[LEC16]

I think the cause IS the effect. They are depressed. They do things that they think will help them deal with the depression, and those things in turn make them more depressed. For example, they think their wife is the big source of their troubles. So they get an OW. Their wife gets angry about it or they feel guilty. Now they feel even worse.

One does not need to believe in demonic possession to still see the devil behind this. The devil simply could be leading people to make poor choices. Or the same brain chemistry is playing out in all of them leading them to make the same poor choices. Whatever your belief, the effect is the same.

Just an aside, may or may not be related. My husband just brought a large quantity of tissues. He bought some yesterday and they were like really underpriced, so I told him to go back and buy some more. He brought them by to me just now and we were discussing whether he should go back and buy even more and I just suddenly smiled and blew him a kiss. He stopped speaking, just stared deep into my eyes for a few seconds like he was connecting to me but also like he wasn't sure what was going on, and then resumed speaking about the tissues. I'd never seen that look before. It was really strange. Like I pulled him off into another world for a few seconds and then he pulled himself back. In the past if I did something like this he would have reacted right away, probably telling me not to be silly or not to waste his time.

Good post, I agree depression is the one part of mlc that is an absolute.

I get that depression causes the loss of feelings and the need for high stimulation in order to get desired feelings, but cheating and value changes don't seem to be a direct symptom of depression. I also don't think overt anger makes sense. I know guilt is a factor in those things, but wouldn't guilt also help prevent the bad behavior then?  I just can't blame out of control emotions and urges on depression, but perhaps I need more education on the topic.

I feel depression, stress, and anxiety triggers mlc. I think it's a combination that is set off by an event. I feel that we probably have all seen some of the bad traits, it's just in the past they were kept in check by a conscious, good judgment, loft, and reason. MLC regression turns decisions over to the emotions. I guess the demonic or evil part is the intentional pain caused by rewriting history, cheating on, and demonizing the spouse. When someone's thinking and actions become disordered it's impossible to understand one cause when the disordered behavior leads to so many evil and destructive actions. I think depression is an absolute, but I struggle to think that the rest is just a normal snowball effect that follows the same path

[Velika]

LEC, I struggle with same questions.

MLCers are angry with their spouse but hurt their children so badly. I have observed same indifference to harming our son, however, as I have toward me. For me this is an indication that this is more than psychological; something very extreme must be going on to override all the mechanisms that would have normally let our once loving and caring spouses know something was very wrong with their behavior.

Also, in many cases the MLCer is unapologetically amoral. They are not trying to hide their bad behavior. It is like they truly don't have a conscience. In my husband's world view that he expresses to me, he has done nothing wrong. Occasionally, I feel like he knows he has done wrong but like LC writes is just peeking out watching from whatever is in charge of him.

ALSO: Is it just me or is there major uptick in people joining this forum?

[LEC16]

Velika, I really find your insight and opinions interesting.  I think evil is clearly part of the mlc. I don't exactly know how to comprehend the devil, but I think of the devil as a force of evil similar to the Catholic understanding of the holy spirt as a force of good inspiration. Every culture has a similar belief.  I guess I think we can explain mlc w/o the devil, but mlc is w/o a doubt evil.

The poster who brought up C.S. Lewis's Screwtape letters hit on something important. First, the autio version is free online and a great listen. Ironically John Clease narraites it. I see the mlc person as just taking marching orders from the devil, and the mlc as basically being finishing school for devils. IMO mlc is the devils best weapon against marriage as it can attack and destroy healthy Christian families. While I'm fairly certain that the mlc is not demonic I feel like evil is an accomplice.  Like Velika said, why do they become selfish and hurt the kids as well as us?

[Not Applicable]

My husband basically is taking a break from his/our morals. He knows right from wrong, and says he will start doing the right thing in 1-3  years. What he is doing now was prompted by a request from the OW and he made her a promise. He's said this explicitly to me. A promise which has no religious validity whatsoever. And everything he is doing now flies in the face of promises he made me.  If the devil is in there anywhere, it's in the promises made and broken.

There's something in his head though that makes him think it is necessary that he not do the right thing right now in order to achieve his goals. And he is finding that a lot harder than he expected because a sort of karma is playing out in that regard. Maybe God wants to teach him a lesson. If the ends don't wind up justifying the means, then he's going to really hit a hard rock bottom.

[Not Applicable]

ALSO: Is it just me or is there major uptick in people joining this forum?

I haven't been around long enough to compare to anything but it does seem there are a good number. I've noticed a number of us seem to suddenly have spouses that are making a bit of progress though. It wasn't like that when I joined a couple months ago.

