Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on March 18, 2013, 02:56:47 PM
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To all,
The previous thread had grown to 18 pages.
Here is RCR's original post, from the previous thread, on the purpose and use of this discussion topic.
Discuss away!
previous threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2738.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2220.0
The Mentor Team has been discussing things we can do to improve the Mentor Program. We are kicking a few ideas around the brainstorm and this thread is one of the best ideas. I don't know how it will evolve and so this will be a test for the first little bit.
Post links to your threads or to information on another thread if they are relevant. If something goes off tangent, we may split those posts away into a Topic thread--nothing wrong with that, it's how some topics get started!
Edit: I think it may also be a good idea if you are responding to Start your post with the Reply # and Display Name from the post to which you are responding. I suggest you include the Display Name because we might come through and clean up unnecessary posts from time-to-tim and the Reply# will then change. If you are posting a new question, say that at the beginning.
So your opening will liook like one of these two things:
Replay# X, Kikki
OR
New Question
It will give an opportunity for you to interact with someone other than your assigned mentor and to have quick questions asked--maybe like an FAQ. It may also be a good way to let a mentor know that you need attention. The mentors also liked it because they can pop-in quickly and look here to see if any matters are pressing.
I would also like to come up with a better system to match mentors to mentees. Now, though I sometimes notice a fit, I usually go down the list and see who has the fewest mentees and assign that way--not very personal. :P So this may or may not help newbies get to know each mentor's style--we will see.
Either way, I'm excited about it! 8) ;D
So ask away...
I may edit this introduction as we tinker with this thread direction.
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Help. Can someone go to Garden's thread & advise on 'liminality'. Not sure if I have the wrong end of the stick or tunnel. ;)
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3266.new#lastPost
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I have a question.
My H looks completely normal these days. Monster is gone, projections are gone, his crazy behavior has gone, next month he is going to Italy with our girls. But he is still living with OW and I don't see any signs of him having insight in his FOO or whatever caused his MC.
Last night he told me a story about a woman who went completely mad one day to another and was hospitalized for that, and how terrible that was for her and her husband. I was flabbergasted. Is it possible that they don't remember a thing of what they have done??? For about two years we had been dealing with all his craziness, and now he doesn't remember a thing??? Moreover he finished the conversation by stating that he is having a fantastic life at the moment (which I know is not true).
If this is really true, and he doesn't remember anything anymore, it would mean that this is it I guess and that Standing is no longer an option.
Does anybody recognizes this???
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Is it possible that they don't remember a thing of what they have done???
Absolutely, it is perfect;y normal for them not to remember anything that has happened .
They were stuck in the FOG.
Sounds like he still is in the FOG although maybe it has changed and shifted from the previous two years.
For about two years we had been dealing with all his craziness, and now he doesn't remember a thing??? Moreover he finished the conversation by stating that he is having a fantastic life at the moment (which I know is not true).
If this is really true, and he doesn't remember anything anymore, it would mean that this is it I guess and that Standing is no longer an option.
Does anybody recognizes this???
No - STANDING is always an option.
He is still in REPLAY and it is morphing and changing, why does this make YOU want to stop STANDING?
You can still not believe anything he says or more than likely anything he does.
Remember that they must go down every single cheesless tunnel searching for the one that will bring them happiness.
When in reality they forget to just look at themselves.
STANDING is for YOU!
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I second every word OP said. STANDING is for you Niek... let yourself heal. Leave him to his crisis. Stand until you don't want to stand, not because you figure he isn't EVER going to return to you.
Hugs Stayed
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Thanks OP and Stayed. Sometimes I forget that he is in MLC, that I shouldn't believe a word of what he is saying.
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Lol, I have my doubts you EVER FORGET he is in CRISIS... HEHEHE. Although it is very similar to being the biggest jerk on the face of the earth... so I could be wrong about that.. hehehe.
Stand for yourself girl. What your h is doing, done, going to do, is not the factor that should determine whether you continue to stand or not.
Hugs Stayed
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Lol, I have my doubts you EVER FORGET he is in CRISIS... HEHEHE.
Ha ha ha. You are right. LOL
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Re: Reply #7, Just Getting Stronger by Iamnottheenemy
Hi, I'd like to ask anyone and everyone to drop by my thread to give me advice, comments, suggestions on an e-mail.
H sent me a big "thinky" e-mail about two weeks ago, so I have the opportunity to plant some seeds in reply.
We are nine months post-BD.
Thanks!
IANTE
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Hi!
I read on here once some tips in talking with the MLCer. Rather than using "I" statements, it listed a bunch of "you" statements. Purpose being that MLCers don't care what you think/feel.
Could someone link me to that please? Being a therapist myself, I'm always advocating for "I" statements and use them myself regularly.
Gotta get new skillz!
Thanks!
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Hello Duthla, it is called Charging Neutral and here is the link http://www.break-free-from-the-affair.com/articlescharging_neutral.htm , it take a bit of time getting the hand of it, but it is SO EFFECTIVE. I love it, I find it handy in ANY situation when I need to STATE something, even sales clerks. hehehe.
hugs Stayed
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1149.msg177143#msg177143
If you scroll down to post #7, there's some more charging neutral information on there too.
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Thanks stayed and kikki! Much appreciated! :)
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Who ever thought they would find themselves here? Charging neutral! Let go! Detach! Pleasant but firm! UGHHHHHHHH!
hugs Stayed
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To anyone with prior experience, I have a question about beginning the legal separation process. My W has retained the services of a lawyer and put together a boilerplate, cookie-cutter separation agreement (everything split 50/50, including custody, house, assets). When I reviewed this document a couple months back, I told my W "no f@#$ing way" I was agreeing to this! I felt that we were so far apart on this! I've had my life ripped apart and the children are suffering immensely from her actions and selfishness and W wants to make this as simple as possible to alleviate her pain and suffering! I don't think so! >:(
Last week I received basically the same letter from her lawyer again about meeting to discuss the separation of assets. I have asked my W numerous time to openly explain to our D's what she is doing and why. I understanding W can't explain why (MLC) but she keeps stalling to do this. I want my D's to hear from W why she is planning on working in another state when she states the the children are her most important thing.
I particularly don't want to begin the legal process, because I feel in my heart deep down that once I begin this legal proceeding, I will quickly make it a business transaction, taking all the emotions out and thus my feelings for my W will dissolve rapidly. I do believe that I will use every means possible to get what legally I deserve, not for greed but if this is how she wants to move forward, then there will be a price to pay for the actions.
My question is should I wait for W to discuss the plans with my D's proving that she truly wants to move things in this direction before agreeing to meeting with lawyers to discuss the separation. Things around our house are amicable but I try to be as far away as possible during non-family time (dinners, activities). I feel this way W will be the one initiating things if she truly wants to proceed that way. There are signs that she may be blackmailed and manipulated by OM to speed up the process. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated and here's to everyone coming out of this period in their lives in a better place! :)
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To anyone with prior experience, I have a question about beginning the legal separation process. My W has retained the services of a lawyer and put together a boilerplate, cookie-cutter separation agreement (everything split 50/50, including custody, house, assets). When I reviewed this document a couple months back, I told my W "no f@#$ing way" I was agreeing to this! I felt that we were so far apart on this! I've had my life ripped apart and the children are suffering immensely from her actions and selfishness and W wants to make this as simple as possible to alleviate her pain and suffering! I don't think so! >:(
I would first and foremost get the advice of a lawyer on the agreement, and then retain him or her once things start rolling, if you feel that is in our best interest. I would guard you from thinking the legal system will help make you and your girls emotionally whole from this, that is not its job, but usually there is a degree of feeling better once you are represented. I feel we don't realize the intensity of the anxiety we experience waiting for the D shoe to drop until we don't have it anymore. Plus, if your MLCer has no financial integrity, this can help protect your family's assets.
Last week I received basically the same letter from her lawyer again about meeting to discuss the separation of assets. I have asked my W numerous time to openly explain to our D's what she is doing and why. I understanding W can't explain why (MLC) but she keeps stalling to do this. I want my D's to hear from W why she is planning on working in another state when she states the the children are her most important thing.
She is stalling because that's what MLCers do, but I don't think forcing it will have the effect you hope it will. She has no remorse right now, maybe not even overt guilt, so telling your girls something from her"MLC brain" about how she's going off to be happy without them will probably only serve to hurt them more and do nothing for her or her crisis. My advice would be to let this be.
I particularly don't want to begin the legal process, because I feel in my heart deep down that once I begin this legal proceeding, I will quickly make it a business transaction, taking all the emotions out and thus my feelings for my W will dissolve rapidly. I do believe that I will use every means possible to get what legally I deserve, not for greed but if this is how she wants to move forward, then there will be a price to pay for the actions.
It will and it won't. I've found more detachment since my H filed and I hired representation. I've benefited from having it in place because he's made bad financial moves since then that I won't be held accountable for. And it is, for the most part, a business transaction - I can attest that the emotions I do have are very separate and non-dependent on whether or marriage is legally ended or not. The benefits, for me, emotionally, have outweighed the negatives, and still not ended my stand. My L did explain to me that the courts aim to make things equitable, not punish my H, so keep in mind that you can request what you want, but that's probably more of a starting point in negotiating than where it may end up.
