Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OffRoad on November 06, 2019, 01:09:55 PM
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Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.
That ^^^^^^^
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Jack, I'm not SS but I'll try to answer your question.
Not trusting other people is completely justifiable. There are a lot of untrustworthy people in the world and trusting an untrustworthy person is just going to get you hurt. Great answer, huh?
The secret is to use baby steps. Try trusting somebody with something small and relatively insignificant. If that works out, move it up a level. Keep doing that and eventually you'll learn whether or not that person deserves your trust.
Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.
Along these lines maybe you are attracted to the wrong people.
Ones that are untrustworthy.
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Choosing to trust is a decision, I don't think it happens on it's own.
You have to decide to do it, and then do it. Takes effort and plenty of it, and we have to be vulnerable otherwise where is the risk?
I don't think it's healthy to clam up and protect ourselves. That's just a slow death.
I think it's ok to realize that people can hurt you, and it's ok to be hurt. That's life. At some point we find people who don't hurt us, and hopefully that's our spouse but if not..... that's ok. I think people feel guilty when they are hurt.... like they could prevent it or something. That's not true. People hurt people, happens everyday. There's nothing new under the sun. It's happened before, it's happening now, it will happen again. Nothing can change that. What we can do is keep moving forward. Take your hits, claim them as your own and keep going. No shame in saying and knowing you've been knocked around. You're alive. You're good. Nothing has stopped you. Keep moving forward, put out that hand and see who reaches out and grabs it.
-SS
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The belief that trust is earned, not given is not necessarily clamming up and protecting oneself. It kind of sounded like that is what you meant, SS. Did I misinterpret? Think about it, do you trust that no one is going to make a mistake and come into your lane when you are driving, or are you aware of what is going on around you and guage who is driving erratically and who is not? (I'm hoping the latter) Do you trust every person you meet immediately with your innermost thoughts and desires? (I'm hoping the answer is no).
All day long we make judgments. Will my coworker stab me in the back yet again or should I trust that he won't this time? Should I step out in front of that truck traveling at 50 mph and trust he's going to stop? Do I trust this complete stranger with the access code for my door? The notion that trust is earned is not some deep thing. It's what we DO. At least most of us vet people before we blindly trust. IMO, that's a survival instinct. Trusting the untrustworthy could get you killed.
I'll trust when i see the behavior that shows me trustworthiness. I have no desire to set myself up so that I can be knocked down so I can get back up. I'm good with reaching out to a select few that have shown trustworthiness and are less likely to knock me down. But to each their own. We all get to choose how we want to live. I don't get joy out of trying 200 flavors every month, 175 of which I don't like. Some people do. I get joy out of enjoying the 25 flavors I know I like, and maybe trying a new one every once in a while. It doesn't make either way right or wrong, it just is.
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And a timely example of a post from Chump Lady on this very issue...https://www.chumplady.com/2019/11/how-do-i-know-friends-wont-betray-me/
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Jack, I'm not SS but I'll try to answer your question.
Not trusting other people is completely justifiable. There are a lot of untrustworthy people in the world and trusting an untrustworthy person is just going to get you hurt. Great answer, huh?
The secret is to use baby steps. Try trusting somebody with something small and relatively insignificant. If that works out, move it up a level. Keep doing that and eventually you'll learn whether or not that person deserves your trust.
Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.
Along these lines maybe you are attracted to the wrong people.
Ones that are untrustworthy.
maybe he is but how can you tell if somebody is trustworthy or not? You cannot see it and you certainly canot smell or taste it. Untrustworthy people are also good liars and actors. That is one thing that we have learnt the hard way.
Fact is, EVERYBODY lies and you cannot trust anybody 100%! Sounds hard maybe but its true.
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Hi OffRoad :)
I totally get the survival instinct, the desire to vet, self-protection. That all makes sense. What I was getting at is that trust is vulnerability, and that vulnerability is is a choice..... hence to trust (a leap of faith with someone at some level) is a choice.
I'm a very open person, very trusting, very honest, very kind. I have a lot of friends who have been burned and burned bad (co-workers mostly). Some are very angry, hurt, and closed off (emotionally). Some of these people have been that way a very long time (decades).
When I meet someone like this (normally thru work), I make it a point to get to know them, befriend them, kinda force my way in. They are a challenge, and I like having really good connections with people.
I've been at my current job for 18 years (love it) and it's a stressful, emotionally draining, high tempo, high stakes place to work. There are so many relationship and personality issue people there (LOL!!!).
Anyway.... like I said, I find the burned, the socially awkward, the mean, the ones others will not play with....... gaining their trust and friendship takes months if I'm lucky, I can't say how many took years and years to reach (a lot). What I found with all the multi-year people is: They're hurt, they're scared, they can't trust. It's this way without exception..... every single time. All of them have some kind of relationship "event" in their past. It takes so long of dropping by to say hi, of asking if I can do something for them, asking their opinion on things and making them laugh.... to finally help them know I'm ok, and safe. Then they become the strongest of friends, great connections, positive feelings. The thing is, most people won't do what I do.... they just leave these people alone, and the people left alone are happy to stew, until someone reaches out and they find how great it is to find that people aren't all out to get them. We are social creatures, and aren't meant to be alone. They forget what it's like to have connections and they grow cold & isolated.
To reach out and try is trust, and it's blind. It'd be so much easier to say "this person is too much work, too much effort, I'm going to leave them alone like everyone else". I can only speak about what I've seen and lived, but I know it's true. It's so wonderful to see someone who had been closed off for so long, peek their head out.... and before you know it, they have several co-workers who are friends. Their lives and happiness drastically change..... it's beautiful. That is my joy: To see people happy and healthy. It does require trust and taking a chance on people again.
So when I hear about people shutting down, protecting, clamming up.... I equate it with the people I've run in to during life. The ones I have chosen to work at and show "it's ok". If they had had a little trust on their own, right front the start, they'd have been better...... faster..... years faster. The people who protect themselves are almost always wonderful and beautiful.... and make the best of friends (I think for life actually), and so they are my favorites. That's what I meant ;)
-SS
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Jack, I'm not SS but I'll try to answer your question.
Not trusting other people is completely justifiable. There are a lot of untrustworthy people in the world and trusting an untrustworthy person is just going to get you hurt. Great answer, huh?
The secret is to use baby steps. Try trusting somebody with something small and relatively insignificant. If that works out, move it up a level. Keep doing that and eventually you'll learn whether or not that person deserves your trust.
Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.
Along these lines maybe you are attracted to the wrong people.
Ones that are untrustworthy.
maybe he is but how can you tell if somebody is trustworthy or not? You cannot see it and you certainly canot smell or taste it. Untrustworthy people are also good liars and actors. That is one thing that we have learnt the hard way.
Fact is, EVERYBODY lies and you cannot trust anybody 100%! Sounds hard maybe but its true.
Oh there's soooo much in this (love it!!!!).
So is the problem that others aren't trustworthy? Or that you have a problem trusting? Don't take that as a dig or insult.... it's not.
Everyone here has been hurt and hurt bad by the person they should have been able to trust the most. So what is the response? "People are not trustworthy. I can/will be hurt again if I trust. Time to vet. Time to make them earn my trust". This is a natural, human response. Everybody does it, it's a reaction, not a choice (it's not a real choice!!!!).
Think back to when you met your future spouse...... did they have to earn your trust? Or did you pursue and give it freely? If you did..... why would now be any different? The rules haven't changed, only we have.
Think about all those thoughts.....
People are liars = I cannot trust
People are actors = I cannot trust
People stab in the back = I cannot trust
Cannot trust anyone 100% = I cannot trust
Untrustworthy people can kill you = I cannot trust
All of it... all the rationalizations are the protection reaction. It's the hand getting burned on the stove and pulling it back. It's not a choice.
Trust is risk, otherwise it wouldn't be hard to give. What is the risk? To be hurt..... again. What is the hurt? To show yourself again and be rejected. How deep and personal is that? It's huge.
It's the opening of the possibility that you aren't good, that you don't have value, that you are flawed, and that someone or people in general won't like you.
But here's the thing: Everyone else has those same thoughts, same fears, same insecurities.
Here's the other thing: You are wonderful, beautiful, special, one of a kind and great. Why hide it? Fear?
All the connections you have, even the one with your spouse before they flipped out had the ingredient of trust. It's essential. Without it, there isn't a connection. Did the ingredient go bad? No!!! The recipe did: the final product. Cook again!!!! You are delicious!!!! :P
-SS
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I agree with Standing Strong... My view on this is very similar. Vulnerability is the power behind all great things - love, creativity, joy of life etc. By denying vulnerability, I would just punish myself. Thus I've knowingly worked myself a belief that if I some day reconcile, I will allow myself to trust as much/blindly as before. And if I go with new relationship, same thing there. Anything else would just sabotage my future life, make it lesser because of fear... This is not much different from feeling resentment. I would be drinking poison, hoping other person to die. But of course other person cannot feel my vulnerability, or my trust . Same as with every other feeling.
Just my 2cents worth,
Alvin
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Jack, I'm not SS but I'll try to answer your question.
Not trusting other people is completely justifiable. There are a lot of untrustworthy people in the world and trusting an untrustworthy person is just going to get you hurt. Great answer, huh?
The secret is to use baby steps. Try trusting somebody with something small and relatively insignificant. If that works out, move it up a level. Keep doing that and eventually you'll learn whether or not that person deserves your trust.
Trust isn't given. Trust is earned.
Along these lines maybe you are attracted to the wrong people.
Ones that are untrustworthy.
maybe he is but how can you tell if somebody is trustworthy or not? You cannot see it and you certainly canot smell or taste it. Untrustworthy people are also good liars and actors. That is one thing that we have learnt the hard way.
Fact is, EVERYBODY lies and you cannot trust anybody 100%! Sounds hard maybe but its true.
This is a really sensitive topic for me and it's something I've been thinking a lot about. Having dated online, it's really given me food for thought about the signals I send out into the world.
I tend to keep meeting the same types over and over. Maybe it's because in being online, it only attracts the same types of people, so there's that. But I also wonder how much of that is due to me and the way I present myself.
I agree 100%, people can be great actors and liars, however if you keep meeting the same type of person, how much of that is due to the people out there or the universe that sends them to you? why aren't you meeting other types and so on?
I think part of it is the signals you send out. I think I ooze sincerity and that's something most people don't find attractive. I've just come to the conclusion that most people prefer not to be emotionally inmate with someone. I think people are more attracted to a partner that is always busy with hobbies, taking kids to sports games, being social and so on. I also think that's why people are so unhappy and marriages don't last. At some point, staying busy gets old and you find yourself unhappy with your life and your partner.
I think a lot of the people on here are intelligent, kind and empathetic and sympathetic. That's why we're here and not on the chump lady site, to tie that in. I think that's mostly attractive to someone who doesn't have the emotional intelligence and sense of self that we do. I think that largely explains why I only seem to meet people that either clingers or people who push me away. I have yet to meet an even tempered, stable person.
I'm glad I dated for a bit as it taught me to recognize red flags earlier and to say no to people and to stop being with unhealthy people for longer than was necessary. However, it hasn't changed the fact that i can't seem to meet anyone else.
At this point, I'm at a loss. I can't change who I am or how I am. And honestly, it feels bad.. being told what a great guy you are (and knowing it), but only being able to attract unstable nutcases and watching all the other cute moms chase after guys who contribute nothing to the relationship other than throwing a paycheck on the counter.
I think people are just happier with chaos. I think people are attracted to other people because of the lifestyles they offer and how "busy" or active they seem and not for the qualities they hold as people and will contribute to the relationship. I think that's what's behind the old "girls like jerks" and "nice guys finish last" sayings.
I'm happy.. I don't need to be running off with dudes to the bar, the gym or working on someone else's car all the time to be happy. I'm a where ever you go, there you are person. I have things I do, hobbies and so on, but I don't have that energy or passion that people find attractive. I think I look boring honestly. I'm anything but.. I've just learned to pace myself and I value living in the moment.
On the flip side, I'm sure that's what attracted xw to me when we met. I was always doing something crazy and creative. Playing concerts, doing weird Halloween events and stuff..
I dunno.. I don't have all the answers, but I think people like us are genuine and that's only attractive to people that aren't. We can keep saying no to them, but it gets old and it hurts when we wonder all the time when the universe will send us someone who doesn't suck..
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Vulnerability and trust are two different things. Vulnerability says I'm going to see if you are worthy of my time or if we can connect or if I can help you in any way. You do not have to trust to be vulnerable, just be willing to accept whatever happens. You don't have to trust any one else. Now if you want to say you have to trust yourself, that you can handle whatever comes to you, that makes sense to me.
