Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Mermaid on August 11, 2016, 04:04:04 PM
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Carrying on the poll from the previous thread, but with some changes. For the background, please look at the old post here:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.0 (http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=191.0)
We were discussing whether stress or depression were always factors preceding their crisis.
I added burnout as a separate item as it is a severe stress reaction leading to depression at the later stages, and a loss of emotion.
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I don't know where to vote. Mr J was seriously depressed and stressed but not burnout. At least not like the previous burnout. Burnout does not allow for Replay behaviour, no energy is left.
Somewhat depressed or stressed is not depressed and stressed enough for his situation.
I would had to vote for both depressed and stressed. The poll can be set to allow for 2 or more replies per person, which, in this case, I think would make sense. As it would have in the previous one.
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I picked that option, but instead of burnout, we used the term a lot around here of "overwhelm". We were facing so many big things because of the recession, and had no idea what to do. I kept going. He did not.
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I don't know where to vote. Mr J was seriously depressed and stressed but not burnout. At least not like the previous burnout. Burnout does not allow for Replay behaviour, no energy is left.
Somewhat depressed or stressed is not depressed and stressed enough for his situation.
I would had to vote for both depressed and stressed. The poll can be set to allow for 2 or more replies per person, which, in this case, I think would make sense. As it would have in the previous one.
Hmm. I can't change my categories now... Could you just choose the one which is most similar?
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Hmm. I can't change my categories now... Could you just choose the one which is most similar?
You can't, but I, or any mod can. Maybe changing the burnout for overwhelm? Or add depressed and stressed?
None of the categories in itself is similar. Burnout is a different thing, somewhat too far from the reality.
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I put the burnout one as I believe that is what sent him to OW.
She wrote to me about five months before BD saying how 'shocked' she was to re-encounter her old friend so stressed out... remember the OW is a psychologist :(
He definitely was stressed to the point of depression. I recommended him to go back to the psychiatrist he had seen about five or six years before and get some help. He did and was prescribed anti-anxiety medication :( (Procimax 20 mg). She (psychiatrist) said that he was over the 'depression' and that he was suffering from anxiety (AD(h)D co-morbidity).
He also said at BD that he had been in a very dark place and never wanted to go back there, that was why he needed to leave... If he continued married, he would find himself back there :(
So, yes - stressed-depression- burnout - OW waiting to pounce ???
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Ok, I vote on the option with burnout. But I want to leave it clear that burnout is a complete crash. It does not allow for any energy. I suffered from it 3 times and Mr J 2 before BD. We had no energy to move out of the bed, to think, almost none to eat. We sleep, that was all during the first days. There is barely any energy to get out of bed, let alone to have an affair.
Burnout does not give anyone the type of energy MLCers have. It puts in you a bed, often in hospital. Burnout is complete physical, and often mental, exhaustion. It is not what we see in MLC.
Burnout, with luck, allows you to wallow from the bed to the sofa. Slowly, one recovers, but the energy for high energy MLC is not there. Not even for wallowing MLC. It is much worst and lower than the lack of energy a wallower MLCer has.
MLC is strange because, aside from wallowers, MLCers have too much energy. They are more like bipolar people on a manic phase. Of course MLCers also have lows, and the lows will be quite low. I am talking about high energy MLCers.
Wallowers tend to try to have high energy, but fail. They wallow.
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Hmm. I can't change my categories now... Could you just choose the one which is most similar?
You can't, but I, or any mod can. Maybe changing the burnout for overwhelm? Or add depressed and stressed?
None of the categories in itself is similar. Burnout is a different thing, somewhat too far from the reality.
Burnout is very specific, which is why I wanted it there. I'll explain more in a later post.
I think it would be enough to eliminate the word "somewhat ", to have a category of stressed and depressed without being burnout.
I hope as many people as possible vote... This could be very interesting.
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When I looked at the questions, I felt that there were more than one that I could have chosen...would it work to have your top 3 reasons? I ended up adding other for to me, the significant trigger was death of his mother.
I do understand that perhaps only choosing one gives the opportunity for better analysis of what we see.