My question is should I wait for W to discuss the plans with my D's proving that she truly wants to move things in this direction before agreeing to meeting with lawyers to discuss the separation. Things around our house are amicable but I try to be as far away as possible during non-family time (dinners, activities). I feel this way W will be the one initiating things if she truly wants to proceed that way. There are signs that she may be blackmailed and manipulated by OM to speed up the process. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated and here's to everyone coming out of this period in their lives in a better place! :)
No doubt in my mind OM is steering the ship, and that's probably a big reason she doesn't want to make the commitment verbally to the girls. My H's OW is the one who forced him to file, too. It was 14 months post BD, he signed the papers on a day she was in town (and probably with him), even though he had supposedly had this L on retainer for over a month and was hardcore stalling picking up the information he needed from our home in order to get the ball rolling. Since I delivered the Discovery paperwork in November, there has been no movement in my case (in my state, it only takes 60 days to get in front of a judge). His mail still comes here - even new stuff, though he doesn't pick it up. They are just broken, controlled puppets at this point, who are afraid of pulling the plug for good.
My advice, and I have no children so this just comes from a place of gut feeling - consult an L to know what to expect should things move forward, keep doing the great job you're doing for all of your girls (including your W, who you are handling remarkably by giving her the space she needs), and trust the process with what she lets the girls know - don't hold it over her head unless you want it to be uglier. That remorse that you're looking for, if it is going to come, will be down the road. {{{hugs}}}
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I particularly don't want to begin the legal process, because I feel in my heart deep down that once I begin this legal proceeding, I will quickly make it a business transaction, taking all the emotions out and thus my feelings for my W will dissolve rapidly. I do believe that I will use every means possible to get what legally I deserve, not for greed but if this is how she wants to move forward, then there will be a price to pay for the actions.
Our legal separation was initiated Sept 2010 and finalized Nov 2011. I tried to make the process as lengthy as possible but he never waivered once. This is absolutely what he wanted and to this date he has never mentioned it but he was totally efficient at making all the transfers etc. The whole time was very painful.
I did have to think about it as a business transaction but my feelings have never dissolved for my husband. I think it must be very hard when the person doing the leaving also wants 50% of everything...there were times I was aghast that my husband would be so cold and calculating, he was the one who wanted out, I never and still do not.
Each person will have their own line in the sand for what they will and will not tolerate. Since in my heart, I know that nothing can separate what God has joined, we are one flesh and no legal document can change that. And there is no where on earth that he can run to that will change that. He gets what he wanted, but I don't see that it brought him any real happiness. It did give me the security I needed to plan my life.
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I have a question : Why they (MLCER) doesn't want to hurt the (OP) but capable of continuing to hurt the (LBS)? This made me sick.
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The MLCer has made the LBS the enemy, projecting all of their self-hatred and anger onto us. The OP validates this new, lower version of themselves. That's the psychological take. Chemically there's support for this, too. But this does little for our own emotional well being. Detach, try not to take any of it personally (easier said than done, I know).
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Thanks R2T, sometimes I forget he is in MLC and you are sooo right not take this personally.My MLCER wants to be responsible to his OW's life and irresponsible to me..this man don't care what will happen to his real and legal family, only worries about the situation of his "substitute family" (I wish I am wrong)...((((Hugs)))
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The MLCer has made the LBS the enemy, projecting all of their self-hatred and anger onto us.
Is true. My H once was yelling at me: 'I was the love of your life, and now I am your biggest enemy.'
Talking about projection.
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Is it normal MLC (wow, is that ever a contradiction in terms!) for an MLC'r to have grandiose visions of what they want to do? My H wants (and thinks he can get to) the top of a profession that has never been a career for him. AND he wants to START at the top and not at the bottom.......is this part of looking for the ONE thing that will make him happy?
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Is it normal MLC (wow, is that ever a contradiction in terms!) for an MLC'r to have grandiose visions of what they want to do? My H wants (and thinks he can get to) the top of a profession that has never been a career for him. AND he wants to START at the top and not at the bottom.......is this part of looking for the ONE thing that will make him happy?
This is a big part of it, and very much proof of crisis. Hoss went from running a multimedia company with me, to starting a guitar repair shop, to becoming an insurance salesman, to now being a trailer mechanic (if he still does that) - all in less than two years. His 'big dream' now is to be a farmer. ??? Before, it was rock star. Several times in between there have been other little "mini career aspirations" within his reenacting, like being an old timey tailor, running a gentlemen's accoutrement shop, blacksmithing, gun building, etc. I got me a "dreamer".
My advice is to validate that this is his dream, whatever it is (no doubt it is outlandish and takes no consideration to a 3-5 year start-up time for anything, even in the best of situations, or the responsibilities and skills he currently already has). But safeguard funds and set boundaries where your couple assets or lifestyle could be laid on the line for this, because in my experience, odds are very, very good that this "dream" will change within 6 months, once the high from having "the solution to his problems" starts to fade.
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Thank you R2T. Its comforting to know that he is still following script. He wants to be the Fire Chief. ::) I validated his ideas and plans as they don't put our finances or lifestyle at risk. We shall see. He is ticking off the search for happiness.
OW. Check, No satisfaction there
Left family. Check. No happiness there.
New friends. Check. Hmmmm, not working
New job. Check. Not satisfied with that either.
Turning back on God. Check. not sure how that's working for him right now.
I think the only thing that is keeping him from becoming a vanisher is our S10. He is still maintaining a R with him as best as he can.
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I'd just like to add to the conversation, about the grandiosity of the MLC ego.
My H is creative in his work, and has always been very modest about it all.
At BD, the egocentricity that poured from him was extreme.
It was very shocking and troubling. A complete 180 of who he had been.
It has taken a long while - but his ego seems to be well in check again these days, most of the time.
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Can somebody explain this? My aunt with a previous MLCer many years ago told me this, according to my uncle "The responsibility and the promises he made to the weak and needy OW kept pullng him back though deep inside his heart,he desperately wants to come home making him stayed longer than he wanted to."He said he looked around and he saw my aunt, his wife very strong and so he felt responsible to the weak and helpless OW. I dont want to confide so much with my relatives even though they go through the same with this, I know they are hurt and actually they told me , seeing this happened to me again, this is so hard to watch, though they should understand my H, it's still hard and painful.
sometimes I get what he said, sometimes not. This mess extremely painful for me and my two young boys plus another child is involved, its not the OW only. God helped me.
More power to my fellow LBS.
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I've just been reading through Eternity's Coaching thread. RCR explains this well there.
The coaching archives are also on the subscribers boards.
Hope this helps :)
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Thank you Kikki. I will read there .
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I have a question. What are the signs that an MLCer is starting to exit the tunnel? I know everyone is different but would just like to know if there are things in their behavior that would be a sign.
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I'd just like to add to the conversation, about the grandiosity of the MLC ego.
My H is creative in his work, and has always been very modest about it all.
At BD, the egocentricity that poured from him was extreme.
It was very shocking and troubling. A complete 180 of who he had been.
Same for Mr J. He turned into a walking over extreme ego. Phew... ::) ::) ::)
"The responsibility and the promises he made to the weak and needy OW kept pullng him back though deep inside his heart,he desperately wants to come home making him stayed longer than he wanted to."He said he looked around and he saw my aunt, his wife very strong and so he felt responsible to the weak and helpless OW.
Haven’t read Eternity's Coaching thread but I think this is not far from the truth:
The wife is very strong, she does not need him. Needy, weak OW, need him. Also, straong wife may not want messed up, weak MLCer but the needy, weak OW does not mind.
I have a question. What are the signs that an MLCer is starting to exit the tunnel? I know everyone is different but would just like to know if there are things in their behavior that would be a sign.
Leaving behind replay behaviour and friends, start to look more openly depressed, start to be able to see what they have done. Even if just a little bit of the mess they have caused.
Your BD was short for MLC time frame. It is unlikely your husband is already coming out of his tunnel but it may happen.
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I have a question. What are the signs that an MLCer is starting to exit the tunnel? I know everyone is different but would just like to know if there are things in their behavior that would be a sign.
Ehill, our BD were close in timeframe. I can see that H are now depressed but still making new sets of friends,mostly girls who are needy, trying to fool the world that he is deliriously happy. He is talking more of GOD :o :), like he is aware now that his doings aren't acceptable to God...he monstered at me before I went no contact....I have no idea what stage can we definitely say that they are getting out of Replay, hard, but I learned not to pay any mind of any of it...Before, I am super duper obsessed. It doesn't matter what stage he is or isn't at. He is bat$hit crazy and the best thing I can do, is get the hell away from him...not waste my energy thinking of where he is, what he is doing or not, just heal and get over him....
AnneJ- (This helps a lot!) Leaving behind replay behaviour and friends, start to look more openly depressed, start to be able to see what they have done. Even if just a little bit of the mess they have caused.
Your BD was short for MLC time frame. It is unlikely your husband is already coming out of his tunnel but it may happen.
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Thanks Ladies,
He has left behind those friends and is leaning back more toward the old ones. He keeps apologizing for what he has done to hurt me. Keeps telling me he just doesn't know what to do. Says he can't seem to be in control of anything including himself. I know I just have to stop worrying about him and concentrate on me but we all know how hard it is to watch the person you love more than anything be hurting so badly.