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This is such a beautiful discussion about trust. We all came to this point with different trust styles based on personality and life experiences, it’s so hard to generalise! For me, I have only a few close people I trust, and I trust them completely. MLC has been a painful loss of innocence for me. I’ve thought about it a lot though, I could close myself off from trusting anyone, or try to be true to myself and not his choices ruin what it special about me. I’m a work in progress.
Going back to the original discussion about reconciliation likelihood, I wanted to add my 2cents. I agree with many others that situations vary and there is no one path that leads to reconciliation, not staying not leaving. Your MLCer ultimately has to find his/her own way out. I took a slightly unusual path in that I left my MLCer. It’s possible to say I dropped the bomb. He had been monstering for a good year or more, it’s been a mess. He increasingly was behaving like a single man who did not want any responsibility at home or to be part of our family. He was irresponsible with money! Well, to cut a long story short, I got a new job far away and took our kids and left! This was before I knew about OW and he never asked for divorce either (she was textbook affair down and had been in place 8 months before I left), he was just checked out. For me leaving spares me and children a lot of damage I think. It took him one year from our leaving for him to crash and burn, dump OW And humbly arrive on our doorstop and is recovering with us, totally engaged with kids and our life. It’s still a slow process. One thing to know is that I was not bound by any legality issues such as property rights or even traveling. He gave me no money! I could stand on my own fortunately, it’s been tight but possible. He knows I can survive fine without him, yep very aware of that.
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Vulnerability and trust are two different things. Vulnerability says I'm going to see if you are worthy of my time or if we can connect or if I can help you in any way. You do not have to trust to be vulnerable, just be willing to accept whatever happens. You don't have to trust any one else. Now if you want to say you have to trust yourself, that you can handle whatever comes to you, that makes sense to me.
This is soooo interesting....... so you're saying that you can be vulnerable without trust? That would be a very interesting thought to me as I always believed in the inverse.... you must trust to be vulnerable. If I don't trust someone, they can't hurt me because I'm not vulnerable (that's just me).
Could you explain more?
-SS
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I think being vulnerable, means being open and emotionally available, but I also think there's a limit until trust has been established.
For me, for instance, if I'm on a date with someone, I look to see how much they're willing to reveal about themselves or if they willingly offer information without being prompted.
A good example is explaining how xw and I came to be divorced. I can comfortably explain what happened and my thoughts and feelings about that. Someone who is equally vulnerable would be be able to do the same and would offer it willingly. It helps build trust and establishes a repoir. Someone who isn't willing to be vulnerable wouldn't say personal things or explain or explore them with you.
Granted you to want to keep all that on a shallow level. You don't want to go off the deep end, because I don't think that's appropriate early on in any kind of friendship or relationship. I think there's a scale of depth and intensity you're willing to show someone else that grows with time.
Someone has to be willing to vulnerable early on, but it takes two, from thereafter to build and grow the trust. Two people have to participate. When you have only one, you don't have trust. You also have to be careful, because there are people that can make you feel validated and like you have trust and vulnerability, but you don't.
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Good answer, Gman. ;D
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That makes a lot of sense. Very cool G-Man 8)
Not how I operate, but that makes a lot of sense.
-SS
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Thank you all for your contributions to my thread, it’s been very enlightening and I’ve established now that Wallowers can be more difficult to handle than runaway Mlcers because of their proximity. Both types behave inappropriately and both types monster and have affairs.
The only differences I see after our discussions is for some as yet unknown reason they don’t want to leave which is mystifying.There have been many other interesting conversations that stimulate me and I hope you too.
Kind regards
Jack
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Vulnerability is risk when you can’t control the outcome.
To build trust requires vulnerability in small measure over and over until trust is established.
Furthermore vulnerability is never measured in the length of disclosure.
It may be really vulnerable to say I’m scared or I don’t know something.....vulnerability is about how close and person the information being shared is.
The proper response to vulnerability is always validation, first and foremost
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I think at it's core, vulnerability is more about revealing and the exposure of ones inner self to other people. I don't think that's related to outcomes, because one may not be intended or needed when one is vulnerable.
It's important to validate people when they're vulnerable yes. It's considered socially strange not to, but that goes back to what I was saying that someone may be validating your vulnerability and not being vulnerable themselves. People that do that can often inflate your self esteem with the person while they are also collecting details about you and your life while they reveal none about themselves.
I've found that people that do that are more likely to use what you say against you, since they hold all the cards and you know nothing about them.
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I think definition of vulnerability varies a lot based upon the perspective. Personally I'm huge fan of Brene Brown's books/teachings.
For me vulnerability is learning to put my minds walls and defences down conciously. Trust is basically just one of those defenses our minds have. The thing that controls our trust (and all other minds defences) is fear; and I think most here have learned the hard way that very few good things come when and if we let fear run our mind.
It is possible for anyone to learn vulnerability (the same way we can change any of our thinking). It takes a shift in mindset (basically reworking those old fear based beliefs), it takes time, and it takes certain kind of courage. But it is also very awesome and rewarding IMHO.
Alvin
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I would like to trust again but I’m too vulnerable to do it. I’m with gmans thoughts about being nice and sincere and attracting the wrong sort for me. I have a plan though I’ve stopped bothering with toxic people completely in real life, trouble is there’s no one around now.
I’m going to have to take the leap of faith sometime I suppose but honestly I bet I get chumped again. With this way of thinking I’m setting myself up for a fall I know but the tragedy of MLC has left a permanent emotional barrier for me to cross and I have not found a way past it as yet and it has actually got worse over time. Am I alone in this way of thinking or do others feel this way.
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Jack,
Trust is not jumping into the deep end of the pool with both feet. It is a thing you build slowly over time with actions and deeds and words. It requires consistency.
Vulnerability is anything you disclose that requires risk without the ability to control the outcome. Not the amount of the disclosure.
So if you have established trust in small things then I may be vulnerable and share something with you...and see if you are worthy of trust.
Prior I used to trust without much thought....now trust is something to be earned, slowly but surely.
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Jack,
Trust is not jumping into the deep end of the pool with both feet. It is a thing you build slowly over time with actions and deeds and words. It requires consistency.
Vulnerability is anything you disclose that requires risk without the ability to control the outcome. Not the amount of the disclosure.
