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Author Topic: Discussion Reconciliation: If You Stand, Will Your MLCer Return?

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I think LBS who remain humdrum, clingy, seemingly desperate, b*tc#y have less of a chance at reconciliation. Also, we LBSers need to improve our physical appearance if needed.

Understand the premise from which you are coming from. It is natural in the early days for the LBS to make changes such as these if they think they are necessary - more often than not they are reactionary changes and cannot always be sustained as the LBS "grows and heals"

However the MLCer wil notice the changes but will also watch to see if those changes last. 

It is very common to look at self and blame self at BD and not long after BD and if losing weight, keeping fit, really taking physical care is important for self then by all means do it.

I didn't think I was that frumpy or dowdy at BD, certainly not over weight and a financially "independent " woman with a successful career and 3 lovely grown children; I  have never in our 29 years together been a huge "make-up" person and find the gym etc boring preferring to do musical theatre - (that's the make- up time!)
However I took to heart a comment in one of the articles about listening to the MLCer's complaints and choosing which ones were "valid" and which could be "discarded" .

H accused me of being frumpy - I was naturally devastated and he qualified it with me not wearing dresses or skirts. Of course this was projection; OW was and is much more overweight than me but she wears dresses all of the time.
So my reactionary self changed to dresses and skirts.  At first it was designed to "wake my MLCer up" 
Of course it didn't but I learned to wear them more often and discovered what styles really suited me and began to wear them more often for work and other occasions. I learned to show off my legs with jeggings/short skirts/dressses with tights and boots. Now it is second nature.
Has it made a difference to my H? Of course not.
Are we more likely to reconcile because of it - No?  Does that matter? No.

Has it made a difference to me - yes it has. Have I been able to sustain the changes ? Yes - the ones I knew were right for me and not for the MLCer.
I am back to being the confident independent person I was before BD; just dressed a little bit more sassily from time to time.

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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017.
Separated 2022 (my choice because he wanted to live alone) and yet fully reconnected seeing each other often.

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I haven't seen anyone suggest that hope is an impediment to healing, XYZCF. All of us have hope or we wouldn't have come to this forum. Hope, without awareness however, can make the difference between a person struggling to survive and having some semblance of stabilty. Maslow makes clear that a person must first have basic needs met.

Viktor Frankl is a good example, because one of his major points is that nothing has meaning until we apply meaning to it. Meaning (or hope) ultimately cannot come from the external without being susceptible to being dashed or taken away. Each of us applies meaning to our own situations. Frankl created the meaning that he believed helped him to survive Auschwitz, when others in the same circumstances applied different meaning. The meaning itself did not come from anyone else. That was the key to his survival.

So while the blog provides information, so that each person who comes here can make informed decisions about their lives, security and economic stability, it does not take away hope. And meaning is not something that RCR or anyone else can apply to a person's life or be responsible for. That is something one must determine, and hold onto, for oneself or people are simply applying another person's meaning to their life and depending on someone else's hope and faith rather than their own to carry them through.

If one LBS determines that the meaning of MLC is to torture and destroy them, then it likely will. If another LBS determines that the meaning of MLC is to be a catalyst for growth and development, that will be their truth. Each of us holds the key to our own meaning and thus our own hope. The message coming from the board can't determine that for others, because varying issues are at play in every individual circumstance. Different LBSs have different situations, different levels of economic security and resources, different career, housing, and income options, have children of varying ages and circumstances, are of varying ages and degrees of health, are from different states and countries with different matrimonial and child custody laws and differing provisions for healthcare, retirement, etc. Each of those differences must be considered by each LBS when making the decisions we must make along the way to protect ourselves. For RCR to send a message that differs from what is bearing out is potentially damaging to the LBS and his/her future as well as their children's.