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This just came to me whilst reading a post.
Our spouses ask us to be their best friend/buddy are they actually asking us to be their alter ego, their split self and if so what could this mean.
We know ow/om is the anima/animus guide so what could it be they need from the alter ego/friend/buddy.
I havent really allowed my h to keep a very close friendship as it hurt too much with ow and I am wondering if he has put our sons into this role instead as he sees them as his mates, he refers to them as mate.
Any ideas anyone ?
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CrazyJourney - this is a very good point.
Goes along with the MLC depression sign #1 where they see us as an extension of themselves.
But then they project all of their rubbish onto us too though - so maybe this waxes and wanes.
Part of the mate thing with the sons is the regression in maturity from what I've seen.
My H has been in and out of our home a lot - and while I would never consider that we are 'friends' - I am sure he views me as something like this.
Every few weeks he is desperate to have a long talk to me. I don't hold back with the truth rockets (now that we are 3.5 years post BD).
Maybe he views me as his conscience?? I definitely get a sense that without these talks he would be causing far more havoc out there and spin far more than he already is.
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Good question, Crazyjourney.
Think what they need from the alter ego/friend/buddy is someone they know, trust, and will nod their head to everything they do. They expect us to accept (in the sense of agree) with everything they do and want.
They also want us to allow them to remain close to us, be intimate with us, they want to keep what they perceive as the good things they have with us without any responsability.
Would say the role of alter ego/friend/buddy is better left to some lifelong friend of the MLCer who is capable of enduring the crisis or some MLC friend/buddy.
Doubt if we stay their nodding, I'll agree with all you want mate they will respect us when their crisis is over.
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Kikki and AnneJ
Thank you for your replies.
My sons also work for h and I do feel they pick up a lot of loose ends especially things he forgets, one of the things he asked of me in the early days was to keep him focused.
He definately wanted to be one of the young ones and hang out with sons but also seems to use youngest as a compass maybe, youngest son has been more understanding toward him which is why he has been the choice I think, but will also stand his ground with him and keeps him right in a roundabout way.
I think I have just realised this, food for thought isnt it.
x
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My H now stalling the divorce ... Wanting to talk to me for the first time in seven months ... I sense he is resurfacing ... He says he now wants 'peace' in his life, not the excitement he demanded 13 months ago. What is all this about? thank you.
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Hard to tell, Lovely1. Some MLCers come and go, resurface and dissapear again. Other start to get out of crisis sooner but 13 months post BD it would be rare for a crisis to be ending.
Maybe your husband is not pleased with his new life and is wanting to get back to see how it feels.
If you're fine with it, let him talk to you and tell you what he wants/is thinking about doing.
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I think the legal process is a bit of a reality check - even my "vanished" H has been stalling the D in his own ways (though I'm sure he's not ready to admit that. ;) ). I truly hope it's given him a bit of a wake up call, and I'm with Anne - it's up to you if you're interested in seeing where his head is. I would keep expectations low, but as someone going through a D - I would listen. Even though it's just a piece of paper, there is so much money, red tape, and drama that a D encompasses. If there was a chance of saving the marriage before it all happened, I'd try.
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Hmmmm...this all gets me thinking (probably shouldn't). XW started the D process in May 2011 and in our state we only had to be separated 2 months for it to be final, yet she drug her feet considerably and did very little for the first year and a half. It wasn't until October of 2012 that she scheduled mediation and signed everything over, then stalled again until January to file to have it finalized. I wonder if I had opportunities to possibly save it during that time and if she was perhaps waiting for me to do so, and now my window of opportunity has closed. Not a good thought....
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He seems to have landed on the excuse that the reason he left was because living with my Mom was intolerable. I guess that gives you license to have an affair (or several) abandon your wife, abandon your child and not pay child support. Is this still MLC? Do normal people do this?
I guess I'm just looking for a little reassurance today. My Mom's stroke has left ME a little wobbly! Thanks!
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Sounds like a typical MLC comment to me SF ... Normal people would never say /do that.
Any excuse they can find will do .. Doesn't seem to matter what, or how hurtful.. You know it's not true, hope your mom is ok xxxx
Take care X
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thank you Ready2 Transform and AnneJ. I think we are a fair few months away from the crisis starting to end ... but I think H is having bitter quarrels with OW, and is starting to look at his old life again. He says he feels 'hugely guilty' now, and has asked me for the first time in 13 months how I am feeling. I said that I had been thru a lot of pain but a few days on I feel so so angry. When he talks, he asks me why this A happened, that there must have been something wrong in the marriage. I told him there was little wrong in the marriage but that as soon as he had his own flat in the city that he lost his head. He agreed.
I wonder now whether there was something wrong in the marriage, and this is an A and not an MLC.
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HI - I'd just like to ask anyone out there if there is a kind of 'severity' scale to this awful thing - I know this experience is horrendous for all involved but I've seen on other posts on here, it seems some of the people in MLC actually voice their moments of regret - ie in kk's post above 'I only said those things to get out' or they come back to the marital home, albeit briefly. Well my H has never said anything like that at all - he continues to go down the same path that I am 'no good' and I just wonder if that means anything. Does that mean a bigger crash at the end?
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Panda
Each situation is the same but different. There is a script but they use it in various ways. What would be a blip for you maybe a major tsunami for someone else. That's why her is no gauge on the depth or length of MLC.
Your H may well be trying o convince you to leave or divorce him as then he would e free to follow his dream. Or he does have some insight into this mess. Either way none of us know what the end looks like. Keep moving forward ;)
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And now I hear that the OW is leaving the country to work abroad for six months ... it is the beginning of the end for H and OW I feel.
Waiting to hear from H ... have told a few friends but not the children.
Feel I have run a marathon and ready to collapse. Have turned to praying. I am not strong enough for this any more. I am putting our marriage in God's hands. Never thought I would say that.
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Lovely
Don't assume anything. OW's move abroad may heighten their fantasy world because of her being 'out of reach'. It may give your MLCer a buzz. Even if this one is over your H is unlikely to give up the heady days of replay yet.
Although you have started your marathon there are many corners yet to go round. Sorry just want you to protect yourself. He has to complete this journey and there are no short cuts.
If you hand him over to God get out of God's way and drop the rope and live your life for you and the children. Then He can work on your H unhindered ;)
Hugs
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Lovely1,
I would second what Justasking has posted above.
My experience with H's OW1 was that he broke up 3 times. The first time he told me they had and then the kids noticed he took everything he stored at her place, back to his little bungalow (Bedsit). It also appeared to me it was the end (I posted on here about it) but a week or 2 later they were back in full force. The second time he didn't tell me. it was a longer break (about a month) and again seemed final. However, they were back on again. The final break cam and it wasn't long before he was noticed by the kids to be texting all the time. yep, a few weeks later he announced he had an OW2.
Sorry this may not seem like a positive story but you really don't know what's going on. It can take multiple breakups for the final one to blow. No expectations, as they say.
Handing it over to God is a good thing. I did that with my finances on day one when H left and although I live from pay to pay, I am never without and I don't feel the need to worry.
Hugs,
SP
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Thank you so much Stillpraying and Justasking.
You are right. It could be a temporary bust up. Although she is not the sort of girl to hang on in there if he is not buying them a flat, getting a D, not spending money on her, seeing a lot of his children etc etc. And there have been many arguments between them recently, and he has got sick of being controlled. I feel it may have burnt out; it was just about sex and a 'fantasy life'.
She says that she got too much hostility from everyone ie MIL and FIL.
My H, however, told me last week that he 'wants peace' (ie what he found in me) and not 'excitement', which he wanted three months ago.
I feel terrible and exhausted. Will leave in God's hands, I no longer have the strength. Hugs.
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It still hurts.
I am giving H about two to three weeks to work things out and contact me. At least to start a reconnection...
My timelines are normally quite accurate.
OW looked very flat today; her peachiness and perkiness have gone. I am pretty sure this is the beginning of the end, if not the end for them. Why has H told his mother it is nearly the end, and not me?
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Keep in mind that the end of their relationships do not always equate a reconnection with us - at least not right away. You will only know in looking back when replay has ended. You had said in an earlier post here that you were putting your marriage in God's hands, and that is a really good plan. He knows the ultimate outcome and timeframe for everything. Let that help you keep the focus on yourself for now. {{{hugs}}}
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I'd like to echo what Ready2 has posted.
My H's first "schmoopie" OW (his ex-wife from 35+ years ago) was over as he walked out the door back in August of 2010. Not sure what happened (he would never admit it) - but I believe she was never interested in anything longterm with H and ended it early after he left his family "for her."
All my H did was try to find a replacement. He attempted to revitalize his relationship with his high school girlfriend (so MLC...and so pathetic). That didn't work..and it seems he finally found a willing OW (#3, by my count) back in August of 2011 (the month he asked for a divorce).
The OW is merely a symptom of MLC...not the cause. Just because the alienator relationship ends (and that is a question, as well, as many are on again/off again for some time before it "sticks") does not mean that the MLCer will go to the next stage.
I guess that is why we are told to focus on ourselves and our families. Watching the MLCer can be misleading...and very frustrating.