So if you have established trust in small things then I may be vulnerable and share something with you...and see if you are worthy of trust.
Prior I used to trust without much thought....now trust is something to be earned, slowly but surely.
Yes I agree with all of this, it just takes the first tentative steps to try it out and that’s where I freeze unfortunately, never had a problem in the past but MLC trauma cuts deep emotionally especially if your a sensitive type to start with.
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Yes I agree with all of this, it just takes the first tentative steps to try it out and that’s where I freeze unfortunately, never had a problem in the past but MLC trauma cuts deep emotionally especially if your a sensitive type to start with.
Yes we are definitely damaged goods right now. That is why they say that we all need to heal before jumping into a new R. That you are afraid tells me you aren't ready...like so many of us. Like most of us to be honest. I firmly believe that if/when the right person comes along (MLCer or other), that we will know it. But the scars do run deep and we are more guarded for it. Doesn't mean the damage is permanent. Just that we know things now. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And truly the main person we have to learn to trust is ourselves.
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I know I am for sure not ready to trust anyone new. I have noticed that I have kept everyone new at a distance this past year and only let my tried and true friends in.
It takes time to heal enough to be vulnerable, and I know for me, trust will have to be built brick by brick.
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Rebuilding trust is an extremely daunting challenge. What was utterly destroyed in a 2 minute revelation will take years to restore ...if ever. I do not believe trust is a decision. It is about observing consistent and repeated ( maybe a thousand times) behaviors, words ,promises that are kept, doing what you say you are going to do, honesty ..well, the list could go on. It is doing these things over and over and over that could lay a foundation to give a person the gift of trusting them. Its hard hard work. It is never failing to do these things or you risk starting all over again.
Trust to me is like a pie cut into 8 pieces. I trust my husband will NEVER go near OW again. I do not trust him fully with money . I trust he will NEVER cause harm to our children as long as he breathes. I do not trust that everything he says is the truth. I do trust he is 100% committed to our marriage ...but I do not trust he will ever be "emotionally trustworthy " in terms of expressing his true "self" . I guess that means vulnerable and emotionally open. I will never trust he will tell me how he "feels"...and that is a hard way to live. My trust "pie" will never be whole. There will always and forever be pieces missing. So I have learned to cautiously trust some parts , but other parts require trust ...and then verify.
I have made a purposeful decision to never trust fully again. I do not WANT to. I do not strive for it , I do not work to trust and I do not feel I ever will. It makes me feel safe this way. The magic is in trusting myself fully, completely and without fear. No matter what another person does , I trust that I can handle it, I am stronger now and I will be ok.
When my husband broke my trust in him , the entire world changed . I did not trust anybody . I did not "fit" in the world anymore, I was extremely suspicious and hypersensitive to any sign that "might" be a lie or a betrayal ...in every single person I had a relationship with. The absolute worst fight I ever had with my sister was because I had a very extreme reaction to what I saw as a betrayal. It was not ...but seeing things thru a wound changes everything. It is extrodinarily difficult to manage many relationship in my life now. I get a lump in my throat when I type this ...loosing trust in someone that you believed would always and forever "have your back" is one of a human beings greatest tragedies. They know not the permanent injury they cause to another .
I understand that there are times in life that we need to stop pursuing "change" and move to utter acceptance and decide if that is where we can live. My husband was so deeply traumatised as a child, so betrayed , abused and abandoned that he NEVER developed the capacity to trust . He was weaned on fear and terror and unpredictability ...trust never existed as it often does not in children of extreme abuse and trauma. He does not trust ME . He has no capacity to trust ...yet ( so they tell me) Its hard to learn these things in counselling about childhood trauma , brain development, emotional maturity that is stunted, deep shame and broken identity . He has "preformed " his way thru life ...and I may never know who he truly is . An inability to be vulnerable, show himself, be emotionally transparent and take risks...that I am a "safe" person may never happen. But it might . Deciding if that is "enough" ..is the question at hand. Ohhhh….the places I have been in the past 5 years. Hard hard places.
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I would like to trust again but I’m too vulnerable to do it. I’m with gmans thoughts about being nice and sincere and attracting the wrong sort for me. I have a plan though I’ve stopped bothering with toxic people completely in real life, trouble is there’s no one around now.
I’m going to have to take the leap of faith sometime I suppose but honestly I bet I get chumped again. With this way of thinking I’m setting myself up for a fall I know but the tragedy of MLC has left a permanent emotional barrier for me to cross and I have not found a way past it as yet and it has actually got worse over time. Am I alone in this way of thinking or do others feel this way.
This is where the trust in yourself comes in. Can you handle whatever the outcome if you put yourself out there? If I ask someone out and they say no, can I handle it? If I try to start up a conversation and they shut me down, can I handle it? If I go out on a coffee date and really like the person, but they don't like me, can I handle it? None of those has anything to do with trusting someone else.
Vulnerability and trust are two different things. Vulnerability says I'm going to see if you are worthy of my time or if we can connect or if I can help you in any way. You do not have to trust to be vulnerable, just be willing to accept whatever happens. You don't have to trust any one else. Now if you want to say you have to trust yourself, that you can handle whatever comes to you, that makes sense to me.
This is soooo interesting....... so you're saying that you can be vulnerable without trust? That would be a very interesting thought to me as I always believed in the inverse.... you must trust to be vulnerable. If I don't trust someone, they can't hurt me because I'm not vulnerable (that's just me).
Could you explain more?
-SS
Yesterday, I had my kid's old playset removed (it was very large). The company called and said they'd remove it. I didn't pay them in advance, I waited until it was removed because they had not yet earned my trust, but I did make myself vulnerable by allowing them onto my property when I had no idea who these people were, if they were in fact reputable or would do a proper job. I didn't trust they would do a proper job, they had to show me.
They did an excellent job, and before I paid them (and eventually tipped them), I asked if they had enough room for an old lawnmower and an old freestanding punching bag (get one for anger management, really) and how much extra it would cost. They gave a fair cost and I agreed and wrote the check. As one of them went to arrange space in the truck and the other loaded up the tools, I started to see if I could move some debris out of the way. The man came back and said "Please, I have taken your money, I will do the entire job and that includes getting the lawnmower out of the debris." That man just earned my trust that he would do a good job,and he earned a good tip. He and his partner were surprised and pleased, I was surprised and pleased, and they are looking forward to my calling again (because I still have a lot of junk to go). I am looking forward to seeing them again, because I know they will do what they say and it will be a good job.
