[Velika]

I think Phoenix makes a good point about time being our friend. Not just in healing but perhaps also in providing answers. (Sometimes directly from the MLCer, as Phoenix points out.)

I think for this reason being aware that other syndromes and diseases can manifest like MLC in the early stages is helpful. If our spouse starts to deteriorate this information might even be lifesaving.

One thing to note is that a person with certain type of mental illness and disorders are able to multitask. This is true of bvFTD where a person in the early stages has an intact memeory and intellectual ability. I was even told that someone with bipolar can do this as well. All to say, our idea of mental illness is often very skewed to the point where even when we are directly observing it, we still have trouble trusting what we intuitively know because we have preconceived ideas about what a "crazy" person behaves like.

Learning about a lot of different topics has helped me to find more ways to see and understand and in a way I hope integrate my experience. This includes spiritual, scientific, psychological, artistic, and personal reflection and inquiry. In a way I feel like this experience takes us to the heart of life and what it means to be a human being. Who could not want to know more about this after what we have been through?

A small tip, since large discussions like this can often end up feeling high stakes. If you are new to this forum and find someone who has a very similar story to you who you really mesh with, it can be very helpful to chat offline. This can make it easier to share personal information and even photos that can often create a more nuanced picture than we are able to depict here for privacy reasons. Sometimes it is these details that can help us see, yes, there is something definitely beyond the temporary insanity of MLC at work there.

I also want to say bv, I think you are brave for posting here and also for reaching out with your story. Learning about FTD has helped me undersrand the brain more and helped me to find more context for my own story. I appreciate anyone who tries in a thoughtful way to introduce new information that may help one, some, or all of us.

[Anjae]

Yes it does. Without knowing the cause we won't find the cure.

I agree. It is important to know the cause to find the cure.

But around here it is normally thought nothing can be done about MLC. I am not so certain. Nothing can be done because no one is truly studying what it is and what causes it. I don't buy the missed development stages or childhood issue. If childhood issues were the cause, pretty much anyone in Africa and Asia was having a MLC. Or in the Middle East. Many of those people had terrible - terrible, what am I saying, horrendous - childhoods, because of war, because of starvation. They have been through things we cannot even imagine. They aren't all, nor most, having a MLC.

uthor=Phoenix link=topic=9379.msg618844#msg618844 date=1506347957]
Insanity is not selective. People aren't "insane" in one area of their lives and sane in every other.
[/quote]

Insane, or clinically insane is laypeople talk and used, in the US in a legal context, but psychiatrists do not use it. The word used in Portugal is Inimputável (it does not mean insane) - a person whose mental illness ou mental develpment does not allow them to be responsible for their actions, and is not capable of understanding the illegal/wrong action that have commited).

Not everyone that suffers of a mental illness is Ineputável. That would depend of the illness and its severity, and only a psychiatrist, or a body of psychiatrists, can determine is someone is Ineputável. 

Mental illness is on a spectrum. People with several mental illnesses can be perfectly normal in some areas of their lives, but not in others. Or not when they are off their meds. So, yes, mental illness is often selective.

Depressed people aren't insane, they are depressed.

Doing insane things and being insane is not the same. MLCers are depressed, depression is an illness.

I was even told that someone with bipolar can do this as well.

Depending of the severy of Bipolar - that as with everything has a spectrum - and if the person is taking the meds, they can.
 
Time is only a friend of someone with bvFTD, or with any degenerative disease, if a cure is found in the meantime. Otherwise, time only means the person is going to get worst.

And there is a big difference between being a LBS of a MLC and the spouse of a person with a degenerative disease.

Those of you that live in the US are used to serial killers and mass shooters. Many of those people, especially mass shooters, lead perfectably normal lives. No one suspected them until they did their horrible act. And what one often hears people say is how nice and normal those people were. If they were "insane", others had noticed, but no one did. And, yet, those people are deeply troubled and have some serious mental, at times even neurological, issues.

