[WHY]

I was just thinking.  3 to upwards of 7 years.  Why not look back to 2017 to see if any of those MLCers are coming out of it around the halfway+ mark here in 2024.

35 pages.  There must nearly be 80-100 stories no?

So what happened to all those MLCers?  I’ve read maybe one recon story. 

Did anyone keep a spreadsheet and log the outcomes for the stories we know about?

I get people don’t always come back and post an update 6+ years later.  Still.   Are the recon rates just so low and that’s why never get updates?  I’m beginning to suspect that’s the case….

[Songanddance]

Are the recon rates just so low and that’s why never get updates?  I’m beginning to suspect that’s the case….

Two things here.  Recon rates are low but that doesn't mean that's why there are no updates. 
Some LBSers on here just feel that they don't want to share anymore.  People who have reconciled rarely post for a whole host of reasons.
Time is often the cause rather than the need or lack of need to post.   
I ve been here for nearly 11 years now and find I only want to update every now and then, and sometimes LBSers who joined the same time as me have vanished.  When I joined my then mentor reconciled 18 months later and disappeared completely.
After a period of time - some people just choose not to post anymore.

Your situation is unique to you.  If you look for the law of averages or % of reconciliations to help you keep your faith in restoring your marriage then it will not help.  In the early days of course such stories give hope to the new LBSer; ultimatelty though it's your growth that will determine your outcome not statistics or stories. 

[WHY]

I just think if people had happy endings.  They would come back to post and give people hope.  Even if 10 years had passed. 

The lack of happy stories leads me to believe there are few.

[marvin4242]

I just think if people had happy endings.  They would come back to post and give people hope.  Even if 10 years had passed. 

The lack of happy stories leads me to believe there are few.

As others have said we may never know the exact numbers. And most of us in the "early days" look for a way to restore what we had. But the truth is (as is always said) what we had is gone, finished, done. It is a very difficult truth and just like grieving a loss we can't take it all in at once. So we find our own path through this. Some will immediately move on, others will try to get footing first then decide. The decision can be anything from moving on, to moving forward while keeping a door open, to setting a deadline for themselves, or decide to not decide.

Having said all this my view has always been this is a MAJOR pscyological event that happens to our MLCers (assuming it is not just a case of someone leaving a marriage). This kind of collapse simply does not "fix itself" with time. So I have never understood this belief that relationships will be restored if you just believe. I can understand and fully believe that IF someone who has had a major fracture engaged fully in a therapeutic process, went to therapy, spent a great deal of effort they can get to a place of integration and healing. And that process depending on the issues and the individual has a broad timeline (usually in 2-10 years). It does not apply to someone who is still actively in denial and avoidance.

So it is not surprising to me that there is no large list of restored marriages. I understand this is a difficult truth, but I have always found we have to live in reality the way it is, not how we wish it to be.

[FrenchHusband]

Hi Why,

For your information I am currently checking the datas of all male LBS with more than 10 posts that are recorded as members. I want to figure out some statistics. Currently I have done almost 25%. There are many stories for which the status is unknown, but I hope I can come back later with some useful results (even with bias).

[WHY]

Hi Why,

For your information I am currently checking the datas of all male LBS with more than 10 posts that are recorded as members. I want to figure out some statistics. Currently I have done almost 25%. There are many stories for which the status is unknown, but I hope I can come back later with some useful results (even with bias).

Amazing thank you.  I’m sure RCR is recording this data for her PHD/book haha.   But as a LBS in the trenches.  It would be helpful to know this kind of stuff.

I genuinely believe that if people reconciled. Or the MLCer wanted to return.   That people that were involved with this forum would return with an update.  Especially the folks that have spent months/years here.    No I suspect the lack of update is genuinely because the LBS has closed the door and moved on. 

[Songanddance]

Since stories of 2016 the following male LBSers who have reconciled are BBhelp and The Navigator

Female LBsers who have reconciled and have listed updated stories 2016 - 2022 are:  Jagger, Acorn, Stayed, Rainbow Gal, Finding Joy, No Expectations, Mermaid, Sada, 31 and Counting, Heart to Heart, Sobeit, Crazy Train, Unbroken, HappierDaysAhead22, Summer Progress, Finding Hope, Hope and Faith, Notgivinguponu, JD, holdinontohope.

There are definitely more before 2016. 

Many of the above don't post anymore but a few do from time to time.

[Biscuit]

And I think there are far more female LBS's on HS than male too, at least it feels that way? Maybe a mod would know?

[Biscuit]

Also S and D's list of reconciled HS posters is a stark reminder that very few LBS's do find their paths forward resulting in reconciliation with their spouse, for whatever reason. Maybe some LBS's don't come back to post, but we all know, and tell each other all the time - the odds are slim - don't count on it as your only way out of this dog $h!te situation. Your way out is to push yourself through the hurt and the pain and discover and love yourself as an individual again (maybe for the first time in your life). 
No matter how you look at the stats - the odds are clearly pretty low for reconciliation. But what are the odds that the LBSer comes through this as a stronger, more self aware and generally better person? I'd like to focus on that actually - because from what I've read and seen on here those odds are stacked way in our favour - in fact there are very few stories of the LBS making it through a year or two and not feeling like they've grown in some way.

[WHY]

Since stories of 2016 the following male LBSers who have reconciled are BBhelp and The Navigator

Female LBsers who have reconciled and have listed updated stories 2016 - 2022 are:  Jagger, Acorn, Stayed, Rainbow Gal, Finding Joy, No Expectations, Mermaid, Sada, 31 and Counting, Heart to Heart, Sobeit, Crazy Train, Unbroken, HappierDaysAhead22, Summer Progress, Finding Hope, Hope and Faith, Notgivinguponu, JD, holdinontohope.

There are definitely more before 2016. 

Many of the above don't post anymore but a few do from time to time.

Thank you for this.  Really.  I’m glad to at least see a few happy endings. 

Interesting that the men don’t return to update as much.   Could be female MLCers are in the wind.  But could also be men just aren’t as chitty chatty with this kind of stuff.  I bet it’s the latter unless RCR has more intel on female MLCers? 

Bottom line.  Reconciliation is so low. 35 pages of stories and a handful of returns.  So many lives destroyed. 

I’m with you on the LBS growing to be bulletproof.   We have the tools to develop coping mechanisms I think.  Sure the first 1-2 years we face the inferno.  But after that our skin turns to armor. At least that’s how I’m starting to feel.   

I just hope for reconnection for coparenting reasons.  Life’s too short to live in the tunnel.  It seems like such a miserable place too.  Like they think they’re choosing this new path to fantasyland.   But honestly from my point of view, it sucks. 

[Reinventing]

Songanddance, there was a female LBS who had a short name that started with an "E" who also reconciled. Her H returned in a relatively short period of time. It seems like she would have fallen between 2016 and 2022.

[FrenchHusband]

And I think there are far more female LBS's on HS than male too, at least it feels that way? Maybe a mod would know?

I will say around 10% - 20% are male overall. It looks to me the trend is more balanced in the last years.

In the stories I read, many are interrupted brutally. So I try to classify in 3 main groups : uncertain - divorced - under reconnection/regrets (last group includes reconciliation/rebuilding stories)

I don't take in account the stories that are "ongoing" like yours or mine, Biscuit, unless divorce papers signed or "recognized" Reconnection.

Partial results with 50 stories from 3longyrs to FacePalm
8 are "under reconnection"
21 are "uncertain"
20 are "divorced" (including 1 reconnected)
1 is dead (RIP  )

[WHY]

French are these 51 separate stories from 2016 over the 35 pages?  I thought there would be way more, maybe 100?

If so, 8/50 is what 15% reconnection rate.  Sounds higher than I thought?   And that excludes the men who may be reconnecting but don’t update?

[FrenchHusband]

French are these 51 separate stories from 2016 over the 35 pages?  I thought there would be way more, maybe 100?

If so, 8/50 is what 15% reconnection rate.  Sounds higher than I thought?   And that excludes the men who may be reconnecting but don’t update?

Actually I do not check the pages from a specific year, my entry point is the member list. I don't check the years, some stories are from 2010. I have done almost 25% of the total so at the end I expect around 200 stories with my criteria (male LBS, more than 10 posts, relevant story)

Yes it is right the reconnection rate is not taking into account the ones reconnecting but not updating, unless I have a hint that the reconnection has been done only 1 e.g. : bennhurr

[WHY]

Ooooh.  Yeah if the stories go back to 2010 then I’m not sure it’s gonna be a good reconnection rate at all….    I’m guessing the more recent ones will be so much lower dragging down the overall %. 

Thanks for doing the crunch.   It’s really interesting. 

[Songanddance]

And I think there are far more female LBS's on HS than male too, at least it feels that way? Maybe a mod would know?

Yes there are although the number of men signing up is growing. 

No matter how you look at the stats - the odds are clearly pretty low for reconciliation.

Not necessarily.  Many of the members on here stay for just a very short while preferring to go to other forums or websites. Hearts Blessing for example who did reconcile and posted on here then set up her own website. 

What I'm getting at is this:

Out of the 6006  signed up members of this forum
only 660 have posted more than 120 times.
 661- 1440 have posted more than 10 times and 
1441 -2071 have posted between 1 and 10 times. 

This leaves 3029 who have simply registered but not posted. So their stories will never be known.

Logically, we can assume that the 660 who have posted more than 120 times are the ones who will possibly have charted reconnection or reconciliation.

However a few of those 660 were asked to leave the site for breaking code of conduct, a few are no longer with us and a few were "done and divorced"  even before they registered.
Some have also gone on to newer and happier relationships and that's wonderful.

Here are another few that have dark purple and therefore considered reconciled:  Forever Standeer, Wondering, Patience, Crazy for Him, Hyperglad,Resilient, Evas, Mamma Bear (amazing threads), Marriage Recovery and Sassyone

So in total 32 reconciliation stories - even though there may have been more but they chose not to journal it.

So yes the odds of reconciliation are low - this forum doesn't ever pretend that they aren't.  However the chances of reconnection seem higher as there are quite a few light purples too.....

However if you want a good reconciliation story/ thread to connect to then I highly recommend Stayed.  She no longer posts and speaks from the hip but this is a really interesting thread. Happy reading!

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4955.0

[KayDee]

If you go to the old story threads, there used to be a way to select the pink and purple stories, like here

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=37.0;p=10

But after 2015, it seems like this function was removed.

In my early days, I confess to a lot of reading of people's stories. Wish I had kept notes for you Why because I was actually surprised by how many MLCr attempted a return or did indeed return. But then, we have no way of knowing the longevity and sustainability of these reconnections - as everyone has said. What I know is this - the crisis creates a lot of damage. Often, so much that the non-crisis spouse cannot move beyond it. Honestly, 18 months in, I think I am there. I suspect I am not alone. I used to think it was a bit of a platitude that the 'LBS gets to choose' now I know that is more likely true that not. If only there was some sort of Crisis Hut that the person in crisis could disappear to for the duration, you know, for damage limitation. But there isn't, and we get all kinds of hurt and abuse. OK, off my soapbox now...

Evas was the name someone was looking for I think.

[WHY]

100% agree.  The LBS is the one that chooses. 

It does seem though that the vast majority of MLCers do want to reconnect and possibly return.  I don’t have data.  Just a gut feel.  From the 3 people I’ve spoken to live and from Hearts Blessing and teachings here. 

But it seems like reconciliation rates are extremely low, 5-15% maybe, who knows. 

So if 90% of MLCers want to return but 10% reconcile.  That difference lies in the hands of the LBS.  And it’s clear that LBS in general decide to move on.

There are just so many things we don’t know about MLC.  I mean to me it’s a massive psychological event.   The MLC has psychosis and does not view the world around them for what it is.  They live in their own alternative version of reality.  That sounds like mental illness to me.

But my biggest question is why does it take so long to work through?  I mean sometimes 10 years???  That’s half the time a lot of us have been married.  I mean that’s crazy.   That not a “phase someone grows out of”.  That’s a rewiring of your entire brain and way of thinking overnight.   Why we don’t understand more about this event is beyond me

[KayDee]

Maybe it's like anything - we don't recognize it or understand it until it happens to us. My therapist knows about it. She doesn't exactly call it MLC, this is how she describes it 'H has spent all his life pushing down his trauma/shame/shadow that it is now seeping out of the sides and bubbling up over the lid'. She sees it regularly in her therapy room. She nodded along when I mentioned the rising up of the shadow, but she frames things around trauma and what has to be buried to survive. How people with childhood trauma have to adapt early on at the expense of their own needs. So I think all of this is actually known in therapeutic and medical spheres. When we don't deal with our past trauma, it will likely start spurting out all over the place. Especially when we haven't the coping skills acquired through stable parenting. This is also a 'known' - part of our maturation can get stunted at the point of trauma. AND we can regress to the point of trauma under extreme duress.

IMO, the timing of it is because at midlife, we experience a lot of pressure - aging parents, children going to college, empty nest etc - add to that our middle years can be our most successful if we have a career. So, we are busy, and under pressure.  Maybe yes, the reevaluation, the aging angst, but personally I think that is more part of a transition.

You are right, we are all right here on the forum, this is some sort of major psychological event. The duration of the crisis, I suggest, is due to how the person who experiences it manages it. Or not, as is often the case. It is a truism, that if we do the same things we get the same results. So, if someone is avoidant (which most MLCs are) then this is what they do - avoid. Only that is what led them to the crisis in the first place. Thus we can see why it takes time. How many times do we need to get hit on the head by a coconut before we move from under the tree that is giving us shade (this is a weird analogy, but it kinda works). Some people seem to add layer upon layer to their crisis. The damage keeps on growing and I guess that's why the refrain 'MLC gets worse before it gets better'.  It gets better when they/we don't want to get hit with the coconut anymore.

I've come to understand my H's crisis through the lens of bipolar. It really maps onto that condition at the moment. The high of replay activity, followed by the low when it all folds. It is somewhat helpful, but ultimately, giving something a name only takes us so far. I think we can all agree, some people fracture under the weight of life, and that time is often midlife.