For me, this is true in all aspects of m y life. I trust ME to handle what comes my way. I don't trust or expect someone I do not know and have no experience with to do what is in my best interest because they have absolutely zero idea what I want or what might be in my best interest until I tell them what I want or need. If they cannot manage that, no trust is given that they can: keep their word, do what is asked, know when to apologize and say " I thought I could do this but I can't", come up with their own plan that might be better, anything. We do not know each other, there is no trust YET.
What kind of trust do you have in the individual you have just met if you ask them out? That they will say yes? Turn you down with courtesy? Be a decent human being? That isn't trust, it's hope, because you don't know what the person's ability is. You don't know them. If you do know them, then how vulnerable are you if you know what they will do? Not much risk there, you have already established some level of trust based on past interactions.
This is not to say that some people can't have blind trust that everyone is wonderful and nothing bad will ever happen to them (I don't know anyone for whom that consistently works out, but there could be someone). I have my Pollyanna Offroad days. You CAN trust in someone else's ability even if you don't know if they are capable at all. It's a choice for sure, but an emotional one, not a logical one.
Vulnerable, to me is I reach out in Friendship. How the other person reacts is how I gauge how much I can trust them.
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And guys, I don't think sincerity is the off putting quality. I'd be more inclined to think that frustration, desperation or neediness would be more off-putting than sincerity, unless the "sincerity" is peppered with judgment (only you will know if you feel that way or not). Please take this in the spirit it is intended, the attitude that all the women you meet are losers comes across when you meet people you might want to connect with. Maybe re-framing the attitude to "I haven't had very good luck yet, but someone that is right for me will turn up." could help a bit. Just a suggestion, I certainly haven't found a romantic partner that is right for me, so what do I know?
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I have made a purposeful decision to never trust fully again. I do not WANT to. I do not strive for it , I do not work to trust and I do not feel I ever will. It makes me feel safe this way. The magic is in trusting myself fully, completely and without fear. No matter what another person does , I trust that I can handle it, I am stronger now and I will be ok.
Exactly that.
You, Barbiedoll, are vulnerable every day of your life with your H because there are pieces of the pie you are not sure you can trust. Maybe one day your H will show with actions that you can trust him with money, but that will be hard earned by him. And since it is your life, being wary is a survival skill based on past behaviors. But where you stand now, your trust in in your own strength is what allows you to be vulnerable, imo. You control yourself. Hard won and well done.
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Very interesting....... I must be some sort of mutant :o ;) 8)
I trust everyone...... when I'm let down, that trust diminishes and can get close to zero, but never zero.
When someone lets me down, or breaks that trust, then I feel I need to forgive them for hurting me or letting me down. Hopefully in time they will work their way back up. Usually yes, once in a while no.
If they do come around, and I've forgiven them...... I can't remember the transgression. *poof*
And a lot of the time, I have to make the 1st move to heal something that I didn't break.
Example: There's this lady I work with...... and she can be a nightmare. She was borderline on hatred of me..... for no real reason. Some sort of projection. My team hated her. My/her contemporaries don't like her..... no one likes her. Untrustworthy, 1st to point fingers at others, mean, insecure.... the whole nine yards. I think most were just waiting for her to fall on her face and be removed from the position.
I'm her equal.... I run a division, and she runs another one. She isn't over me and I'm not over her. We have the same boss. I've seen her attack our boss (to the bosses face).
So I looked at this person and thought to myself "here's someone in pain, scared, no friends...... what is life like for her?". So I took her out to coffee, out of the blue. Told her I was sorry for whatever I did in the past and that I wanted a new future. That I would make her a priority in my world, and help her when she needed it. She responded.... positively..... and we tried a new start. I trust her. After all the nasty things she's said, and all the mean things she's done, and all the blame she's thrown my way (and my team's way), I trust her. Not 100% when we were at the lowest, but I trust her now. She has my full benefit of the doubt. She can let me down again, she can blame me unjustly, or say something negative.... that's her choice. I choose to see the good and the potential good in her, and I'll help her get there and be that.
After talking with her, taking her to coffee and extending the olive branch..... amazing things happened: My boss was so happy that I stepped forward and solved her (my bosses) problem. I talked to our contemporaries and we all started including her. All my contemporaries said they had serious problems with this person and they can written her off.... but because I had taken that leap of faith, they would too. We all go to lunch together now, and the mean woman is trying to soften. It's not easy for her, it's a process..... but everything she's working on, and everyone she works with, sees a change. Why? A choice to trust. She could have refused me, rejected my offer, been ugly.... but the offer shocked her. The decision to trust was unexpected, and everyone watching was like :o :o :o but it worked.
She is moving at baby steps, I'm earning her trust slowly.... and that's fine. Most people are that way. No problem with that. She must have been burned bad somewhere in the past to be like that. That's ok, she'll grow. Is what I did being vulnerable? Yes, but only because I gave trust, wiped the slate clean, fresh start in my eyes. She can do what's right or what's wrong and that's her choice. Has nothing to do with me. I find that if I trust 100%, that comes across in speech, body language, intuition, whatever. What I give I expect in return (eventually, they can move slowly) but what I give is evident and people respond to that. Unguarded. Honest. Caring. Genuine. It has a profound accept on people, especially those that seek to hurt. They're just hurting, sad, unloved people.
Loved the explanations.... thought I'd give mine too. ;)
-SS
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Yes I agree with all of this, it just takes the first tentative steps to try it out and that’s where I freeze unfortunately, never had a problem in the past but MLC trauma cuts deep emotionally especially if your a sensitive type to start with.
Yes we are definitely damaged goods right now. That is why they say that we all need to heal before jumping into a new R. That you are afraid tells me you aren't ready...like so many of us. Like most of us to be honest. I firmly believe that if/when the right person comes along (MLCer or other), that we will know it. But the scars do run deep and we are more guarded for it. Doesn't mean the damage is permanent. Just that we know things now. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And truly the main person we have to learn to trust is ourselves.
Very true Keep it together, your words are my thoughts and although people might think the passage of time has healed your wounds they can’t see deep down inside where the damage has left its mark.
I have tried everything I can think of to fill the void I feel and start again but it just doesn’t feel right. Although divorced for six years I still feel married and loyal to my vows.