Limitless
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Why has H told his mother it is nearly the end, and not me?
RCR's article MLCers Run Even When The Alienator is Gone may provide some insight.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
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I am so touched that you have all responded.
Thank you so much R2T, limitless and dontgiveup.
I understand that my H may still be in Replay (though pretty sure nights out with the boys and parties etc will wane eventually). I doubt he will find another OW altho if he does it will be pretty short. It was always about whether he went with OW or stayed with us. OW was so'different' from me ... well it has caused him much pain. I doubt whether he will go along with someone similar to her again ... and someone different from her is of course me!!
I think H may be going into withdrawal. He is asking a lot of questions (to me and others) about why this happened.
I think he is in still in MLC and trying to work it out.
Thank you very much for the link. I will continue to remain calm and not initiate contact. He described me ten days ago as 'strong, dignified and noble' and I will try to continue to be so even though I have terrible moments of utter despair.
What I also need to work out is whether the future H is really the right man for me, but I guess that will take time and lots of conversations...
Still don't get why he has told his Mother. She was also the first person he told (before he told me) that he was leaving me ... Maybe he doesn't yet know how he feels about me etc and so is thinking about it all.
I would like to help him get through this emotional stage.
My sister had a dream that he was lying dehydrated and shrivelled in a foetal position and everyone was panicking except me who told everyone to remain calm and that I could handle it!
I think there are a fair few months left of this MLC but not much more than that before he attempts reconnection ... and then the MLC journey I presume will continue with me by his side.
But maybe I am second guessing too much!
In the meantime I leave it in God's hands!
Hugs to all.
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Lovely
Withdrawal can be seen throughout the process of MLC. Your H is still in replay and therefore a long long way from the withdrawal stage. He is most definitely in MLC................. His quietness is because he has split with OW and he will be grieving over the lost relationship.
IMO you are also seeing a touch and go. During these times they have moments to weeks of insight and questions and then run again.
As to whether he will find another OW, well that is in his control and not yours unfortunately. You are making lots of assumptions about what your H will and will not do. We as LBS have no control over them.
My H left in Sept and I was convinced that he would be home by New Year. He too had talked about how we had got here, where he needed to go and was very withdrawn and depressed. That was 4 years ago.
Drop the rope completely. Get out of God's way and let the process complete in it's own time. At the moment you are over analysing what is happening and will potentially get hurt unless you protect your heart and detach from his emotional rollercoaster. We have all had that happen to us.
If he talks validate his feelings etc. But be prepared for him to run and hide again. As for telling his mother it's nearly the end that could mean anything. The last person any MLCer will tell anything to is the LBS. That in itself tells me he has a long way to go.
Sorry for such a negative reply. I only want you to look after yourself and move forward for you. Both of you have a long road ahead at the moment.
Hugs
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Hi, wondering if someone could please pop over to my thread where I posted a question. I think My D11 is going to face a situation of meeting OW for the first time since H admitted relationship unless I can get some boundaries in place that H will respect(D11 already knows OW as she has been H secretary for some years)
I have posted a draft email and hoping please for any feedback/suggestions/other ideas before I send it.
Any help much appreciated...LLL
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3399.msg213608#msg213608
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Keep in mind that the end of their relationships do not always equate a reconnection with us - at least not right away. You will only know in looking back when replay has ended. You had said in an earlier post here that you were putting your marriage in God's hands, and that is a really good plan. He knows the ultimate outcome and timeframe for everything. Let that help you keep the focus on yourself for now. {{{hugs}}}
Ready2Transform.... Can you say more about what you mean by 'only know in looking back when Replay has ended??' I thought we'd know but seeing them tumble into Liminality, but maybe Replay behaviours change?
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From what I understand, many times there will be touch and goes that look a lot like they are entering liminality (this happened with my H in December 2011). Several posters in reconnection, and RCR and stayed have also stated this in regards to their reconciliatons. I know there is a quote in the articles that states this better than I did, but I'm having a hard time finding it right now. I did find this, which I think also fits:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay_stage-obsession.html
If your MLCer seems depressed it does not mean they are finally going to hit rock bottom and be in Liminal Depression. They could be a Low-Energy Wallower, but Replay is resilient and like all of MLC it includes cycling moods and behaviors.
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When my cousin who had MLC reached Liminal Depression it was different from all is previous “going down”. My cousin was a wallower and his crisis was mild compared with most of our MLCers.
In Liminal Depression he broke, he literally could not move, speak, react. There was not an ounce of energy left for any MLC behaviour. My cousin had been “dead” for nearly three months. He has “wake up” from that vegetative state late August 2011.
After he “wake up” from that vegetative state, some behaviours that seemed similar to the previous one remained, and there was a peek of euphoria. But my cousin finally accept to stick to one doctor, start to talk about his depression, how he never wanted to go back to that dark place.
It is different and we will know when we see it.
My husband has been depressed (and in Replay) for years. Many times he seemed to be near the end and it looked impossible to carry on. But he is a very high energy Replayer and managed to sustain Replay behaviour for ages. OW1 has been out of the picture for over 5 years, OW2 has been in place for more than 4 years. OW2 currently lives and works abroad. Mr J fuel to Replay is not OW but is clubbing and DJ activity and is clubbing mates.
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H had his first 'nice' chat (alone in the house together) with D16 today ie the first one in several months where she has not cried afterwards ... They talked about news items, her exams, her future prospects ...
As he says goodbye he tells D16 that 'we are going to get through this'...
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As he says goodbye he tells D16 that 'we are going to get through this'...
Lovely1,
This is a great sign in my mind, him using the word "we" and expressing about getting "through this..." That may be a breakthrough but it could also be trying to hang on while he continues his MLC journey. Only you and your daughter know the intended meaning. Continued success and progress! (Hugs) :)
Bailmor
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IMO I think for your H it was a small moment of clarity for him and his D. He had had a very positive interaction with his D and felt that. His focus is on their relationship at the moment and unfortunately it may slide again before their relationship is completely restored.
Hugs
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Thank you for replying justasking and bailmor. It is so nice to know that someone is out there and reading my posts!
H is 50 today. The OW had bought plane tickets three months ago to take him abroad for a surprise weekend. Obviously v keen early on that she whip him away from under our noses, just in case we had plans for him for his 50th ... She is insecure about us.
Anyway, he told me two and a half months ago how much he was 'dreading the sadness surrounding my birthday', so no surprise that he rang today at 9.30am sounding as though, as D16 said, he was 'about to burst into tears'. I saw his number come up on the machine and didn't want to talk to him. I am furious with him. And her. What are they doing celebrating together in a no-hope relationship such a big number? I have done so much for him/with him in 20 years, and celebrated every birthday ...
The children rang and sang happy birthday at 6.30pm but left it on his answer machine on his phone ... He has not yet rung back.
He also mentioned that he was coming back tomorrow. D16 said it sounded as though he didn't want to be over there.
Let's hope this is the last holiday they have together ... I give him two more months to come to his senses...
The last convo I had with him, he said he didn't feel right being in our family, and being in the part of the country where we live. I think he has had enough of OW, but needs to feel right about being back with us again ... Here's hoping.
Funningly enough, I feel as though my soul is starting to heal. Do I want him back? On new terms please. Or I will find someone else. The future no longer frightens me.
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I have a question.
I took this from the thread titled:
Discussion topic for the Veterans and especially those in Mental Health
RCR wrote this and it stood out to me and I'd like some clarification.
She said: Ex. I am not a fan of No Contact, I prefer Dark and sometimes it is in effect No Contact without the official boundary. I also don't advocate pursuing. That doesn't have to go with maintaining No Contact and yet sometimes the two get associated together.
I'd like to know in what way and/or how do we manage this? I mean, in what way and how are we to contact the MLC'er and how often? Or is this not meant that we, the LBS, should contact them but just respond as they contact us? I'm slightly confused. Many on the forum have stressed no contact as it appears to be pursuing.
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LoveMyMan,
I think this is how I am with my h.
I do not initiate contact. I just respond if contacted. In my case it is practically No Contact because he is not interested in contacting me.
Even if I have issues (behavioural) with the kids, I don't contact him, I have learnt the hard way that there is no use in it, I just get blamed or criticized :( and NOTHING is solved. Fortunately the kids are all old enough for me to do this.
It is definitely better for me and it is what he wants. It is probably more comfortable for OW, too :-\
For me, it is a way of respecting his wishes and keeping out of the way of nastiness. He definitely does not want a relationship with me at the moment.
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I agree that you should let them control the CONTACT.
Remember that RCR's history was with a clinging boomerang, with a vanisher or a low energy it is possible that you will have no contact by default.
You do not want to pursue, IMHO.
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RCR wrote this and it stood out to me and I'd like some clarification.
She said: Ex. I am not a fan of No Contact, I prefer Dark and sometimes it is in effect No Contact without the official boundary. I also don't advocate pursuing. That doesn't have to go with maintaining No Contact and yet sometimes the two get associated together.
I'd like to know in what way and/or how do we manage this? I mean, in what way and how are we to contact the MLC'er and how often? Or is this not meant that we, the LBS, should contact them but just respond as they contact us? I'm slightly confused. Many on the forum have stressed no contact as it appears to be pursuing.