[WHY]

I watched the finding never land documentary.   Both the guys that were abused went into meltdowns when their kids were born.  That was their trigger.

The one wife was saying her H was going out, partying, drinking, leaving his family.  She didn’t mention affair but given what I know, I’m pretty sure that was part of it.  He was high energy. 

The other guy withdrew.  Depression.  Low energy.  Both had an identity crisis. 


But they managed to work through their trauma and kept their marriages in tact.   It’s just made so much sense to me what they experienced.

You have this blueprint for life.  One day you wake up after a trigger and that blueprint no longer works.   You detonate.  And destroy everything around you.  LBS actually go through some seriously brutal trauma being the collateral damage.  Without ANY warning.    Not to mention the kids suffering. 

I hate MLC…

[Reinventing]

Evas was the name someone was looking for I think.

Yes, that me, KayDee. Thanks.

[FrenchHusband]

100% agree.  The LBS is the one that chooses. 

It does seem though that the vast majority of MLCers do want to reconnect and possibly return.  I don’t have data.  Just a gut feel.  From the 3 people I’ve spoken to live and from Hearts Blessing and teachings here. 

But it seems like reconciliation rates are extremely low, 5-15% maybe, who knows. 

So if 90% of MLCers want to return but 10% reconcile.  That difference lies in the hands of the LBS.  And it’s clear that LBS in general decide to move on.

I have not the return wanting rates, I have searched in the stories the expressed regrets, and I have found them in 24 stories out of 50. So in my opinion it is at least 50%, likely more. But the will of return is just the first step of a very difficult path : reconciliation is for the brave, tell the vets.

There are just so many things we don’t know about MLC.  I mean to me it’s a massive psychological event.   The MLC has psychosis and does not view the world around them for what it is.  They live in their own alternative version of reality.  That sounds like mental illness to me.

But my biggest question is why does it take so long to work through?  I mean sometimes 10 years???  That’s half the time a lot of us have been married.  I mean that’s crazy.   That not a “phase someone grows out of”.  That’s a rewiring of your entire brain and way of thinking overnight.   Why we don’t understand more about this event is beyond me

Regarding your question, I can only answer with the best analogy I can find : why does teenage crisis last so long ? And which parent does celebrate each year the teenager's BD (I hate you ! ) birthday ? Which parent defines himself in regard to the BD of their children or calls himself a Left Behind Parent ? Which parent tries to figure out how many years remain in the teenage crisis, expect excuses or journal the crisis, the reconnection & the reconciliation ?

What I want to say, and I include myself in the WE, is that we LBS ( ) are sometimes too much focussed on our spouses and on the MLC. Knowledge is useful but too much focus is counter productive imho. I hope that one day the MLC will be more recognized and well-known, so that the LBS and people under MLC can live this period more peacefully, with less damages, as it is the case for most of the teenage crisis.

[Songanddance]

What I want to say, and I include myself in the WE, is that we LBS ( ) are sometimes too much focussed on our spouses and on the MLC. Knowledge is useful but too much focus is counter productive imho. I

And that's why I thoroughly recommend reading Stayed's threads.  She reconciled way back in 2006 but her information is really helpful in getting the LBS off the MLCer and onto living a life regardless. 

[MadLuv]

Shopgirl is also a reconciled LBS

[Nas]

I really remember the very early days when I so wanted these stats. I also really remember the day that I realized that nothing that happens in anyone else’s life can predict what will happen in mine. It didn’t matter if someone told me that 90% of people reconcile, I had to look at the facts and reality of my own situation, those were the only “knowns” that mattered. That is very hard to do early on, but extremely necessary to do in the LBS journey.

[MadLuv]

I totally agree NAS. This is a unique to each persons crisis and  each persons strength and weaknesses on how they are able to handle their crisis. Not only that, but due to no fault of the LBS  they have endured and reacted in the marriage to neglect before they recognized why and that also changes the dynamics of how the MLCer see’s the relationship. Not just to justify their behavior, but it was a reality.

 Without both being able to talk through how this all unfolded and how it impacted not only the relationship, but the changes in each person then in my opinion it is very difficult to come back from.  Since the crisis is driven by insecurity and lack of core self ( IMHO)  the MLCer that can handle deep  inner evaluation is rare and that is why the reconciliations are so rare. Not just because the LBS decides.  I also think what age it occurs and what are the family dynamics. Those LBS with children may hang in longer.

Just so many individual dynamics, but  one thing my XH said that I totally agree with is “You will never look at me the same again” I disagreed with that in the beginning. I  was so willing to do anything to keep the family together, but with time I actually agree with him.

[mcm64d]

I sometimes wonder if the have a site where they compare LBS stories and comfort one another. Far fetched kind of alternative universe type of thinking.....

I am trying a new experiment called the vanishing LBS. She has avenues to get a hold of me but I have blocked her number for over a week now and it feels terrific. What's the stats on whether the vanishing LBSer reconciles with the MLCer? I have no idea. Would it be comforting for my MLC xw to know such a statistic?

I wish everyone looking for solace in statistics only the best. Well, I wish everyone on here only the best. IMHO, and it is just an opinion from someone in the beginning of this disaster we are all going or have gone through, is that if you want back into your spouse's life and rebuild that relationship and the statistics are against you, then swim upstream. Be the outlier!! For as long as you are willing to try and stand and do your best, no statistic can ever define you or predict your outcome!!

Be well.

[UrsaMajor]

I sometimes wonder if the have a site where they compare LBS stories and comfort one another. Far fetched kind of alternative universe type of thinking.....

Yeah there is... It is called "Hero's Spouse." 

I am trying a new experiment called the vanishing LBS. She has avenues to get a hold of me but I have blocked her number for over a week now and it feels terrific.

That is called "going dark" here. You have made it difficult for her to contact you and she has, in turn, chosen not to exert any additional effort.  The question is whether you would answer her if she did make the effort to contact you. That is the difference between "dark" and NC.

What's the stats on whether the vanishing LBSer reconciles with the MLCer? I have no idea. Would it be comforting for my MLC xw to know such a statistic?

Answer to both questions - does it really matter? Does it really matter in YOUR personal situation if there are stats that say you are predestined for success or failure? That there is some crystal ball or Harry Potter Sorting Hat that is going to squeak out "You will reconcile" or "You are doomed to the 9 pits of LBS'dom for Eternity?" As for the Mid-Lifer, it makes NO different to them what the stats are because they are way too busy running from themselves and everything/everyone else to pay much attention and, even if they did, they'd just do things to spite the stats anyway to prove that they are "different" and "better."

I wish everyone looking for solace in statistics only the best. Well, I wish everyone on here only the best. IMHO, and it is just an opinion from someone in the beginning of this disaster we are all going or have gone through, is that if you want back into your spouse's life and rebuild that relationship and the statistics are against you, then swim upstream. Be the outlier!! For as long as you are willing to try and stand and do your best, no statistic can ever define you or predict your outcome!!

Just make darn sure that you are not swimming into the business end of a hydroelectric turbine instead of up a fish ladder....

[FrenchHusband]

I wish everyone looking for solace in statistics only the best. Well, I wish everyone on here only the best. IMHO, and it is just an opinion from someone in the beginning of this disaster we are all going or have gone through, is that if you want back into your spouse's life and rebuild that relationship and the statistics are against you, then swim upstream. Be the outlier!! For as long as you are willing to try and stand and do your best, no statistic can ever define you or predict your outcome!!

Just make darn sure that you are not swimming into the business end of a hydroelectric turbine instead of up a fish ladder....

Well, the real statistics that matter IMO is "how many LBS will be better, grow and thrive ?" I personaly, don't want back into my current W's life. I am swimming where I choose to swim. I still let the door open for her to come back, if she faces her inner demons, if she wants genuinely to work on our marriage and if she shows constant efforts to rebuild what is broken. In the future I might close this door, by example if there are big damages in the next months/years.

[mcm64d]

I am trying a new experiment called the vanishing LBS. She has avenues to get a hold of me but I have blocked her number for over a week now and it feels terrific.

That is called "going dark" here. You have made it difficult for her to contact you and she has, in turn, chosen not to exert any additional effort.  The question is whether you would answer her if she did make the effort to contact you. That is the difference between "dark" and NC.

Thank you for this. It made me think.....

If it is in regards to legal issues or some kind of life or death situation for her, yes I'd respond.

Anything else- huge doubts that I would respond at this rate. I think the only other reason I would respond is if she said how blowing up our lives was a mistake or some kind of breakdown and that she is getting the help she needs. Or something similar. Then I would be fully supportive, from a distance.

As far as the rest of that post UM- if anyone chooses to fight for their relationship and believe in the greater good of the human race, then by all means go for it, regardless of the statistics or odds.

They say that 10-15% of divorced couple reconcile. "They say" is a dangerous statement, but let's assume it correct. 10 out of 100, is not that bad. And considering the number of divorces, there should be hope if that is what anyone wants.

I am choosing to move forward. If I eventually remarry so be it. Should I eventually reconcile, so be it. As I am finding out throughout this journey, I am in control of very little. So okay, today I think about today and how I want to be. Tomorrow never knows.

[UrsaMajor]

As far as the rest of that post UM- if anyone chooses to fight for their relationship and believe in the greater good of the human race, then by all means go for it, regardless of the statistics or odds.

They say that 10-15% of divorced couple reconcile. "They say" is a dangerous statement, but let's assume it correct. 10 out of 100, is not that bad. And considering the number of divorces, there should be hope if that is what anyone wants.

Hope is one thing, expectations are something else.... Fighting for something when you are like a one-legged person in a butt-kicking contest is neither productive nor is it healthy. Quietly standing and being a lighthouse for the wayward spouse while continuing on one's own journey of growth and healing is a different story. It depends on where one is putting their focus. While the MLC'er is in the throes of their crisis, the LBS fighting to save the marriage is like going outside, standing in the path of a tornado, yelling at it and waving your arms and expecting the tornado to change it's course.

As for the "they say" the saying I was taught long ago is "there are liars, there are darn liars, and then there are statisticians."  And finally there is the "let's assume." That is translated as "Let's ASS-U-ME." With a Mid-Lifer, one can not assume ANYTHING because any assumption is based on previous experience with said Mid-Lifer and that person has been replaced by the body snatcher pod in the garden shed or the Bug in the Edgar suit. The danger with such statistics is that they are too general - 10% of all divorces? Of MLC divorces? Infidelity included? Divorces brought about by addictions?  We can just as well toss a pot of cooked spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

By all means, if one wants to stand and hold out hope that their Mid-Lifer will someday get their head out of their .... fog.... then more power to them but NOT at the cost of their own happiness and health.....

[Dragonfly33]

This is just so true UM. When I was new to all this MLC bull$h!te, all I was looking for were statistics of reconciliation and MLCers coming out of the fog remorseful wanting to get back with the LbSer. It’s been almost 5 years for me through this MLC $h!te show. And my xh is still going stronger with his very young OW4. No traces of remorse or regret or whatever it is a normal human being should feel or do after bulldozing his marriage and his spouse’s life. As hard as it is to accept, I don’t hope anymore. Hoping for me is like hoping the crow will become white someday. I’ve accepted that that person is gone and I have to continue this life without that man. If one keeps on looking at statistics it will just hinder you from moving forward. I was also focused on finding out how many MLCers eventually split up with the Ow or were having a messy life. But some of them did have a good life after divorce. It’s pointless to continue to follow their lives and it’s a waste of time. I still struggle at this and honestly I hope my xh would have a $h!tety life now but he doesn’t. He is happy with his OW after 2 years of being together. So yeah, that is also a hard truth to accept. All I can do now is keep on taking that hard step forward until the memory of my xh becomes just a small dot in the far distance.

[KayDee]

He is happy with his OW after 2 years of being together. So yeah, that is also a hard truth to accept. All I can do now is keep on taking that hard step forward until the memory of my xh becomes just a small dot in the far distance.

Ah but maybe not DF - wasn't he the guy who sent you the woe-is-me card not so long ago  ? I guess it's extremely hard to know. Everyone thought my H was happy and then he fractured. Probably the same for most people's MLC spouses. But, I guess the point is to move beyond wanting them (secretly or otherwise) to be hit by the No 46 Karma Bus, and not be affected by things either way. That's maybe the final string cut.

BTW, I thought MCM was being satirical. I liked the reversal of roles he offered. It did make me reflect. We do spend a lot of time on the crisis subject. It can help us to heal to understand, I think, but accepting a state of not knowing needs to be factored in. Especially as the person in crisis often doesn't know themselves.

[WHY]

Going dark, NC.  Whatever you want to call it.  I just look forward to a time where I dont have to think or deal with MLC on a daily basis with an at home wallower. 

And isnt it more like 5% get remarried?  I thought this came up earlier?  The odds are terrible. 

I do love the standing in the way of a tornado and yelling at it to change it's path analogy.  Definitely gonna remember that one.  Spot on.

For me personally, stats do matter.  It has zero effect on my expectations because of the caveat that everyone is different.  You cannot predict the end result.  BUT, it does affect the level of hope that one has.  And do you keep standing, taking daily artillery, with the hope that the war will end at some point and "then see what happens".  Or rather just wave the white flag (which is D), move on, and also then also "see what happens". 

If the see what happens is essentially the same, then why take the daily mental torture and artillery?

When this thing started for me, a couple of vets told me that most folks here wished they would have D'ed upfront and that the "marriage" stand was not worth it.  They were not wrong IMO.... (in general). 

To me the stand has evolved into the process where the LBS survives the nukes that are initially dropped, stops the bleeding, leaves the ER for rehab, starts to heal the wounds that have been inflicted, gets stronger, then adapts to their new way of life, and learns to thrive so they are ready to take the next step into their new life.

[One day at a time]

+1 on the years at this and xH showing 0 sign of remorse or wanting to come back.