The last year I have started to think of the good times we had in the past and savour the moments of triumph and pain, lasting memories......
Ultimately I not only lost my marriage I also lost my best friend and it hurts so deeply it prevents further progress in my healing.
I constantly search for the reasons that lead to this situation in an attempt to understand and find closure at the very least, but the more I look the further away it gets. No one else measures up, I cant replace her and I will always miss her.... she meant so much to me...
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I am truly sorry for your loss, Jack, and all the painful emotions that go with it. In many ways, it is like a bereavement isn't it? Maybe even worse bc it causes us to doubt ourselves so much...but I have found it helpful when I am struggling with how to build a new life to consider what I would be doing if my h had died.
Imho there are two sides to trust as other says. Trusting that the world is full of good people who do not want to hurt you. Trusting yourself that you can handle the things of life and other things that might hurt or disappoint you or make you feel sad. The first can be proved through gentle trial and error; the second is more about understanding what you need to continue to heal and feel more confident that you can trust yourself.
There are plenty of different ways to live a good, healthy, happy life and not all of them depend on GAL medals or dating or having a huge circle of friends. Maybe a doorway through this stuff is to look at your life, the things you like and some things that aren't quite as you want them, and focus on those...so you feel better and stronger...then you trust yourself more. And you trust that when you want to feel good more than you fear feeling bad, things will shift in you. That is my approach anyway bc it feels like it respects that - no matter what others think - I was truly devastated by this period of my life and rebuilding takes more time than people who haven't been here think.
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This is such a timely discussion actually. I have been contemplating similar things for a week or so.
Trusting, kind, empathetic people will always attract the untrustworthy.
The same need we have to fix and help people, is similar to their need to obtain whatever they can from us. You can sense they need help, a little understanding...the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if we are that person, if we just give them a chance...
The other side of course is that they can sense that you will give them what they want, with very little effort on their part. You feel like you are helping, that you are making a difference...but in reality you are handing them everything they want.
I for one am a person who will ''clam up to protect myself''. I retreat into a distant safe space, inspect and assess my emotions and feelings...and repackage whatever is not needed back into a box for the back of the cupboard. Then when I emerge I am more logical, no longer running on passion and emotion. I can think things through better, without chasing things like love that leads you into emotional traps.
For me the clamming up part is essential because if you don't retreat to your space you can't stop feeling the emotions.
In terms of giving or earning trust it is both. We tend to meet someone and have a gut feeling, or at least I do. Generally I know if someone is relatively trustworthy pretty quickly...and based on that you slowly build or lose trust as you interact...depending on your shared values.
But people are inherently selfish. No matter how much trust is built, some will leave regardless. If they are of the variety mentioned before, they will take all that they can with them. That is just the way it is. I know every person in the world can't be like that, but I also know they must be very very rare.
Ss said '' Trust is a risk, otherwise it wouldn't be hard to give. What is the risk? To be hurt again. What is the hurt? To show yourself again and be rejected.''
That right there is 100% spot on. How many daggers to the back can you take for being you? I suppose that depends on everyone's tolerance levels. How long each betrayal takes to heal. How much of you, you showed the person before they did it. Varying levels of pain, leading to varying levels of mistrust...leading to varying levels of rejection of self.
The stranger who flips you off never hurts you as much as your ex spouse flipping you off. One has a higher impact, because of the intimacy shared of yourself.
Gman ''I think people are just happier with chaos.'' I think I had a similar discussion with a HS member in Tuscany about this. Some people are just addicted to the rollercoaster, and if they get on a steady normal relationship they do not feel at home. They always feel a piece is missing.
Gman ''We keep saying no to them, but it gets old and it hurts when we wonder all the time when the universe will send us someone who doesn't suck''. I think the better question is...are you so busy looking at the chaos rollercoaster you are used to, that you can not see the person that may be standing right in front of you?
Finding Joy ''Trust will have to be built brick by brick''
I wrote about all this a few months back. Didn't think I would trust anyone. Let anyone in. Feel all those emotions again. It was impossible. Then the Universe slapped me in the face and told me I was wrong. You will meet someone that will make all these statements not true. I think it is a very rare thing to find, as so far I have only met the one who I felt okay with...but I guess the moral of the story is we think we will never trust again, never love again...never never never...and then it will just show up.
As to what Barbie said about the rebuilding of trust after it is so fully destroyed...well I believe some people have that within them. Some people can forgive a betrayal, clear the ground, and build again slowly. Personally..after so much damage, so much pain, I think it is easier for me to get a new plot of land and start something completely different. But that is how I have always been.
As for what Barbie said about ''I did not trust anybody. I did not fit in the world any more''. That is where I have always been. I always felt like I do not belong in the world around me. Until I find someone who stands out from the crowd...and then I feel like maybe I do belong somewhere. But that is a dangerous place to be. Only feeling at home with a person. Because that person can always leave...and then you are drifting alone again in a world you don't belong to.
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Quote from Mortesbride
As for what Barbie said about ''I did not trust anybody. I did not fit in the world any more''. That is where I have always been. I always felt like I do not belong in the world around me. Until I find someone who stands out from the crowd...and then I feel like maybe I do belong somewhere. But that is a dangerous place to be. Only feeling at home with a person. Because that person can always leave...and then you are drifting alone again in a world you don't belong to.
I can completely identify with your thoughts on this Mortesbride.
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Thank you Treasur, it is akin to a bereavement. In some aspects it’s even worse as they are still alive and although I’m thankful for that, knowing that she’s out there still keeps my wounds from healing. This year has been sort of emotional for me looking at family pictures and remembering the good times and bad.
If I ever had the opportunity to reconcile I’m pretty sure now I probably would not accept it. To much waters gone under the bridge and the trauma of it all has left me emotionally numb. A friendship with her possibly but then a friend wouldn’t treat you the way she treated me and I would be constantly looking over my shoulder and hyper vigilant and that’s no way to live.
That being said I am also eternally grateful to have had her in my life for over twenty five years. Meeting someone new and opening my heart again seems not only impossible but also unrealistic to me at almost 59 years old.
The conflict of emotions left inside of me as Lbs survivor has cast a dark shadow over my life and I see no way out of it. I’ve lost the innocence I once had coupled with my enthusiasm for life after witnessing the destruction of my family unit. So I look for the answer as to why this has occurred in the first place and find I’m not alone in this quest. Coming here and communicating with like minded people eases my pain and I am eternally grateful to RCR for creating this site.
