Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: readytofixmyselffirst on September 03, 2012, 11:02:23 AM
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I have not posted much in the past few days in regards to much because I have been reflecting on the difference between male and female MLCers. I don't think our female spouses are as much about "replay" than they are about finding themselves after years of facilitating the dreams of us and our children. Replay is more about making up for developmental achievements never made while the female seems to want to pursue things and ideas to meet their "needs".
Your w, mine, and several others seems to "disengage" first. This stage is removing themselves from friends and family. They look at the marriage as more of an obstacle than as a source of encouragement.
OM is a source of encouragement of individual identity and emotional support of the female MLCer that does not remind them of family and obligations of family. Instead the Om helps the female MLCer "feel" like they are independent and doing the things they have wanted to do all along.
It is all very rough ideas at this time, and I am trying to put things together to create stages that reflect their journey to wholeness and how we can support them during their crisis.
Something to ponder
RCR Note
I've just split this topic off from Thundarr's thread because I felt it is a great topic on it's own that needs some discussin and this way it can get it's own air time. I asked Thundarr for permission before splitting it.
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I have not posted much in the past few days in regards to much because I have been reflecting on the difference between male and female MLCers. I don't think our female spouses are as much about "replay" than they are about finding themselves after years of facilitating the dreams of us and our children. Replay is more about making up for developmental achievements never made while the female seems to want to pursue things and ideas to meet their "needs".
Your w, mine, and several others seems to "disengage" first. This stage is removing themselves from friends and family. They look at the marriage as more of an obstacle than as a source of encouragement.
OM is a source of encouragement of individual identity and emotional support of the female MLCer that does not remind them of family and obligations of family. Instead the Om helps the female MLCer "feel" like they are independent and doing the things they have wanted to do all along.
It is all very rough ideas at this time, and I am trying to put things together to create stages that reflect their journey to wholeness and how we can support them during their crisis.
Something to ponder
Could also depend on what age of development that they have returned to for the replay.
Maybe women miss out on certain developmental things from their parents that are different that men.
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The evidence of many case studies and community surveys indicate that whether a woman directs most of her life to raising a family or towards cultivating a career, or even towards both, the midlife crisis characteristically prompts her to enter a new phase of self involvement that may typically include altruistic activities or the development of personal interests and hobbies (Barbanel, 1988). Such life choices reflect adaptive responses to the quandary posed by the event of midlife; many women feel adrift and directionless during this time. The painful ramifications of midlife losses for women is underscored by the fact that midlife is the time of most frequent suicides by (white) females across the entire life span; this high suicide rate seems most related to the pain and disorientation of interpersonal disconnectedness (Maris, 1995).
More of the same.....
There is also ample research evidence for the notion that marriage is often more an obstacle than an encouragement in the midlife development of women (see Shek, 1996; Roberts and Newton, 1987; Barbanel, 1988); typically the wife acts to facilitate the dreams of the husband (and children) rather than the other way around. In this way, the woman typically leads an affiliative life focused on the nurturance of the other people in her life at the expense of her own dreams (Gutmann, 1987); although it is also possible that women's life dreams typically include visions of leading such a life of support for others as well as a career, resulting in the so-called "split dream" (Roberts and Newton, 1987; see below). Shek (1996) reports that in addition to death anxiety, "problems related to others" (i.e., husband and family) seem to be leading contributors to midlife crisis formation.
The difference is subtle but still very distinct....
Barbanel notes that the midlife experience of women does not seem to fit the appropriate Eriksonian stage of psychosocial development of "generativity vs. stagnation;" typically women have been involved in generativity all their lives. There can thus be no refuge in taking a new interest in the family or other affiliative concerns as seems to be the hallmark of the "male" midlife crisis. Unlike the typical midlife crisis experience of their male counterparts, female midlifers do not seem to look longingly over their shoulders at connections not made and affiliative relationships not forged; they appear instead to look with some anxiety into the autumn years ahead and become interested in achieving the individuation they were never able to pursue before
This is opposed to male MLCers:
As noted by Gilligan (1982) in her criticism on Levinson's work, midlife research tended in the beginning to heavily represent the male point of view, almost to the exclusion of the female point of view. Popular images of the male midlife crisis abound in the public imagination and are characterized by images of sports cars and young mistresses (Braverman and Paris, 1993). Indeed, the popular culture image seems to describe middle aged men who are desperately trying to hold onto the youth they feel slipping away; thus they make gestures calculated to make them feel young again.
Recent midlife crisis research seems to suggest that the popular image is only half accurate. Men do seem to turn their attention to the life paths left behind them in the midst of the midlife crisis; however, this re-assesment of the past seems less related to regaining youth as it seems related to making up for developmental achievements never made.
Just trying to get more perspective and dialogue concerning the issues that we all face. Of course we are all human and not one model fits for all.
Thanks for the response and sorry for the hijack but Thundarr, your w seems to hit all the key points.
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Without researching & going all 'thinky' I would say the female LBS's here could have a lot to contribute on this topic [new thread maybe?]. I know my journey [more like a bad trip ;)] very much resembles a female midlife crisis according to your sources. The difference for me is that my crisis began with a bang [BD] & I was suddenly stripped of my identity as 'wife, partner, friend'. Unwillingly I am looking at a new role or identity. What & who am I without child or husband? Or career for that matter. :-\ ::)
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Good work, Ready! Thanks!
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Barbanel notes that the midlife experience of women does not seem to fit the appropriate Eriksonian stage of psychosocial development of "generativity vs. stagnation;" typically women have been involved in generativity all their lives. There can thus be no refuge in taking a new interest in the family or other affiliative concerns as seems to be the hallmark of the "male" midlife crisis. Unlike the typical midlife crisis experience of their male counterparts, female midlifers do not seem to look longingly over their shoulders at connections not made and affiliative relationships not forged; they appear instead to look with some anxiety into the autumn years ahead and become interested in achieving the individuation they were never able to pursue before
My ex-wife and my friend's ex-wife have looked over their shoulders at connections and relationships that are at the core of their MLC.....in both cases it is the relationship with their fathers. I think the term looking over their shoulder can better be said using the word regression, which is what makes a crisis different from a transition.
I don't think achievement is a difference between male and female MLCers. I think achievement is a difference between a midlife transition (MLT) and a midlife crisis (MLC).
The information below is from RCR
MLCers feel as though they are losing or have lost something and so they turn around and walk backwards in time to find it. Non-crisis MLTers are looking for something too, but typically they realize it’s not something they have lost because they have not had it yet. If it is something they feel they had, they recognize that what they had can be beneficial for their future, but that doesn’t mean they want to bring the circumstances in which they originally had it with them—they understand that they can bring that little piece forward and apply it to the future.
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I am not arguing with you over "issues" be cause not all females nor will all males fit perfectly into the categories.
I am just offering research based suggestions that female MLCers are different than male MLCers and that trying to fit female MLCers into the stages that are researched and categorized by males and research on males may not be significant or helpful with females.
Another surprising note is that research and surveys show that females have more anxiety over the eventuality of death than males. I would have thought it different.
I have no suggestions either way. It has been what I have observed in my w, Thundarr's w, and OP's w and several other stories by the male LBSer that shows distinct and different thought processes behind the female crisis over the male crisis.
In fact the studies suggest the hormonal changes in the male during the later stages of life also lead to a "family" orientation. More apt to play with grandchildren, take up hobbies such as gardening, painting, and music all suggest the transition of the male through midlife is much different than the "crisis" that others face.
Like I said, I am just starting research and there is not much on the female perspective.
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Another surprising note is that research and surveys show that females have more anxiety over the eventuality of death than males. I would have thought it different.
That's interesting Ready. I wonder if this has to do with anxiety about leaving people that we are connected to?? I have no idea though ......