No Contact is a boundary--a rule. So if your MLCer contacts you--he calls--you let it go to voice mail. Dark is not a boundary, so if your MLCer contacts you, maybe you will answer--though sometimes you will still let it go to voice mail.
When working with the Boundary, your MLCer needs to know that this rule is in place because the idea is that he is not supposed to call you at all (unless it's an emergency). But we know how MLCers are with supposed to sort of stuff. ;)
No initiating by you though.
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Thank you....Mitzpah, Old Pilot......And RCR! I really appreciate you all clarifying this for me.
I'm not sure I can classify my MLC'er as a vanisher or not. I've learned a slight pattern in his contact with me. As long as he is involved with an OW he tends to be far away and not much contact.....but when he's been in between OW's he tends to contact me more. He is with OW #3 for the second time now. The first go with her was very short lived but he recently hooked back up with her. She is 10 yrs. older and I believe he only hooked back up with her because she was available as the other two had moved on and now have other relationships. This OW was an easy bandaid for him to apply. I hope and pray she starts peeling off.
RCR, you wrote what I had been thinking about no contact but I wasn't sure and so I needed to get verification.....so, I thank you. There are seldom times either of us communicate but on occasion such as the vacation property incident I have to contact him. I have learned not to reply to things he just forwards to me from the Board of the vacation property.....especially since he doesn't address me or anything. I have learned so much from this forum and feel so thankful for it being here for us.
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Hi all.
I'd just like a little more clarification on no contact being a boundary and a rule.
My H shows up each weekend to mow the yard. He is cycling away now and it appears that he has finally moved in with the OW. We are 1 year post BD. At what point in time do I say "As long as you live with OW and are committing adultery, do not come to the house?".
Under what conditions does one initiate No Contact?
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Not to interrupt but I have a weird question. Sometimes I will be reading through the posts and will come upon some where people are really crying out for help repeatedly and no one else seems to be on yet or noticing. The other night one poor person had mentioned having no reason to live and thinking about not continuing on anymore. I read up and it wasn't the first time this was mentioned. I try to say something to at least bump the thread but am really worried about saying the wrong thing. One of my deficits is that I'm not one of those warm and comforting people people. Not to pass the buck but is there anyone to alert if we feel someone is in serious trouble and needs more experienced help?
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Not to interrupt but I have a weird question. Sometimes I will be reading through the posts and will come upon some where people are really crying out for help repeatedly and no one else seems to be on yet or noticing. The other night one poor person had mentioned having no reason to live and thinking about not continuing on anymore. I read up and it wasn't the first time this was mentioned. I try to say something to at least bump the thread but am really worried about saying the wrong thing. One of my deficits is that I'm not one of those warm and comforting people people. Not to pass the buck but is there anyone to alert if we feel someone is in serious trouble and needs more experienced help?
Not a weird question - I have wondered the same thing.
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SK, This should be the thread where you get quick responses but if you're worried about someone you can pm one of the mentors or anyone you know who's online. You can respond with just, thinking of you if you don't have an answer. Or ask them a question.
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We have many threads and it is not easy to know what is going on with every member at any given time.
Calamity has good advice. I would sugest PM a mentor or someone else that is omline. If the PM goes to a mentor that is not online it may only be seen many hours latter.
And anyone that notices those situations could post what Calamity sugests.
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Thank you AnneJ and Calamity. It does get overwhelming to keep up with the threads. I had forgotten about checking to see who was on line and available.
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Another thing that can be done in such situations is to go the chat on the alt, see who is there and ask them for help. Normally there is always someone on the chat.
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Hi all.
I'd just like a little more clarification on no contact being a boundary and a rule.
My H shows up each weekend to mow the yard. He is cycling away now and it appears that he has finally moved in with the OW. We are 1 year post BD. At what point in time do I say "As long as you live with OW and are committing adultery, do not come to the house?".
Under what conditions does one initiate No Contact?
Hi Dancing
This is such a personal thing, and you will get a variety of responses here, from different people.
Personally, I would still allow my H to come to mow the yard. It keeps him connected to your house and it is helping you.
If you don't want to be there when he comes, then you could be busy elsewhere, otherwise be busy at your house - polite but detached, leave the conversation first, that kind of thing.
Others feel they can't stand to have any contact, and don't want their MLCers to help them. Whatever you decide, needs to be what is most comfortable for you - as it is still quite early days. I wouldn't shut him out for now - dark would be more appropriate in my opinion.
But at the end of the day - trust your intuition on this.
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I am not sure whether I am on the right thread here ... but I like updating on my situation with my H, and hearing the responses from the Mentors ... Let me know if I should go elsewhere!
We had our first family lunch together - it was S15's birthday - and it was fine. In fact my S15 said that it was though nothing has happened, and that H and I fit together 'like a jigsaw'.
I saw nothing really dark about my H, though he seems shamed and guilty and different.
I would like to think that OW is petering out, and that H is going into Withdrawal/Depression for a few months to sort out the mess he has made. I expect I will be told this is too early (!) but I would like to think so!
Thanks
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Sounds nice Lovely!
As long as you have no expectations that he is ending things, or coming out of it .... you can only see that with hindsight unfortunately.
But if you enjoyed the occasion, and your S did too, then that's good. No harm in it at all ... just guard your heart please.
My H seemed to be doing so well after OW1, he had even moved back in ... but then along came OW2, and it all went back to the beginning again. So just saying, enjoy each day as it comes, and guard your heart. xxxx
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Lovely
I would like to think that OW is petering out, and that H is going into Withdrawal/Depression for a few months to sort out the mess he has made. I expect I will be told this is too early (!) but I would like to think so!
It is and if you are liking to think so then you have an expectation and you leave yourself wide open to being hurt.
Musica is right. Enjoy the positives but read nothing into them and have no expectations.
Hugs
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Lovely1,
I think you and I are on about the same time frame in this craziness. We each look for signs that things have turned a corner and are on their way to reconnecting. At Easter my runaway worked his way in to family brunch with the boys and I. He seemed happy, like his old self, and even followed me around a bit. Soon thereafter, he pulled back and we didn't hear much from him at all. Now he seems deeper in the tunnel and making even worse decisions in terms of himself and OW. I kind of relate this to a giant pendulum that swings in one direction, but then has so much momentum that he swings back pretty far in the other direction. Hang in there. I hope your situation is different and that your runaway speeds through the tunnel...
DancingInTheRain
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Hi Dancing
I think it is interesting to see the giant pendulum swing. It helps you to try to understand what may be coming next ... which I find is the best way to deal with the future.
I think my OW is petering out ... and has made such immature and selfish demands (financial, time, cross when he sees the kids etc) that she has killed a lot of the passion off. I do half expect it to get back together again - it is too early for H to come home - but I imagine that OW won't take anything half baked from H. She wants the whole lot: divorce, his time, and she wants his family to simply evaporate. My H can't do/is better than that.
Anyway, at the same time I am now thinking Who Cares? I have had enough of brooding. I now try and do only things which help me. If it helps me to carve out a new and better life then I will do that. I think H has been uncool and unintelligent in his behaviour.
Hope you are okay.
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Lovely
She wants the whole lot: divorce, his time, and she wants his family to simply evaporate.
This ^^^^ is what all OW's want. That is why they are an affair down. That's why eventually they crushed the relationship given time ::)
Hugs
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Hey all! I'm trying to reference return stories right now where there was actually a finalized divorce. I know GBM was one - any others?
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DGU's friend, not on the forum.
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I personally know a couple (H w/ MLC when youngest son graduated high school) that divorced then remarried 2 years later.
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One couple in RL--big, messy divorce, scandal...back tog. after 8 years. I'm sure there are more, I've forgotten. FYI, If my h actually divorces me, I WON'T be marrying again [legally] not anyone even h. It's just paper--if you think you are married, you are.
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DGU's friend, not on the forum.
Yes, my friend's ex-wife returned about 4 months ago after nearly 5 years. She divorced my friend and married the alienator within a year of bomb drop.
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LoveMyMan,
I think this is how I am with my h.
I do not initiate contact. I just respond if contacted. In my case it is practically No Contact because he is not interested in contacting me.
Even if I have issues (behavioural) with the kids, I don't contact him, I have learnt the hard way that there is no use in it, I just get blamed or criticized :( and NOTHING is solved. Fortunately the kids are all old enough for me to do this.
It is definitely better for me and it is what he wants. It is probably more comfortable for OW, too :-\
For me, it is a way of respecting his wishes and keeping out of the way of nastiness. He definitely does not want a relationship with me at the moment.
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I wanted to just comment on this, I hope I don't "hijack" the thread by doing so..please forgive me, I'm a Newbie ;) My H spoke with me last night about our daughter, just turned 17, she has bi-polar disorder, one of the reasons why he left, because she wasn't "perfect' in his eyes..after 2 years since BD and working full time and raising her alone (I have had so many challenges with her, I should write a book), last night my H called (very infrequent..he's almost a "vanisher") ..he said to me, Well, we've tried almost everything.." and I said to him, "You mean, I have..you haven't been here at all!"..He then said, "Well, yes, but you know what I mean.." :o His OW sent my D home over the weekend with 2 large bags of Lays Chicken & Waffles potato chips, and fed her junk the whole day..which really affects her mental status, and goes against every nutritional good I am doing for her at home..so I wrote them both a short e-mail (something I have never done, ever..) and read them the riot act on how this affects her and me..She wrote me back and apologized, which I didn't respond to, but for God's sake, she has a 5 yr. old and a 13 yr. old..I appreciated her apology. Anyway..I found out that last night he got such a bad case of food poisoning (eats out everynight at restaurants ::))..karma is tough..the food I made for us when he was here for 20 years never hurt him,so sad!