I wonder what people who have been through a MLC would choose?
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I think it would be enough to eliminate the word "somewhat ", to have a category of stressed and depressed without being burnout.
Done. Now you have to count my vote in that one, rather than on the burnout one. It is not possible to change the number of votes in each category.
When I looked at the questions, I felt that there were more than one that I could have chosen...would it work to have your top 3 reasons?
If Mermaid agrees, the poll can be set for 3 replies per person.
I wonder what people who have been through a MLC would choose?
Speaking for myself, stressed, tremendously stressed, with a bit of depression, mostly covert, with some overt.
Since I have been through both, even if the MLC was mild compared with many replayers, I know it was totally different from burnout.
Reading what other who have MLC wrote, had watched my cousin and others, I think that is pretty much it, stress (also anxiety) and depression, even if this one can often be covert. Eventually, when rock bottom comes, burnout is present, but until then, not really, there is a crazy, manic energy I have never come across before or after.
I think this is one important point to have in consideration, Mermaid, some of us had MLC. We know how it is, we are not just saying that is it like this or that, we have been there.
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When I looked at the questions, I felt that there were more than one that I could have chosen...would it work to have your top 3 reasons? I ended up adding other for to me, the significant trigger was death of his mother.
I do understand that perhaps only choosing one gives the opportunity for better analysis of what we see.
I wonder what people who have been through a MLC would choose?
I understand that, but these polls don't let us have multiple options, as far as I can see.
Now, for this poll, we're focusing on depression and stress as key factors. I'd like to see if all MLCers have one, the other, or a category that is known as burnout. I don't think that's the same as being overwhelmed. Perhaps that's in the stresses/depressed category? It's also not the same as having a nervous breakdown (esgotamento in Portuguese, esgotamiento in Spanish), which is a psychological category of being unable to cope. (For lack of an alternative, perhaps these can be added to the stresses/depressed category).
Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:
1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work
Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?
My H, an MD, diagnosed himself as high on the burnout scale, and I recognize many of these symptoms. However, at some point, rather than going into total collapse, when OW appeared, he seemed to go into escapist mode. He was contradictory and told me that (a) he could not feel anything, but (b) he was happy when he came home after meeting up with OW. He seemed to be fixed on his need to feel.
1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.
Having said this, it has not been included in DSM-5, and has been criticized for focusing on work burnout, for being fragile in its construction, for being unsystematic in its approach and arbitrary in its categorization of factors, and for being similar to depression. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459038/#!po=10.7143 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4459038/#!po=10.7143)
But I've included it here as its been mentioned by so many, including my own H.
However, the existence of stress and depression in themselves are not enough to explain what we see as MLC. As xzycf mentioned, there seem to be several factors together, or as OP has said elsewhere, a perfect storm.
I just want to see here if stress/depression/burnout are always present.
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I've easily gone for 'stressed and depressed'; the total burnout as described above wasn't the case, although I would certainly say overwhelmed.
Stress due to general life factors, which we had perhaps more than most with special needs kids and multiples to boot; huge hits starting with his father dying now quite a while ago, then the suicide of one of his best friends. Hugely stressful work situation, and that had been the case for many years. Felt huge financial pressure, not helped by the fact that I wasn't earning.
General tendency to avoid rather than to deal with things head-on meant that he looked for an escape; it didn't help that I was feeling very stressed and probably depressed as well, due to situation with children and other of my own factors.
He felt overwhelmed with the financial responsibility, and, as he now tells me, "not good enough"; (he didn't say that at BD).
I had recognised the depression and encouraged him to get help, in the end that was what sent him over the edge -- someone who I at first thought would help turned out to be the original alienator (sound typical??); it was an alternative therapist who in essence "gave permission" for him to release all his selfishness.....
in a very simplistic nutshell, he chose to blame me for all the problems, figuring if he got rid of me it would sort everything else out. Put that together with wanting to always feel "in love", and this is what you get.
