[Did your MLC'er suffer from childhood abuse (physically, emotionally or other)?]

Did your MLC'er suffer from childhood abuse (physically, emotionally or other)?

Yes

65 (70.7%)

No

17 (18.5%)

Don't Know

10 (10.9%)

Total Members Voted: 92

[BrenM]

I totally agree hormones have a major impact on our lives and appreciate not all will agree with my point of view. I feel the study of hormonal fluctuations and behaviour could give us a better insight into what we now call MLC and would welcome responses from people who have gone through this phenomenon and with hindsight can link it with hormonal activity.

Jackolar - I have been thinking about your theory.

My H as I have previously stated was diagnosed with very low testosterone levels immediately after BD.  Approximately 4 months prior to BD he was extremely depressed, had sleepless nights, which I assumed was due to stress within his work due to mass redundancies. 

Your post has got me thinking 🤔🤔.  After researching the symptoms of Andropause I believe that he may well have been experiencing this (and still is). 

About 2 years prior to BD my H commenced a gym/fitness obsession. And I mean obsession, he was addicted.  He was (and I believe still is) taking various hormone stimulants (pre-work outs, protein powders and steroids) in order to build muscle and maintain stamina.  In your opinion, how would the addition of artificial hormones and steroids have on a middle aged person going through andropause symptoms?

As I have mentioned his personality is totally opposite to how he was.  Aggression is beyond. He has abandoned his once idolised children...he was very proud of being a dad....now he has vanished. 

[Anjae]

I'm not Jack, but I can tell you steroids are never good, aside from specific medical conditions. Even on those cases they have to been taken with extreme care and under medical supervision.

What do you mean by artificial hormones? Synthetic hormones, like the ones that replicates testosterone? Always better to take bio-identical ones. In either case, they must be prescribed by a doctor and a person needs to be regularly checked. Excess causes damages. Also, often dosage needs to be adjusted. A endocrinologist must be consulted and blood tests taken.

If your husband is going the route many men (and even women) go of taking steroids and hormones for fitness purposes he is putting himself at danger. Hormones and steroids, regarless of age or gender must always be taken with extreme care. They are very dangerous substances if not.

As I have mentioned his personality is totally opposite to how he was.

This is normal in MLC even if the cause is not hormones related or the person does not have your husband's situation. It is impossible to know exactly what changed him, hormones being a good possibility. But since he is on steroids and taking hormones, who knows how much more damage he has caused to the existing situation.

Aggression is beyond.

Normal with steroids and taking hormones. Also normal is MLC. Since is taking the mentioned substances, the agression may had been worsened.

Why is he taking steroids and hormones?

[BrenM]

Why is he taking steroids and hormones?

Yes I am fully aware of the risks and danger of steroids. 

He is now a gym junkie....obviously for enhancing muscle mass and performance.  Trying to remain young physically.  Steroid use unfortunateky is epidemic amongst the young men worldwide. 

I believe that the combination of Andropause, steroid and hormone use, depression has exacerbated his MLC symptoms and actions.

[Anjae]

I believe that the combination of Andropause, steroid and hormone use, depression has exacerbated his MLC symptoms and actions.

And I would agree.

Yes, steroid use by young men, and not so young men, is a world epidemic. Even women are jumping on the trend.

Gym junkie ... taking steroids and hormones at middle age. Truly hope nothing happens to him.

[BrenM]

Gym junkie ... taking steroids and hormones at middle age. Truly hope nothing happens to him.

So do we...but as you know we can do knowing...love and care from a distance.  He is a train wreck waiting to occur sadly....

[Anjae]

So do we...but as you know we can do knowing...love and care from a distance.  He is a train wreck waiting to occur sadly....

I know. It is so sad.

[Ready2Transform]

R2T
That's a good article you shared.
That actually fits my W pretty good.  The low serotonin. 
Funny it mentioned MLC too. Is it all of it??? IDK. But it dang sure could be a factor.

I really believe it is. The perfect storm! I don't think we use that phrase around here as much any more, but it sure fits.

That's my main question. Let a say it was.
How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???
I read to where people that were abused as children have lower serotonin levels later on. Women on birth control pills have lower serotonin also. More depression.
Also said levels are lower when less sum is out. Vitamin D is low.
Makes alot of sense with my W.

xH went on his own accord. I guess you could say I was lucky in that regard, except as Anjae points out below, it didn't have a clean outcome. He was also diagnosed with low D. I too had a crisis, and I believe the birth control pills I was on at the time were a contributing factor. But early menopause also runs in my family, and likely was part of what I went through as well. So many things to add to the list!

How do you talk and get their crazy self to he see a doctor???

As a general rule, you don't. And when they go see a doctor is does not seem to work or go well at all.

Ready2's husband saw a doctor that diagnosed him with bipolar and gave him SSRI, an anti-depressant for serotonine. It only made things worst.