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My wife told me that after her parents split up when she was a teenager, her life felt 'derailed'. When her father died she felt that she coud get back on the rails again. That meant ditching me, communicating with her high school bf. I don't know if that s looking over her shoulder or not.
She spent this summer visiting friends from high school and university. How many 42 year old mothers do you know doing that? My kids slept in ~15 different beds between her travels and with me visiting my brothers. She has reimagined her family of origin - she told me it was all different now. I was never able to experience this 'different' family - I was only there to listen to the heartache caused by the family as was - before it was all better.
On her Facebook page one day I looked, there was a photo of her fathers grave. Her theme pucture. How many of your friends post photos of their fathers grave on FB? Not saying that it is wrong. It seems unusual, especially to me, knowing what I know of that family.
I feel even after this time that I know little of MLC. I know absolutely that our marriage ending was extremely abrupt - I know that detaching took us both years. She told me that she didn't know how or why she was leaving. It is still horrific for me to think back on it all. I know that it doesn't add up - and it may never add up. But there is an element - a big one, of the past being revisited in my case.
I don't know about the differences of this in men and women. I wonder how much it matters - at this stage mostly I'm trying to make an idea of how to live for the next 5 years or so. Maybe it is just me that feels this way, but it is mystical and deep - the past definitely matters in this ... People, songs, tv shows, places ...
... But one day we'll be older and I wonder then, when I'm thousands of miles away from her, when she has no say at all in my life, when she remembers back - what rails we'll all be traveling on.
bnw
Ps - another note for your research, ready, my bomb drop was - 'I don't love you, I don't want to grow old with you'. Subtle, and caring. ;)
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My wife told me that after her parents split up when she was a teenager, her life felt 'derailed'. When her father died she felt that she coud get back on the rails again. That meant ditching me, communicating with her high school bf. I don't know if that s looking over her shoulder or not.
She spent this summer visiting friends from high school and university. How many 42 year old mothers do you know doing that? My kids slept in ~15 different beds between her travels and with me visiting my brothers. She has reimagined her family of origin - she told me it was all different now. I was never able to experience this 'different' family - I was only there to listen to the heartache caused by the family as was - before it was all better.
On her Facebook page one day I looked, there was a photo of her fathers grave. How many of your friends post photos of their fathers grave on FB? Not saying that it is wrong. It seems unusual, especially to me, knowing what I know of that family.
I feel even after this time that I know little of MLC. I know absolutely that our marriage ending was extremely abrupt - I know that detaching took us both years. She told me that she didn't know how or why she was leaving. It is still horrific for me to think back on it all. I know that it doesn't add up - and it may never add up. But there is an element - a big one, of the past being revisited in my case.
I don't know about the differences of this in men and women. I wonder how much it matters - at this stage mostly I'm trying to make an idea of how to live for the next 5 years or so. Maybe it is just me that feels this way, but it is mystical and deep - the past definitely matters in this ... People, songs, tv shows, places ...
... But one day we'll be older and I wonder then, when I'm thousands of miles away from her, when she has no say at all in my life, when she remembers back - what rails we'll all be traveling on.
bnw
I would see little doubt that she is experiencing a regression. Whether male or female, MLC is a regression. It may matter from the perspective of LBS understanding and Acceptance.
From RCR's article Initiatory Experience
MLC is the result of significant wounding in childhood and at a person's initiatory experience and thus their return to the wounding is a regression wherein they choose to repeat their earlier mistakes in hopes of correcting them rather than applying their experience to make different choices.
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I don't know about the differences of this in men and women. I wonder how much it matters - at this stage mostly I'm trying to make an idea of how to live for the next 5 years or so. Maybe it is just me that feels this way, but it is mystical and deep - the past definitely matters in this ... People, songs, tv shows, places ...
I'm not sure if the difference between men and women in MLC really matters and if there is a big one. Both put an end to the marriage out of teh blue, both abandon spouse and children, both tend to get other person, both go back to regressive lifestyles, both try to individuate. Maybe the reason they do it is different… We all pretty much need to guess how to live for the next 5 years or so.
If MLC comes from childhood wounding and they regress to repeat their earlier mistakes, why are those mistakes all adult ones and not children ones? Children do not have OW/OM, children do not wipe bank accounts clean, children do not go clubbing/travelling (fit what suit your MLCer), children don’t abandon their kids and spouse (they have none). And some of us know our MLCers since they are teenagers and have never seen them doing the mistakes they are doing now. So, exactly what mistakes are they repeating?... I’ve never managed to get this part because, unless the mistakes are invisible and inner things we have no clue about, the mistakes they make while on MLC do not match the mistakes a child would do and often they also have not done them on their teens.
... But one day we'll be older and I wonder then, when I'm thousands of miles away from her, when she has no say at all in my life, when she remembers back - what rails we'll all be traveling on.
We all wonder this, I think...
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If MLC comes from childhood wounding and they regress to repeat their earlier mistakes, why are those mistakes all adult ones and not children ones? Children do not have OW/OM, children do not wipe bank accounts clean, children do not go clubbing/travelling (fit what suit your MLCer), children don’t abandon their kids and spouse (they have none). And some of us know our MLCers since they are teenagers and have never seen them doing the mistakes they are doing now. So, exactly what mistakes are they repeating?... I’ve never managed to get this part because, unless the mistakes are invisible and inner things we have no clue about, the mistakes they make while on MLC do not match the mistakes a child would do and often they also have not done them on their teens.
What about the teenage years? Some of the emotional damage may and probably does occur before the teenage years......but consider these examples from my situation and my friend's situation.
The OM that my friend's ex-wife married then divorced was her high school boyfriend. She had literally not seen him in 20 years before divorcing my friend and marrying him. She also tried to reconnect with her dad and get her dad to accept her new husband.
The OM in my case has the same first name as her high school boyfriend.....and her dad was not fond of him.....at all.
I have known mine since she was a teenager, which is why I know about the family issues and the high school boyfriend. Mine also did not feel safe, protected or loved at home growing up. I am very aware of these issues and they were things she talked to me about when we were dating. I simply had no idea what would happen at midlife. At the time she seemed to understand her issues and was able to cope with them.
They don't all wipe bank accounts clean.
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I am not trying to spread blasphemy in the air, however, I have been on this site for three years and I have yet to see or read about a female MLCer coming back to the marriage. I wanted to share research on this subject. The point is that there is not much difference because there is little research on the female perspective.
Men on the other hand have had a tremendous amount of research and the articles about men do reflect heavily of RCR's articles.
In general it seems that men's choice of life path that emphasizes competence and success offers them "an environment with reliable rewards which can be used to compensate for interpersonal deprivation" (Braverman and Paris, 1993, p. 651). When the career begins to lose its full compensatory power, as seems typical for men in midlife crisis, the men are left with their feelings of emptiness which have been covered up by work all this time.
Further research that men are addressing prior issues than women:
Shek's (1996) findings seem to confirm the self-corrective nature of the midlife crisis for men: men in his study were more likely to report "problems with self" as a major ingredient of the midlife crisis then were women.
As you stated in your RCR's article:
The elements of the typically male midlife crisis experience seems rooted in early developmental issues and their social contexts.
Further examples:
A recent survey of Fortune 500 women executives (Morris, 1995) indicates that women who had previously become successful in business and subsequently identified themselves to be suffering a midlife crisis identified their experiences as analogous to those of men in similarly highly placed positions.
The male crisis seems to amount to a more past-focused assessment of the lifespan during which lifelong investments of time and energy (typically centered around career) are reconsidered, and concern emerges around making up for areas in which development seems incomplete (typically in affiliative or nurturing aspects of life). Although certainly influenced by social and cultural forces, the male crisis typically does not involve assessment of limitations imposed by (and sacrifices made for) others, but rather a re-evaluation of choices that the self has made during the passages of development.