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I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts..
Here's a question, what about a loss of trust with yourself? Has anyone experienced that?
My xw was the only person I ever really felt was my friend and an equal. Before I met xw, I hung out a lot with a nerdy crowd, that stimulated me intellectually and I was kind of the top of the pole there and then I also hung out with a more social crowd and I was the bottom of the pole there, since I am not the most social or socially aware person.
I just never really felt like I belonged anywhere I met xw. We are both really the same kind of person and I felt like I knew where I belonged and I had the only friend that really mattered to me. Now she's gone and I'm back to feeling like I did before we met. I tried dating and I keep meeting the same kind of people that I did before her, so I don't know if it's me or them.. or what.
Long story short, I have to get out here and live my life and .. I'm afraid and I don't really trust my self not to settle again. I've always felt like I've never fit in anywhere and I've just "made do" and I don't want to do that anymore, but I don't know what to do to change either. So I don't trust my judgement when it comes to people and social situations. I know I want to improve it, I just don't know how.
Has anyone experienced that? Starting over and not trusting yourself to make the same mistakes? I think that's what's really holding me back right now.
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Gman I can't say that I have experienced a loss in trust in myself.
I will say that the rest of what you talk about I can relate to. I wrote about it on my thread recently. Never really fully belonging to one group. Always having to fill one part of yourself with one group, and another somewhere else.
How hard it is to find another person you can be all parts of yourself with.
So my answer would be...for people who feel that way it can be hard. It can be hard to find a person that fits all sides of who you are, but once you do...well I guess you will know to hang on tightly right? :)
It will happen when it happens.
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VERY interesting discussion and some good questions/points here....
I'm going to call this "Musings from the Bear Cave" and warn you it is a bit long...
GMan asked about starting over and not trusting yourself not to make the same mistake(s) again..... As someone who has now been on the receiving end of 2 <x>LC's (xW1 was 30 so QLC maybe? xW2 was 46 so definitely MLC), I was left with a serious case of "WTF is wrong with me's?" and "What Lesson did I not get the first time around?" It took some introspection to see that the two cases, while having similar outcomes, are not the same. xW1 turned into a drug-abusing, raging, bed- and man-hopping lunatic whereas xW2 seems to be wallowing along in a pity-party of depression but it still led me to ask what did I not see up front that allowed me to make the choices I did... and how do I do it better the next time (assuming there is one)? For me, it has crystallized into the realization that, in both cases, I was trying to be a fixer and THAT realization put a HUGE spotlight on my own behaviours and my own "deficits."
People tend to search out partners to fulfill needs, some biological (the need to procreate) some emotional (the need to feel and give love, to protect, to support, etc.), some intellectual (being able to have meaningful conversations about deep subjects), some based on security and safety (primeval/primordial needs). What level of priority we put on each of these things will often determine the "type" of person we attract or that we find attractive (NOT the same thing). By examining our own "needs" and how they relate to the world around us, we may be able to ascertain where we are possibly engaging in patterns that are not healthy (i. e. finding people that need to be rescued or "fixed"). Once THAT is known, we can then identify the feelings and thoughts that fgo along with it and those become knowledge triggers, much like GMan expressed where he sees himself attracting a specific type of person. The thing there is that he RECOGNIZES THAT before getting too involved, allowing himself to become vulnerable... That is definitely progress and growth.
I tend to disagree SLIGHTLY with OR's concepts and her example of the junk removal guys between vulnerability and trust but only in minutia... Hiring someone to do a job, by definition, implies a level of trust/expectations that they can, in fact, do a job. If there was not an iota of trust to begin with, they would not have gotten the job. Trust, therefore, is initially based on (yes, I am going to say that word) expectations. By hiring someone to od a certain piece of work, she made herself vulnerable to disappointment if her expectations were not met (i. e. they did a crappy job or didn't do it at all). Of course, , in a business perspective, she also had the option of not paying them if the job was not done correctly so there is a set of mutual trust/expectations. This business view is, however, VERY different in my view to an interpersonal relationship.
On the personal side, trust and vulnerability go hand in hand. When we meet someone, we extend a little tiny tentacle of vulnerability, take a tiny risk by asking them out or making that initial contact. By the same token, we take that risk knowing that we may be rejected. In order to take that risk and to expose ourselves to the possible rejection, we have to trust ourselves that we can, in fact, cope with the result if it is negative. If we are not in a position to handle that rejection, to me, it is a sign that we are not ready to take that risk yet. How to go about getting ourselves in a position to open ourselves to that risk is a TOTALLY different story and it is as individual as a fingerprint. Some of us tend to be of the "Everybody gets 1 chance" and expect people to be decent humans on the whole mindset (I include myself in this category) while others are the opposite and view the world with skepticism and cynicism. Others have migrated form one end of the spectrum to the other and there are others that are somewhere between what OR called "Pollyanna" and that guy in the cartoon that ran around constantly proclaiming "We are all doomed, we're alllll gonna die."
How much of ourselves we expose then takes on a life of it's own. We expose ourselves, little by little (for the most part - I mean, we are all adults here now with various amounts of baggage/battle damage and not some love-sick bunch of twitterpated teenies), based on the trust we impart to the person we are dealing with. This happens in friendships as well as intimate relationships. With some, we find that thhe level of trust can only go to a certain point, after which the trust is abused or defiled and then we back off a couple of notches and assign them to, as MourningDove so aptly puts it, one of the "outer circles" of friends/acquaintances. Others earn more trust, thereby allowing us to become more vulnerable (which then increases the level of trust - it is a cyclical process). The more we trust and the more we open ourselves to the other, the more risk we assume.
This is all then related to what I wrote above with respect to the healing and identifying our own needs, our own healthy and unhealthy patters because this giving of trust and allowing ourselves to become vulnerable and open is filtered by our own observations. When we have bee nable to identify our own patterns that are possibly not so healthy, we are able then to recognize the emotions and behaviours that are leading us down the slippery slope in time to avoid a major disaster. Doesn't mean that we are not going to get burned a bit but it's comparing burning a fingertip as to putting your whole hand on the griddle palm down.