BD 1 was nearly 7 years ago and he left nearly 6 years ago.. He's now married to OW and supposedly happy. I left him to go and live the MLC life from very early on so I did not "delay" or "interfere" with the process. Because of the laws here, we remained married for over 4 years after the marriage was over... He doesn't know I moved on so you could say he assumes he can at least apologize for what he's done, he hasn't....

I think hanging on to statistics is really not good for the LBS. My advice would be to live your life and see where it takes you. You can always reconsider if/when the opportunity comes up for reconnection.

[Dragonfly33]

KD honestly I’m amazed at your memory, while my memory is like that of a fish. Can’t even remember what my friend told ne two days ago. 🙈 I take it as a compliment that you remembered what I wrote here. He did send me that lousy card but who knows like you said. It could be just an ego boost for him to check if Im still under his spell. Who knows like you said. But for now both of them seem like living their best lives. So like I said, hoping can be very detrimental to ones healing or moving forward. There were moments where I did hope that my xh would come out of it even though I am not even sure if I am still willing to accept him. But what Im trying to say is based on my experience the hope was not helping me instead it hurt me even more. Just my two cents.

[WHY]

Side note: so 660 active users, the handful of recon stories that folks have mentioned here.

Does anyone recall an at home wallower story that lead to reconnection/reconciliation?  I'd love to read it for my own interest.

Thanks.

[FrenchHusband]

Hi Why,

there you have a few stories of LBS with at home MLCers that lead to reconciliation. I did not record the energy-type status in my database so you have to check the ones fitting with your category.
BBHelp   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8080.0
Acorn   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9504.0;all
StormChaser   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6734
neversaynever   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10600.0;all#lastPost
Foreverstander   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3953.0
Broken hearted 1971   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10268.0;all#lastPost
elray   https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4523.msg296246#msg296246 (no thread, many messages)

with the few datas I have on male LBS stories, it looks like the odds are a bit better with at home wife, but these datas are not enough to be significant.

[mcm64d]

All I was trying to really say is what is the difference what the statistics say.... if a woman or man wants to reconcile then no statistic in the world should stop them trying. I want to believe in the human spirit. The good that is all around us. I will support anyone who wants to try to either save their marriage or reconcile with their ex spouse. You have to accept the consequences either way it turns out beforehand. If you can do that, then go for it if you feel that is best for you!!

And KayDee.....just using a little sociological imagination. I thought in my case I handled things the nest I could but must have driven her mad with some things. (And good for me!!  - Just kidding)

[beyondblessed]

Well, the real statistics that matter IMO is "how many LBS will be better, grow and thrive ?" I personaly, don't want back into my current W's life. I am swimming where I choose to swim. I still let the door open for her to come back, if she faces her inner demons, if she wants genuinely to work on our marriage and if she shows constant efforts to rebuild what is broken. In the future I might close this door, by example if there are big damages in the next months/years.

FH,  then you are in luck, because there are many of us long LBS who are thriving and making the absolute best of the rest of our lives, without reconnecting or reconciling.  Now, that's a statistic worth celebrating.

*Fixed quote brackets - FW

[WHY]

Thank you FH.  I will read through these.  I know BB’s and his was a happy ending. 

[UrsaMajor]

Take a look at Navigator's Threads as well....

He reconciled and had a whacked out father (IIRC) to deal with as well....

[FaithWalker]

Well I haven't had a happy ending because my life hasn't ended yet, but I am happy.   

There are so many factors in MLC so we will probably never know the outcomes of many, many stories:
-MLCers may try to come back to find that the LBS has moved on and remarried.

-MLCers have remarried and come out of the crisis, but don't want to hurt the person that they've married now, so they never try to reconnect or take time to truly apologize to the LBS.

-Sometimes the MLCers reconnection/reconciliation is a friendship. 

-MLCers have minimized the damage they've done in their own minds and see the LBSer living life to the fullest and don't see a reason to re-hash the whole thing or to apologize or show remorse. Doesn't mean they might not be remorseful, but not everyone who has remorse seeks out the other to fix it.  I see it often in 12 step programs, but people don't always do a 12 step program, right? 

-Sometimes MLCers die before a reconciliation happens, or an LBS dies.

[KayDee]

-MLCers have minimized the damage they've done in their own minds and see the LBSer living life to the fullest and don't see a reason to re-hash the whole thing or to apologize or show remorse. Doesn't mean they might not be remorseful, but not everyone who has remorse seeks out the other to fix it.  I see it often in 12 step programs, but people don't always do a 12 step program, right? 

IMO, if this is the case, they are, if not in full blown crisis, not much further along than when they fractured, because minimizing can be another form of avoiding what is not bearable. I suspect, sadly, that this is more common than I wish to believe. But I guess it is part of the make-up of a person that goes into this sort of crisis. To face one's damage and try to make some sort of amends, even if that isn't about the restoration of the marriage, that takes strength. It takes a person who can handle someone else's pain and take responsibility. Hard enough for people without shame and poor sense of self, so, well - I think that is why the crisis person doing a kind of 12 step is rare. Not impossible, of course,

Another option about why people don't reconcile. Off the top of my head - the so-called LBS 'vanishes' - aka pulls down on the shutters and says 'no more'. I know of one of these in RL.

[Trustandlove]

I find my self agreeing with KayDee here; I see this in my former H.  From what I can tell he is completely minimising the damage, to the point that a mutual friend said that he acts like he hasn't done anything wrong at all. 

I have no more contact with him, but from what I hear nothing has changed on his part, still saying "woe is me", and from what I can tell, still seeking the next thing that is going to make him happy.  And this is years and years later.  It makes me so sad.

[Treasur]

In the spirit of being fair-minded, I think a lot of MLCers run and therefore are not around to see the relentless damage they leave behind. Or to understand our grief, or our children’s bewilderment, bc their own mindset at the time was so different. They disassociate, compartmentalise and absent themselves. So, yes, they show little sign of getting it bc they weren’t there to see us all stumble through the rubble of it. I suppose some then encounter their own life rubble down the line that may give them some empathy, idk. But years later quite a few seem rather surprised even years later about some of the entirely predictable effects on their original family or how others see them.

Tbh I find it quite tricky even now years later to describe it as an experience in words that might make sense to other people in RL who did not see me then and who have not experienced something similar in their own life. It was truly shatteringly awful. One of the great blessings of this group it seems to me is that people here really do get it.

[WHY]

Tbh I find it quite tricky even now years later to describe it as an experience in words that might make sense to other people in RL who did not see me then and who have not experienced something similar in their own life. It was truly shatteringly awful. One of the great blessings of this group it seems to me is that people here really do get it.

This hits home more than you know.  No one I know truly understands what I'm going through, not even my parents.  HS has saved my life. 

Frankly I dont think I will ever be able to completely explain to myself what happened here.  It's just too crazy to fully wrap my mind around.  Like some sort of paranormal experience. 

[WHY]

-MLCers have minimized the damage they've done in their own minds and see the LBSer living life to the fullest and don't see a reason to re-hash the whole thing or to apologize or show remorse. Doesn't mean they might not be remorseful, but not everyone who has remorse seeks out the other to fix it.  I see it often in 12 step programs, but people don't always do a 12 step program, right? 

IMO, if this is the case, they are, if not in full blown crisis, not much further along than when they fractured, because minimizing can be another form of avoiding what is not bearable. I suspect, sadly, that this is more common than I wish to believe. But I guess it is part of the make-up of a person that goes into this sort of crisis. To face one's damage and try to make some sort of amends, even if that isn't about the restoration of the marriage, that takes strength. It takes a person who can handle someone else's pain and take responsibility. Hard enough for people without shame and poor sense of self, so, well - I think that is why the crisis person doing a kind of 12 step is rare. Not impossible, of course,

Another option about why people don't reconcile. Off the top of my head - the so-called LBS 'vanishes' - aka pulls down on the shutters and says 'no more'. I know of one of these in RL.

You're so right on this Kay.  Because my gut feeling is that the vast majority of MLCers awaken to the fact that they wrecked their lives, and the want their old life back, and feel bad about what happened.

However, if reconciliation rates are so low, that tells me that a lot of them probably dont do the work or the 12 step program.....

And the ones that do, then it's still up to the LBS.  But 2 out of 3 of the MLCers I know did not do the work.  The 3rd did and remarried.

[marvin4242]

I am not at all being negative or pessimistic, but I am not sure where this concept that "MLCers will simply wake up" started and what supports this. I completely understand that initially almost all of us have this hope. Everything is so unreal that we can not believe this is real, that this is what the new truth of our loved ones is. So we construct a "transient" idea to what is happening. Kind of like an illness that will pass, a cold as if it were.But it's nothing like that. This is a major major crises, in a lot of ways a death or collapse of a certain version of our loved ones. I know for at least the first six months every time I interacted with my wife, no matter how much I "realized" what was happening, it was a complete shock.

So looking for odds or thinking they are good is a lot like going to the worst cases of an emergency room and hoping that there is a very hig rate of recovery. No matter how much we wish it to be it is not likely. There are so many examples of people who do keep posting in these forums who state how their loved ones are very badly off 5 years, 10 years or even longer. My own sample of one is that my wife has settled into a new "normal" which is not good and I do not think she may ever really change again. With very few exceptions even here that is the norm.

So I fear there is a lot of selection bias going on here. We grab onto the few exceptions and close our eyes to the rest. Additionally we have a self selecting sample here. We are the more engaged, more committed and maybe even the "better" cases for all we know. I would guess for every poster there are hundreds if not thousands of people who go through this and never post or see a forum like this. What about that statistic?

None of this is against any idea presented here, it is more about deciding with eyes wide open, clarity and purpose. And with a great deal of self care. If we keep pretending that the blades in the blender are not there, the blender is not on, then sticking out hand in again and again will simply not go well for us.

My advice is choose what works best for you, adjust as you go (don't fixate) and always do it with a great deal of internal clarity and honesty. I will keep saying: reality is what it is, not we wish it to be.

[Ready2Transform]

I am not at all being negative or pessimistic, but I am not sure where this concept that "MLCers will simply wake up" started and what supports this. I completely understand that initially almost all of us have this hope. Everything is so unreal that we can not believe this is real, that this is what the new truth of our loved ones is. So we construct a "transient" idea to what is happening. Kind of like an illness that will pass, a cold as if it were. But it's nothing like that. This is a major major crises, in a lot of ways a death or collapse of a certain version of our loved ones.

THIS THIS a thousand times THIS. And it's not pessimism, it's realism. It takes strong people to go deep and face the sometimes harsh truths of this stuff. And we are those people. You don't take on standing, or at the very least, trying to grasp a deeper understanding of what is happening to your spouse through research and fellowship, because you are a weak person. It's the road less traveled. We all have grace, intelligence, and the ability to forge through this grief.

My BD was in 2011, with crazy years leading up to it. If anyone was going to come through this, it would be my H, I thought. We were each others' lifelong best friends. We were progressive, self-actualizing, personal development junkies. He also had a team in a therapist, a psychiatrist, and MD who were trying to guide him in the early stages. How could he not at some point wake up from this nightmare? How could he, who had been the outlier, end up like the rest of his family who had seemingly lost the plot at some point?

But here we are. Almost 13 years, and he's still riding the crazy train. Married to the OW for a long time, but the affair itself started years before BD, so the math puts their relationship longer than our actual marriage was. I'd be better off trying to find a golden ticket in a chocolate bar than to believe some "real xH" is floating around in his skin, waiting to pop back out and return us to the love of our youth. And thankfully, I stopped riding that bus a long time ago. It's given me my SELF back. That's really the biggest thing all of us have to lose in this.

But when I was at the beginning of this, him coming back and working this through was the only option I could see as possible. As I healed from this experience, I returned to a place where I saw life was always a series of tributaries we could take. Choices may not be infinite at all times, but they're never so polarized. Not for us. Not for the MLCers, either. Whether in their right minds or not, there are always many roads on the map of life, and what we've seen as more people have come here through the years is that both LBS and MLCer tend to explore those without standing in one place indefinitely. It almost sounds like judgment that an LBS might decide to consider something other than the condition of their spouse coming back, just as much as I remember feeling judged for initially standing by those around me. But we are all just doing what makes us feel better after being in such a low spot, no matter what side of the spectrum of standing we're on.

I think the "MLCers will simply wake up" is easy to say when you're one of the few who had one who did. In fairness, no one has ever made us any guarantees on this. Not this site, not any other site. The writings of these LBSs have soothed me many times in the early days when I was on the ledge of despair, and that has value. And I don't think it's a lie (for them) because they are telling the story as it unfolded from their experience. But as we are seeing more and more, "reconnection" can sometimes mean friendship (toomanytears' situation comes to mind) and an MLCer doing the work doesn't always pave a clear path back to full marital reconciliation (barbiedoll's situation comes to mind). So broadening our idea of "waking up" should conjure the question of what we could live with if it doesn't mean a restored marriage. COULD you be friends with your MLCer? What would that look like? Is that a soothing thought or does it spark fear of rejection, fear of wasting time, or being wrong? Do we just want to be right? What would letting go of an outcome altogether look like? From that place, could you make more decisions, see more tributaries, feel like yourself again? Would that return be perhaps even better than any other? Just throwing those out there.

[Nas]

I'd be better off trying to find a golden ticket in a chocolate bar than to believe some "real xH" is floating around in his skin, waiting to pop back out and return us to the love of our youth.

I’m not sure I ever knew my “real” H. He was always faking in various ways.  He took on traits of those around him who possessed qualities he admired, and even tried to absorb aspects of me. In the end it was the things about me that attracted him that he most wanted to destroy. One of the hardest truths to admit was that the man who emerged fully after BD had been in there all along. It was shocking in its suddenness, but it wasn’t an alien abduction. It was more like a full assembly of previously disjointed parts.