However,
Inasmuch as it is possible to characterize these differences, the female midlife crisis appears to amount to the more difficult and intense of the two, and seems to be defined to greater extent by the actions and needs of others. The female crisis also appears to be characterized by a future-focused re-appraisal of the life course during which a more satisfactory role for the self is sought; this re-appraisal often seems to involve anxiety about inevitable death.
Note that BNW spouse has a picture of her father's grave.
What I am trying to state is that we need to build upon the literature and most of the articles written and describing male MLC and yet little is on the distinct differences of the female MLCer.
It is not to argue with the articles but to provide a different perspective.
Something to ponder
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Teenage years can be a possibility but agree with you, some (or maybe a lot) of the emotional damage can occur before teenage years.
I know mine since he is 17, and used to see in concerts and the movies since he was 16. Don’t recall any of his sweethearts to have OW1 or OW2 name… It is true that he used to play records at school garage parties but it was all a very low profile, quiet thing. No mad clubbing, no drinking till falling apart, no gang of dare devil mates. He was a quiet, more towards the introverted teen that liked French 19 century poetry and German expressionist cinema. OW1 and OW2 are not from his past.
Mine’s dad was not very nice with him if he would come home past midnight (this when he was on his late teens or a young adult). He would get slapped. Often FIL would not allow them (husband and SIL) to go out, so SIL would cry on demand and FIL let them go. There was also FIL OW, and husband had always been heartbroken about that and FIL philandering (that restarted when husband was still an unborn baby). I know he had troubles with this, he never hide from me. Many years latter, when we were already married, husband stopped talking with FIL because FIL had stopped phone husband at his birthday.
None of us had any idea what would happen at midlife. Mine also seemed to understand and deal the best he knew with his issues.
Ok, husband may be trying to sort out his issues regarding FIL and FIL OW and so on. But that is not repeating mistakes from the past. Also, as we know, they only make it worst by becoming the thing they fear the most, in husband’s case, his dad.
No, not all of them wipe bank accounts clean. Some do, some never stop providing for the LBS.
So far husband has not tried to reconnect with FIL, if anything he runs from him as much as he can. He is also running from MIL and SIL. And now has not only the past issues to solve but all the mess his crisis created. Not a nice thing to face.
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Thank you KTF, Stronger and everyone for chiming in on a very interesting topic. I think Ready is onto something and putting our heads together can only be a positive. Or at least give us something to take up our time...
Very early (well, when I first realized something was really wrong) my W attempted to connect with her father who she had never had a relationship with. He NEVER supported anything she did growing up and I think I'm the only guy she ever went out with that she even really introduced to him and that was because we had some things in common. She would spend Sundays with him getting his parents' house ready to sell and then she apparently brought up the idea to him of moving into that house and remodelling it. He reluctanctly went along and let her move in with very cheap rent provided she fixed it up accordingly. That lasted about two months until she decided she hated it there and not only stiffed him on the rent but also took back all the things she had bought for it, even the floor vents which she cleaned off and returned as new. He was really pissed at her for a while after that and their relationship seems to have returned to it's pre-crisis state, one where they co-exist until he gets angry and in turn makes her angry and she doesn't speak to him for 2 months. It was really interesting how she was going out of her way to impress him early on but now doesn't seem to care one way or another. She has also referred to lawyer boy and his W as parental figures but that was only once and not too long after BD.
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Ready,
I hear you - every day the 'live like she isn't coming back' becomes more real. The absolute truth, based on my last meeting with my wife, is that physically and spiritually, she has changed enormously. It feels like the woman I married died. She taught me a lot, whatever state she was in mentally when we were married. She improved me.
I haven't seen any female 'returns' on this site either - with the exception of DGUs friend. I believe if my wife did feel like returning, that a lot of our commonality has gone. She seems adrift to me.
With my upbringing as a Catholic, as the brother of a doctor, as a child of N.Ireland - I understand that life ends. I live as best I can, and without trying to be dramatic, I feel that a part if me died when my marriage ended, and my family broke up. My kids drive me on. I don't fear growing old, but for the thought of having to give up playing soccer. :)
I can't tell what my future has in store - I do believe that my wife's decisions are influenced by her past, terrible things that happened that have impact beyond my abilities to understand. Similar, I think to the impact abuse in the Catholic church has had to many people. I guess she is subconciously working to sort it out - you know maybe there is no other way to process it. And in her life, right now, that's her mission - it's a long calculation of an answer to a very difficult question. I'm not even a parameter. At best I'm something she put a pin in.
For me, my task is believing that I am not a freak, that I could be in a relationship with her, or someone again. That for some women ( most women? ) love is real, commitment is real. Care is genuine - a husband can be important to them. Family is everything.
I don't think there are formulas for returns - men or women. Whatever happens, I guess the unconditionals ( as you consistently demonstrate them ) are probably the key to healing all around. It's not at all easy.
Keep researching. As a software developer, I'd love to build an MLC database.
bnw
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Like button:
I don't think there are formulas for returns - men or women. Whatever happens, I guess the unconditionals ( as you consistently demonstrate them ) are probably the key to healing all around. It's not at all easy.
Thundarr - reading your wife's story [a page or so back now] I felt a lot of compassion for her. From what she said, it seems that she does feel 'inadequate'. It is not clear to me that she's in a PA either. I would say she needs a lighthouse.
Ready et al - Without research it is difficult to draw conclusions about women mlcers returning BUT I would say there might be a huge difference between male & female LBS's. Could male lbs's tend to be less patient :-\ Or more independent?
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I haven't seen any female 'returns' on this site either - with the exception of DGUs friend. I believe if my wife did feel like returning, that a lot of our commonality has gone. She seems adrift to me.
This site is what, 2.75 years old? There are few true return stories on the site as a whole. Those where the MLC has moved home is showing the struggle that is reconnection. One of the key articles to read over and over again is Midlife Crisis Takes Time.
BNW, your wife is adrift......she's in MLC. Your commonalities can return, they are likely not in place while she is going through the identity crisis that is MLC.
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Somehow I would see it less of a 'return' - if ever we were to be in each others lives physically again - and by physically I mean just in the presence of each other. Not quite sure how to describe it. It would feel more like a conclusion or recognition to me. I'm rambling. Thanks for the dialogue. Night. :)
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A couple of posts back I think calamityj made a good point -- I think one of the reasons that fewer female MLCers "come back", at least anecdotally, is that the male LBSers are less likely to allow it -- men seem less likely (and this is just from me reading posts, it's not scientific) to be willing to forgive an affair, for example.
One of my female friends who did this to her H now nearly 20 years ago said that her H divorced her pretty quickly, way before she had got through the process. He also remarried pretty quickly. The female MLCer that I currently know has an H who stood for quite a while, but now has a new relationship, and I have no idea if he'd have his W back, although he certainly would have for about 2 years.
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I split this off as a topic from Thunarr's story thread because I feel it's an important topic for it's own thread.
Ready: I love the stuff your reasearching and yesterday before there were so many more posts I copied your posts to a file I've started for this topic. I;ve been looking at the differences as they are showing in my survey. I actually have determined I need to add quite a bit to the survey, but so much needs special survey funtions--like another question being available only if the person gives a certain answer. And that sort of fancy stuff is not available for free. So I may just change the survey and it will sadly be more complicated--because there will be a lot of if you answered teh above question as...then, other wise write in NA. I wish there were an NA checkbox I could just add to certain questions. I also wish I could have a calendar for the date questions--everyone formats the dates differently and I have to manually correct them in excel to get things to work! And if I could jave a reject if the person doesn't meet the criteria (Bomb must have been a year ago for the survey to be valid) I could stop people from wasting their time by taking it too soon.
I'm still researching survey plugins and features, but most cost--and the cost is actually pretty high--one was $29.95/month and you didn't even get very many questions for that cost.