I still stand, he seems commited to the cheating OW still, they don't live together, but gave us up for her and her childten..sigh.
Be Blessed,
1Cor.13
BD Aug 03, 2011
20 years married
OW..yes, began cheating w/ her 1 month before BD
Me: 55 yrs
Him: 48
D: 17
He doesn't seem the least bit sorry..but texts/calls me now & then wanting/giving "advice"
I politely let him know that as long as he's with her, it ain't happening..He is a person I don't recognize anymore..
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His OW sent my D home over the weekend with 2 large bags of Lays Chicken & Waffles potato chips, and fed her junk the whole day..which really affects her mental status, and goes against every nutritional good I am doing for her at home..so I wrote them both a short e-mail (something I have never done, ever..) and read them the riot act on how this affects her and me..She wrote me back and apologized, which I didn't respond to, but for God's sake, she has a 5 yr. old and a 13 yr. old..I appreciated her apology.
I think you did good!
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You are all right.
My H is cycling I think.
He is now asking me to sell the house. That came out of the blue.
I want to get on with my own life now. I am fed up with thinking about him and the OW all the time.
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Quick question.
My birthday is in a few days and H who still lives at home with me but is CB with MOW sent me a text telling me that our son's next appointment for counselling is on my birthday. Now he has never remembered my birth date in the past (it's a family joke). He then suggested that he take me out for lunch that day as part of my presents.
I don't think I want an actual gift from him as it is easy to stick your hand in your pocket out of guilt and buy something. The lunch might be him at least trying to spend a few minutes with me - maybe?
My question is - do I say that under the current circumstances lunch would be lovely but a gift is not really welcome. something like that??
My daughter has also arranged a family get -together and I am thinking that I should tell him and give him the option of coming along but because he wants to not because he ought to.
Wisdom required please?
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As far as the birthday lunch, I would accept (if you feel like it) but not say anything about a gift. You don't sound like that is important to you anyway, so whether he gives you one or not is in his court.
As far as the family get together, invite him if you want with no expectations if he will come or not and let him decide. MLCers as a rule don't do things just because they should, they do what they want. Otherwise, they would never be acting the way they are, right? ;)
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I agree with what Trusting said too. Happy Birthday to you xxx
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re Low energy wallowers - I think my H is one - BD 2/13 - keeps threatening to move out when he has enough money, OW in picture but still denies her existence/involvement. Doesn't seem to go out partying anymore like he used to pre BD. Seems to be at home more than ever despite not wanting to be here.
My question is, does a Low Energy Wallower need to leave in order to progress through this mess?
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My question is, does a Low Energy Wallower need to leave in order to progress through this mess?
Maybe, some do and some don't
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Panda, I have a low energy wallower. BD was 4 years and 3 months ago (but who's counting? :)) and he is still at home. He lives in the basement. He has never left but of course I realize that still could change as he is still in crisis. I hope he can make it all the way through without leaving but I don't really know.
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Trusting - thank you for sharing - is he still 'the same' as when he was at BD - did he have OW? Is he in replay still?
And here was me thinking my H might make it through in a year or so, but over 4 years!! How do you cope???!! Did your H threaten to leave?
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My husband was going to leave at the time of BD but didn't have anywhere else to go. He hasn't really said much about it since really, just once in awhile when he reminds me how bad our marriage was (definitely not true, BTW, I was there too). I suspect there has been/is/whatever an OW (almost 100% sure of at least a long distance EA at the time of BD). I don't know where exactly he is in the process. He is starting to show signs of life again though and there are some positive changes in him - not toward me yet really but some with the kids, the house, the dog, etc. Time will tell. I know he could leave at any time and will believe that until he expresses otherwise. I cope by praying a LOT. :) I personally have not felt that I should ask him to leave for various reasons (and I know not everyone here would agree with me). I learned to detach and just focus on me and the kids. It is difficult, but I know right now he can't and won't be my husband or be an active parent and when I am able to stay in that mindset it helps. Seeing glimpses of the "old" him now is making it harder to stay detached but I am working on it. :)
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Panda
Trusting has given you some brilliant advice about detaching etc.
It is my understanding that wallowers do walk through the tunnel unlike high energy MLCer who run full pelt and even run back again numerous times ;D
Don't worry about the future just live each day as it comes.
Hugs
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Seeing glimpses of the "old" him now is making it harder to stay detached but I am working on it. :)
What is interesting is that trusting and I are on the same timeline and have known each other for close to 4 years.
Our spouses are both low energy and mine left and hers stayed.
I think that it is possible that I am also hearing similar rumblings about recconection with my children.
Time will tell and although every journey is different it is eerily also very similar.
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I think that it is possible that I am also hearing similar rumblings about recconection with my children.
Time will tell and although every journey is different it is eerily also very similar.
Oh yeah? It will be interesting. We are both far enough along that it is possible to see something happening before too much longer. But then MLC takes forever so....
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Thanks trusting, justasking & oldpilot.... I was reading some of the info about wallowers and how they don't tend to have PA's and affair down. H is with a much younger OW who is single (as far as I know) and H seemed to be very high energy before BD and alot less so now. I assumed before he was a high energy replayer but now I assume a wallower because he is still here?
trusting - I am enlightened by your situation and how it varies also (oldpilot). I did not realise that these replay phases/MLC's took quite this long.
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Replay is the longest part, takes years usually. Stage watching I have found is futile. MLCers cycle so much and then just when you think you see forward progress they seem to go backwards. It is all part of the process. Also, the depression and withdrawal is present the whole way through, sometimes more obvious than others. They are in crisis and there isn't anything you can do about it so just trying to detach and not watch too closely is the best thing you can do (and believe me, I know how hard it is not to watch while they are in right in front of you).
FWIW, my husband sure seemed to be high energy for the months leading up to and right after BD. I saw it in bursts once in awhile after that but it really, really slowed down. His drug of choice to run and avoid since then for the most part has been workaholism and trying to keep busy with work projects.
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Hi trusting - was the same here with high energy prior to BD- except H seems to have almost immediately after BD given up on work - home earlier every night than he has EVER been - wants to sit in the lounge alot of the time vacant.
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Just curious, does anyone else get the "I don't have time for anything" from their MLCr? H is working fewer hours, has no child chores or responsibilities but can't seem to find the time to do even the simplest things for himself. Even for his job.......
Prior to MLC, he was a great multi-tasker and got things done. Now he can't keep anything together.
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Prior to MLC, he was a great multi-tasker and got things done. Now he can't keep anything together.
Well if you were depressed would you be able to get anything done?
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Slow Fade - Yes!!!! Seems to have great difficulty doing the simplest of tasks which was not the case prior to BD.
Its a shame they don't see this themselves.
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Mine has definitely gone the opposite route with trying to fill every second of his time so he doesn't have to think (and this actually came out of the horse's mouth a few months ago). Anything to do with the family or responsibility toward the kids or home doesn't fit into his schedule though.
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Mine is like Trusting one, he has time for much more work than before. He hardly ever stops and barely sleeps. And he has been at it for many, many years. The irony with mine is that now he has to take care of his and OW2 flat (she has been living and working abroad for a while) and everything that needs to be done. So much for not wanting responsibility... He also has to take care of sending his stuff to the accountant (I used to do it for the both of us/joint projects) and a few other things. No, I'm not planning to give him a hand.
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My H has an appliance recycling business on top of his regular job. He gets calls to pick things up from customers. Refrigerators and AC units have to have the Freon removed before recycling. This business was something he wanted to do but now he doesn't seem to be able to keep up with the work load. He has often said he has a lot of work to do. He used to spend many extra hours doing all of this but now he can't keep up.
He happened to mention this to me once awhile ago and I went to his shop one time and it was a mess. His camper is a mess too and his shop was always very organized.
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I desperately need a mentor.
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I need some help on how to let my H know thai am "standing". As far as I know H hasn't been to see an attorney. In the first weeks after BD, my sisters fussed at me for not seeing a lawyer, so I did. I was so furious at him I sent a text telling him we could get an uncontested divorce for about $2500, but I expected him to pay for it. That infuriated him. He had a a bitter, expensive divorce from is first wife. That night we talked about it and he said I was crazy and that I was misled because I needed to actually file, blah, blah, blah. A couple of days later he said he looked it up on the web and saw that it is pretty easy to get one if you do not have kids. Since then I have gone to see another attorney and told my H. Happened to be the same day he had his awakening at work about what he had done to his career. He was really upset and said I was wasting my money. Since then we have had a couple of fights about it and he thinks I'm "lawyered up" so I can screw him in a divorce. He's said that if I really want a divorce he would drag his feet, but wouldn't fight me on it. Now I'm afraid I may have led him to believe that I do want a divorce. We have to live separately for 6 months and have a property settlement agreement. That's it. I feel like the clock is ticking now.