I don’t think about love the same way I did when I was young. The psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan called love “essential duplicity” (and I once spent a whole semester trying to write a short story with that title) - a selfish act, we give love to get something in return, or for the object of our “love” to mirror us back to ourselves as we want to be seen. Paraphrasing: “Love is giving what you don’t have to someone who doesn’t want it.“ Another loose translation of it is “Loving is giving something you don’t have to someone who doesn’t exist in order to get something you need.” I was trying to offer myself up to a projection that didn’t exist in the hopes he would provide me with what was missing in myself. I didn’t do it consciously and it didn’t mean I didn’t “love”him. I was young and misguided. Perhaps in a different situation (with someone who wasn’t an abusive narcissist) we could’ve grown together and that young misguided love could have evolved. I can’t speak for my former husband. But I own my part - not proudly, but I own it. I can’t imagine him owning his.

Can you honestly imagine your MLCer digging down to the core, facing any traumas and admitting their faults and failures with brutal honesty? If you truly can, congrats, there may be a chance of them doing the work at some point. Because that’s ”the work.” It’s not surface level speculation. And it’s not magic. It will never just happen.

[Atari25]

I am not at all being negative or pessimistic, but I am not sure where this concept that "MLCers will simply wake up" started and what supports this. I completely understand that initially almost all of us have this hope. Everything is so unreal that we can not believe this is real, that this is what the new truth of our loved ones is. So we construct a "transient" idea to what is happening. Kind of like an illness that will pass, a cold as if it were.But it's nothing like that. This is a major major crises, in a lot of ways a death or collapse of a certain version of our loved ones. I know for at least the first six months every time I interacted with my wife, no matter how much I "realized" what was happening, it was a complete shock.

I still do believe what is happening to my wife while also completely shocking, is also somewhat transient. The big question is time. I don't believe for a second she will be the same person after she goes through her MLC but I do think she will get through it. I see some mild signs. Maybe that's because she is out of the house now, I could be wrong. My therapist feels that the time away from the house was probably best for her to defuse what was building for months in her head. Of course she is just going on what I have said to her.

Can you honestly imagine your MLCer digging down to the core, facing any traumas and admitting their faults and failures with brutal honesty? If you truly can, congrats, there may be a chance of them doing the work at some point. Because that’s ”the work.” It’s not surface level speculation. And it’s not magic. It will never just happen.

This is what I worry about. The childhood trauma and admitting fault of any kind. My wife has shown unwillingness to admit or face any of this. She has agreed to get therapy, we shall see. I want to be optimistic for my own sanity.  Maybe I am kidding myself to prevent anymore heartbreak.

[WHY]

That was one of my W's biggest weaknesses before.  Admitting when she was wrong.  Talking about it but never taking responsibility (meaningless stuff thinking about it now in the big scheme of things).

But this personality trait does not give me much hope for self awareness and accountability.  I'm hoping she'll be able to draw strength from the kids to do the work. 

[Atari25]

That was one of my W's biggest weaknesses before.  Admitting when she was wrong.  Talking about it but never taking responsibility (meaningless stuff thinking about it now in the big scheme of things).
But this personality trait does not give me much hope for self awareness and accountability.  I'm hoping she'll be able to draw strength from the kids to do the work.

The personality trait is a major flaw and clearly a contributor to many of our situations. My daughter is putting pressure on W to get moving with therapy. I think without her nagging she would not have agreed to go. I have told my daughter (23) that she is likely the only person that can help her mom get help and she is ok with that and understands.

[Nas]

Nothing is a foregone conclusion and there's never anything wrong with having hope. It takes a while to let go of wanting to predict or control the outcome, but the realization that we can do neither of those things is very freeing. That's why I focus more on my own experience and learning, how I ended up in my marriage, how I showed up in my marriage, and how I would want to show up in a relationship now with the benefit of growth and insight. That's all that's within my control.

[Treasur]

That’s perhaps quite a big burden to inadvertently give to your daughter. Would you say the same for instance if your wife was an addict or alcoholic? Bc tbh ‘help’ - whatever that process looks like - is a very horse to water principle, isn’t it? And it really isn’t your daughter’s responsibility if the horse drinks or doesn’t. We humans, MLC or not, tend to reach out for help when we find our current situation sufficiently unbearable and the kind of help we look for and when is often a function of how we see the ‘problem’.  And we often push back hard on those who try to push us before we are ready, willing and feel able.

Undetstandable that she, and you, might want to encourage your wife and it may even be a pattern in your family of wife needing help and others being the helpers, idk, although it wouldn’t be unusual here bc damaged folks can create some odd dynamics over time. And we often can hear things from folks who have no skin in the game that we will not hear even from those who love us.

Imho I’d also be encouraging your daughter to not try to own things that don’t belong to her and that are simply beyond her control. To speak her mind, to have respect and compassion, to have some decent and honest boundaries but not get sucked into carrying someone else’s monkeys, no matter how she feels about her mother or how reasonable her concerns are. Or yours. That’s a pretty good life lesson writ large usually, but maybe just as hard and important for LBS kids as LBS?
Jmo.

[WHY]

That’s perhaps quite a big burden to inadvertently give to your daughter. Would you say the same for instance if your wife was an addict or alcoholic? Bc tbh ‘help’ - whatever that process looks like - is a very horse to water principle, isn’t it? And it really isn’t your daughter’s responsibility if the horse drinks or doesn’t. We humans, MLC or not, tend to reach out for help when we find our current situation sufficiently unbearable and the kind of help we look for and when is often a function of how we see the ‘problem’.  And we often push back hard on those who try to push us before we are ready, willing and feel able.

Undetstandable that she, and you, might want to encourage your wife and it may even be a pattern in your family of wife needing help and others being the helpers, idk, although it wouldn’t be unusual here bc damaged folks can create some odd dynamics over time.

But imho I’d also be encouraging your daughter to not try to own things that don’t belong to her and that are simply beyond her control. That’s a pretty good life lesson writ large usually, but maybe just as hard and important for LBS kids as LBS?

This is a good point.  Because what if your W doesnt "recover" and your daughter will blame herself.  She should not carry that responsibility.  The responsibility lies with your W.

[Atari25]

That’s perhaps quite a big burden to inadvertently give to your daughter. Would you say the same for instance if your wife was an addict or alcoholic? Bc tbh ‘help’ - whatever that process looks like - is a very horse to water principle, isn’t it? And it really isn’t your daughter’s responsibility if the horse drinks or doesn’t. We humans, MLC or not, tend to reach out for help when we find our current situation sufficiently unbearable and the kind of help we look for and when is often a function of how we see the ‘problem’.  And we often push back hard on those who try to push us before we are ready, willing and feel able.

Undetstandable that she, and you, might want to encourage your wife and it may even be a pattern in your family of wife needing help and others being the helpers, idk, although it wouldn’t be unusual here bc damaged folks can create some odd dynamics over time. And we often can hear things from folks who have no skin in the game that we will not hear even from those who love us.

Imho I’d also be encouraging your daughter to not try to own things that don’t belong to her and that are simply beyond her control. To speak her mind, to have respect and compassion, to have some decent and honest boundaries but not get sucked into carrying someone else’s monkeys, no matter how she feels about her mother or how reasonable her concerns are. Or yours. That’s a pretty good life lesson writ large usually, but maybe just as hard and important for LBS kids as LBS?
Jmo.

My daughter has done most of what she has on her own. She has experienced my wife's behavior and withdrawal from her life also first hand. She is very upset with her mother and has expressed those opinions to her directly. It's very different when you have an adult child living with you and experiencing the full brunt of MLC directly. She is not pushing her mom for me, she is doing it for us all and to try and help her mother get through MLC.

Don't get me wrong, my daughter is incredibly compassionate but my wife's behavior over the past 8 months has been unacceptable to all of us. We (my daughter, my son and I) have been openly talking about her behavior since the summer. I don't expect or ask my daughter to do anything other than to understand what has and is happening. I have tried to be as neutral as possible. I don't know what else to do but she has been my rock and we are closer than ever so if nothing else, that is my one blessing from the craziness.

[Biscuit]

Back to the original thread subject. I think it's important for us all to see that, despite the staggering similarities we all see in our spouses going into the crisis, that at some point those end.
The next stages seem to play out as differently as individuals themselves. Every one of them is taken down by different problems and they are all different people. So we see some that come through fairly similar to how they went in (sometimes with some personal development and better awareness of what took them don the rabbit hole in the first place) at one end of the spectrum. And at the other end we have people who, 15 years on, have not changed much at all from the early part of their crisis.
The problem for the LBS, is that no one can predict which part of the spectrum our loved ones will end up in.

[WHY]

Good point.

Something else I struggle with is this constant talk of depression.  I have this idea of depression in my head.  It’s not exactly what I’m seeing in my MLCer.

I wish there was a better way to describe what they’re going through. 

[Atari25]

Good point.

Something else I struggle with is this constant talk of depression.  I have this idea of depression in my head.  It’s not exactly what I’m seeing in my MLCer. I wish there was a better way to describe what they’re going through.

I think there is depression in all of them, it's just masked and you don't see it.

My wife is posting pictures of her wonderful life all the time and when I text or talk to her she sounds fine. When she is with my daughter W is up and down constantly and crying about missing the dog or "screwing up" or whatever.

Hiding depression to me seems to be part of the MLC experience.

[WHY]

I have an at home MLCer.  2 years…… Believe me I understand the mask.  It’s night and day.  At a BBQ she’s laughing and socializing and the world is wonderful.  At home she’s on the couch with a 1000 yard stare at the TV.  I can see things are not right. 

But depression as people in the general population see it?  Not exactly.  It seems to me like it’s a form of psychosis.  Check the definition.  Like the way she sees the world does not reflect reality.  This fog that has control.   I’m not sure it’s depression driving the ship.  It’s more like this unexplained fog.   

I mean.  Look at the definition and causes of “delusional disorder”. This sounds pretty darn spot on when I’m dealing with a fantasy alienator situation.   

Doesn’t this disorder seem closer to MLC vs depression??

“Delusional disorder is a rare condition and difficult to study; as a result, it is not widely discussed in clinical research. While the cause is unknown, some studies suggest that people develop delusions as a way to manage extreme stress or deal with a history of trauma.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/delusional-disorder?amp

OMFG doesn’t this explain so much?

Delusional jealousy: A person may incorrectly think that their partner is being unfaithful.

Romantic: The individual may believe that another person is in love with them.

Grandiose: A person may have inflated self-worth and power and believe that they have great talent or knowledge.

Persecutory: This occurs when the person believes that others are attacking or conspiring against them or being obstructive to prevent them from attaining long-term goals.

Somatic: The individual may believe that their appearance or bodily functions are grossly abnormal.

Thought broadcasting: This type refers to the idea that others are perceiving the person’s thoughts.

Thought insertion: A person may think that an external source or entity is inserting their thoughts into their mind.

Bizarre: A person may believe in a phenomenon that is impossible and unrelated to normal life.

[WHY]

OMG:

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9599-delusional-disorder

“Delusional disorder most often occurs in middle to late life, with the average age of onset being 40 years.”

This article also says delusional disorder leads to depression and withdrawal……..   Doesn’t this explain so much?

“The prognosis of delusional disorder is better if the person sticks to their treatment plan. Almost 50% of people have a full recovery, more than 20% of people report a decrease in symptoms and less than 20% of people report minimal to no change in symptoms.”

Any consistency in these figures with what we see with our MLCers?  Recovered meaning the fog lifts and feeling remorse but not necessarily reconciliation.

So 2/10 MLCers never come out of it?  Does this sound about right?

[Nas]

I understand the desire, but you really are asking for answers to unanswerable questions, especially when it comes to statistics and odds. There was a big debate here years ago where someone thought that MLC was a form of dementia and that if we could only get the medical community on board, it could prevent a lot of heartbreak. I am no expert but I feel that with a mental health condition, you can’t predict and pre-treat before it even develops, meaning that all of the fallout would still happen, no matter what name it’s given.
I remember early on, I could see shades of my former husband in the descriptions of every disorder on the planet. Supposing your wife does have delusional disorder, what changes? The odds of her recovering, regardless of stats, you can’t know for certain and it is entirely contingent on her desire to get help and taking steps to do it. They could add MLC to the DSM, imo it would likely not save any marriages because MLC is not about the marriage, and a recovery from MLC does not equal a restored marriage. I don’t say this to cause you any pain, in fact it’s the opposite. I fear you may exhaust yourself to the point of burn out looking for answers that cannot be had.

I’m sorry this is happening, to you and to every LBS. But the idea that if we could just get everyone else on board with seeing what we see, I don’t think it would make a difference. Our spouses, no matter what they are going through, still have autonomy and free will. I do wholeheartedly agree with Biscuit that after the similarities that occur around BD, the paths all diverge in so many different directions with so many unique variables. Even if a name is given what they are experiencing, they still get to make their own choices and those choices can’t be predicted.

[WHY]

Agreed.  But it is very valuable to me to understand this stuff, if only for closure.  It’s changes nothing in terms of hope, expectations, my upcoming D etc.   But it’s for me.   

Because I never truly wrapped my head around the depression explanation.  I suspect “delusional disorder” is a symptom vs a cause.  But my god does it explain a lot of the behavior. 

Check the persecutory type.  Explains the hate towards the LBS.  these false beliefs they are tightly held beliefs, where evidence doesn’t change their mind.  The rewriting of history.  This view of fantasyland vs reality.  It makes sooooooo much sense. 

Put it this way.  It’s a lot easier for LBS to understand and make peace with the rewriting of history (and not blame themself) when it’s explained in the DSM. 

[WHY]

“For Freud and many of his early pupils, delusions—like the majority of psychopathological symptoms—were the result of a conflict between psychological agencies, the id, ego, and super-ego. Delusion, briefly stated, is seen as a personal unconscious inner state or conflict which is turned outwards and attributed to the external world. “

Sounds like delusional disorder could be a symptom of an identity crisis. 

[Nas]

Put it this way.  It’s a lot easier for LBS to understand and make peace with the rewriting of history (and not blame themself) when it’s explained in the DSM.