I want to ask some thorough custody and child-age at Bomb Dop questions--since one of the questions is about the children and which female MLCers stay home for at least a year after Bomb Drop and which become Close versus Distant Contacters.
Another I just thought if from reading this thread is an amployment question--career-track, steady non career-track, stay at home parent et al. I think the survey is more gender biased without those. And my research has been male-based.
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RCR,
For your survey information, my company used Survey Monkey (www.surveymonkey.com) to do surveys and questions with multiple answers. For some basic information that I gathered, this basic site is free to set up. I'm not sure if this will help but I thought I would pass along that information.
BTW, this topic is very much on my radar since my W is the MCLer and has been in MLC for about 18 to 20 months. W definitely has issues from childhood or teenage years that she needs to come to grips with. I would like to be part of this active topic since it hits close to home.
Bailmor
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I think Calamity made a great point.
From my perspective in this male dominated world quite often, although we cherished our wives, there was also a sense of owning, that the vows taken were a contract that needed to be fulfilled. So when our MLC'r takes up with the OM or OW that the sense changed to a violation of the terms. Understanding doesn't start until the attempt is made to enforce the contract, to "fix" things. The female MLC'r sees this as the same old behavior that things will never "change". The female LBS, from my prospective tries to understand first, without regard to fixing and in doing so remains ahead in "Paving the way" and allowing for a reconciliation/return whereas male LBS (Me) seek finality/closure.
Mac
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I agree wholeheartedly that there are clear similarities regarding the genesis of their "crises" and how they manifest themselves. At the same time, I agree that there are clear distinctions. Ultimately, we are talking about people with severe psychological defects which kept them from growing up. Sure, some "do the work" and grow up some as a result of their "crisis", but most don't. Out of the hundreds of female MLC stories that I've heard, very few have even tried to reconcile. And, worse yet, of those who tried, very few of the female MLCrs matured to that of an adult prior to trying. In fact, I can only think of one that did. So, roughly speaking, you have about a 0.3% chance of reconciling with a mature woman "post-crisis", IMO. Bad news all around. They just never grow up and they never will.
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One of the issues to consider when reading research is that often what is referred to MLC is more geared towards MLT. However, from our standpoint, MLC is a "crisis" and MLT is the transition phase.
Yet, certain themes are evident that sound out in both female MLT and MLC that are different than the male issues during MLT/MLC, This is from a study of LDS women describing their feelings the younger cohort are women interviewed at the ages of 35-44:
Additionally, the younger women appeared dissatisfied with life and were searching for more meaning. Kathy’s husband was absent a lot of the time because he was traveling on business. She felt imprisoned by the children.
This data also indicates a conflict over the needs of others versus their individual growth
The younger women experienced conflict in doing what others expected of them, or choosing to do what was best for them.
The study went on to state that all women were aware of their physical changes and that the changes were making them "less attractive".
The study does go on to state that the LDS women did not report the same confusion that has been reported in other surveys.
Once again, this is a study of MLT. However it does reinforce the identity conflict of the female spouse in putting the needs of children and spouse ahead of her own pursuits.
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I also agree wholeheartedly that most mental helath clinicians are ignorant as to the differences between a transition and a crisis. They just have no idea. None. And, as a result, they often make suggestions that do more harm than good.
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I have not posted much in the past few days in regards to much because I have been reflecting on the difference between male and female MLCers. I don't think our female spouses are as much about "replay" than they are about finding themselves after years of facilitating the dreams of us and our children. Replay is more about making up for developmental achievements never made while the female seems to want to pursue things and ideas to meet their "needs".
Would say it is all Replay, just two different approaches’ to it. Males are also after finding themselves, even those that have to make up for development achievements. Often males don’t know who they are, they find themselves losts in marriage. At least that is what I sense from the stories here and also from my husband.
Without researching & going all 'thinky' I would say the female LBS's here could have a lot to contribute on this topic [new thread maybe?]. I know my journey [more like a bad trip ;)] very much resembles a female midlife crisis according to your sources. The difference for me is that my crisis began with a bang [BD] & I was suddenly stripped of my identity as 'wife, partner, friend'. Unwillingly I am looking at a new role or identity. What & who am I without child or husband? Or career for that matter. :-\ ::)
It more or less happened the same thing to me but more regarding our creative joint projects = without career. The LBS “crisis” often starts with a BD. Not sure if female LBS are more patient than male LBS… most people with a spouse in MLC will divorce and that is it.
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Sure, some "do the work" and grow up some as a result of their "crisis", but most don't. Out of the hundreds of female MLC stories that I've heard, very few have even tried to reconcile. And, worse yet, of those who tried, very few of the female MLCrs matured to that of an adult prior to trying. In fact, I can only think of one that did. So, roughly speaking, you have about a 0.3% chance of reconciling with a mature woman "post-crisis", IMO. Bad news all around. They just never grow up and they never will.
From RCR's blog
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=111
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But what do the statistics tell you about reasons? If it is true that only 10% return, why is that? How many of the 90% of couples who do not reconcile are due to the abandoned spouse choosing to not reconcile? How many are due to the MLCer’s fear that his spouse will say no? How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but kick’em to the curb immediately?
Thanks DGU - Here is what I think we should focus on, even if you dont kick them to the curb right away, are you going to do it before you get the chance to reconnect?
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Yes, Old Pilot and here's something else from that blog to think about when numbers get thrown around like that. Somebody, perhaps a newbie, will read that and get completely discouraged. It's also about knowing your audience.
Reporting that 70 or 80% return, or that 90 or 95% do not return is not even about accuracy.
Your marriages will not end or rebuild based on statistics. If you get to rebuild, it will be based on the work you do Paving the Way–the Unconditionals: Grace, Forgiveness and Agape, the Releasers: Detachment, Letting-Go and Surrender; your Self Focus: peace, strength, hope versus expectation etc.
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I am not focused on percentages either. The data and research is qualitative in nature. I am just looking at the underlying issues and trying to come up with different strategies and understanding of female MLC as opposed male MLC.
It is not to detract or take away but to add to our knowledge base.
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How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but kick’em to the curb immediately?
Why is the term "kick 'em to curb" used in this context? Does it suggest that not wanting to continue in a relationship with an adulterer is an extreme reaction? It is not unreasonable, having been deceived, lied to, slandered and savaged by the hounds of hell, to calmly conclude that a trusting relationship with a person capable of such gross disrespect and cruelty is perhaps not a safe option. Is it "kick 'em to the curb" or is it a rational response to what is for many people intolerable behaviour?
From my experience it is the LBS that gets well and truly kicked to the curb.
honour
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How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but kick’em to the curb immediately?
Why is the term "kick 'em to curb" used in this context? Does it suggest that not wanting to continue in a relationship with an adulterer is an extreme reaction? It is not unreasonable, having been deceived, lied to, slandered and savaged by the hounds of hell, to calmly conclude that a trusting relationship with a person capable of such gross disrespect and cruelty is perhaps not a safe option. Is it "kick 'em to the curb" or is it a rational response to what is for many people intolerable behaviour?
From my experience it is the LBS that gets well and truly kicked to the curb.
honour
That's why I said immediately. I don;t consider it kicking'em to the curb if it's not an immediate/knee jerk reaction. Kicking them out can be a part of a rational response rather than a reaction, but I generally use the phrase ro refer to a reaction rather than a thought-out response.
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I also agree wholeheartedly that most mental helath clinicians are ignorant as to the differences between a transition and a crisis. They just have no idea. None. And, as a result, they often make suggestions that do more harm than good.
May be true, but I know of one that sure as hell knows the difference!!!! There are more but I'll let them speak for themselves.
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How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but kick’em to the curb immediately?