[Watcher]

I do find this topic interesting. My W really was devout prior to BD. I was the casual religious observer. After BD, she curses her God and the world and basically Monsters against me for 15 months. She also Monstered against her parents. I've already stated how she called the police on me 5 times, attempted a restraining order, and threw me out numerous times. She was downright nasty and abusive. She wanted a divorce.

She spends those 15 months isolated from me barely speaking and had her own version of NC on me. She has a spiritual awakening and finds her God again at month 20 and reconnects with me. This same woman makes me dinner now 4-5 nights a week and we sit and have tea time basically everyday and we discuss our day.

I recognize my W and I recognize that she is still in mlc. She continues to hold fast that we must protect our marriage because it is under attack from evil. She has her moments where she clearly is still foggy, but she always remembers to remind me to be careful and take care of myself.

I would like to know more about what she went through these past 20 months, but currently she is focused only on protecting the marriage. I don't know if we are necessarily working on our marriage, LOL, but she is adamant that we are going to defend it.

[Not Applicable]

A skeptic would say this is her way of not taking responsibility for what happened. If she has to "defend" your marriage then she is saying the problem came from outside her, not from herself. At least she is not blaming you, but it also sounds like she still hasn't dealt with her issues, whatever they may be.

[LEC16]

Watcher, she seems to believe the mlc feelings and behavior was an attack which is something that the Catholic Church has been really stressing in recent years. The church position is obviously largely focused on the culture and high profile court decisions, but I think mlc and no fault divorce are also a big part of the message, it's just they are not called out by name. They are also not as sexy so they don't get the media attention. 

MLC is like profanity, you know it when you see it. My point is evil is very opportunistic, it preys on the vulnerable, but also seems to take pride in taking down devout good people. By this I mean evil is more effective when it destroys a Religious family or a highly respected or holy person. MLC seems to impact good people and families based on what I have observed. I find that interesting and sad that this evil manifests itself in the kind of people I have meet here. My kids are very religious, the older two serve mass and they all wear brown scapular. They are kind to people and try to be good people. The mlc has changed my oldest and my W changing values impacted everything that they knew and trusted.  Evil has gained ground with my W mlc.

MLC is evil, it doesn't matter to me what causes it in this respect, because the impact is no different. This is the part that makes me struggle to attribute it all to depression or the effects of depression. I just don't see why anyone would want to destroy the good that exists in their children. Selfishness is evil and mlc is unfettered selfishness. Being selfish and even mean might be able to be reasoned, but the element of evil is very difficult to understand. The changes in my wife's eyes coincided with her personality. That to me is impossible to reason. It was like multiple personalities with the same name. I guess that's what we all struggle with the most. Losing our loving spouse is difficult, but watching them turn evil is pure hell.

[LEC16]

A skeptic would say this is her way of not taking responsibility for what happened. If she has to "defend" your marriage then she is saying the problem came from outside her, not from herself. At least she is not blaming you, but it also sounds like she still hasn't dealt with her issues, whatever they may be.

Basically she could be using the church's logic as an excuse or it is something that resonated with her and helped her understand why suddenly what she believed to be wrong feels right. I guess it depends on what she experienced. If she felt lost and out of control than it's like believing a diagnosis from a doctor in some ways. MLC is so difficult to understand and diagnosis because it is really an attack on the transcendentals. It is impossible to treat values and feelings that are disordered.  I guess the nature of mlc is what makes it so difficult to diagnosis. The changes in personality are observable, but not quantifiable. The very nature of mlc makes it appear to be a spiritual attack.

[gman242]

Good post, I agree depression is the one part of mlc that is an absolute.

I get that depression causes the loss of feelings and the need for high stimulation in order to get desired feelings, but cheating and value changes don't seem to be a direct symptom of depression. I also don't think overt anger makes sense. I know guilt is a factor in those things, but wouldn't guilt also help prevent the bad behavior then?  I just can't blame out of control emotions and urges on depression, but perhaps I need more education on the topic.

Anger is the key to acting out. Anger is what lets the MLCer rise above guilt and remorse to say "hey! what about me? what about what I want? F this damn F'in world that has done nothing but take a dump on me! I don't care any more!"

I just talked to my wife last night about this. She was talking to her OM on a chat program and then it suddenly showed up on the phone bill. She did it because she didn't care anymore, she wanted to be caught and I would be the one to end things.. satisfying her guilt and not letting her have to face anything.

By and large, anger is the driving force behind cheating and other immoral things. Those in an MLC feel the universe has held them down and things have just been done to them their whole lives. Anger is the fuel that tips the scales in their favor.. or the illusion there of.