The definition of “doing the work “ for the LBS is getting to the point where that rewritten history etc. is seen as a symptom of someone else’s major psychological event and not a statement about the LBS, who we are, our worth, etc. That’s why we have to do our own work, because the response to that initial blame and rewritten history etc. is an ego response. The pain of it is unavoidable because you spent a long time with this person who has changed so much. The loss of a life partner is a painful event. Understanding that they are in crisis is helpful because it helps to explain why they are rewriting history. But we cannot heal, in my opinion, until we are able to see with complete clarity that their actions towards us were about them and never about us.

[Atari25]

I understand the desire, but you really are asking for answers to unanswerable questions, especially when it comes to statistics and odds. There was a big debate here years ago where someone thought that MLC was a form of dementia and that if we could only get the medical community on board, it could prevent a lot of heartbreak. I am no expert but I feel that with a mental health condition, you can’t predict and pre-treat before it even develops, meaning that all of the fallout would still happen, no matter what name it’s given.
I remember early on, I could see shades of my former husband in the descriptions of every disorder on the planet. Supposing your wife does have delusional disorder, what changes? The odds of her recovering, regardless of stats, you can’t know for certain and it is entirely contingent on her desire to get help and taking steps to do it. They could add MLC to the DSM, imo it would likely not save any marriages because MLC is not about the marriage, and a recovery from MLC does not equal a restored marriage. I don’t say this to cause you any pain, in fact it’s the opposite. I fear you may exhaust yourself to the point of burn out looking for answers that cannot be had.

I’m sorry this is happening, to you and to every LBS. But the idea that if we could just get everyone else on board with seeing what we see, I don’t think it would make a difference. Our spouses, no matter what they are going through, still have autonomy and free will. I do wholeheartedly agree with Biscuit that after the similarities that occur around BD, the paths all diverge in so many different directions with so many unique variables. Even if a name is given what they are experiencing, they still get to make their own choices and those choices can’t be predicted.

I agree Nas, it's all about the MLC and nothing else. I have accepted it even though it breaks my heart - I feel completely helpless 😕. My main focus is to get her into therapy and my kids understand that this is the only way to get their mom back even if she doesn't ever come back to me. Still hasn't happened.

I am in disbelief that this is happening every day. Still early days for me.

[Biscuit]

Atari,

I'd recommend taking your focus off of getting your wife into therapy. These folks can take a long time (sometimes many many years) before they finally start to realise that something might be off internally  and even then many do nothing to help themselves out of the hole they've dug.  Getting into therapy is a big step for anyone - because if it is to be effective you have to really open yourself up and start to be introspective. Do you honestly think that your wife is in that head space right now?
If you did persuade her to get some help then it's likely that she'd wear the same mask with the therapist - and even blame / accuse you or you daughters for making her go.

Put your focus on your daughters and yourself - don't waste emotional energy on something that is at best, likely to be ineffective, and at worst could cause a wider rift between members of your family.
 

[Treasur]

Agreed.  But it is very valuable to me to understand this stuff, if only for closure.  It’s changes nothing in terms of hope, expectations, my upcoming D etc.   But it’s for me.   

Because I never truly wrapped my head around the depression explanation.  I suspect “delusional disorder” is a symptom vs a cause.  But my god does it explain a lot of the behavior. 

Check the persecutory type.  Explains the hate towards the LBS.  these false beliefs they are tightly held beliefs, where evidence doesn’t change their mind.  The rewriting of history.  This view of fantasyland vs reality.  It makes sooooooo much sense. 

Put it this way.  It’s a lot easier for LBS to understand and make peace with the rewriting of history (and not blame themself) when it’s explained in the DSM.

I wonder if it might be helpful, Why, to post a bit on your own thread about the current circumstances you are dealing with? I’m not sure if you are living with your wife still, or not, or how things are unfolding for you? And understanding more about your situation might help us be more helpful. But I can see you are searching for answers and throwing out questions so I understand - we probably all understand - that drive to be able to put a diagnostic label on it as a kind of ‘aha’ bit of closure.

Imho labels like this are tricky things. There’s a reason why professionally trained psychiatrists exist lol. And a reason why some may make mistakes too. And why just seeing a good one isn’t a magic fix. Humans can be pretty complicated imho. 

Are you right about delusional disorder? Idk. Maybe. Am I right in saying my xh had an MLC? Idk. Might be right, might be completely wrong. I accept that AND I found that sometimes having a sort of shorthand label for a clutch of WTF things beyond my understanding and beyond my control was helpful. But I’m not sure it helped anything much practically in my situation if that makes sense. I think it just helped me accept (eventually) that, whatever I called it, it wasn’t something I could stop or fix and it was really happening. My then h did do all the things he did and did seemingly not give a stuff about how it damaged my life or hurt anyone else involved. And that trying to talk rationally, negotiate or get answers was like trying to pin a jelly to the wall. 

Bc, however one labels someone else’s behaviour, DSM or not, does not in itself change the behaviour or the mindset behind the behaviour, does it? We humans tend to change how we see things, and consequently our own behavior, and then create a different loop between both, when and if our current framework hurts too much to hold. That’s as true for we LBS, I think, as it is for our spouses. Not done lightly or quickly for any of us, if only bc it is much much easier to hold to our own lens and blame others/events for not fitting in with how we see things. At least that was my experience when I developed PTSD….looking back, I had plenty of diagnosable PTSD symptoms for a couple of years before I sought out PTSD related help. Did I know something had gone awry in me? Yes. But I only sought help when I couldn’t live with it as it was and by that point, it didn’t matter much to me what it was called….what mattered to me was being able to engage with what I was actually experiencing in a different way and try some stuff out to see what helped and what didn’t. The label sort of helped and didn’t….it made me feel validated perhaps, it suggested trying some actions over others as a first shot bc of the mechanics of how PTSD works, but it did not in itself solve the problem. That happened at a much more day to day level with a whole bunch of try this then try that moments. Not a one size fits all process at all I found. What probably mattered most was my intent….i genuinely felt I could not live one more day where I was and would have tried anything or any label if it made even a small difference to that. I have no idea how close or far that is for MLC type folks who find their own recovery path though.

So, let’s say you are right? What does that give you that you did not have before? And what if you are right but your wife/ex wife continues to believe something else? What do you do with that set of cards?

I think there is a time for many of us when we honestly believe that the ‘right’ diagnosis will open a door to the ‘right’ kind of therapeutic help and that will change how our spouses see things and that will restore our relationship and that will then make our life better….there are, of course, quite a lot of ‘if this then that’ assumptions embedded in that process which may or may not turn out to be true. And of course quite a lot over which we have virtually no control or influence at all. Lots of potential slips between cup and lip 

I don’t think I am the only one here who believed something similar and whose then h did actually seek out psychiatric care at BD, but maybe I’m a minority. He knew something was deeply wrong with him and that he was a hot mess. He was looking for a diagnosis, I think, a label and a way to fix whatever was going on. And initially, if I remember right, his BD of ‘ILYBINILWY/I need soace’ was combined with begging me not to give up on him or us. Very confusing for me as I’m sure you can imagine. And he found a diagnosis…..severe depression and OCD….and was under psychiatric care and on medication for over a couple of years to my knowledge. Did that ‘fix’ him? Well, not from my point of view lol. In fact, his behaviour got rather more extreme in many ways. From his? Idk, he never said and then vanished off into his new life with ow, so no way to know. What I do remember is that my voice or perspective did not matter a jot to either him or his psychiatrist, and that I could never quite see why abusing me, creating chaos for both of us ending our marriage was an appropriate solution to a couple of DSM diagnoses! But, self evidently, in his head, perhaps in his psychiatrists head even ha ha, it was because that is what he did. And of course I have no idea how honest or accurate he was in his conversations with his psychiatrist or what his psychiatrist believed; I only know he lied a lot about a lot to a lot of people including me at that time. 

Did those diagnostic labels help him? I genuinely don’t know for all the reasons I said. I do know that they did not help me at all and I never received any kind of explanation about the link between the diagnosis and his behaviour or his departure. Although I did turn myself into an Amazon ‘expert’ on both deoression and OCD for a while 

So, where did all that take me eventually?
I suppose it helped me reach a point where I changed some of my beliefs and therefore my lens, and therefore my behaviour. Took a few years though lol. I could not honestly give you even now a 100% label to describe what happened to the h I loved so much and thought I knew so well. I could however see what the effects of it were. I could see what he did and didn’t do even when I did not understand the why of it if that makes sense. I could see what had my fingers in it and what just did not, what came from me and what came from somewhere or something or someone else regardless of anything I did or didn’t do. Even if I had no idea what the somewhere, something or someone else was. And found slowly that getting myself out of the chaos and pain of it came from focusing on the what not the why. It was a bit of a mindf**k though, not least bc it went against my natural impulses and some of my lens on the world to do that. And yet it was still the only way through it. I simply reached a point where it was obvious to me that I would not survive unless I changed my lens. Which takes me right back to my earlier point about how humans, LBS as much as our spouses, tend to only make big changes in our mindsets when we really feel we have little other choice. And how changing our own lens changes our own behaviour too. That was just as true for me as I so fervently wished it would be true for my then h and, having gone through that process myself, I have nothing but profound respect and compassion for just how very hard it is to do.

I don’t know where you are at right now, or what you currently believe that shapes your lens on the situation. Hence the value perhaps of your sharing more specifics on your own thread. What I am pretty sure about however is that, wherever you find yourself, it is more likely to change because you change your lens and change the questions you ask yourself and your own behavioural responses than any amount of speculation or diagnosis you might come to about someone else’s lens.

[Songanddance]

My main focus is to get her into therapy and my kids understand that this is the only way to get their mom back even if she doesn't ever come back to me. Still hasn't happened.

Atari
It will in all honesty serve little purpose.  The MLCer will only tell the therapist their point of view and their experience and more relevantly they will re- write history.  Or they will say little and waste time and money saying nothing at all.
Seeing a therapist is a personal decision and it has to be an honest, deep rooted need to be prepared to be exposed and to search your true self. 

I know - I saw one for 18 months and 6 months after BD.   H also saw a therapist who told him that I was clearly not a supportive wife and that if he was happier with OW then that is what he should pursue.   H admitted that he told his T that I had broken the marriage and that I was the one causing the issues and that he was the one who was the victim!   
So if I were such a terrible person - why did he refuse to leave the home and why did he cling like a major clinger and equally why did he tell me that OW was dysfunctional and quite simply the worst person he had ever known but he "lurved " her.

See what I'm getting at?  You asking your wife to go to therapy will not produce the results you seek - and it could make it worse.

Oh and here's the difference 11 years on....H goes to a psychiatrist for issues which he thinks are post stroke but the psychiatrist tells him that his brain fog is also due to the break up of his marriage which he was responsible for amongst many other things.  H has already apologised many times for destroying our marriage before he saw the psychiatrist but the psychiatrist's words stunned him and he rang me to apologise again for being a complete and utter **** throughout his crisis.

Now he's ready to listen - then he wasn't. 

[Acorn]

This thread led me to reflect on my early LBS days and one of the lessons I have learned and continue to learn — the importance of healthy detachment when appropriate.

……

It is my view that dwelling in the land of speculations and assumptions can lead to an unhealthy state of obsession with another person and/or relationship, creating an environment where the line between reality and fantasy becomes blurred.  The following quote comes to mind:

“He wove intricate conjectures around her, threaded with contrived casual links that quickly expanded into vast nets of suppositions, which he would unspin and weave again in different patterns.”  — excerpt from ‘Trust’ by Herman Diaz

It is perfectly understandable when the above mentioned ‘blurring’ occurs in the early days after BD.  However, after a period of grace to oneself, moving forward and living each day well is a choice we intentionally should and need to make, I suggest, because ‘today’ never comes back.  This is where focus on one’s own inner self and healthy detachment comes in. 

I suggest that healthy detachment is achievable  and many have done it — through investigating and learning what it means to be healthily detached, and consistently incorporating ‘how to detach’ into everyday life until a calm state of ‘detached with love’ becomes the norm.

In the context of this post, my reference to ‘detachment’ is not about the natural dialling down of the pain level that comes with the passage of time which I describe as a passive form of detachment.   Detachment, as I am referring to, is intentional; it takes much focus and work, and is attainable, as illustrated by many LBSs who have gone before me.

In short, healthy detachment involves:

- Eyes off your spouse, eyes on you. 
- Be curious and honest about yourself.
- You can only inhabit your own mind and not your partner's. 

I hope the following quote and link may whet your appetite for more information on healthy detachment.

“Detachment can best be described as a process of letting go. It allows you to release difficult situations and, sometimes, difficult people. By detaching from past experiences and future expectations, you can look at your relationships, both personal and professional, more objectively, which gives you greater clarity.

Holding on to an idea just because you have become attached to it creates anxiety. Once you detach from the desired outcome, you can stop worrying about it. The truth is that most attachment is about control, and control is an illusion. So it’s better to get on with your life, even when you don’t get exactly what you want.

When you release your desire for control over the lives of others, it sets everyone free. Those endless hours of frustration can be turned into fruitful days of creativity.

Detaching is not always easy. You must learn that even when things go differently from how you think they should, it’s okay. If you are in pain over a difference of opinion, it helps to understand why you want what you want in the first place. If your motivation is one of selfishness rather than one of balance, you may need to take another look at the situation.” — Dr. Goldsmith, Psychology Today

AND

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/how-to-detach-from-someone

Wishing you a great weekend. 
((((HUGS))))

[Nas]

I absolutely love that quote from Trust (great book). I’ve said before that the way that people see us is usually a function of what they need us to be. I said it in the context of my own need to *be seen* rather than created or invented, but It’s been equally or more important to me in my nonattachment to consider whether I am actually seeing others, rather than creating or inventing them. Usually, if we really are honest with ourselves, we can dig to the root of our opinion about a person or our assessment of an interaction and realize that it’s coming from us and it becomes an opportunity to know ourselves better. (that’s not to say that others can’t ever hurt us, or that we alone own responsibility for things that happen, but it makes a huge difference in the way that we confront things and respond.)

