[1trouble]

When Air first posted the link to  joe beam's original limerence podcast link, I listened to it a few times and found it very thought provoking.
At the time I was still seeing my therapist (as some of you know she was a neuroscientist of 30 years standing) and I talked to her about limerence.

She said it was an extreme version of infatuation which some people may experience in their lives, but wasn't main stream.  She said whereas most of us have been infatuated at some points of our lives and most relationships start with infatuation, limerence is much more intense feeling and leads to people being completely consumed by the AP and making some crazy decisions, there are similarities to MLC because the limerent person is driven by their need to be with "their love", but there are differences, the is no depression for example.

She felt in my situation H was not limerent but was infatuated and in MLC, because of the way he had described the OW, because of his displayed anhedonia  the constant working and withdrawl prior to the affair discovery.  However, she felt that my H's OW could be a limerent addict, because of her relationship history.

She explained some people can literally be addicted to the high from the dopamine rush and go from one limerent relationship to another and as Joe Beam explained if the person is unobtainable then this just drives the infatuation.  My therapist said stalking behaviour can be a type of limerence.

So what would drive my H's OW's limerence is him still being married and once he divorced me and married her she would lose interest, as she had with her last husband, made sense to me. 
Obviously none of this was proven and is only based on what I had presented to her about OW and H.

As for them being numb and therefore not being able to feel infatuated the two things are mutally exclusive IMO.
They feel numb therefore they cannot feel any actual emotion, but they can have a high because a high is a brain chemical, its not a 'feeling' connected to an emotion.
So IMO, if they are not "feeling" then the high of the infatuation, is mistaken by the MLC'er as a 'feeling' and because they are numb the high of that infatuation is so intense it can mimic the extreme high of someone who is limerent. If that makes sense

From what I have listened to on the Jim Beam podcast (I have only listened to the one so far and that's the original one air posted some months back) it is possible that he as limerent because it can happen, but its also possible he did have a MLC.
Maybe its more palatable to him to believe it was limerence.

[Medusa]

Interesting stuff. I did appreciate his discussion of the three stages but do feel he could have gone deeper into the third. What did he do to try and pull the OW back, for example? He talked a lot but what's very specific.

That said, I did appreciate that he finally got around to using the word "selfish" to describe this unhealthy "love". And I also was pretty interested in the crystallization process.

I think the greater question remains for many of us, though, is if our MLCer did become limerant. Logically it aligns in many ways with MLC, yes, but if noting elsehe timelines are, in my opinion, way off. There are just too many of us who have been at this waaaayyyyyyyy to long and have an MLCer whose been in replay for many years. Perhaps the statistics are skewed because the study subjects are relatively normal people, not MLCers!

[MoreWillBeRevealed]

So this is one of the reasons I'm done. The chances my SBXH will ever be the man I married is so minimal I can't risk living my life as though he will recover even after affair ends. He is a complete train wreck I want no part of. I pity him but do not miss or desire him. This podcast reaffirmed how insane and self-centered the affair down is. But I knew all that. I knew all along SBXH needed OW to validate him at the cost of our marriage, me, his family, and kids. I don't want to be OW's sloppy seconds. I don't see how he'll ever come out of this affair down a good man.

[Anjae]

If, like 1trouble therapis, that was a neuroscientist for 30 yearsS, Limerance does not include depression, than MLCers cannot be/have Limerance. MLCers are depressed.

... but if noting elsehe timelines are, in my opinion, way off. There are just too many of us who have been at this waaaayyyyyyyy to long and have an MLCer whose been in replay for many years. Perhaps the statistics are skewed because the study subjects are relatively normal people, not MLCers!

Yes, maybe the statistics are skewed because the subjects were not having a MLC. The timelines do not match HS reality. Nor my real life reality, of friends and acquaintances that have had/are having MLC.

Billota does not talk about Limerance (not that I know of), he talks about MLC. From what I have seen written here on the board, from people who took Billota's tests, his timelines are also way below our reality.

And yet, early on, I think RCR had MLC at 2 years, max 5 (or even less). She had adjusted it because of what she saw and read on HS.

[Roma]

I agree with 1trouble. It makes perfect sense to me from alll I've read.  Since the MLCer is numb inside and can't feel any emotions, then they confuse the 'chemical high' as a feeling or an emotion or love.

Thanks 1trouble.

[sparklestar]

I do have a question which maybe no one can answer but how does limerance fit with MLCrs that feel 'nothing' there's many a story where the MLCr actually never felt anything for the OW they just liked how she made them feel (ego based affairs)..... any ideas?

It's a one way love. The OW does love them and at some level they know that and it makes them feel important or needed or whatever maybe. But they don't love her back. They are using her for something other than giving love but she actually loves them. They are receiving her love but they aren't giving it back. Does that make sense?

Yes makes sense. I agree. I mean limerance can happen to anyone - it's different when MLC is involved. May be a similar addiction : process but it's going to be different when you've got crazy hormones/depression/issues going on with an MLCr. I think what's interesting is the whole 'shadow self' affair - the link further back in this thread is quite a good one and has lots of articles. Now I understand why these MLCrs go for seemingly totally different affair partners. This is what my IC said to me also -  that H has gone for a person that reflects the issues he's facing. That and the fact it was easy pickings as he worked with her (zero effort required for his lazy ar**)...