Why is the term "kick 'em to curb" used in this context? Does it suggest that not wanting to continue in a relationship with an adulterer is an extreme reaction? It is not unreasonable, having been deceived, lied to, slandered and savaged by the hounds of hell, to calmly conclude that a trusting relationship with a person capable of such gross disrespect and cruelty is perhaps not a safe option. Is it "kick 'em to the curb" or is it a rational response to what is for many people intolerable behaviour?
From my experience it is the LBS that gets well and truly kicked to the curb.
honour
That's why I said immediately. I don;t consider it kicking'em to the curb if it's not an immediate/knee jerk reaction. Kicking them out can be a part of a rational response rather than a reaction, but I generally use the phrase ro refer to a reaction rather than a thought-out response.
Why use the phrase at all? The use of "immediately" doesn't satisfactorily moderate the term "kick 'em to the curb." The term "kick 'em to the curb" is an emotive term. Why not say:
How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but choose to divorce immediately?
divorce = rational, understandable response given the dreadful circumstances
kick 'em to curb = extreme, vengeful response regardless of the dreadful circumstances
The LBS has a difficult enough time post BD just hanging on to life without being burdened and confused further by implied criticism that not wishing to participate (whether the decision is taken immediately or at a later stage) in a relationship with an adulterer is somehow an unfair, unloving or irrationally extreme position to take.
I appreciate this site is for Standers but Standing is not the only right and proper way to proceed and Standing does not have an exclusive right to the moral high ground.
honour
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I appreciate this site is for Standers but Standing is not the only right and proper way to proceed and Standing does not have an exclusive right to the moral high ground.
In fact I would agree that if you tke this context with your spouse, you will never reconnect. I support standing for the LBS so that they can get a firm ground and make a positive decision for themselves and their families. I think the first initiial thought is that the relationship is over and to divorce immediately.
I may still end up in divorce court, but I will do so in a thoughtful, rational, and caring manner doing what is best for me, my children, and my wife. It will be my last resort and hopefully it will be her divorce if it does go that way. I do not want a divorce and I know that is what is best for my children, their future spouses, and my grandchildren.
I hope that my actions set an example for my kids that in the end, I did what was best for them and that they were always my first priority.
(((((hugs)))))
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Why use the phrase at all? The use of "immediately" doesn't satisfactorily moderate the term "kick 'em to the curb." The term "kick 'em to the curb" is an emotive term. Why not say:
How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but choose to divorce immediately?
divorce = rational, understandable response given the dreadful circumstances
kick 'em to curb = extreme, vengeful response regardless of the dreadful circumstances
I use the term exactly for your reasons for criticizing it, because it is emotive and I see the action as reactive. Though you are correct that I am being judgmental--not that I intended that, but I'll admit it.
I personally do not see it (divorce) as a rational and understanding response when done in the first moments after discovery; I think it would be difficult for any emotional being to be rational during such a shock and trauma. Divorce is a major life-altering choice that needs time for it to be rational. The end-decision may be the same. The opposite is not Stnading either. Taking a couple months before making a decision doesn't mean a person is Standing; they may even know their likely decision will be divorce. Kick'em to the curb is an action that is without an out--no allowance for a spouse who wants to stop an affair an reapir the marriage--clearly not an MLCer situation.
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Just thought I'd chime in. I'm guessing I'm as close as anyone to reconciliation.
I don't think my wife went as far off the deep end as most but she has been
gone for over 2.5 years. We date, we go on vacations, we have a really good
relationship going, we just don't sleep under the same roof.
IMO the replay has ended, I've become her best friend again.
I think if I pushed she would come back, but I want it to be her choice and
not feel forced on her end.
She was / is the "uber clinger"
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Why use the phrase at all? The use of "immediately" doesn't satisfactorily moderate the term "kick 'em to the curb." The term "kick 'em to the curb" is an emotive term. Why not say:
How many abandoned spouses do not Stand but choose to divorce immediately?
divorce = rational, understandable response given the dreadful circumstances
kick 'em to curb = extreme, vengeful response regardless of the dreadful circumstances
I use the term exactly for your reasons for criticizing it, because it is emotive and I see the action as reactive. Though you are correct that I am being judgmental--not that I intended that, but I'll admit it.
I personally do not see it (divorce) as a rational and understanding response when done in the first moments after discovery; I think it would be difficult for any emotional being to be rational during such a shock and trauma. Divorce is a major life-altering choice that needs time for it to be rational. The end-decision may be the same. The opposite is not Stnading either. Taking a couple months before making a decision doesn't mean a person is Standing; they may even know their likely decision will be divorce. Kick'em to the curb is an action that is without an out--no allowance for a spouse who wants to stop an affair an reapir the marriage--clearly not an MLCer situation.
I don't know that I would consider myself rational, but the reality is that as I sit here tonight I begin to realize that this past year has been a year wasted. I never dreamt that the year immediately after I finally finished school would be my worst year ever. I am so disheartened by all the things I have failed to do over the past year and the ways that I am beginning to realize I have failed my children during this mess. I have a clothes basket of clean clothes in my room that belong to the kids that has been there for many months. Several of the clothes in there they have now outgrown. I ask myself if I actually missed this past year of my kids' lives as I stumbled around in a fog of my own, one made of depression and denial as I sought answers for that which has none. I've been faking it this whole time and now realize I'm not to the point of making it and I don't even know if I'm close. I've been so devastated and have handled it so poorly in many ways that it's a miracle I am still sitting here in my own living room and my kids are still with me. I've kept a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs and clothes on their backs as well as telling them I loved them every day but that's it. Those are the bare minimum in my opinion and I have done such a poor job of leading them to happiness. As I walked around my driveway tonight I cannot remember the last time I sat out there with the kids as they rode their bikes, drew with sidewalk chalk and played basketball. What have I been doing this past year but wallowing in my own pity and depression while I've missed opportunities with the kids. Would this have been different had I just not been so stubborn and given up right away and went through with the D? Have I made the right decisions? Will my family ever be reunited and is it worth the cost of all of this? If my family is gone forever how will I and my kids view this period in our lives? Has it all been for naught, or am I being too hard on myself? My point is I don't know if "kicking them to the curb" isn't the most rational move for someone in our situations to make.
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I disagree, Thundarr.
I would say you're a really fun dad, actually, and I'm not just saying that.
About the pile of clean clothes? We all have that stuff all around our house--it's the details of LIFE, like fingerprints on the walls. You just have to have the right attitude about it. None of the messes really matter right now--you were too busy taking your kids out to eat, registering them for school and getting school supplies, getting them to parades--I can't remember all the stuff you've done with them this year, but it's a lot.
That could be a fun exercise with your son and daughters. Just admit to them you're feeling foggy-headed and you need help remembering the fun stuff you did with them this year. That would be a very productive exercise as long as you don't dwell on the fact that mommy wasn't there with you.
What matters is that you were THERE for them, Thundarr. Yes, you were depressed, and YOU KEPT GOING. Yes, sometimes we have to fake it, but I see that as a strength, not a weakness, to carry on even when you're not sure you can.
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Thundarr,
You feel that you didn't do what you were supposed to do, or wanted to do, with your kids over the past year. Okay. So what the F*CK are you going to do about that? Start another thread? Here's some therapy for you: Every time that you feel like posting on this board, go and do something for your children.
Tough love.
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Thundarr,
You feel that you didn't do what you were supposed to do, or wanted to do, with your kids over the past year. Okay. So what the F*CK are you going to do about that? Start another thread? Here's some therapy for you: Every time that you feel like posting on this board, go and do something for your children.
Tough love.
There is much wisdom here. In a Pimp Stick sort of way, yes, but much wisdom all the same. Love ya, Doc!
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T-
I think you out of all the fathers that I know did the most for your kids and they know it. I think you know it deep down too.
Sometimes you feel like you havent done enough, but when you start counting the things you've done, you will see that you mean so much in their lives....