I think also, sometimes we can become a little blind to ourselves when assigning MLC as the cause of the behavior(s) of another that we either can’t explain or can’t accept because it’s hurtful. If the cause is something diagnosable and treatable, the pain is easier to deal with because we can conceive of an end to it. But it actually keeps us more attached to the situation. It prolongs the pain.

[Atari25]

Atari,

I'd recommend taking your focus off of getting your wife into therapy. These folks can take a long time (sometimes many many years) before they finally start to realise that something might be off internally  and even then many do nothing to help themselves out of the hole they've dug.  Getting into therapy is a big step for anyone - because if it is to be effective you have to really open yourself up and start to be introspective. Do you honestly think that your wife is in that head space right now?
If you did persuade her to get some help then it's likely that she'd wear the same mask with the therapist - and even blame / accuse you or you daughters for making her go.

Put your focus on your daughters and yourself - don't waste emotional energy on something that is at best, likely to be ineffective, and at worst could cause a wider rift between members of your family.

I was told by my therapist that if I could get her in to a therapist it would likely shorten the MLC or whatever she is going through. She has seemed more open to the idea when talking to my daughter. I realize it's a long haul and no guarantee but I feel like it gives me hope. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

[Atari25]

Atari
It will in all honesty serve little purpose.  The MLCer will only tell the therapist their point of view and their experience and more relevantly they will re- write history.  Or they will say little and waste time and money saying nothing at all.
Seeing a therapist is a personal decision and it has to be an honest, deep rooted need to be prepared to be exposed and to search your true self.

She has said she is open to therapy to my daughter and my work insurance covers up to $5000 of therapy so I don't have a lot to loose if she will go.

I am very focused on being strong for my kids. Maybe its fantasy that she goes but I know the car accident she had scared her and maybe it's a turning point. Maybe not. I'm looking for something to cling on.

[marvin4242]

I realize it's a long haul and no guarantee but I feel like it gives me hope. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

I'm looking for something to cling on.

I am so sorry, I can sense that this is all very very hard. And I am in no way trying to remove hope or make things harder, but I do have a question. Can you state what hope you are holding on to and what are you clinging onto? I don't mean to be simplistic, I assume you are hoping that things will go back to the way they were. The reason I am asking is more so maybe you can try to be more specific about what is happening, what you would like to see would happen next, and from what you have seen and experienced how likely it is.

Because I think we all need hope and we need to hold on to something, the important question may be what exactly is most likely to help us as we move forward rather than keep us in a loop of pain and disappointment.

[Atari25]

I realize it's a long haul and no guarantee but I feel like it gives me hope. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

I'm looking for something to cling on.

I am so sorry, I can sense that this is all very very hard. And I am in no way trying to remove hope or make things harder, but I do have a question. Can you state what hope you are holding on to and what are you clinging onto? I don't mean to be simplistic, I assume you are hoping that things will go back to the way they were. The reason I am asking is more so maybe you can try to be more specific about what is happening, what you would like to see would happen next, and from what you have seen and experienced how likely it is.

Because I think we all need hope and we need to hold on to something, the important question may be what exactly is most likely to help us as we move forward rather than keep us in a loop of pain and disappointment.

She will probably never be who she was I accept that but I want her to eventually get through what she is going through and come back. She loved me for 25 year and I know that love is still there.

Again no guarantee I know. I can't give up on her yet.

[FrenchHusband]

This thread led me to reflect on my early LBS days and one of the lessons I have learned and continue to learn — the importance of healthy detachment
[...]
In short, healthy detachment involves:

- Eyes off your spouse, eyes on you. 
- Be curious and honest about yourself.
- You can only inhabit your own mind and not your partner's. 

I hope the following quote and link may whet your appetite for more information on healthy detachment.

“Detachment can best be described as a process of letting go. It allows you to release difficult situations and, sometimes, difficult people. By detaching from past experiences and future expectations, you can look at your relationships, both personal and professional, more objectively, which gives you greater clarity.

Holding on to an idea just because you have become attached to it creates anxiety. Once you detach from the desired outcome, you can stop worrying about it. The truth is that most attachment is about control, and control is an illusion. So it’s better to get on with your life, even when you don’t get exactly what you want.

When you release your desire for control over the lives of others, it sets everyone free. Those endless hours of frustration can be turned into fruitful days of creativity.

Detaching is not always easy. You must learn that even when things go differently from how you think they should, it’s okay. If you are in pain over a difference of opinion, it helps to understand why you want what you want in the first place. If your motivation is one of selfishness rather than one of balance, you may need to take another look at the situation.” — Dr. Goldsmith, Psychology Today

Great post Acorn ! Thank you very much for your wise words !
After reading a lot of stories, I come to the conclusion that there is no clear way to predict the outcome. The odds are not very good, it is better to be aware of this fact. Even if we can keep hope, NO EXPECTATION is the best policy in healthy relationship. The sooner we live "as if our spouse won't come back", the better it is for us LBS, and IMHO for our spouses under MLC.

I was told by my therapist that if I could get her in to a therapist it would likely shorten the MLC or whatever she is going through. She has seemed more open to the idea when talking to my daughter. I realize it's a long haul and no guarantee but I feel like it gives me hope. Maybe I'm fooling myself, I don't know.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to shorten or decrease the MLC. The only influence we LBS can have on the MLC is negative, or neutral at best. As WHY writes, I think focussing on our spouses under MLC is a waste of time and only leads to delusion when our expectations are unmet. The LBS focussing on the LBS and the children is the right move IMHO.

[OffRoad]

I just think if people had happy endings.  They would come back to post and give people hope.  Even if 10 years had passed. 

The lack of happy stories leads me to believe there are few.

I'm late to this party but wanted to mention that I know of at least 3 recons that just decided to walk away from the forum because they didn't want anyone judging, didn't want to explain, didn't want any input on their situation at all. So there is a small percentage that do just recon and leave. You cannot assume that if someone doesn't post "We're back together and so happy" that it didn't happen. Hard for those who would like that information for sure, but everyone gets to choose for themselves.

[xyzcf]

Well said Offroad:

I'm late to this party but wanted to mention that I know of at least 3 recons that just decided to walk away from the forum because they didn't want anyone judging, didn't want to explain, didn't want any input on their situation at all. So there is a small percentage that do just recon and leave. You cannot assume that if someone doesn't post "We're back together and so happy" that it didn't happen. Hard for those who would like that information for sure, but everyone gets to choose for themselves.

I also know recons...HS is not necessary or needed as they grow in their lives, together again.

[Atari25]

I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to shorten or decrease the MLC. The only influence we LBS can have on the MLC is negative, or neutral at best. As WHY writes, I think focussing on our spouses under MLC is a waste of time and only leads to delusion when our expectations are unmet. The LBS focussing on the LBS and the children is the right move IMHO.

Everything I have read and heard indicates that therapy can shorten MLC. It makes sense. If someone gets help to sort thorough their issues they should come out of it faster.

Like I said I remain strong and focused on my kids and family. I always have and that will never ever change. My wife is still family. I know there is very little I can do, my daughter is pushing her.

[Atari25]

I just think if people had happy endings.  They would come back to post and give people hope.  Even if 10 years had passed. 

The lack of happy stories leads me to believe there are few.

I'm late to this party but wanted to mention that I know of at least 3 recons that just decided to walk away from the forum because they didn't want anyone judging, didn't want to explain, didn't want any input on their situation at all. So there is a small percentage that do just recon and leave. You cannot assume that if someone doesn't post "We're back together and so happy" that it didn't happen. Hard for those who would like that information for sure, but everyone gets to choose for themselves.

I appreciate the post.

I know odds are probably against me but I cannot give up. It's almost certainly long road back. Maybe things will turn for the worse and my thinking will change.

I appreciate everyones opinion though. Hard reality is she is gone and she is full blown MLC and very delusional at times.

[Songanddance]

but I cannot give up

And no -one is asking you to do just that.  This is not a "kick them to the kerb" forum.

However as Acorn states - staying attached to an idea creates anxiety and it is that anxiety that keeps people stuck. 

You say your D is pushing your wife to therapy.  It's natural for them to want that.

Everything I have read and heard indicates that therapy can shorten MLC. It makes sense. If someone gets help to sort thorough their issues they should come out of it faste

The thing is - it makes sense to logical people.  MLCers are illogical.  If you have PTSD or have had some kind of trauma and it all comes to a head but your behaviour around the family remains consistent and true then therapy is often a good thing.

However, as you say your MLCer is deluded, therefore  the outcome of any therapy might make it worse for the loved ones.  The therapist can only work with what the client says about themselves.  And so there is the high risk that,even if the MLCer goes to therapy, (and very often they refuse because " there's nothing wrong with them!")  the outcome will have the opposite desired effect.

[WHY]

but I cannot give up

However, as you say your MLCer is deluded, therefore  the outcome of any therapy might make it worse for the loved ones.

That’s why they need a psychiatrist vs a therapist IMO.  Look at delusional disorder.  False believes even when presented with real life evidence that contradicts what they belief?  You can’t talk therapy someone who’s delusional.   

[marvin4242]

That’s why they need a psychiatrist vs a therapist IMO.  Look at delusional disorder.  False believes even when presented with real life evidence that contradicts what they belief?  You can’t talk therapy someone who’s delusional.

I am not sure I follow this line of reasoning. Psychiatrist can deal with neurochemical issues. There are certain mental health problems that definitely are helped or addressed by medication. But if someone is having a psychological crisis due to childhood trauma or other incomplete developmental issues what do you think a psychiatrist can do?

One of the many dangers of untrained diagnosis is that symptomology can cover many many varying conditions with great overlap. This also applies to organic diseases, so it’s very easy to read descriptions and apply them incorrectly.

I think we all would like to make sense of something that does not inherently make sense externally. We grasp to explanations or try to figure something out. Because we believe that if we can name it then we can address it. Unfortunately this is not how the human mind works and it’s just not that simple.

[WHY]

Agreed.  But we keep saying there's underlying depression throughout MLC, which is neurochemical.  Wouldnt it be logical to assume there must be some sort of neurochemical issue at play, whether we understand it or not.  I'd argue that it makes more sense that there is.

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

I just wish we had more understanding of what happens during this massive psychological event that completely alters personality.  I dont think we've scratched the surface. 

[Ready2Transform]

Back in the day (if you look over some of the old research threads in the archives) we also felt it was an aha moment when we found Dissociative Fugue. It also sounds on paper like other things. My xH did have a psychiatrist...and therapist...and MD. They thought it was bipolar disorder. They also thought it was social anxiety. They can only go on what the patient told them, and perform what kind of treatment the patient was willing to undertake. My father lambasted me for a while for not having my xH committed - as though I had that power! This is not 1950. Thank God! If someone isn't a risk physically to themselves or others, there is not the option to entrap them and refuse to let them make their own choices.

[Nas]

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

This is simply just not true. There’s a real danger in making statements like this. Delusional disorder is actually exceedingly rare. As has been said, the description of delusional disorder may sound to a layperson like what many lbs are dealing with, but it’s a misinterpretation of the described symptoms.

Just to give a real world example of how untrained diagnosis can lead lead to further distress and unnecessary harm to our emotional well-being: recently I had a scan that showed what the radiologist wrote up as some alarming findings. I was given a copy of the radiologist’s report prior to meeting with my oncologist. So I spent several days in distress and trying not to consult Dr Google about what these findings actually were. When I finally met with the oncologist, it turns out I’m fine. Nothing to worry about. So after having gotten that good news, then I went to Google and typed in the particular finding, which brought up frighteningly scary information. Statistics and descriptions that fit me to a T and would have had me completely convinced that I was a goner.

What happened was the result of an overzealous but slightly overconfident radiologist who overestimated his knowledge of my particular rare subset of breast cancer. And he is a highly trained professional. We need to be really careful about putting ideas out there and especially when stating them as fact.

[WHY]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3109/00048674.2010.551279
Depressive disorders were the most common psychiatric, comorbid disorders with DD (32.6%), followed by anxiety disorders (14.0%).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S092493381601381X
Depression is a highly prevalent condition among patients with delusional disorder.

[Nas]

Why, all this means is that of the relatively small population who have diagnosed delusional disorder, some of that small group also have depression.

[WHY]

I am convinced my MLCer has developed delusional disorder as a coping mechanism to avoid her depression.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9599-delusional-disorder#:~:text=Delusional%20disorder%20is%20a%20type,persecutory%2C%20jealous%20and%20grandiose%20types.

What are the types of delusional disorder?

There are different types of delusional disorder, which are determined based on the main theme of the delusions the person experiences. The types of delusional disorder include:

Erotomanic: People with this type of delusional disorder believe that another person, often someone important or famous, is in love with them. They may attempt to contact the person of the delusion and engage in stalking behavior.

*Having an at home wallower with fantasy alienator, need I say more....  Her limerance started 2.5 years ago and is still going strong.....  Its insane. 

Grandiose: People with this type of delusional disorder have an overinflated sense of self-worth, power, knowledge or identity. They may believe they have a great talent or have made an important discovery.

*How many times have people here referred to their MLCer having "overinflated sense of self-worth" lol.  This was particularly prevalent in early replay, recently not so much, but its still there.

Jealous: People with this type of delusional disorder believe that their spouse or sexual partner is unfaithful without any concrete evidence.

*I see no signs of this.

Persecutory: People with this type of delusional disorder believe someone or something is mistreating, spying on or attempting to harm them (or someone close to them). People with this type of delusional disorder may make repeated complaints to legal authorities.

*RCR herself has a piece on her blog "life is a pity party" ha.  Poor me poor me!  My LBS is out to get me.  My LBS has ruined my life.  It's all my LBSs fault!  The paranoia I've seen is unreal and completely unjustified.

Somatic: People with this type of delusional disorder believe that they have a physical issue or medical problem, such as a parasite or a bad odor.