Legal action is expensive, it is frightening and anxiety producing, and is a signifcant amount of effort at a time when an LBS is already overwhelmed. It is very tempting to avoid all of that when one is in such a vulnerable place, especially if a person thinks it is likely, or there is a 50/50 chance, that a spouse will return anyway. That has been a mistake for a number of people including some on this forum and by the time they realized that it was too late, money had been squandered by the MLCer, a family home lost, a shared business run into the ground, marital assets destroyed or hidden, the OW pregnant and demanding child support along with the LBS needing it for her children, martial debt significantly increased unbeknownst to the LBS, etc.

People must protect themselves, and especially the less monied spouse, which is still more commonly women, due to child bearing and rearing. Separation and divorce thrust many women and children into poverty worldwide, so one of the most supportive hopeful acts that we can do on this forum is to educate each other, sooner than later, about the realities and encourage self protection (put on one's oxygen mask first). Then, from that more stable/secure place,  a person can have a sense of peace, as well as hope and can stand as long as one chooses, knowing that they and their children are more protected from the financial fallout that often accompanies MLC.
 
One can say that an LBS who is not aware, from the start, that their marriage is less likely to reconcile, will still act expediently to protect themselves, but that is not always the case. Believing/hoping all will work out, deters some from taking action until it's too late or their financial situation is deteriorated resulting in a much lessor settlement than was possible early on. Time and again, people post here saying that they wish they had protected themselves earlier, but I don't recall anyone saying it was a mistake that they had.

Hope is encouraged here, but an LBS must also secure themselves, and the motivation to do so sometimes only comes when one faces reality and genuinely understands the odds. None of us wants to take away hope, but hope without knowledge and action to protect oneself has devastated some LBSs adding to the trauma and stress, making it more difficult to stand, and doing nothing to preserve hope or increase the chance for reconciliation.

Many here still have children dependent on us for a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, their education, healthcare, and general wellbeing. Early on, we have to be able to face that our marriage may not reconcile so we can act accordingly for their sake and for our own. This is separate from the very personal decision to stand, the meaning people apply to their individual life and their hope and faith in the outcome of their own marriage. Where there is life, there is always hope.

Phoenix

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Married 24 years
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He is a vanisher
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Phoenix, I have to say that that is one of the best posts that I've read so far. All of your points are valid.

Here's my take, farther up and further in.

I do have a word of caution for newbies who have minor children. RCR did not have minor children at the time of her husband's crisis, waiting is a luxury you do not have. Divorce or get a separation agreement with child support quickly to protect your kids. Hesitation will only make yours and your children's lives more difficult if you are forced to divorce.

In the beginning we're all grasping at straws, it's natural. I also believe that it's dangerous to tell people who have minor children to not give the MLCer the divorce. As I recall RCR didn't have any children at the time of her initial writings. In my case, not only did the XH hide money ( knowledge abuse ), he also found a way to subtract the car payment and a few other things from the child support ( financial and economic abuse ). It has made a detrimental difference in my ability to get back on my feet. Not to mention all the verbal and emotional abuse that the kids and I had suffered through the initial stages.

My point is, had I acted earlier, this wouldn't have happened. I do have hope as well that he will wake up, snap out or whatever. Do I know if he'll want to come back? No. Does it matter to me? No. I've had to start over at a disadvantage. You have to protect yourself and your kids before it's too late. Many of us have found that out the hard way.

I'm all for having hope, you'll need it if you're going to stand. Not all standers need to stay focused on the MLCers. I really believe that working on yourself, without worrying about what they see or think, is important. There's too much emphasis on the MLCer on this forum, and not enough on the LBSer. Especially those who have come to grips with the fact that they have moved on, and are now starting a new life. Without the MLCer. That's commendable, but it seems that it's a threat to the fixed mindset that many here share. Having a growth mindset has helped me, and others that have been able to get a grip on themselves to heal.

Healing is going to be done in different ways for different people. I really believe that the MLCer will be punished enough having to stay with the AD/OP, dealing with their personal demons, and the consequences of their actions. Fantasies have a way of fading fast when the reality of being with that person daily sets in. Reality is a cruel teacher when you refuse to face yourself and what's really bothering you. The OP is not the answer and will prove to make a bad situation, worse. We need to make sure we also stay focused on the real world and don't get involved in the fantasy that we will somehow know if and when they will come back. Only the MLCer knows that. Now that's a dose of reality that everyone needs.