[Not Applicable]

I don't buy the missed development stages or childhood issue. If childhood issues were the cause, pretty much anyone in Africa and Asia was having a MLC. Or in the Middle East. Many of those people had terrible - terrible, what am I saying, horrendous - childhoods, because of war, because of starvation. They have been through things we cannot even imagine. They aren't all, nor most, having a MLC.

But how do you know they aren't having an MLC? And I think there is a huge difference between childhood abuse perpetuated by FOO and being the victim of an enemy in a war where your parents may still do their best to protect you, or a famine, where there is no obvious human abuser and the parents may still show love and care in spite of their adverse circumstances.

I'd say rates of MLC are very very high in the Middle East and Africa, but not necessarily due to war and famine, but maybe you just don't know what to look for to recognize the tell tale signs of it and because the members here aren't from those places. In fact, I think in many African and Middle Eastern countries, there are social and legal differences that make it a lot easier to have and get away with an MLC, especially as a man.

I regularly correspond here with at least 3 other members whose husbands whose childhood abuse or neglect by family members is a huge part of their MLC and whose husbands come from 3 different continents than my own husband or yours. Maybe you don't see it in your own husband's case because you don't know enough about his background or because he is gone, but those of us who do, it's so in your face as to be glaringly and overwhelmingly obvious. It seems your husband hasn't come out of it yet either so maybe it is something else in his case.

[Velika]

I think Goner is absolutely correct. I think it is extremely noteworthy the high levels of reported childhood abuse on this forum.

Childhood abuse is also a correlation to NPD. The confusing thing for many of us is that NPD did not seem to be evident in our pre-MLC spouses and many times our spouses do things that do not seem consistent for an image-conscious NPD. (E.g. leaving attractive spouse for affair down.)

I read that if the ventromedial prefrontal cortex is impaired a person has trouble regulating PTSD. This might offer a partial neurological explanation as to what could happen in MLC. (If you read about ventromedial prefrontal cortex lesions you have pretty much an exact description of MLC, FWIW. When I called UCSF I was told that vmpf is involved in bvFTD as well.

Goner also makes important point that how a person carries out a MLC may be at least partially dictated by their cultural environment. There was an interesting discussion about this once where a poster mentioned her uncle had a MLC and spent about three years in ashrams. In some countries/cultures legal polygamy might disguise a MLC. In other places where affairs have less stigma a person in MLC might not divorce the spouse but instead carry on a long-term liaison. In some places where prostitution is rampant, this may disguise the problem somewhat.

It's very sad. MLC or whatever this is, is heartbreaking.

[Ready2Transform]

Childhood abuse is also a correlation to NPD. The confusing thing for many of us is that NPD did not seem to be evident in our pre-MLC spouses and many times our spouses do things that do not seem consistent for an image-conscious NPD. (E.g. leaving attractive spouse for affair down.)

I like that you said, "seem to be," because I think as some of us progress on we can objectively look back and see patterns where things weren't quite balanced. My xH's father is textbook NPD and it was unbearable. The whole family's life is centered around it, which is why I think so many of them are disordered. But with my xH, he definitely didn't present in the same way, but there were some tendencies that I think were learned.

Throughout our dating life, if I GAL'ed (my first full-time job, college, normal things), he would quickly find other women to give him attention. Cheating? I have no way to know now. But he was someone who couldn't be without some sort of narc feed, and he didn't look for it from other men.

He was controlling in the same way as his father when it came to being the "driver" (even when I had a working vehicle, most of the time he would taxi me everywhere and even with friends, stay on as a third wheel so he know what I was doing, or set a strict "pick up" time like a parent).

By the time of BD, I had no local friends and his family were the only people I socialized with, which was not positive for me. I think that's a form of isolation we see a lot around here, too, without realizing it. Because it doesn't feel malicious! We were best friends. I had a car accident in 1997, so anytime after that I didn't have to drive I had less anxiety. He was *helping*. He stays in the room while I'm having band practice with my friends because he loves the music, right? He has a great ear and can help us get better.  You accommodate until they walk out and you're left with nothing of your own.

Not saying my xH *is* a narc, because he has only ever been diagnosed bipolar. But I've benefited from some of the narc abuse gurus' work online that give direction on how to heal from that.