*I see no signs of this.

Mixed: People with this type of delusional disorder have two or more of the types of delusions listed above.

*Yip.

[KayDee]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3109/00048674.2010.551279
Depressive disorders were the most common psychiatric, comorbid disorders with DD (32.6%), followed by anxiety disorders (14.0%).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S092493381601381X
Depression is a highly prevalent condition among patients with delusional disorder.

There could be some cognitive bias here - because what these articles are saying is that depression is commonly co-morbid to DD, but not the other way around. For instance, obesity likely has a high co-morbidity with heart disease, but that figure will be different  when looking at co-morbid conditions leading with heart disease. (example here, I am not a doctor  - there is the famous 'all roses are flowers' proposition)

[Treasur]

I am convinced my MLCer has developed delusional disorder as a coping mechanism to avoid her depression.

Ok, let’s say you’re right.
And so….?
What do you do with that knowledge, Why?

[Atari25]

However as Acorn states - staying attached to an idea creates anxiety and it is that anxiety that keeps people stuck. 

You are right on anxiety to some extent but not really for me. I don't feel like I'm stuck. I will discuss this more with my therapist this week.

The thing is - it makes sense to logical people.  MLCers are illogical.  If you have PTSD or have had some kind of trauma and it all comes to a head but your behaviour around the family remains consistent and true then therapy is often a good thing.

However, as you say your MLCer is deluded, therefore  the outcome of any therapy might make it worse for the loved ones.  The therapist can only work with what the client says about themselves.  And so there is the high risk that,even if the MLCer goes to therapy, (and very often they refuse because " there's nothing wrong with them!")  the outcome will have the opposite desired effect.

Well that is all possible, especially if she goes to a therapist that is incompetent or doesn't know much about MLC depression kind of disorders.

[WHY]

I am convinced my MLCer has developed delusional disorder as a coping mechanism to avoid her depression.

Ok, let’s say you’re right.
And so….?
What do you do with that knowledge, Why?

Nothing.  My stand is over.  But perhaps it can help others that follow.

Because MLC is such a soul destroying, life altering, traumatic experience for the LBS, that the human being in me feels an obligation to help others that may end up in the same shoes.  My hope is that in the decades to come, that perhaps we'll come to understand what causes this whole thing, and that it will somehow become treatable.

I think it's very important that collectively, members of this forum continue to share their ideas and experiences, so that our thinking can evolve with time.  Remember when everyone said the earth was flat?  Only through challenging existing assumptions, gathering new data, and thinking outside of the box, may we be able to get to the bottom of what the hell really happens to our MLCers. 

And it's equally important that new ideas, no matter how "out there", don't get dismissed because of what we believe now.  Heck they should be embraced and not stifled.  Didnt we burn people at the stake because they thought the earth was flat!!??  Yeah that was a boo boo. 

"If only we knew back then what we know now....." right?  Sure MLC has been studied since this 60s, but think about how technology has brought the entire planet together to be able to share their experiences and gather data.  This forum has only been around for ~10-15 years?  Imagine what we'll learn over 50 years. 

At least I hope so.  Because easing the suffering of others and stopping the destruction of families and the ripple effects on kids can only be a good thing.  I feel like it's our responsibility to try. 

[Songanddance]

Well that is all possible, especially if she goes to a therapist that is incompetent or doesn't know much about MLC depression kind of disorders.

Maybe - but I think you're doing therapists a disservice.  Having had therapy for 18 months - I can only say that  the therapist can only deal with what they're told by the client and they have no way of knowing if it is a "pack of lies."  I chose to be honest about myself and only focus on me and thank goodness I did.  Equally at no point did my T ever advise or make a comment about my marriage or my feelings about my M. She was only interested in me and helping me help myself. 

As  I said earlier - my H told his therapist in about yr 2 of his crisis that I was the most awful unloving wife and he couldn't be with me.  So his T eventually told him that he ought to make a decision about this.  He did - he stopped seeing the T, carried on living at home whilst continuing to see OW!   In hindsight that was projection about himself  - he had become the most awful unloving husband and I couldn't possibly want to be with him.

But the therapist cannot dig deep if the client doesn't let them.

[marvin4242]

At least I hope so.  Because easing the suffering of others and stopping the destruction of families and the ripple effects on kids can only be a good thing.  I feel like it's our responsibility to try.

Why, I think your thoughts are extremely commendable. And yes we all share ideas, experiences, and we have viewpoints, and not all of us agree of course. Different world views, different experiences, and obviously different spouses with MLC. Some of us have come to the conclusion that they were dealing with covert narcissists who hid themselves well until their MLC hit. Does that mean the narcissism caused it? No it means when they fractured they could no longer hide things. It would be easy to mistake cause and effect, and in fact it is one of the most important differentiations to figure out what is happening.

In my example I always knew my wife had borderline traits (you can look them up). That is NOT what caused her MLC. It impacted her life, and when she had a crises these traits became heightened, like anything else. So a professional with prior information would be able to differentiate that from diagnosing her with BPD. But lay people can not.

It is dangerous to diagnose anything about ourselves and our loved ones without true expert process. I have had the privilege of access to multiple very good therapists and have talked to them at length about my experience with my W. Some dismiss MLC out of hand because it is not a "diagnosable" condition. The other more experienced once's nod their head and one of the best immediately started describing what kind of behaviour she would expect to see (she was incredibly correct). Then we discussed all the underlying pressures and behaviours, and how none of them are the cause. Even if they were treated it would change nothing. Because most likely the cause started very early in childhood, and it was something that had been building in pressure, most likely it was contained or compensated for until it hit a crises point.

Once we are in crises we do change, and sure there may be neurochemical changes. But that doesn't mean much, it's more effect than cause. I have neurochemical changes when I am having a great week, that is not treatable. But someone with organic neurochemical balance issues needs to be treated because that is the cause not the effect.

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, just trying to share information that may be useful.

[Atari25]

Well that is all possible, especially if she goes to a therapist that is incompetent or doesn't know much about MLC depression kind of disorders.

Maybe - but I think you're doing therapists a disservice.  Having had therapy for 18 months - I can only say that  the therapist can only deal with what they're told by the client and they have no way of knowing if it is a "pack of lies."  I chose to be honest about myself and only focus on me and thank goodness I did.  Equally at no point did my T ever advise or make a comment about my marriage or my feelings about my M. She was only interested in me and helping me help myself. 

As  I said earlier - my H told his therapist in about yr 2 of his crisis that I was the most awful unloving wife and he couldn't be with me.  So his T eventually told him that he ought to make a decision about this.  He did - he stopped seeing the T, carried on living at home whilst continuing to see OW!   In hindsight that was projection about himself  - he had become the most awful unloving husband and I couldn't possibly want to be with him.

But the therapist cannot dig deep if the client doesn't let them.

I think that's true initially, mask is on and walls are up.

Eventually the walls do come down though IMO. The question is I suppose, can you get the MLC in for more than one visit?

[xyzcf]

No one can say for sure what causes MLC. There are many theories, many ideas. These have been expressed by posters throughout the years.

No one answer is correct.

I am better when I have some knowledge about a topic. It helps me to understand and allows me to realize that this is something real, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to turn the crisis into "normal" behavior. Until, in some cases, that happens "spontaneously" and we read that some MLCers are better than they were before their crisis. Other never seem to "come back" and once again, no reason why some do and others don't.

When people read information that they think might pertain to MLC, there is a thread to post it on.

The most current "Links, Blogs and articles to share" is found at:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12131.0

Over time, many people have shared information about things that struck them about MLC.

Accept that as individuals, we all have our own personal stories, belief systems and knowledge base concerning MLC.

As adults, we can read things that resonate with us and our situation, and by all means share this information.

What I find here, is arguing about whose research is right and whose is wrong. Judgement of those ideas we disagree with and a strong desire to "protect" other posters from ideas that others do not agree with.

Do any of us need to be defending our position, especially here.?

Is anyone here really more knowledgeable than another?

People comment on what their therapists have said...does that make them an authority? Especially since they most likely have never met our MLC spouse.And like in so many other professions, a different therapist will have a different point of view.

My thoughts as I read along...is it truly helpful to point out to people that they are wrong based upon, as Acorn has coined, a sample of one?

[marvin4242]

My thoughts as I read along...is it truly helpful to point out to people that they are wrong based upon, as Acorn has coined, a sample of one?

Xyzcf I am very curious, where do you see any poster trying to tell another one that they are "wrong?" Sharing information is not the same as telling someone they are wrong. But there are known things in any given field, everything is not just "opinion" and when it does come to expertise I personally prefer to listen to people who have deep knowledge in a field rather than a random person's opinion.

The web (not this website to be clear) is littered with opinion about MLC masquerading as fact. There are people who sell false hope (again to be clear I am NOT talking about this site). So yes, everyone's experience is absolutely valid, everyone's opinion is absolutely valid, no one that I see is trying to tell anyone else what to think or believe. But that does not translate to an idea that all views on MLC are the same, or that just because therapists may have slightly different takes on something that means nothing is known and its all opinion.

[Nas]

To be fair, I did tell Why that something he said was not true/wrong. He was misinterpreting the information he read, that of people who have delusional disorder, which is well documented as an extremely rare disorder, some (but not all) also have depression alongside their delusional disorder. It did not say that depression is a precursor for delusional disorder. Or that depression plays any role whatsoever in the development of the disorder.

I also agree that there are lots of things in psychology that are “known“ and no amount of differing layman opinion can change those facts. And as someone with way too much experience with the medical field as a patient, the description of many symptoms can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Look at the symptoms for ovarian cancer, they are vaguely described and every woman on this forum has probably experienced them all. We cannot all just assume we have ovarian cancer because the description we read fits us. It’s perhaps more true for symptoms of psychological disorders. Even the symptoms for depression, without evaluation by a professional, could “fit” people who do not in any way suffer from depression.

This is a discussion thread, not a personal story thread. I for one am always glad to see discussion threads get started. I don’t think we have enough of them on this forum. We used to have more.

[xyzcf]

Xyzcf I am very curious, where do you see any poster trying to tell another one that they are "wrong?

Quote from: WHY on Today at 08:24:45 AM

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

Response from another poster:
"This is simply just not true. There’s a real danger in making statements like this"

It's a tone, I feel that people are judging others, trying to bend their mind to what they consider "best".

Why often brings up wanting to know what kind of stats there are, why more people do not continue to post....this is not important to me but it seems to be important to him. He's often told to take his eyes off the need to know this and focus on himself...but this is what he is interested in ( and I believe he has focused on himself in the meantime)  and if he wishes to express that here, then so be it. Is it harmful to his healing and growth? I don't know but he's an adult and can make decisions for himself about his research into this topic.

Another poster has expressed that "he cannot give up and needs to have hope".....I  read that as meaning from other things he has written that he has hope that his wife will get therapy and get through the crisis. He's been told repeatedly that therapy doesn't work and then given a list of things he can have hope for in his future...none of which include a reconciliation with his wife.

As you said marvin, this site is not trying to sell anything to save the MLCer.

Recently, I have been interested in the use of hallucinogens, LSD, psilocybin (Magic mushrooms) and others that are being used to treat depression, PTSD, major anxiety disorders and my mind has entertained the idea...from some things I have read...what if these substances were used on someone with a MLC....could they have some effect of them?

It's just a thought I have, but things get discovered from thoughts and ideas that no one thinks could be possible.

People are not wrong..they are hurting. We can share our own experiences, but I do not believe that we should insist that they follow the road we took.

Just my opinion as I read along.

[Treasur]

We find ourselves living in a truth-ish world nowadays, don’t we? And of course a lot of we LBS are rather sensitive, if we experienced a lot of gaslighting, to the difference between my truth, your truth and a factual truth. Or indeed the difference between truth and opinion, the danger of one’s own cognitive biases and the potential risks of a kind of group think or confirmation bias. Probably why discussion threads are particularly useful here, idk.

I think one of the things I find tricky is how to say anything potentially useful at all when a new poster shows up metaphorically bleeding. Most of us, even years on, empathise with that yearning for answers and solutions and hope. We remember it in our bones perhaps even if we no longer feel it as we once did. And sometimes it sits uncomfortably with the lessons we took from our own experience or the conclusions we reached eventually in our own situation. And we understand that sometimes an LBS has to go through their own version of that mental tussle before they reach a place where they can consider seeing some things through a different lens. And that the tussle can lead us to different conclusions from one LBS to another.

Sometimes I don’t know what to say bc I can’t give the kind of certainty or reassurance that folks are so desparately and understandably seeking. But I also don’t want to blow soothing smoke about things I can’t know either or things where the prognosis, if one played the odds based on the available information, are poor. Or tbh just when one has the hard earned humility to say I don’t know. Even now, I couldn’t say with honest certainty that my xh had an MLC, or why, or what I could have done differently that might have made a difference to what happened. And if I can’t say that about my xh, how on earth could I possibly say that about someone else’s spouse or someone else’s situation? That’s just beyond my pay grade, so to some extent I just can’t answer many of those understandable questions that new and newish posters have. I can only with hindsight see some things I did or didn’t do that made the situation I found myself in worse or better for me, and how someone else’s ‘crisis’ and behaviour created a different kind of ‘crisis’ and reactions in me and my life. Is that useful to anyone else? Idk.

I think having a place where you feel heard and not crazy, where people are respectful and gentle about how you feel at a given time, can be helpful in itself, so I’m a bit disappointed with myself at times when I have been too absolute or too quick to judge or a bit bite-y with others. Or vice versa. Sometimes it’s ok to say nothing when we don’t agree perhaps 

I think what I do know a bit more about - partly from my own experience, partly from story after story here, partly from my own professional background - is the patterns in how most LBS react and the potential damage they can incur. And the things that may be worth trying that help the LBS to create a bit of stable ground under their feet in the first couple of years. But even that comes with a million caveats of sample of one at a time, doesn’t it?  I don’t think I have anything very useful to say about MLC or MLCers tbh. But then they are not the ones who usually show up here looking for support, are they? 