Heck, even though I am a part time dad, I feel that I've done more with and for my kids in the past year than I ever had.
The MLCer texted a few months ago that she was a good mother, but I am a joke of a father.
I have no idea what prompted her to say that about me... perhaps I didn't play with my son enough, or perhaps I worked too much. But nevertheless, I try everyday to be a better father. Actually at times, I wished I was in your shoes having to care for the kids... this way - there is no ambiguity of my role.
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I appreciate this site is for Standers but Standing is not the only right and proper way to proceed and Standing does not have an exclusive right to the moral high ground.
In fact I would agree that if you tke this context with your spouse, you will never reconnect.
In a few days time she will be another man's wife; is it healthy to be thinking about reconnecting with another man's wife?
honour
PS For the record the divorce was at her instigation, at full speed and do not pass Go.
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I appreciate this site is for Standers but Standing is not the only right and proper way to proceed and Standing does not have an exclusive right to the moral high ground.
In fact I would agree that if you tke this context with your spouse, you will never reconnect.
In a few days time she will be another man's wife; is it healthy to be thinking about reconnecting with another man's wife?
honour
PS For the record the divorce was at her instigation, at full speed and do not pass Go.
My ex-wife divorced me within 6 months of bomb drop. There was cycling during that entire 6 month period.....and beyond. The divorce was completely done by my ex-wife. If it weren't for a signature, I'd have been a non-participant.
My ex-wife has married the OM. She still seems to have Boomerang behavior. So, how do I handle it? Well, these things from RCR reflect what I think.
Give them freedom to ruin their relationship.
Who will be the woman scorned; you or the alienator? You get to choose. (or man)
Fighting leads to violence, Standing is not about fighting for your marriage. It is about peace and surrendering. Let the alienator do the fighting.
This thread is about the differences of male and female MLCers, but it also stands out to me there may be a difference in male and female LBS also. I have been on other websites in the past (several of them). I haven't been on them in a couple of years now, but one of the reasons I chose Heros Spouse is that I didn't share the extreme anger and bitterness that seemed to exist with many of the male LBS who posted on other sites. That doesn't mean I'm not angry at times, or haven't been angry.
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yeah
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Fighting leads to violence, Standing is not about fighting for your marriage. It is about peace and surrendering. Let the alienator do the fighting.
Yes, but if you end up in court you (yoru lawyer) are going to have to fight. You cannot surrender in legal matters if they are trying to harm you. But the fight can be left to your lawyer.
This thread is about the differences of male and female MLCers, but it also stands out to me there may be a difference in male and female LBS also. I have been on other websites in the past (several of them). I haven't been on them in a couple of years now, but one of the reasons I chose Heros Spouse is that I didn't share the extreme anger and bitterness that seemed to exist with many of the male LBS who posted on other sites. That doesn't mean I'm not angry at times, or haven't been angry.
I'm a female and when I come across those other boards I did not like the anger, resentment, dirty language and a few other things going on there both from female and male LBS. Could not identify with those foruns or capable of join them. I found this board to be very different from all others.
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but one of the reasons I chose Heros Spouse is that I didn't share the extreme anger and bitterness that seemed to exist with many of the male LBS who posted on other sites.
Doesn't the quote below sound angry, bitter and arrogant to you?
Give them freedom to ruin their relationship.
Why not simply say give them the freedom to have their relationship. It is a big assumption to predict their new relationship will ruin. It may be that your xW and my xW will be happier than they have ever been with their new partners than with us, and if we love them shouldn't we wish them well in that, rather than covertly hope they ruin?
honour
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I don't think I've ever heard of a relationship starting in infidelity that has been a good marriage. I'm sure there are exceptions though. Just don't know of any.
If they will do it with you they will do it to you IMHO
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but one of the reasons I chose Heros Spouse is that I didn't share the extreme anger and bitterness that seemed to exist with many of the male LBS who posted on other sites.
Doesn't the quote below sound angry, bitter and arrogant to you?
No
Give them freedom to ruin their relationship.
Why not simply say give them the freedom to have their relationship. It is a big assumption to predict their new relationship will ruin. It may be that your xW and my xW will be happier than they have ever been with their new partners than with us, and if we love them shouldn't we wish them well in that, rather than covertly hope they ruin?
I don't feel the need to alter the wording to things RCR wrote. It's quite helpful as it is. Certainly you are free to disagree.
And it's not too big of an assumption, simply based on two things....1)what we know about MLC and the anger that often comes with it....and 2) the divorce rate of second marriages whether MLC or not.
Good things don't happen when you walk out of your marriage and divorce your spouse. They just don't. Happiness is not finding a new partner or spouse.
I like something Rick Warren said. He said God is more concerned about your holiness than your happiness.
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I don't think I've ever heard of a relationship starting in infidelity that has been a good marriage. I'm sure there are exceptions though. Just don't know of any.
If they will do it with you they will do it to you IMHO
Are we talking in terms of whether the relationship is still going on, or the quality of that relationship?
My stepsister basically had an affair, divorced her husband, and married the OM. It's been at least 15+ years; they have a kid who is in high school now. Her son from her first marriage is 26 and everyone seems more or less accepting of what has happened by now.
Now, that's not to say there have been no problems, but they are still going strong.
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A woman my W worked with when she was a teen was having an affair with the security guard. She left her H for him and they have been married 25 years now. The last time I saw them was at D19's graduation - a week after BD. Seeing them didn't boost my spirits at all that night.
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... if we love them shouldn't we wish them well in that, rather than covertly hope they ruin?
You're a better person than I am if you wish them well.>:( :o ;D ;D
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This site is what, 2.75 years old? There are few true return stories on the site as a whole. Those where the MLC has moved home is showing the struggle that is reconnection. One of the key articles to read over and over again is Midlife Crisis Takes Time.
You also have to account for the fact that not every man with an MLCing wife will recognize it as MLC, or find their way to a site like this. There's also the likelihood that they will reject their partner's crisis and file for divorce themselves, or have a divorce pushed upon them and feel the only thing they can do is accept it and move on.
Standing is a truly exceptional thing to do. Most people do not have a support system for Standing; friends and family see that we are hurting, and want us to stop hurting so they can feel better. Sadly, even many churches seem to take the stance that the best thing they can do is help the LBS cope with the divorce.
Even then, people may choose to Stand at first but as time goes on they convince themselves that their spouse is really happy now, get worn down by the constant Monster behavior, or get restless and want to get on with their life.
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Standing is a truly exceptional thing to do. Most people do not have a support system for Standing; friends and family see that we are hurting, and want us to stop hurting so they can feel better.
I would go farther & say the idea of standing doesn't even occur to most people. If I had believed my h [never quite believed his story] I would have been long gone. The only reason I found this site is because his behaviour was so inexplicable that I keep digging until I found a rationale. Once I found the site I gradually saw sense in calming down & giving him time & space, i.e. standing.
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I appreciate this site is for Standers but Standing is not the only right and proper way to proceed and Standing does not have an exclusive right to the moral high ground.
In fact I would agree that if you tke this context with your spouse, you will never reconnect.
In a few days time she will be another man's wife; is it healthy to be thinking about reconnecting with another man's wife?
honour
PS For the record the divorce was at her instigation, at full speed and do not pass Go.