I posted this in my thread, too.
I will respond on your thread.
limitless
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Hello Mentors and knowledgeable fellow LBSers.
I have a nervous stomach for the first time in a long time over a situation that has come up with husband having to do with son. I guess I am hoping that I did the right thing, and am looking for some advice from people in a similar situation as to how now to deal with this as it unfolds.
Husband is supposed to have son for a weekend every five weeks. this doesn't sound like much, and it isn't at all. he does see him on evenings after school once or twice a week and then the usual pick drop off and pick up at school when his schedule allows. In the past, husband would stay with son the entire weekend at our house if I was away. If I wasn't going away, he would likely pick him up in the afternoon and drop him off shortly after dinner time and take off as fast as possible. It's unfair that I have to be the one to vacate if son is to spend any real time with his dad at all. His last scheduled weekend with son didn't happen at all because I was home. I didn't make a big deal about it as it was Mother's Day and I wanted to spend the time with son but he didn't even so much as take him for supper the friday or saturday - complete no show. So this coming weekend, I didn't want him to do the same thing. We discussed things pretty calmly by text and I confirmed the weekend. He immediately asked if I would be away to which i responded that i would be around but that that shouldn't make a difference. He could pick up son first thing in the morning and drop him off at bedtime if he wasn't able to make other arrangements.
HUSBAND: Ok.. So I got billy Friday night to Sunday.. U will be staying elsewhere.?
ME: No. I'm in town...I'll be in and out. Have to save up for all the driving over the summer. You can drop SON off to sleep and grab him in the morning if you're unable to make other arrangements but I do hope he can hang out with you for the bulk of the weekend
HUSBAND: Since u will he staying at the house . That limits the time and place I can stay with him.. So I Will pick him up and drop him off. But we can't stay away for hours. And I can't get him too early.
HUSBAND: Since there is nothing open in early hours.
ME: Geezus HUSBAND - I won't give you cooties. I'll stay out of your way. You can take him to your place. You can take him to the places you'd usually go to on your own. It's your weekend and you have a few days to figure it out. Be creative :)
HUSBAND: I wouldn't take him to where I stay.. Too uncomfortable..and when its my weekend . U usually go away so I can spend time in our house with just him and I and have a place to crash together. Not running around looking for things To do all day.
HUSBAND: I can take him for haircut and fleamarket . Maybe a movie .. Other than that we hang out at house together.
ME: That's fine - you can do that. I'll stay out of your way but it's unfair that you show up at noon to pick him up and then take off after supper. It's his time with you. You're gonna need to get over the uncomfortableness of it all. You can't keep milking your situation and using it as an excuse not to have SON. We need to be realistic about this. I'll be around, but it'll be brief and out of your way. I hope you'll be there in the morning and spend the entire day with him sat and sun, as per our original agreement. It's unfortunate that you feel uncomfortable having him at your place but that shouldn't impose on SON's time with you
HUSBAND: No. I'm doing it out of respect for u.. Not having him around her.. So I will get him early sat and Sunday...
ME: I don't believe that, I'm sorry. You have no qualms having her around SON when it suits you. I had asked that of you previously because by your own words, she's not overly stable and wasn't a permanent part of your life. You agreed but did it anyway. I'm not interested in getting into a big argument about this but it's time to get real. I don't believe there's any respect involved at all. It's inconvenient to you, if anything. But it's something you need to deal with and resolve because we can't keep having this same discussion every time you're to have SON
HUSBAND: Then u have to be real and know that SON may be around her then.
ME: Yes, I get that.
ME: If she treats him kindly and respectfully then that's all I can ask
ME: And that you respect that it may be hard for him at first and not to get angry with him but kindly help him adjust
HUSBAND: I would always make sure he is ok.
ME: Good
Otherwise, son doesn't get time with this dad and I really don't get time to myself. I guess I figured it was time to be honest about the situation and about how husband uses this excuse as a reason to spend little time with son. If he's to continue his life with this person, then son will need to know her properly, will need to be as comfortable as possible with that situation if he is to be a part of his dad's life. Otherwise, my big fear is that husband will leave son behind, too and that breaks my heart for son.
Did I do the wrong thing here? I know the usual rule is to minimize exposure of children to the OW but it's been three years since he's left, two and a half years since we've known about ow and he has already introduced them, had son stay over when I was away, pretty sure she's been over to MY home while i was away... this way we're no longer playing games and he can no longer use that excuse as well as me not having to scramble around for a place to go and stuff to do on his weekends... I'm just really feeling :( that it has come to this.
thank you!
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I find nothing wrong with what you did/said. I dont' know your entire story, so forgive me if I say something out of line, but I find it ridiculous that he would expect you to leave your home so that he can stay there. Again, I think not only did you do nothing wrong, but you stood up for yourself and took some positive action. Good for you DCD!
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thank you, alwayshope, for the boost. i'm struggling with this but i really feel like it's time that his real life and fantasy life come together and he starts dealing with his responsibilities where his son is concerned. he used to be quite fond of telling me "i left you, not son!" but he doesn't say that anymore because he likely can no longer get that whopper out without choking on it. it's one weekend every five weeks or so...i'll just keep telling myself that :-\
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thank you, alwayshope, for the boost. i'm struggling with this but i really feel like it's time that his real life and fantasy life come together and he starts dealing with his responsibilities where his son is concerned. he used to be quite fond of telling me "i left you, not son!" but he doesn't say that anymore because he likely can no longer get that whopper out without choking on it. it's one weekend every five weeks or so...i'll just keep telling myself that :-\
Screwtape always says that too, he left me, not the girls. It is amazing to me that they actually believe that. My dad used to say the same thing - I wish I had been bold enough with him to tell him he was full of crap. When Screwtape was visiting one time (I had asked him to come over to talk), he kept telling me he's not coming back, etc... I was crying, begging, etc... and as I was listening to him, incredulous that this person was my H, I had an 'aha' moment... it wasn't a good one... I always loved my dad, and thought he could do no wrong, but in that moment, I grew to resent him and told Screwtape 'You are making me hate my dad!'. It's crazy how that comes around after all this time...
DCD, don't struggle, let your H struggle, he deserves to feel uncomfortable.
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he used to be quite fond of telling me "i left you, not son!"
This must be script as my H said this to me too. Excuse me? Want to explain that one to me when you don't see him but once a week if that????? Hmmmmm.
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My H just Skyped S16 after 2 weeks of silence, saying "why don't you talk to me any more?" When son answered it was because his Dad never contacted him, H replied that it was always him who initiated contact (once in a blue moon!) It's so unfair to S to make him feel guilty and responsible for keeping in touch after all that H has done, especially as S loves his Dad and is not one to talk about how he's really feeling to me. Do these b#%&*y MLCers not see what they're doing? I hope beyond hope that this really is a process and that they will come through it....sigh :-[
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Alwayshope, I'm working at letting go of this struggle. You're right!! It's time he squirm a bit! Heheheh...screwtape...
Slow Fade and fidelle, don't you wish you were allowed one free slap a day, no consequences ??? I'd save up several weeks' worth and let rip on the next stupid thing that drops from his mouth! It sure is fun to think about. ;D
Thank you for your thoughts and support...I hate this :-\
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Okay trust me to ask this one !!!
If the mlcer no longer sees himself in the mirror image what does that suggest.
Any ideas anyone.
x
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Yikes CJ ... Who does he see instead? Superman? Lol!
That is most strange ... he doesn't recognise himself anymore?
Hope someone has some words of wisdom!
Xxxx
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If the mlcer no longer sees himself in the mirror image what does that suggest.
He is a vampire?
I guess I am not sure what the question means. Do you mean he doesn't recognize himself?
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If the mlcer no longer sees himself in the mirror image what does that suggest.
Identity issues or questions
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Very literal identity crisis! I remember for the bulk of the last year of my own crisis, I wouldn't even look in the mirror to brush my teeth. I would make eye contact with myself as little as possible, because I had that "unrecognizable" feeling. It wasn't overtly about age or anything in particular - it was just very uncomfortable and at time scary. There's really nothing about it that makes any sense, and I see that now. That probably doesn't help much, but I believe it IS part of this process. My husband has been obsessed with his face throughout this, especially with grooming and facial hair - but at court last week, even though his clothes were properly pressed and in order, his face was a mess. Very scruffy, uneven beard that had obviously not been cared for in awhile, and recent pictures of him match that too. Methinks that's coming on for him. He's Class of 2011 too, so it's about time!
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I did just remember that right after BD my husband said he didn't recognize the person looking back at him in the mirror too. Eerie how similar they are.
He has also been obsessed with his appearance in MLC and still is going with that four years later (one would think it would all get exhausting) but I do note that his quest for youth and trying to portray a much younger image has made him age at least 10 years. Wow, is he gray and scruffly looking. He needs to find a new fountain of youth.
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Okay so you have me in stitches superman or a vampire lol.
I did wonder if he is no longer able to see himself in ow, or maybe that is wishful thinking, he has definately lost his identity but that happened ages ago as we know.