The articles and the forum are evolving, and that's a good thing. The context can stay the same, but some of the data has not panned out. In many ways, RCR is conducting a social experiment. That was probably not her intention, but it's the result nonetheless. So far, there haven't been many happy endings. Having said that, it's not over yet. So this is a good place to get a feel for how things can or may go. I used the forum as a crystal ball if you will. Because there were a few women here who were ahead of me in a similar situation. I learned what to do, and more importantly what not to do. For that I'm truly grateful. Learning from other people's mistakes and successes is really a plus on this forum. At least we should all be able to agree on that.

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« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 06:31:37 AM by My3girls »
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1T....
Thank you for your post here.  I could not agree with you more.
Very well said. 
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R
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Phoenix, I have to say that that is one of the best posts that I've read so far. All of your points are valid.

Here's my take, farther up and further in.

I do have a word of caution for newbies who have minor children. RCR did not have minor children at the time of her husband's crisis, waiting is a luxury you do not have. Divorce or get a separation agreement with child support quickly to protect your kids. Hesitation will only make yours and your children's lives more difficult if you are forced to divorce.

In the beginning we're all grasping at straws, it's natural. I also believe that it's dangerous to tell people who have minor children to not give the MLCer the divorce. As I recall RCR didn't have any children at the time of her initial writings. In my case, not only did the XH hide money ( knowledge abuse ), he also found a way to subtract the car payment and a few other things from the child support ( financial and economic abuse ). It has made a detrimental difference in my ability to get back on my feet. Not to mention all the verbal and emotional abuse that the kids and I had suffered through the initial stages.

My point is, had I acted earlier, this wouldn't have happened. I do have hope as well that he will wake up, snap out or whatever. Do I know if he'll want to come back? No. Does it matter to me? No. I've had to start over at a disadvantage. You have to protect yourself and your kids before it's too late. Many of us have found that out the hard way.

I have been trying to stay out of this discussion because quite truthfully I didn't understand the point of the post. This is a forum to provide support for people during a tumultuous time in their lives. I didn't feel that anyone suggested that there was any guarantee of reconciliation. 

I do feel I need to say something about this statement. I have consistently said providing blanket pronouncements about how to act or behave is dangerous. In this case the suggestion made here is that a speedy separation agreement and/or divorce is always a good idea when someone has minor children. I think this is very irresponsible advice. Just because in your situation it is the best advice doesn't mean everyone should go down that path. In my case the longer I stay married the better off my children and I are financially because my husband's income and net worth has continued to grow. I also don't have an mlcer who is out to get me or the kids. I recognize that my situation is not anyone else's which is why I don't tell anyone they must handle it the way I have.

I've seen suggestions that pavers are not growing or are in the way of the mlcer or that lbs are conflict avoiding, codependent, enablers. For a forum built on support I find this offensive. Believe it or not you can stand and grow, pave the way and grow, maintain a relationship with your mlcer and still get out of the way of their crisis.

I can't understand why on a forum that was built on support we constantly make statements that put lbs against lbs instead of creating respect for each of our situations and the myriad of ways we can all choose to successfully weather the crisis. For the record, my idea of success had nothing to do with reconciliation but everything to do with me coming out on the other side a stronger person who has behaved in ways she can be proud of.

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« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 08:32:02 AM by Reallytrying »

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I have to say after reading all these posts have changed how I originally felt about RCR's new post.

I felt the same way nah did when I first read it.  If I had read this as a newbie, not sure I would have stuck around. 
I needed hope. 
I needed to read they can come back.
I didn't want advice on divorce.

Now having read Phoenix's reply, and a few others, I find I'm agree with putting more reality out there.  I've seen too many LBS's who did not take the seriousness of their situation to heart and did nothing until it was too late.  Some were either in denial, too hopeful or afraid to give their spouse the wrong idea and thought it would push them further away.  Some took a big financial hit.