I know he always had his insecurities, to me that was what made him human. He used to always want to prove himself, somewhere that got to be impossible for him (his work environment was geared to cause as much insecurity as possible, I always felt) and it turned to feeling entitled, and that I was somehow to blame for him not having everything he wanted the way he wanted.
I'm not sure if that therapist fundamentally changed something in his brain, or if he is just particularly stubborn. In the early days I saw a counsellor who had also met H; even though he only saw that manic, full-on replay MLC H and thought he'd never met anyone with less empathy, he also said that there wasn't really any reason why our marriage shouldn't survive, that all the main factors were there. RCR also said that she found my case frustrating, as there didn't seem to be big reasons why it shouldn't run it's course and reconcile.
I still see the despair, when he lets the mask slip, but overall he presents a smiling happy face, doing things for pleasure, and keeping away from any topics that might provoke deeper thinking.
Like in the beginning, when I suggested (way before I knew about MLC) that he might be depressed, as I knew it altered all thinking, he said "well, I went for a walk, thought about it, and decided no, I'm not depressed as I don't have the "classic" symptoms, so the problem is you".
And now he just says that "it's been _____ years, I'm never coming home". He has been saying that for years, just changing the number.
And then the despair sets in, and he almost reaches out for help, then I can practically see the hammer he uses to slam those feelings down and look for the next thing that will feel good.
He feels guilt, that is also something he has articulated for a long time. My D recently said that it was up to him to fix it, he asked her how. He seems to want someone else to set the "rules"; it keeps him from having to think.
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Reading what Mermaid posted on burnout. I can definitely attest that my h. went through that.
Every single one of them, he even alluded to feeling a mental collapse when he asked the psychiatrist whether he could have a mental breakdown at any time :o (he told me that). I think that was when she put him on anti-anxiety medication.
His boss, who is my friend (a family friend) told me that he was so unpredictable with clients because of sudden rages :o, that she was fearful of sending him to deal with the clients in case he lost a contract for the firm :(. After BD, apparently he got better... Although, he still blamed colleagues, clients, the government, for difficulties encountered in the execution of contracts.
Physically, he lost a lot of weight prior to BD, yet, it did not seem that it was because of vanity, more due to the mental anguish he was in.
So, yes, I can see clearly stressed, depressed and burnout
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I voted for burnout. After BD, before I ever knew about MLC, I remember doing a search on "job burnout" and came across adjustment disorder, which I still feel very much applies to my H because marked by anxiety and reckless behavior.
I dismissed the idea when I read that one of the criteria for diagnosis is that it resolves within 6 months of the "trigger" event. But I have since read that it can continue as long as there continue to be unresolved stresses.
I also read an account on a depression message board written by a man who had left his wife for 18 months and behaved very MLC-like, and he wrote that he was ultimately diagnosed with adjustment disorder.
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Mermaid,
Again THANK YOU for your continuing research and sharing of the Masiach burnout inventory.
When I was in nursing school, we studied Hans Selye's Stress Scale and the effect on health...recognizing that both good and bad experiences have the same physiological effect on the body. The higher your rating, the more likely you were to have a major health issue occur.
In the Masiach inventory, my husband scores high on each of the 12 measurements. He also has several physical conditions that put him at extremely high risk of collapse.
I have recognized this for so many many years.....the problem is, does he?
And my question for myself this morning, if this was any other person in my life, personal or a client, I would insist that they look at this inventory and get help ASAP...instead, for the man I love, I can only sit by and wait for that phone call that will come when he completely blows himself up. :'(
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This is interesting; it makes me reflect....
Mine didn't put his all into his day job, but did put a huge amount into a compulsive hobby that made money. This could be called the addiction, the symptom, I keep going back and forth on this.
One other thing I remember from the early days was when i asked him what on earth would happen if/when he burned out (a high risk in his former job) -- that was when we (the kids and I) were supposed to be there for him.
His response was that "he was better than all those others", that it couldn't happen to him. It was a bit delusional, in hindsight
So perhaps the burnout was on the horizon.....
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During the last 4 years I saw my former boss and my counterpart having a burnout.
For sure they fell into the category of the most enthusiast and accepting (too many) responsibilities.