I personally feel that a true intimate and loving relationship is VERY much dependant on mutual trust and vulnerability. THAT, for example, is one of MY not-so-healthy behaviours that I needed to review and modify - I was always the one that opened myself more easily so that there was a disparity in the amount of trust and vulnerability shown. I have learned what that felt like when I was doing it and now am extremely cognizant of when I tend to be going down that road. When that "red flag" pops up, I either slow down until the other catches up or I will break it off all together because I am NOT interested in lop-sided relationships on ANY level. To me, I visualize it as having to chase someone... (Pursuit and distance). I'm very aware of that situation now and in the case I feel the other person beginning to distance, I stop where I am and let them be. They can then choose to quit running and bridge the distance, in which case, we can take each others hand and proceed forward, they can continue to run which then effectively ends the relationship, or they can choose to stop where they are which results in an assignment of closeness.
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Very good post, UM.
I think you're absolutely correct, identifying the problem is half the battle.
If you keep picking the same kind of person and keep getting negative results, then you need to figure out why you are choosing that kind of person over and over again, and make a conscious effort to look at what it is you are needing, or looking for that is not good for you, perhaps change what you are needing that is not working for you.
If that makes sense.
You did that UM. :) Only you said it much better than I did. It's self reflecting.
It's the only way it's going to change.
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I personally feel that a true intimate and loving relationship is VERY much dependant on mutual trust and vulnerability. THAT, for example, is one of MY not-so-healthy behaviours that I needed to review and modify - I was always the one that opened myself more easily so that there was a disparity in the amount of trust and vulnerability shown. I have learned what that felt like when I was doing it and now am extremely cognizant of when I tend to be going down that road. When that "red flag" pops up, I either slow down until the other catches up or I will break it off all together because I am NOT interested in lop-sided relationships on ANY level. To me, I visualize it as having to chase someone... (Pursuit and distance). I'm very aware of that situation now and in the case I feel the other person beginning to distance, I stop where I am and let them be. They can then choose to quit running and bridge the distance, in which case, we can take each others hand and proceed forward, they can continue to run which then effectively ends the relationship, or they can choose to stop where they are which results in an assignment of closeness.
Um, I've always really enjoyed your well thought out, worded and insightful posts. I always feel like too much of a scatter brain when I'm trying to get my thoughts out. I suppose that's because this is the first really true analyzing I'm doing of myself in this regard and I just haven't been able to dial it in nearly as quickly as you and some others.
The above is true of me too.. I am comfortable with myself and how much I show to people, but you're right. It's always led to lopsided relationships where you're "chasing" the other person. I have felt that many times.. Slowing down, showing restraint and looking for that pursuit / distance thing is all new to me. Getting the hang of this, I think, will be a huge first step for me.
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That was a great read UM,
I suppose most of us on this site fall into the similar category with feelings. I also was always the first to be vulnerable and always have been in lopesided relationships. I do recognize it now and maybe the only bonus that has come from this whole mess is the growing we all are forced to do. To really become who God intended us all to be. Whether with this spouse or the next we would have never been fully happy unless we are able to look into oursleves and fix what was broken.
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Everyone's perspective is so fascinating and informative. UM indicates that trust and expectations are the same, yet for me expectations means someone said they could do it, so I will see if they meet that (no trust) and trust means I already BELIEVE they have the ability to do what I asked. And for me, I can't believe in anyone's ability to do something, personal, business or otherwise, until we have had some interaction. And to me, any interaction with someone I don't know well is being vulnerable because I open myself to disappointment. Trust, for me, means I BELIEVE this person and take them at their word, and I do not do that with any random individual. And I already know I don't hire people to do a job like most people do. It's not just a business transaction to me. I can trust someone will choose to be a bozo, too. I definitely believe trust and vulnerability are cyclical.
SS, imo, we are all mutants or we'd be clones (send in the clones?). You just have a different perspective. I still saw vulnerability first, the willingness to take a risk at trying to understand your colleague, and a trust in yourself to handle whatever happened. You see it differently and it's likely a semantics, experience or perspective thing.
I completely relate to all of you who fringed the various groups in your life. I was always what I called a fringer. I had so many interests, I never fit squarely with any one group, though I had my four core school friends and my 8 core home friends. (Those never crossed over, I'm not sure why). It is my belief that most of the people who end up here are thinkers, introspective, definitely not the surface level people. If we were, it would be easy to just trot along to the next relationship.
There are a lot of good people out there (here we all are!). Trust and vulnerability are important, but I'm beginning to think patience is the key.
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I personally feel that a true intimate and loving relationship is VERY much dependant on mutual trust and vulnerability. THAT, for example, is one of MY not-so-healthy behaviours that I needed to review and modify - I was always the one that opened myself more easily so that there was a disparity in the amount of trust and vulnerability shown. I have learned what that felt like when I was doing it and now am extremely cognizant of when I tend to be going down that road. When that "red flag" pops up, I either slow down until the other catches up or I will break it off all together because I am NOT interested in lop-sided relationships on ANY level. To me, I visualize it as having to chase someone... (Pursuit and distance). I'm very aware of that situation now and in the case I feel the other person beginning to distance, I stop where I am and let them be. They can then choose to quit running and bridge the distance, in which case, we can take each others hand and proceed forward, they can continue to run which then effectively ends the relationship, or they can choose to stop where they are which results in an assignment of closeness.
Thanks for this Ursa. Needed to read it. :)
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Here's a question, what about a loss of trust with yourself? Has anyone experienced that?
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I am going to say yes, I believe I did experience an utter loss of trust in myself. However, I have been calling it a loss of trusting my "intuition". I was convinced that my intuition ( that I heavily relied on and was incredibly accurate) was shattered . Is intuition the same as self -trust ? I think it is.
I do recall conversations early on with my therapist that the "tool" that I have endlessly used with my 5 girls has been believing and trusting my sense of intuition. Even if that little voice held no proof, no verification ...I just knew I was correct in "knowing" something was up. I do remember crying heaving loss of not being able to "read" my daughters ...or not trusting and believing what I was feeling. Rather like a "mother-scanning device" that gives you information about them ..magically. It was gone . We all ask ourselves how we "missed this or missed that ", and I most certainly knew ( intuitively) that something was very very wrong and he met ALL the criteria for having an affair. I dismissed in or dissacociated from it ..it would be too much to "know". In many ways I felt I had betrayed or abandoned myself because I did not trust my own instincts . But I knew. I let other people talk me out of what I intuitively knew. I have recovered from most of those feelings . My intuition has returned and I never fail to listen ...ever. I how this makes some measure of sense.