Nah, did not sit around waiting for her H to come around.  She divorced him right away and in my opinion she did the right thing for various reasons.  One, the MLCer is more apt to not fight you over money, houses, alimony, kids, etc., because their guilt is huge in the beginning.
They have not gotten to the "full entitlement" phase yet.

Mind you I have never advocated divorce, nor have I ever been a fan of NC (unless there is physical abuse), but I see once that entitlement kicks in, or they become seriously involved with an OP who is whispering in their ear, they start feeling like they want everything....on their terms.

The reality is that the vast majority of us are going to end up divorced.  I'm not saying we can't reconcile, but we most likely will end up divorced. No matter how well we played our hand.

So maybe putting this information out there right away could save some people from having false hope that their marriage will be different.
Didn't we all think that?  Again I'm not saying the relationship can't be reconciled, but the harsh reality is it will probably be after a divorce.

If there are children involved or money is going to be an issue maybe divorcing sooner rather than later is not a bad idea for some people.
I'm not saying within 5 days, like nah did  ::), but after the shock has worn off some.
If the MLCer wants to come back, they will find a way.

I don't think this information is going to scare anyone off, like someone said, in the beginning we are only taking information we want and leave the rest behind until we are ready to accept it.
So I see no harm in putting it out there if it can help someone.

I also agree not everyone on this site has a true MLCer.  I'm sure there are also spouses who really were very unhappy in their marriage and just wanted out.  Those won't be coming back.
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A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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RT I stand by my advice to newbies, there are more here that have been placed in a dangerous financial situation than have not. If your H is not out to get you, than kudos to you. It seems that the majority of us have not been so blessed. That advice is solely for newbies that have spouses that are ruining them financially. You and I have had our run ins, so this is no surprise that you would pick this topic to expound upon. But I digress... This is a precautionary measure in the case of a forced divorce, which many of us here on the forum have to in the end accept.

Like most have said about the forum: take what you need, and do with it what you will. Your stance as stated is based on YOUR situation, and it's the exception, not the rule. If my advice is dangerous, than the concern is yours being even more so. How do you know that your H isn't doing this to you in secret? You don't. Therefore, until you have a breakthrough in your situation I would suggest that you don't "become a stumbling block" to others. Biblical reference intended.

Just my 2 cents.
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 09:13:59 AM by My3girls »
-You just can't make this s*it up.
-Not my circus, not my monkeys!

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I know I thought that Thunder.

After BD then impending D.

I thought the ex is smarter than this and he'll figure it out sooner than the other men I was reading about here..he didn't. MY situation will be different..it wasn't.
I even laughed when I found out who the exow was six years ago and told my oldest D " He will not throw his family over for her"

But he did.

Its good advice to protect yourself and any minor children at every level from any form of abuse they seem to so freely dish out if you allow it.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.What you allow continues.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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I think that it is probably best to divorce right away in most instances. At the very least, to retain a very good lawyer. One key MLC fantasy is the easy divorce involving no lawyers. I agree that the LBS main goal should be financial protection.

One advantage I can see about doing this later is that the LBS is often more together emotionally, which can be helpful in navigating issues. I have read that oftentimes when someone is blindsided by a divorce they have a hard time advocating for themselves.

Also, I think that a year in (my situation) the MLCer is more of a mess and sloppy with his lies. Many are so arrogant and self assured at bomb drop they don't read as crazy. My ex now looks very unwell and does not come across as together.
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M3G, There is good reason the believe that RTs point is based on the fact she is one of the few members who actually is a professional therapist. And behaves in a way that is consistent with the ethical foundation of the profession. So, she does not give advice.

She has, however, pointed out it is dangerous to give advice.
And especially advice based on your individual experience and, dare I say, individual bias.

One of the foundational principles of good mental health is not to make big decisions while in an emotional state.

Telling people to divorce while BD is early is advising them to make a huge decision while in a tremendously vulnerable state.

re: your Biblical reference. It is helpful to keep in mind other points of guidance, too. Such as eyes, and the planks and specks found in them.
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