared determined to stick with his new life.

When I managed to get him to agree to a settlement (of which he was the distinct financial winner), he was very angry with me for quite a few months. We occasionally need to have contact due to a few lasting ties, and he finally seems to be polite again. I guess this may wax and wane.

An old friend of mine who had this happen to her 10 years ago, is convinced that he will already be deeply regretting what he did, but will feel too stuck in his new life, to do anything about it.
She asked me what I am going to do when he comes knocking on my door in a few years time.  She hopes I don't take him back.  I am not convinced he would ever do that now, even though I couldn't imagine him NOT doing it until recently.
So much trauma, and so much change has been forced on me and the boys, I can't imagine how any of us would ever integrate back together now.

I guess I don't trust that this wouldn't happen again, because of what I have experienced.