[Nas]

I listened to the interview with his wife last night.   Sounds like his LO lost interest in him not very long after he left his family for her.  He said they never lived together and she left him within a year of his leaving his wife, so their total time together was about 2 years and then he had two more years on his own before he called his wife and asked to reconcile.

I agree with 1t that limerence has some differences from infatuation, though they are very, very similar. 
I hadn't heard before though that there is no depression involved in limerence.  I had actually read that people suffering from depression are more prone to limerence. 

Maybe people in MLC are more prone to limerence as well.  From what I've read, people with a low sense of self-worth are more prone to limerence. 

And MLC definitely seems to make people susceptible to looking to another person to make them whole or make their decisions because their brains are too full of chaos.  When you are giving that much power over to another person, I suppose it would make sense that you would put that person on such a pedestal in order to justify giving them so much power over you. 

Anyway, much of what he said on the 3 phases podcast only reinforces all the advice given here.  Any barrier to the relationship will only serve to strengthen it, so it's best to just step back and let it play out.  There's no way to know what will happen, but no good can come from interfering in any way.

It really reinforced a lot of what we all know we have to do.  We have NO say in any of this.  Even in Joe Beam's case, it all hinged on the fact that his LO ended the relationship.  If she hadn't, there's no way to say if he would have eventually ended it.  But it's clear he was still very much wanting the relationship when she ended it.

He said he tried to pull her back in the same ways we've read about the alienator: "Look what I gave up for you..."  And when he did that, his LO just pulled away more. 
Just like in the podcast with his wife, where at the very end she talked about how she did the begging and pleading at first.  And he still left and divorced her.  Her begging and pleading didn't make him stop and think.  He was hellbent on going to the OW and he did.  Nothing she would have said or done would have stopped him.

He also said how he definitely took notice when his wife went on with her life after he left, taking care of herself emotionally and spiritually and showing herself to be a strong and capable woman who would be fine without him.  But he still took 2 years on his own before he wanted to reconcile. 

Another thing he clarified a little that I found helpful was the idea that a person doesn't leave what they have unless they perceive that what they're going to is "better." 
That doesn't mean that in order for the MLCer to want to reconcile, the LBS has to be "better" than what he has meaning the LBS has more money, is more attractive, has a better job, has a more exciting lifestyle, etc.
"Better" just means better in the MLCer's perception, which will be different for everyone.
The MLCer left the LBS because they perceived where they were going was "better" and maybe that meant the MLCer left to go live with a hot mess alienator in a shack with no heat.  But in their skewed perception at the time, that was "better." 

Joe Beam left his wife and kids for "better," moving several hours away to be in a relationship with his LO.  After his LO left him, he said he lived an "ungodly" life of drinking and living like a single man, and for 2 more years he felt that was "better."  He says one day after two years of that, he realized he didn't want to live that way anymore.  He never actually says any specific thing caused him to start feeling that reconciling with his wife would be "better," but it seems that his perception changed and he began to miss what he had. 

We don't know what "better" will be to make them want to look back towards us.  We could change a million things and have a life that makes us appear fabulous and others look at us and think we have it all, but our MLCer still might not want to come back.  So all we can do is what we consider better for us, what we want for us, and if they want to join us one day, they will let us know and we can then decide if we are open to letting them back in. 

Just my thoughts after listening to the two podcasts.  Thanks again for sharing, R2T!!

[1trouble]

I just want to clear something up from my previous post regarding the conversation I had with my therapist.

I think I gave the wrong impression in my post, I did not mean limerent people cannot be depressed.

I meant that it can happen to anyone and doesn't go hand in hand with depression like MLC does.
Though it can cause depression when someone comes out of it.

My therapist said its more like obsessive love that's why she mentioned stalkers and personality disorders
but she said its possible for anyone to have a limerent experience.
 

[Ready2Transform]

1trouble thank you for that post! That definitely clarifies it and I'm glad to have the professional perspective.

We don't know what "better" will be to make them want to look back towards us.  We could change a million things and have a life that makes us appear fabulous and others look at us and think we have it all, but our MLCer still might not want to come back.  So all we can do is what we consider better for us, what we want for us, and if they want to join us one day, they will let us know and we can then decide if we are open to letting them back in. 

Bears repeating.

[Anjae]

Thanks for clarifying, 1trouble.

I still doubt MLCers spend years on end in Limerance/Infatuated with the alienator. They don't.

Mr J's big infatuation with OW1 lasted 16 months in the open. He does not stand, nor give a f*** abou OW2 (his own words). No limerance left between those two. I think there was some infatuation beitween Mr and OW2until mid 2009. Then, it was gone. They still moved in together and are still living together. He is more and more miserable, depresesed, drunk and angry. But, hey, it must be happiness. 

"Better" always makes me laugh. Yeah, your affair partner, who is cheating along with you, is "better". MLcers and non-MLC people who think the affair partner is "better" are on the depths of delusion.