It's hard to say if long term it would have helped or not, because both his psych and a therapist had a plan with him, and he wouldn't follow it. At one point one of the meds he was on (Celexa) did clear his mind, but physically the side effects were horrible. It was after the switch to the next drug that I saw the significant negative reaction mentally that he never returned from, and of course, he stopped taking them cold turkey which also did its damage.

SSRI drugs, I have learned, are usually a bad choice for bipolars (at least without a separate mood stabilizer along with them). Higher risk of mania. Which is what I saw.

I had read up on Pyroluria, which is chronic deficiency in B6 and Zinc (creators of serotonin). I asked a few pharmacist friends if they thought someone with chronic low serotonin should be on an SSRI, since those drugs don't actually create more serotonin, they just reuse faster what is already in the body than what the body naturally would, sort of creating the illusion of more serotonin. One said perfectly that it would be like having a vineyard with a low yield of grapes one year, and trying to squeeze the grapes harder to get more juice out of them to meet your quota. Not gonna work. So it was a doomed plan, but there wasn't enough time for the professionals to get there with him to find that out.

It's all equally as fascinating as it is heartbreaking. 

[Anjae]

SSRI drugs, I have learned, are usually a bad choice for bipolars (at least without a separate mood stabilizer along with them). Higher risk of mania. Which is what I saw.

They are. Even with a mood stabilizer along with them. Probably because bipolar does not have much to do with serotonin. Aripiprazole (Abilify) an atypical antipsychotic and Bupropion an atypical anti-depresant (Elontril/Wellbutrin, etc) along with a mood stabilizer have a better effect. And Lamotrigine is a great med for bipolar. It comes from neurology.


My wallower cousin was brought back to normal by my friend who is a psychiatrist with a smart combination of Lamotrigine, Elontril and Alprazolam. Elontril was the first med to go, Alprazolam the last. He was then given an anti-anxiety which name is escaping to take for a while and then keep for SOS. He still has it, but hardly ever takes it. Only when he feels more stressed.

I am fairly, it not totally, certain, that lack of vitamins and minerals is involved in the MLC mess. Most likely low vitamins D, B6, B12, B9 (folate), magnesium and zinc. There may be others. Zinc, like Iron can be dangerous and is best left for a doctor to prescribe. Another thing I think MLCers miss is vitamin C.

True, SSRI don't make more serotonin. Nor do the domapine targeting ones make more dopamine. They just use existing one. It really is not a great idea. But it has been what doctors go for. Time to start to think of things differently.

Professionals should know the effects of SSRIs in bipolar and that they don't create more serotonine. The physicall and/or mental side effects can be terrible with any type of anti-depressants, but SSRIs are more prone to those.

I think it is more heartbreaking.

[Not Applicable]

Several people have mentioned you can't study MLC because no MLCer would willingly submit to medical exams for it.

I think the way it might be eventually identified would be in some sort of longitudinal study where they follow kids from childhood to old age and have some sort of record of the abuse they suffered as children as part of that. And then they would notice higher divorce rates, mental issues, whatever, in middle age, in those children who suffered abuse. There may already be studies that show that but the only way it really think it is something you can't simply study in isolation AFTER it hits.

Even if you think the issue is hormones, you would need a before and after measurement of hormone levels in the individual to know if that really was a factor. Again, only in an ongoing longitudinal study are you going to get that kind of information as a byproduct.

I know there are a few studies like this in existence but who knows whether they have collected the kind of data that could be mined for this.

[Treasur]

My gut instinct, and the evidence of my then h's behaviour, suggested to me that the SSRI he was on - bc his crippling depression and anxiety did make him go to see a psychiatrist initiallly - probably tamped the symptoms down enough to stop him killing himself. But it also left him an emotional zombie who was almost addicted to doing what his psychiatrist said and believing he would be on SSRIs for the rest of his life bc the psychiatrist said so.

My instinct after several months was that something was missing from the picture...and then boom, BD and off to the wacky races. Logic told me that he was still unrecognisable, still obviously broken if functional and still nothing like the person he had been before. That if he had lived well without medication for almost two decades, it was logical to assume that after a given period, he could do so again. That the psychiatrist had not known him before...it was very frustrating actually to see rationally from the outside that something about his treatment was obviously not working after more than a year, dang more than two years actually, to know that his behaviour was not normal or like him but no one would listen to me at all. Did the SSRI make it worse? Did he need a mood stabiliser? Was he lying to his psychiatrist? Did ow replace medication? Is he still medicated to the eyeballs? No idea.

I have no idea what the 'answer' was, or what was missing...just that rationally to me I saw him get more and more extreme and bonkers not less...so something wasn't right. But I had to accept that there was simply nothing at all that I could do about it, that as much as I wanted to support his recovery regardless of whether our m made it or not, everyone else including him saw my voice as irrelevant.

It was one of the most painful things to accept actually after being part of a loving team for almost two decades. That there was nothing I could do and that I was being judged poorly for even wanting to.