And I've learned from that too that the affair down concept still carries over. It isn't always about attractiveness as much as it is about who they are getting more adoration from, while putting in less effort. LBSs hold spouses accountable - narcs and/or MLCers don't get a feed from that.

[Anjae]

But how do you know they aren't having an MLC?

For a start, because they can't afford to. Most people in Africa and Asia cannot afford to leave the lives they lead, let alone having a MLC.

And I think there is a huge difference between childhood abuse perpetuated by FOO and being the victim of an enemy in a war where your parents may still do their best to protect you, or a famine, where there is no obvious human abuser and the parents may still show love and care in spite of their adverse circumstances.

Many of the children under war, especially in Africa, have no parents. And they are often abused by those who look after them. And, how do you think the girls taken by Boko Haram and the likes were treated even if they have parents?

The surviving/returning ones, ff they were American they would all be in therapy and with issues for the rest of their lives. And, probably, when adults, having a MLC. But they are poor and African, so, the lucky ones that return just carry on with their lives.
Of course there is MLC in Asia and Africa, among the handful of rich people that lead a Western lifestyle.

Did you ever come across anyone on this site who had a MLCer who couldn't afford his/her crisis? I haven't. Nor in real life. MLCers are people that can afford having a MLC. In fact, MLC seems to be a problem/illness of afluence. We have old threads where we debate it.

If childhood abuse was the cause of MLC everyone that has been abused in childhood would be having a MLC. They aren't. I wasn't abused or neglected as a child and have had a MLC. My cousin who had a MLC was not abused of neglected. Nor was Mr J. Nor any of the real life MLCers I know.

And I don't think most here have an abused MLCer. At least, that is not what I recall from the more than 4000 single users HS has. LBS on HS with abused MLCers may stand out, but not all LBS on HS have  MLCers that were abused.

Maybe you don't see it in your own husband's case because you don't know enough about his background or because he is gone, but those of us who do, it's so in your face as to be glaringly and overwhelmingly obvious.

I know my husban's background back to the XIII century - yes, you are reading it right, XIII century. I would say that is backgroud enough. And would also say you have never read my threads nor are familiar with what I have posted about my husband. Otherwise, you would know I know is more close background well enough to know what is problem regarding MLC may be - FIL was a womanizer, who started getting misstresses when MIL was pregnant with Mr J.

A man having mistresses was normal by then around here. No one would care. Wife was for having children and stay home, mistress to sleep with and take out.

However, I fail to see how cheating on his own wife is going to solve Mr J's problem with his dad or whatever. Mr J's MLC actions are only making it much worst for him. And solving nothing.

Mr J is gone, but we were together since he was 17 and for 20 years afterwards. I know all that there is is to known about him. I can tell you that there was no abuse and no neglect.

The only think obvious to me about Mr J and his crisis is that he was depressed. And that, since he left, he drinks and drinks and drinks. And is always out clubbing and djing.

And that, of course, he can more than afford to have his MLC. When it ends he still has the family property and money to inherit. In the meanwhile, he makes enough to blow and he blew all the money we had.

[Ready2Transform]

Did you ever come across anyone on this site who had a MLCer who couldn't afford his/her crisis? I haven't. Nor in real life. MLCers are people that can afford having a MLC. In fact, MLC seems to be a problem/illness of afluence. We have old threads where we debate it.

This is not completely accurate though. There are some people here who would be considered below the poverty line in the western world. My xH had not worked for years at the time of BD, and we were living on loans from my father and credit cards because my work alone could not keep up with his lifestyle. After he left the business took off in a much bigger way, which is what helped me personally, but the years of the recession were from hand to mouth. I bring it up lest anyone else posting here feel they don't belong if they are in a paycheck-to-paycheck situation where a spouse is a bull in a china shop regardless of how little sense that makes.

[Anjae]

There are some people here who would be considered below the poverty line in the western world.

I think you mean in the US. My cousins who live in the US say that those who make less than 49 thousand dolares a year are poor in the US. A Portuguese who makes 49 thousand euros a year is very, very well off.