Honour, my friend, I am going to take this once in a blue moon opportunity to issue a 2 x 4 across the pond to you. I detect a great deal of anger in your posts lately and rightfully so. The sword of righteous indignation is yours to wield after what you've been through, but I also detect a great deal of pain as well. Now, I had an epiphany tonight in that you used to talk about how you feel your W may be being manipulated by a sociopathic higher-up in her company. I put that together with the fact that she is a Vanisher and has had little to no contact with you for several months. So, would it not stand to reason that the picture she has of you is likely being painted by the OM and would it not be conceivable that she may be being manipulated to see your lack of contact as either your approval of her new marriage or that you have moved on to someone else? So, here is my 2 x 4 - WHY NOT TAKE ACTION? What do you have to lose? You're divorced and your kids are grown so she can't hurt you any more than she already has. Find her and contact her, and I don't mean text or email as you never know who is responding and it may be OM. Drive or fly to where she is and get at least some uninterrupted time with her. Let her know what her choices truly are. Make sure she knows that you still want her despite what has happened and that you believe the two of you can make it work. Hell, look at how many years it DID work! Let her know you disagree with her decision and that you want her to be happy because you love her unconditionally. Again, let her SEE THIS IN PERSON!! I'm not thinking of romanticized storylines in movies here but rather making sure you've truly done all you could. If she goes through with it then you will have the closure that you so sorely lack.
Again, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE?
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The LBS has a difficult enough time post BD just hanging on to life without being burdened and confused further by implied criticism that not wishing to participate (whether the decision is taken immediately or at a later stage) in a relationship with an adulterer is somehow an unfair, unloving or irrationally extreme position to take.
There's a difference between what we imply and what you infer.
Sure, there are people who are Standing for their marriages because their faith, or the vows they swore to their spouses, compel them to do so. And they may point this out to people who share those ideals but are wavering in their commitment.
Speaking for myself? I have never told people that they are bad or immoral for not Standing. In fact, I've said the exact opposite: whether you choose to Stand or not, I support your decision. I do urge caution in jumping to conclusions or making decisions in the heat of the moment, but the only time I can think of where I have pushed someone to consider the moral ramifications of divorcing, it was someone who had specifically stated that their beliefs did not allow for divorce but was wavering in their commitment.
I don't think that Standing is appropriate in every situation; and I think people can Stand for bad reasons as well as good. RCR has mentioned one case where a woman whose Stand effectively killed her, because she never did the healing that she needed to do.
I appreciate this site is for Standers [...]
And people who come here should respect the feelings and decisions of people who choose to Stand.
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I'm going to digress from the current discussion for a moment to go back to what was being talked about earlier, that female MLCers do this because they've felt that they've looked after everyone else and now it is their turn, while men have different reasons.....
Actually, one of the things that my MLCer has said, at least in the beginning, is "what about me?" It's like he is more like the females in that respect.... it's like he feels that he's done what has been expected, and now he's entitled (yes, that is there) to do what he wants.
About 6 months after BD he said that what he liked about his new life was that he could come home from work and do whatever he liked, rather than what he had to do. Even now he still seems to resent the fact that he has to be responsible, if only financially, for us.
Now he's cycled all over the place since then, but as this is a discussion on the differences (or similarities?) between male and female MLCers, I thought I'd throw that in.
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Wow Ready you opened up a can of worms on your sight. Here I've been missing it.
First off, I think it is great that you are trying to piece together the differences between male and female MLCers. I believe it will help. I think you will find some interesting differences but a lot of similarities. Selfishness is the foundation of this crisis, we see it over and over again, in different forms but in every one of them. I hope you are able to find the answer that your are searching for.
As some of you know, I was a stander and now I'm not and am going to be filing the Divorce. I have complete respect for anyone who stands, because it is a very difficult path to walk. I don't care if you make it one week, a few months or years, fought the D or didn't, you stood up for yourself, your values, your heart, and your marriage. You chose to do something that is against norms with our society. You loved someone enough.
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That is what I am famous for, stirring things up!
Actually, I was researching items about MLC and came across an article that dealt with MLC in women as opposed to men. The reason why the authors wrote the article was that in their opinions there were differences as our society has programmed women and men to view their roles differently. Men seem more preoccupied with going back to resolve past issues while women are more concerned about individuality after children leave the home.
From my w's perspective, she has nothing. She feels empty and she feels guilty about whatever she does. Until she can realize that her life is disappearing without purpose or aim, she is always going to be lost.
That is because my w has not found or heard of Jesus or the redemption of one's soul through Christ. Since she is no longer in the light of GOD, she is in the darkness. I can not lead her to this point. It will be her choice and hers alone. She must find her own purpose and hopefully, she will no longer see our marriage or me as a obstacle to her own growth.
I am sorry about your situation, but I am glad that you have come to a resolution.
((((((hugs))))))
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Ready,
This is a bit of a tangent. I need to write it somewhere. My friend that I've been playing guitar with has had a significant mental breakdown. He is nearing 40, his dad died early this year. Things have been going poorly at work ( I met him in my last role ). His dad was abusive.
This friend came to me to talk about his problems at work. His views differ from mine in many ways. I think I'm more pragmatic, and can easily find things to interest me at work - I'm lucky - I'm an engineer in a great company and try to seize opportunites. I think deep down that our company hopes we'll innovate. But he sees things as very rule based. He expects opportunities to be presented to him. He is angry that they aren't.
One day he called me to his desk. The rest of his team were away celebrating completing a milestone in the project. He was working to catch up. He broke down and started crying. Then he started turning monster on me. I'd seen it before.
I just listened. He was in a pool of tears. All I could do was urge him to go home to his wife. He didn't.
He sent me an abusive email. I didn't reply. I wanted to. But I'd seen this before.
Roll on three weeks. He hasn't been into work. He sent an email at the weekend telling me that he was sorry for the words he wrote. He has been hospitalized for depression.
My mind was going through this question of 'did I say something wrong'. He tried to blame me - but I said hardly anything, and I don't even work with him. All I've done is help him play music, and talk about common interests.
I think there are two sides. First - he has significantly deep rooted issues. He was genuinely worrying to be around. Secondly - there is something in my own nature that some people can sense and abuse. I've seen it in a few people. Like some kind of challenge to any humility. That scares me too - though this time I knew not to react. That's exactly what they want. They want to fight it out. I was sad to walk away from this, but I'm not going to be his outlet - at the moment, I just don't feel safe.
So - I'm writing this for a few reasons. One is that I wanted to share it ( apologies for sharing it on this thread ). The second - I think this is a midlife crisis - though he hasn't had an affair - I think it is more than depression. Third - depression is absolutely a huge factor and I see that now in this friend, and in my wife - in her monster. Very similar. Finally for your research - I see common traits - men and women - though I am sure there are many differences.
Strange times.
bnw
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BNW you handled that well.
I remember reading somewhere that our MLCers give us training in how to deal with difficult people.
there is something in my own nature that some people can sense and abuse. I've seen it in a few people. Like some kind of challenge to any humility. That scares me too - though this time I knew not to react.
I also remember reading research into bullies when my boys were young.
It said that at the beginning of the school year a bully will test everybody in the classroom to see who is scared and who reacts with fear.
Those that react in this way keep getting targeted. They leave those alone that either laugh it off or ignore them and walk away with confidence.
Standing your ground and just listening, you handled his rage by not reacting. Nice job.
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Ready,
I am sorry about your wife and her being so lost within herself. I am glad that you understand that this is her problem and her's alone. What makes me so mad is that these MLCers run amoke and hurt the one that loved them. I wish we could put them in a patted room and just check on them once in a while so their craziness does effect us. Life and peace is hard enough without them continues screwing up.
Big Hug to you my friend.
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I wrote about my friend. Feel a bit guilty writing about it here, but I'd value advice if anyone's willing. My friend wrote to me today asking if I'd sponsor him to become a Catholic. He wants to work through the Catholic church's RCIA program. I had no idea at all that he was religious. I think his wife and her family are Catholics.
I remember DGU writing one time that during MLC, religion is in question. I also remember when my wife was going through the early stages she was advised by her counsellor that it was important not to make a big decision during such an emotional moment.
