[LEC16]

I will try again to clarify. Laws are not moral absolutes, slavery is wrong, it didn't just become wrong when it became illegal.  Church doctrine defines morality for members, and members may consider it a moral absolute, but reasonable people disagree and various religions disagree. I'm not talking about a religion in particular, I'm saying to actually believe something is absolutely bad, say intentionally hurting a baby, then you must accept that some things are intrinsically evil. If an action is always bad, like intentionally hurting a bady, then you ascribe to a religious belief. You basically believe that some "bad" or "evil" are more than opinions, you accept that they are real. This is the universal law Elegance is referring to. The reality is an atheist may respect and agree with a "universal law", but an atheist can't claim a "universal law" to be an absolute truth and remain consistent with their professed belief system. Basically no god means good and evil are ideas not absolute truths. I know this is deep, but honestly I have never heard an atheist effectively explain how absolute truth can exist w/o god.

[Velika]

I think most MLCers do things they would have known to have been wrong -- or at the very least to hide -- prior to MLC. Instead, many are shockingly unapologetic, flaunting affairs and harming their families emotionally and financially with seemingly no ability to predict outcomes.

So even if we take the idea of a universal idea of what is right and what is wrong out of the picture: MLCers are not obeying their own moral code of conduct.

I can see that anger is a huge part of it. I can also see behavioral overlap as well to other illnesses/disorders I have read about, like depression, behavioral variant frontotemporal lobe depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, even sociopathy and NPD. All of these affect the frontotemporal lobe.

I have noticed many observe their MLCers in the beginning being "pulled back in" to something. I saw this very clearly; in the beginning after bomb drop there does seem to be some type of "battle." Once my MLC-H even sent me a note, like he was very far away in a small prison, about how ashamed he was for the things he said to me and the way he had disrespected our bond.

But in the months that followed he said and did much worse things. His writing style changed to an ornate style. His eyes often looked terrified or haunted. They had the expression of someone held captive.

I remember early on he acted like he had to get out of our home, like it was possessed.

I wonder sometimes in his mind I am the evil thing he is getting away from. I think he sees me as evil and dark.

Very provocative discussion!

[LEC16]

Elegance, there are crazy stories of 9 year old girls of average intelligence from humble families having angry outbursts in different languages and using different voices. GB QB Aaron Rodgers gf Olivia Munn became a believer after watching NYPD footage of possessed people while doing research for a movie.

In the Catholic Church miracles are heavily scrutinized by scientists. When a incurable disease or tumor disappears upon visiting a holy site where numerous similar incidents take place and then are examined and scrutinized by top scientists before being accepted, one must at least pause. I've heard skeptics  sometimes argue faith/belief allows these people to unlock an ability to self heal that humans haven't yet understood and learned to control. My question is would the healing happen after hallucinating children think they see the mother of god?  I think looking at miracles that pass heavy scientific scrutiny is a good place to start if you are curious about supernatural.

Demonic possession seems like a stretch, but I still come back to why is mlc behavior basically all immoral by traditional or even mainstream definition. I don't jump to supernatural, but I think it is fascinating to examine as I clearly saw something evil in W eyes.

[LEC16]

Good point Velika, why do mlc'ers abandon their own values. I also saw a change in W vocabulary, which is similar to the changes you saw in writing style. I guess I'm stuck on evil because I don't know why confused or disordered thinking all ends up being immoral. Why don't they take to positive outlets.

[Roma]

Thank you OM. I see it better now. I respect all religions, actually I enjoy learning about them.

LEC, maybe I don't understand you your definition of 'immoral'. I see being moral as having good values and sticking to them. Helping those who are less fortunate than you. Being honorable, honest, faithful and loyal to your spouse.

How do you define moral behavior?

I don't call myself a skeptic. I see myself as more  of a scientist or one subscribing to a scientific thought process.

Velika,

You asked if the MLCer s running away from YOU and does he see you as evil? Remember, In the MLCer's mind he and the spouse are the same person. And he and the OP are the same person.

The MLCer attributes wrongly the 'evil' side of himself to the LBS, and the angelic qualities of himself to the OP.

So yes the MLCer sees us (the LBS) as 'evil' and want to run away from us. yet Please don't take it personally or actuality because it's just more crazy thinking of MLC. When the fog lifts the MLCer  will  see all he/she had done, and it won't be pretty at all.

[Roma]

When I saw the words 'demonic possession' I only could think of the Hollywood version of asking if our MLCer head was spinning backwards, speaking in tongues, spitting green stuff and levitating off the floor.

I just really couldn't get it.

Is that what you meant Velika

They are like a caged animal busting to get free filled w/ anxiety.

[OneHotMess]

I know it sounds weird but I can tell when my husband is in his monstering stage. His eyes have this really weird empty look in them. It is hard to describe.

[Not Applicable]

Elegance-Someone who is possessed in the most simple terms acts like someone other than themselves. Their voice or accent may change, their physical posture and gestures may change, their behavior changes. The things that they want or demand or say are not the sort of things that they would normally do. They may not even remember what happened later because it wasn't them who did it. All that is left of themselves is the body itself.

[LEC16]

Elegance, you understand moral and immoral basically the same way I do. Immoral would be selfishly intentionally hurting others, infidelity, destructive behavior like drug use or irresponsible spending, lying. Obviously intent is a factor. The bottom line is i haven't heard of an positive changes occurring during the early stages of mlc.

Moral and immoral can be debated, my point is if you accept something's, like intentionally hurting a baby, is intrinsically (naturally) evil because it is contrary to reason and can never be accepted then you accept that there are moral absolutes, which requires a belief in God/higher power. We can self impose moral codes and obey man made laws or we can violate them, but some behavior is never ok, basically what is true is always true. Once we accept that then we accept that there is a spectrum where good and evil are placed. I think we all agree where mlc behavior changes fall on the spectrum.

If good no evil are absolute we accept god, once we do this almost every culture accepts both a force of good and a force of evil exists in the universe. I think we all would agree our conscious helps us choose good over evil. A change in behavior led by emotions overpowering a persons conscious could be interpreted as animal instincts overriding reason (conscious). A reasonable soul is what makes humans different than animals for most religious. If a mlc'er is acting based on animal instincts it is clearly spiritual disordered to a religious person. Now factor in accounts of the eye changes we observe and it seems like we are looking into a soulless body. Demonic possession is the idea that a soul can be held prisoner while a force of evil takes over the body. Using this logic and the fact that mlc'ers are often described as being taken overburdened the invasion of the body snatchers and you have the logic. I think good and bad are easy to accept as absolute truth, possession takes more faith as you need to believe in personal interaction and also the hard to reason causality of such an event. I just think it's interesting to look at because mlc seems so intent on destroying good and perpetrating evil.

[nah]

I know it sounds weird but I can tell when my husband is in his monstering stage. His eyes have this really weird empty look in them. It is hard to describe.

We call them "shark eyes", common for MLCers