I think people on HS do not know how much is minimum wage in Portugal. Currently it is 530 euros gross. I always smile when I see people in the US saying 7 or 10 dolares an hour is low. Try getting 7 or 10 euros an hour in Portugal. Portugal is not Germany or Sweden, not even, when it comes to wages Greece, but we are all part ot the European Union = Western World.

Poor people do not have credit cards in Portugal (nor in many other places in the world). And poor people do not have a dad that can loan them money. Nor do they own homes/have mortgages.

Most people in Portugal live paycheck to paycheck. With our wages that is no surprise.

I think our concept of poor is different. For me poor is poor. No money, no credit card, no loan from dad, nothing.

When I read around the threads I normally see big or nice houses, cars, thousands of dolares being mentioned, etc. I have not come across anyone here that was poor poor. Or, at least, not in my concept of poor.

Regardless, Hoss has been able to afford his crisis, hasn't he? You were the one left with financial problems. He is out there living his MLC life. He may not be one of the most well off MLCers, but he can afford his crisis manias.

To leave it clear, I said the MLCer can afford the crisis. Not that the couple or the LBS can afford the MLCer crisis. Because the MLCer will even take what the couple/LBS & children would need to afford they crisis. They don't care.

[Ready2Transform]

With all due respect Anjae, I don't think you meant for that to come off as crass. I understand the image the rest of the world has of the USA is probably that of entitlement right now. But there are plenty of people (myself included) who weren't just skipping salon appointments because of the MLC spending. When I say borrowed money from my dad, he is a pensioner, not a wealthy benefactor. I mean I had no food. I stretched a few cans of vegetables and a loaf of bread for weeks after he left. I had a mortgage, yes, that was acquired during better times, but it went into pre-foreclosure more times than I can count. I was on the brink of homelessness up until this year. I don't want to call out individuals who may not want their names mentioned (and some no longer post here), but I know of LBSs who had to go on welfare to feed their kids and at least one and their MLCer moved in with their children when they were evicted from their home.

I get what you mean - I do - but I am not referring to people who were discomforted by MLC, who had to buy used cars instead of a new one, etc. I don't think, based on our own discussions of the neurochemical background of MLC over the years, that it discriminates against the poor. In fact, I can think of nothing more cortisol-inducing than poverty. All of us LBSs are equals in the face of its wrath, which is why the topic doesn't come up very much.

Yes, Hoss continues to use people and I am freshly bankrupt. Where he is not rich, he continues to be resourceful.

[Anjae]

The US have always seemed entitled before the rest of the world, not just now.

And it is not untrue that wages are much higher in the US than in many parts of the world. Many people want to go for America for a reason, make good money and, if possible, live the American dream.

I know your dad is a  pensioner and not a wealthy benefactor. But he still had the money to help. I am not saying your dad is rich, just that he could help. Just like my grandmother, also a pensioner, was still able to help me.

But you are talking about you and other LBS, I was talking about the MLCer. It is on my previous post: "To leave it clear, I said the MLCer can afford the crisis. Not that the couple or the LBS can afford the MLCer crisis. Because the MLCer will even take what the couple/LBS & children would need to afford they crisis. They don't care."

Yes, Hoss continues to use people and I am freshly bankrupt. Where he is not rich, he continues to be resourceful.

This is another example how the MLCer will make it. Because they always find a way.

In Portugal, poor people seem to turn to cheap wine - and the younger ones, to drugs, at a very early age. Not to MLC.

Poor people are used to have nothing or very little, and would be glad to have, in every way, what our MLCers had. But it was not enough for our MLCers. Be it the love, the money, the house, whatever. Nothing of what they had was enough for a MLCer.

In a way, MLCers are very ungrateful people. And people who don't even get that others have it far, far worst than them.

All poor people want is to stop being poor and have a nice/good life. MLcers want to destroy the nice/good life they have. 

We have talked about this before, MLC seems to be a disease or di-sease of affluence/Western way of life were only material stuff and status counts.