It asks questions of me. I guess I have an underlying fear of being abused, because he was monstrous to me. He also doesn't seem to understand that. I also have belief. While I struggle at times because the Catholic church has been dreadful to so many people ( I won't even let my sons out of my sight at church ) it has always been a strength for me, and I'd be content to help him share in the strength it gave me. I also believe there are no accidents and that I'm being asked/tested in my faith.
It just strikes me as unusual. I think maybe the first step is to have a coffee with my friend.
Logistically too it is hard. I have a very busy life with my Spanish classes, my work, my children and my music commitments. RCIA is 22 weeks of commitment.
bnw
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BNW,
I was the Director of Religious Education for the Catholic Church and ran the RCIA program during one of my H's assignments. If you were to come to me to seek advice and you told me you were conflicted, I would ask these questions of you as the potential sponsor and to your friend:
1) how did you honestly feel when your friend asked you to be his sponsor? Fearful? Honored? Concerned? Inadequate? Don't be dishonest with your answers because this is critical in deciding how you want to proceed.
2) if you feel compelled to say yes, is it out of a sense of duty as a Catholic? Obligation to your friend? Or is it done freely without reservation?
3) if deep in your heart you feel called to be his sponsor, are you prepared to make the commitment without reservation and without resentment to the time commitment and to embrace the teachings of the Church while you are in the classroom participating and discussing the teachings with him?
4) if you are still conflicted with sponsoring your friend, are you able to personally explain to him why you are?
5) if you truly want to be his sponsor, would you at any time seek counsel about your reservations with a priest to explain your resentments and concerns about the Church, your friend's abuse, or do you feel talking to a priest could only add to your resentment?
I believe if you get to the root of your concerns and answer these questions honestly and other questions that may come up while asking them of yourself, you will know what is preventing you from making a decision about being your friend's sponsor. If you don't want to do it, there is no shame in saying you are honored by his request but you personally don't believe you have what it takes to give him the full support of sponsorship that he deserves. Sponsoring is a more than just sitting in a classroom. It is helping form their experience and relationship with the Lord and with the Church. It is being their companion and share in their faith journey. It will enrich your life as well.
You will know what to do and the right thing to do. Pray for guidance. Answer these questions if you can and talk to your friend. He is making a BIG commitment. At the very least he deserves your honesty. He will respect you for it.
~SG
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I remember DGU writing one time that during MLC, religion is in question.
What I have written is from other sources, typically Conway or RCR. Conway refers to God as one of the four "enemies" of the MLCer. He wrote that their core values are turned upside down, which is what makes it a crisis. I also like the definition of MLC being "an extreme period of doubt and anxiety".
Here are a few things RCR wrote about Christian beliefs in some threads.
Most MLCers leave their faith. Some attend church with their families on occasion, but it’s really just to be polite or do it for show
Doubt is normal and for some doubt leads them to continue in their faith, whereas most MLCers become so angry and disillusioned that church is simply another rule.
This may have been said to provoke or test you, but deeper than that, it was an expression of her turmoil and doubt. But taking it personally, you see it as evil or demonic. Doubt is not evil, it's part of crisis, part of self-questioning, part of life and part of being Christian. She is feeling as though God has given up on her or not kept up his sidde of the bargain. She resents him for putting her in this life; she's angry and lashing out. That's not evil, it is a clue to her emotional turmoil.
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SavingGrace,
Thanks. I feel all of those things - fearful that my friend isn't 100% in his right mind, and may end up blaming me - honoured that he would, ask me, concerned for him, inadequate because my marriage failed - as a Catholic.
My biggest problem is with the time commitment, because I have my children full time every other week, and would have to choose time with my friend or time with my children. Right now I feel that I have to spend it with them, but as a Catholic I feel called to help my friend. I'm trying to decide. If time wasn't an issue I'd stand by my friend, and stand by my faith. I just don't think it's practical or fair on my children and I to be apart for another night each week for 11 weeks.
I could talk to my friend about it, and I'm confident he would understand - he made that clear when he asked.
I don't resent the church. I sing and play music each week there - I pray, I have friends there. It is part of my culture and I suppose Self. I think like most people, I'm alarmed by the depth of abuses from the church, and wary of them. I've been fortunate to have been helped by the church and would never dissuade someone from showing an interest in joining, but I'd certainly be honest about my experiences and my doubts. I think that's what my faith teaches. It's how I was taught ( by priests ). I'd want him to understand that it's ok to question it too - and like anything else - I feel that it's up to each of us how we relate to it - it's not going to just solve problems for him.
I think that my friend is undergoing a midlife transition at least - which is why I posted on this thread about differences in men and women - because I feel that I've seen similarities in my wife and my friend - in the way they've coped with the loss of abusive parents, their monster/anger and the swing in my friend to embrace Catholicism. In all the time we've talked he has never mentioned it before. [ I do think there are differences in men and women too in MLC - but I think that there are remarkable overlaps in what I've seen here ].
DGU, I realize that RCR's writings were about Christians dropping belief - but I wonder if embracing religion is something that can happen too. I might be clutching at straws. My feelings are that mostly the change in personality/monster and depression are so very similar in both cases - and then swinging to a new religion seems huge to me.
bnw
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DGU, I realize that RCR's writings were about Christians dropping belief - but I wonder if embracing religion is something that can happen too. I might be clutching at straws. My feelings are that mostly the change in personality/monster and depression are so very similar in both cases - and then swinging to a new religion seems huge to me.
Sorry BNW, I misunderstood and don't know.
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BNW,
I think being honest to your friend will be your freedom and bring your answer you seek. I agree we all should be able to question our faith and even our spiritual leaders. We never should blindly follow. God gives us the gift of reason and knowledge to be able to discern what is right, good and holy. Not all things are good from the seat of the Catholic Church. The abuses and some of the American Catholic Churches stands have me upset and filled with grief. But we are all sinners and the church and every denomination is made up of sinful men and women so naturally we will see the results from such sin as power, corruption, pride, sexual abuse, etc... A tragedy but a very real outcome.
I don't know if your friend is lost and is searching for meaning in his life. If he is choosing the church instead of an affair to do so, the more power to him! He will walk this path maybe with another sponsor, but you can always be a faithful supporter of his journey and intrinsically in tuned with any MLT and possibly guide him in making right choices instead of any destructive choices, which we see here on the forum.
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I wonder if embracing religion is something that can happen too. I might be clutching at straws. My feelings are that mostly the change in personality/monster and depression are so very similar in both cases - and then swinging to a new religion seems huge to me.
Well, I think this would be common for a non-crisis level midlife transition. But there are some MLCers who explore religions as well. But is their exploration really a part of Escape & Avoid? I think it often is if they are in crisis. Often they are just Aimless Wanderers searching for something to cling to someting that will save them and they are wanting it to be like a magic cure. Yes, faith is about surrender and all that, but think of the Zen proverb:
Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water.
An MLCer who uses religion in their search will be expecting the wood to get chopped and the water to be carried for them after they "accept" the new faith.
I recall one example specifically from DB. One LBSs MLCer had been all over the place with weird behaviors and one days she posted that we would not believe what he was now doing--the post had a lot of laughing and rolling eye emoticons through out and she ended with the surprise...he's becoming Mormon.
I don't know that he stuck to it for even a week--I lost track because that was so far into his crisis that I think she was no longer Standing and thus not posting much and may have stopped soon after that. But what was scary about him was that he was young--34 or a bit younger at Bomb Drop--and he was a physician.
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FWIW, I do think that swinging towards a religion is just as possible as moving away from one. I think that when it's going for something as serious as the Catholic faith it's probably seen differently as when someone embraces an alternative "kooky" therapy or faith, but the underlying reasons may well be the same. Like RCR says, they expect that when they fully "accept" this new (new to them, that is) faith or doctrine or whatever, that all problems will miraculously be solved.
My MLCer went in the kooky direction for the first few years of this, btw. But he also turned away from his more traditional faith, which is more "normal", according to Conway, et. al.