[FrenchHusband]

Regarding all the prognosis stuff, I have maybe one piece to add, a quote I have read a long time ago regarding adolescence. Anna Freud wrote that what would be pathologic for adults is "normal" for adolescents : neurosis, psychosis or asocial behavior by example.

From my point of view, what is now considered "normal" for teenagers under existential crisis can be applied also to our dear spouses under Mid Life Crisis (another existential crisis). So many diagnosis may seem to make sense... even if the whole situation is lacking sense.

What I find good for me, dealing with my W under MLC and 2 daughters under (mild) teenage crisis : I apply the policy that is recomended here : focus on myself, GAL, detach, do not react, no expectation, set up boundaries, etc... Regarding the daughters, I observe the outcome is very positive almost immediately for me and for our relationship. Regarding W, well there is no improvement on her but no worsening, and at least there is improvement and peace for me.

[Atari25]

No one can say for sure what causes MLC. There are many theories, many ideas. These have been expressed by posters throughout the years.

No one answer is correct.

I am better when I have some knowledge about a topic. It helps me to understand and allows me to realize that this is something real, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to turn the crisis into "normal" behavior. Until, in some cases, that happens "spontaneously" and we read that some MLCers are better than they were before their crisis. Other never seem to "come back" and once again, no reason why some do and others don't.

When people read information that they think might pertain to MLC, there is a thread to post it on.

The most current "Links, Blogs and articles to share" is found at:

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=12131.0

Over time, many people have shared information about things that struck them about MLC.

Accept that as individuals, we all have our own personal stories, belief systems and knowledge base concerning MLC.

As adults, we can read things that resonate with us and our situation, and by all means share this information.

What I find here, is arguing about whose research is right and whose is wrong. Judgement of those ideas we disagree with and a strong desire to "protect" other posters from ideas that others do not agree with.

Do any of us need to be defending our position, especially here.?

Is anyone here really more knowledgeable than another?

People comment on what their therapists have said...does that make them an authority? Especially since they most likely have never met our MLC spouse.And like in so many other professions, a different therapist will have a different point of view.

My thoughts as I read along...is it truly helpful to point out to people that they are wrong based upon, as Acorn has coined, a sample of one?

Well said.

The more I read and hear from other people the better. I was so lost 3-4 months ago and places like this help me understand and give me more confidence in myself. I can see now it's going to be a long journey, I appreciate everyone's opinions.

[UrsaMajor]

I resurrected the discussion thread on detachment form the Archives based on the discussion here and a request form the original Thread Owner

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10663.0

[marvin4242]

Xyzcf I am very curious, where do you see any poster trying to tell another one that they are "wrong?

Quote from: WHY on Today at 08:24:45 AM

And guess what the most common comorbidity with depression is?  Delusional disorder....

Response from another poster:
"This is simply just not true. There’s a real danger in making statements like this"

It's a tone, I feel that people are judging others, trying to bend their mind to what they consider "best".

Thank you for clarifying, I agree that tone is very important and one of my favorite things about this site has been the kindness, the tone and the fact that it has never become a free for all due to moderation and the people involved. It truly is a safe place regardless of viewpoint, beliefs and where we are in our journey.

I guess I never felt like any post had any tone that I picked up. If anything I would’ve argued that what I wrote is over the same theoretical line. It definitely was not my intent. I am participating here because I’d like to help people as I was helped when I was truly struggling. I do believe the best thing to do is support people where they are not where we think they should be. But in my opinion, sometimes it is useful to separate knowledge and fact from opinion and belief. Specially, when we are very lost, confused and in pain. When we feel like we are drowning we try to hold onto anything we can and I think holding on something that floats is much more useful than holding onto something that sinks.

[xyzcf]

When we feel like we are drowning we try to hold onto anything we can and I think holding on something that floats is much more useful than holding onto something that sinks.

Thanks for your response marvin. Indeed, I think each one of us wants to "help" others and we all have things to share. But a bit of what you wrote, makes me think of the word "fixers" which we caution people not to try and be for their MLCer.  This forum is great, but it captures only the written word. We don't see the LBSer's "body language" and we truly don't have much knowledge of the poster's real life situation. For example, LBSers with children may need to have a different approach than those who do not have children.

I have been thinking about this thread a lot.....and what I needed when I first came to HS and for a long time after. My sample of one...I absolutely had to have hope that my husband would return to our marriage. At that time, I really could not process anything else. I don't know what would have happened to me had I not had hope that this was something temporary and it would all go away. I was not ready to hear anything else.

The rest of my world kept telling me I was wrong, move on....I was not ready.

What I benefitted most from was the support of others. Honestly, HS was very different then.  I also needed to discuss what was causing MLC...some of those discussions were pretty wild.  But they helped me to get to the place where I was ready to accept. My faith also plays a big part in my hope and how I chose to treat my husband.

I keep going back to what I have learned about adult learning, at least what I was taught in my work experience of educating adults in health and behavioral change. I come from this knowledge base that unless the person is ready, change is not possible.

I also think a lot about Viktor Frankel's "Man's Search for Meaning" and those who survived the concentration camp because they had "hope" and also did not set a time frame for when their captivity would end.

The trauma that the LBSer is going through, I did not understand that this would cause so much wounding. I thought, well, many people divorce and they "get over it".......wasn't quite so straight forward or easy. I really "expected" to be ok maybe in a year? he was after all "only a man and not a very good man at that."

We all have our own personal styles. And some things we say will work for some posters but not for all.

But we are NOT "fixers" to prevent the LBSer from the journey that he/she will need to take to heal. We don't have enough information about posters to make  what feels like absolute "instructions" of what we must do to heal. And, I think we need to respect where the LBSer is....the early years are really hard...and yes, we would like to make that easier...but I do think, after many years of observing, that we are pretty good at figuring out how to heal and become whole...and that will be different for each of us...so pushing our views on others can sometimes feel like we don't think the LBSer can make their own decision.

Again, just my point of view.

[Nas]

I'm actually a bit speechless at the content of this thread.

"The truth does not change based on our ability to stomach it." I love this quote in your signature, XYZ.

Is "help" only help when it fits one's worldview? That's an honest question to you, because it does seem that you don't have any problem sharing how you felt, how you feel now, and what you believe should be done on this forum, while at the exact same time, criticizing other people's sharing of their own feelings and opinions. We're all doing the same thing, but some people are saying things that you don't agree with. Voicing ones opinion is very different from fixing. I very, very rarely on this forum have seen anyone say "You NEED to do X" or "You MUST do Y." It has happened, but, again, rarely, and usually in circumstances where abuse has been indicated. And even then, the intent behind it seems well meaning.

I have seen fixers in my life, Marvin is not one. Nor am I. What I am is a person who has faith in the resilience of LBS to persevere after turmoil. Treating them as if they are helpless and incapable of hearing anything other than what they wish to be true in my opinion is not a necessity, but at times enabling and perhaps a bit infantilizing. I trust each and every member of this forum to make their own choices, no matter what I or anyone else shares with them. I also trust their ability to ignore specific posts or entire threads that don't resonate or don't hold interest for them.
As you say, we all have our own personal styles, and some things we say may help some while not helping others. There's no need to shut down discussions because of this, nor is there any reason to label people unkind or "fixers" when they're just giving voice to their lived experience and sharing their thoughts and feelings.

Funnily enough, I'm at a conference this week with over 250 neuroscientists, and I am hearing and learning all kinds of very interesting things - some topics that have briefly been touched on are of particular interest to this forum (limerence as an addiction came up yesterday) and I hope to have time to share some stuff soon. But I wanted to quickly respond here.

[Songanddance]

but I do not believe that we should insist that they follow the road we took.

Not quite sure where anyone on this thread insisted on anything.

Voicing ones opinion is very different from fixing

   
Quite!

Equally voicing one's own experience is also not fixing - it's simply throwing our hard earned and sometimes painfully acquired knowledge into the mix and hoping that it gives the LBS, who is hurting, enough information to help them decide what is right for them.

I also trust their ability to ignore specific posts or entire threads that don't resonate or don't hold interest for them.

Exactly.

It's a discussion thread which has, ironically, gone way off piste from the original question;has that been answered by the way?

[UrsaMajor]

It's a discussion thread which has, ironically, gone way off piste from the original question;has that been answered by the way?

No but mostly because there is no real answer to where all the LBS's from 2017 are today.... They are somewhere out there int eh worlkd... Some are still here (My ABD was December 2015 so ....). Others have moved on, begun new R's, gotten married, have likely reconnected, possibly reconciled but the fact is we don't KNOW where they are if they don't come back to post.

The reasons they choose not to come back and post  are as myriad as the the LBS's themselves are....

[HeavenlyFocus]

What I benefitted most from was the support of others. Honestly, HS was very different then.  I also needed to discuss what was causing MLC...some of those discussions were pretty wild.  But they helped me to get to the place where I was ready to accept. My faith also plays a big part in my hope and how I chose to treat my husband.

When I first joined HS years ago, I must have ready every thread with a female MLCer going back to early years so I could both understand and have some hope that my marriage could eventually be saved.   This helped me get through the toughest times during the first two years when family and friends in my life truly didn't have a clue.

Years later, I don't have the desire or really need to update as much.  The truth is my MLC XW is still a mess and not much has changed.   I felt I was telling the same story every month and got to the point where it felt like Ground Hog day.

What I hope for myself is that I continue down my journey for healing and never let what my XW did to me or my family cause bitterness in my life.   I accepted what has happened and am just moving forward.

I don't need to know now why my XW did what she did nor what has happened to others.   Just hope that all LBS here in the forum find peace with their new lives with or without their their MLC partner.   

HF

[Shining Star]

I started my story in 2013 or 2014 when I found the site and I had gotten the " I don't want to be married anymore."  I wrote for years trying to navigate what was happening.  After the boomerang stage and all the crazy behavior, he divorced me.  He moved to another state to be with OW.  The two times that I have seen him since 2017 at family events, he has ignored me as if we were strangers.  Last summer I approached him at a wedding and told him it had been a long time and was it possible to have a relationship as friends and meet once a year to make sure the other person was ok.  He said he had moved past any need to have me in his life.  The fact I am so irrelevant and not worth a cup of coffee once per year.... that hurt.  In his mind, I am dead.  So no, sadly, in my case he never returned or even tried to be civil.  It has been 10 years since it started, divorced 5. It is very sad.  I have built a new life and from the outside it looks very successful and fun.  On the inside, I am still a shell of a human, but I fake it well!!

[nah]

Old timer here that doesn't post anymore.
If the sad sausage ever pops out of his hole, I promise I will let you all know.
In the early days, I was obsessed with this site. I would scan through the pages looking for the reconciliation pages. “Stayed” was here at the time, and others, their stories gave me hope. I needed that hope to breathe. I was so 100% sure he would come back. Everyone in my life told me he would come back. Luckily for me, he never did.

[Atari25]

What I benefitted most from was the support of others. Honestly, HS was very different then.  I also needed to discuss what was causing MLC...some of those discussions were pretty wild.  But they helped me to get to the place where I was ready to accept. My faith also plays a big part in my hope and how I chose to treat my husband.

When I first joined HS years ago, I must have ready every thread with a female MLCer going back to early years so I could both understand and have some hope that my marriage could eventually be saved.   This helped me get through the toughest times during the first two years when family and friends in my life truly didn't have a clue.

Years later, I don't have the desire or really need to update as much.  The truth is my MLC XW is still a mess and not much has changed.   I felt I was telling the same story every month and got to the point where it felt like Ground Hog day.

What I hope for myself is that I continue down my journey for healing and never let what my XW did to me or my family cause bitterness in my life.   I accepted what has happened and am just moving forward.

I don't need to know now why my XW did what she did nor what has happened to others.   Just hope that all LBS here in the forum find peace with their new lives with or without their their MLC partner.   

HF

I have a feeling I am following you 2 years behind. I still think my marriage has a chance to be saved but I am losing some hope over time. While she hasn't pushed forward with anything, she is as confusing and weird as ever.

I still wake up every night at 2-3 am and start  thinking about it all. It's truly a bad nightmare.

[gman242]

Just throwing my two cents in here.. I think that at the root of it, the MLC'er got that way through being at some level, avoidant attached and for that reason alone, they are very, very unlikely to take an responsibility in repairing the relationship.

We all more or less agree that these crisis happen through FOO issues ad trauma and our spouses have spent the better parts of their lives avoiding dealing with their pain and issues and we have no reason or expectation to think that it will change in the future. The fact that many of these MLCers end right back up into situations they claim they wanted out of with us is proof enough I think or even the constant replay. They're so used to keeping on a mask, keeping everyone in the dark about their inner issues and when the jig is up, one way or the other, they just move on and continue the charade.

That's literally what happened to me. When my ex and I first got together, I woke up in bed alone to find her sitting in the dark holding a knife to her arm crying. Years later, I realized now I caused her crisis by quiet quitting my marriage. So she began cheating, got pregnant and got herself situated with OM and then she tried to kill herself again. I went an visited her in the crisis center. She was a crying wreck, sorry for everything that had happened, telling me everything was a mistake and that she didn't belong there and then when visiting time was up, she literally shrugged it off, became "normal" and walked back into the center. The transformation was mind-blowing and truly revealing of this kind of "mask" that they can wear. Looking back now, it was obvious, how many times she moved from family member to family member, job to job, boyfriend to boyfriend and so on, as she was exposed for who she was.

That was my situation, but anyway, my advice is is they want to go, let them. You focus on you. Live. Live the life you want to, that you should have, that you've always yearned for.. whatever it is, do it, be it. Don't let regret, fear or shame hold you back or keep you holding on. None of that stopped them from leaving. It shouldn't stop you from living either.

[in it]

I don't post I read and address wherever I might see abuse happening. In my humble opinion some LBS put up with way too much crap from the Mlcer.
I first posted in 2010.
I've moved on.
Total NC for 11 years.