I have heard him refer to his dad and son as like looking in a mirror on two different occasions in the early days but now it is like he has lost any projection, he can basically no longer superimpose himself on his mirror image.
Dont know if anyone can make any sense of that.
x
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Saw this tonight, and couldn't help but be reminded of this conversation. I think this may be a perfect example of our MLCers and their "mirror work":
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6510583296/h54F35D21/)
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I shouldn't laugh but I can't help it. I think that captures the poor messed up mood perfectly.
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Yes that is brilliant they are sure having a hissy fit over themselves.
I like cats too and that one is so funny bless it.
I dont know where you find all of these R2T but they are always great.
I am just sitting here imagining my h running up to the mirror like that, so so funny, good job we can all still laugh at times.
x
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That's so funny! Made me smile. What we all need.
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Been thinking about this ... if he's looking in a mirror and he doesn't see himself ... then ...
Its probably a window!!
(sorry if you thought I might have some serious comment! lol!)
xxx
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Lol Musica!
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Hi, I have a couple of question. 9 mnths since BD and it seems like my ex has now gone into high energy replay.
I recently found out he'd lied about going to a party (told me and the kids that he had to work and cancel our usual sunday family day for it). I haven't mentioned it, refusing to give it any attention.
Yesterday he told my son (knowing it would get back to me, probably) that this Saturday coming he will be going in a stunt plane (talk about extreme adrenaline rush).
I will be seeing him the day after that on sunday, fathers day.
Now do I let him know that I know about it before he even gets the chance by saying something like: ''Hi, Mr Flying ace, I hear you've been up in the sky?''
Or do I not mention anything and if he does tell me, do I ask how it was or just listen, smile .....what do I say?
How should I deal with his crazy antics? They do affect me because I think ''You left all of us for that?'' but I feel I ought to act as if it doesn't phase me at all.
Advice please, thank you.
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Or do I not mention anything and if he does tell me, do I ask how it was or just listen, smile .....what do I say?
I personally would go this route. Don't say anything, but if he brings it up smile, nod, and maybe say something very light about it, particularly if he is trying to get some kind of reaction out of you.
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Thank you, trusting. I have just been for a driving lesson and it's good meditation for me. I am now thinking this would be the best route, too. Something light....I might just burst into song: ''Flyiiiiiing without wiiiiiiings' and leave it as that lol
Not going to make a big deal out of it. He might not even tell me because I know he'll expect me to say something mumsy and judgemental. He's no idea how much I have changed really re: his freedom. ::)
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How should I deal with his crazy antics? They do affect me because I think ''You left all of us for that?'' but I feel I ought to act as if it doesn't phase me at all.
Ignore them may be a good idea. Some MLCers tend to start to go deeper into the tunnel months, or even years, after BD and their antics become crazier and crazier.
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Yeah, sounds like the plan!
But really? I can't think of much more crazier than being in a stunt plane .... :o
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A stunt plane is pretty crazy. I didn't mean you husband is going to do crazier things than that (he may or he may not, lest hope he will not) just that some MLCers crazy behaviour escalates as they progress deep into the tunnel.
Some MLCer can be quiet, or relatively quiet, for many months or even years and, at a point, they get themselves into something totally crazy. Like stunt plane.
I'm certain if freefall from Mars was available there would be an MLCer going for it... ::) ::) ::)
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Yes, he was pretty quiet for a while, I didn't expect a storm was brewing. Mind you, nothing will surprise me after that.
I do hope it will cause him to vomit a little ;D
It makes no sense. They are scared of getting old and even death, yet put themselves at risk. Bonkers!
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I do hope it will cause him to vomit a little ;D
It makes no sense. They are scared of getting old and even death, yet put themselves at risk. Bonkers!
How not nice of you! ;D
It is exactly because they are scared of getting old and of death they put themselves into such risks. They think it will make them be/feel younger and that they can avoid/delay death.
In fact they may end up metting death, and ageing sooner. But no point in try to tell it to them. They don't get it. ;D ::)
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Ah, yes, I think all the craziness will add a few wrinkles to their not so baby-faces already, while us LBS get into shape and looking after ourselves.
Nice to meet by the way, Anne :)
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Nice to meet you as well, booboo64. :)
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Can I ask a question about Touch n Go's (following on from the documentation on the site) - can someone give me an example of what this would be?
Is it different if H still at home?
Also, if there are no touch n go's - is that an indication of anything?
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Hi Panda - fellow UKLBSer with H at home and OW on the scene. Your BD roughly same time as mine although not anywhere near as traumatic as yours but My H being very "normal" at the mo so suspect "hoovering" is imminent!!
I bought RCR's articles (£3.50ish each) and so useful as the books explain everything in really good detail which the blog pages and web articles summarise.
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Thank you Songanddance - I shall take a look...
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I am well over 4
months years post BD with a live in MLCer. Touch and goes for me are things like my husband bringing something home for the house, going out to do something with me and the kids, etc. In general, my husband is not home much and stays in the basement when he is.
Edited - see above in red :) :) :) - Old Pilot
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I think I have had quite a few touch and goes then. I think he's a boomerang anyway. Moved out day after BD.
I've had bags of wood dropped by my front door (that he'd bought himself fro my wood burner), bags of wood from his work, money- a few times and that it's still happening, fixing my lawn mower, replacing plugs etc, taking me and dog to the vets. He was very helpful at first, but I just don't ask for so much help anymore but if I ask or hint he'll step in. Then I don't hear from him for a few days.
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Thank you booboo64 and trusting. The thing is, I haven't had any of that - I feel well and truly dumped - what does that mean?
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Booboo, yes I would definitely classify those as touch and goes. :) And in typical style, they will do something "good" like that and then disappear for awhile. It is all part of the cycling.
Panda, some MLCers are more distant and you may not experience touch and goes as much.
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Panda, sometimes I wish he wouldn't because it really messes with my head. It's like mixed-messages that make no sense whatsoever.
That is why I try to do everything for myself and by myself these days, and to be honest, I believe that it's how we ought to be. Everyone. Nobody owes anyone anything. It's nice to be able to rely on someone but at the end of the day the only person you can rely on in life, si you. But that's just my opinion.
I know how you feel, I still feel abandoned at times and got so frustrated when things around the house broke and I was unable to repair them. But with the help of friends online and family (even youtube videos and google) I have learnt a few things.
How to clean out my washing machine filter; take a door off and put it back on, change a lightbulb ( yup, I had no clue before lol), change a fuse, chop and cut wood etc...And I am now so chuffed with myself with those small achievement ;D
You'll be OK!!!
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My ex was touch and go just over 2 years. He'd call, come over, take me out for dinner, be very affectionate - like we were still a couple - put money in my account etc. Then he meet Miss Wales now he's a vanisher
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It seems that many MLCers distance further around the two year mark. I am not sure why this is, other than they hit that dark part of the tunnel with no light at either end. It seems like many LBS notice that there are fewer touch and goes and less cycling after that point, at least until they get closer to the end.
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Think the reason is really what you said, trusting, many MLCers hit the darker part at the two years mark. I had several touch & goes from Mr J until nearly the 2 years Mark. Once he even come by to see me (using a lame excuse), then, late 2007, he star buying me records and magazines and send them from the capital. When OW1 was no more he wanted me to be his "girlfriend" and go clubbing with him.
Enter OW2 and nearly 2 years mark and the touch and goes pass to occasionally me receiving his professional newsletter, usually when he considered he had achieved a big success. No touch & go in a long time.
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17 mos since H moved out. Saw Monster today....big-time! H mad because he is living with a hellish situation at his Mom's and is still supporting our home. I expected this to come eventually but there were a couple of things that concern me about it.
First of all, his anger over things that happened years ago was as fresh as if it had happened yesterday. Granted, I never knew he was angry about them until BD, but still he has had 17 mos to think it threw and it seems like nothing has been processed. How does one stay so biter...rehearsing it over and over? Do they ever just stay stuck here?
Also, besides being even more martyrish than ever, he was really making things up in his rewriting. I would consider them lies, but he seemed convinced. I couldn't tell if he was trying to make me feel crazy or if he believed them. I responded by telling him that was not he way I remembered things but he bullied me by not letting me get a word in edgewise. Do they really believe these rewritings? What is the best way to deal with these twisted interpetations when you hear them? It is difficult not to want to defend yourself when falsely accused!
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THK ... one way to deal with monster ... I'm sorry you feel that way, I remember things differently ... I have got to go and do .... whatever! ... i.e. leave the conversation, there's no winning with monster. Defending yourself is futile at that time.
Write it all down and keep it for a time when he may be receptive in the future. xxxx
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Do they really believe these rewritings?
Yes, while they are in crisis they do. It is exasperating but there is no arguing with them or convincing them otherwise.
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Sadly, from experience I agree with the above comments. Detaching is the key.
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Detaching, letting go and taking the focus off them and onto you. It's hard, it's painful and takes time. But when you get there it feels great :D ;D
xx
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I know there are other threads about this and I've read through them, but I'm still a little confused. When MLCers begin to emerge and are doing touch and gos, are we supposed to be supportive or is this when we make an ultimatum. If we are supportive, then are we going to make them complacent and more likely to get stuck?
Answered on your thread - OldPilot
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New thread
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3658.0