They both ended up in hospital, repeatedly, one had finally to stop working for over a year.
This description of the 12 points fits very well to both.
Myself after a year of emergency UN projects would have checked quite a few of those boxes but I realized I started to deplete my energy. And luckily you get a stress management booklet at the beginning of the assignment which I had stuffed into a cupboard in the first week thinking ýeah right, what douchebags ´...and then quietly taking it out a year later to make sure I do all the things you can to prevent burnout (infact, nothing new to a LBS having managed traumatic stress at BD: like getting enough sleep, eating well, exercising, meditation etc being very high on the list...)
For my H I put stressed and depressed only because he was never very enthusiastic about his jobs except in the beginning and not one to run for responsibilities. He never was a very active person and I think he was too stressed out with the kids and all the demands and changes that brings into a couple - and at the same time the routine (of household with kids stress), so I think it was more of this routine family stress at origin, so of course a childless OW is the perfect ´solution´ :(
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I just put depressed because I didn't see any stress. He worked a lot and was tired but I wouldn't say stressed. Maybe put in too many hours but he asked for them. An escape, maybe?
The only thing I saw before BD was him occasionally being very, very quiet.
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Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:
1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work
Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?
1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.
I voted stress and depression, but after reading this list (I'm not sure the source?) would say depression plus burnout.
I have the same question as Mermaid: What tips the person over the edge? I would love to see a poll or a question on this followed by poll.
I read depressing book "Runaway Husbands" soon after bomb drop. One thing that struck me as uncanny was that the author wrote that husbands that abandon often do so after a period of separation from the wife, like a work trip, holiday, etc. This was precisely what happened in my case, my son and I had left the country for six weeks. It was absolutely as the author described, when we returned he had turned into a cruel and vindictive stranger.
Is this the pattern for others on the board as well?
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Yes, same for me. Was away preparing our new family home for the next 4 years but he never moved in...
I think this happens more with the H with immature/dependent personality, they get depressed when you leave them and can´t cope with being alone but won´t admit so they search for replacement?
His OW is also a freaking decade younger double of me so much so that our MC said to H ´I get confused about whom you are talking, your wife or the OW´´and ´why do you want a copy when you already have the original? :o
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My culture is one that teaches us not to complain, find solutions and talk about that instead. So I really don't know if there were any stress or depression before hand.
He started out working way too many hours overtime, so I knew there was something going on in his mind.
I saw more anxiety/restlessness than anything yet that could be so many things.
So I voted neither stress or depression , because I really just don't know for sure.
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I almost did the same, EL. But I did see some depression at times but chalked it up to him working too much. :-\
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I voted for stressed only. I am afraid my husband was a very lazy man so he would never burn himself out on anything !!
My h was becoming excessively intolerant of the children, to the point of rough handling them when they were only 4 years old. He was very stressed anywhere near them. That would be exactly around his 40th birthday too.
My h admitted early on that he resented the children and wished he never had them. So they are inextricably linked to his crisis and the stress he was showing. There is more to this obviously but they were the main cause of his stress.
Sd
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I voted stressed to burnout, plus depressed; but my H would disagree (despite also being an MD, and perfectly familiar with DSM-V, he won't cop to depression cuz real men don't do that ::) ). Stress at work, in an emergency room, is a sine qua non. There were also a number of inquests, some of which involved my H - depositions, court rooms, stress... H felt undervalued and that he had achieved nothing in his life. H was also spitting nails angry, for quite a few years; having difficulty maintaining collegial relationships at work, no positive feeling for his patients or co-workers, wanted to leave medicine and become a mountain guide; anhedonic, obsessive compulsive, unable to feel anything except anger. High energy replay activities - body burned out, H became overtly depressed, and BD came shortly after.
Maslach burnout inventory, or MBI, is a specific tool to measure stress specifically as the result of work, and is recognized as a valid reason for taking sick leave in a number of countries. It's recognizes as a valid scale, with internal and external reliability. The MBI Surveys address three general scales:
1. Emotional exhaustion measures feelings of being emotionally overextended and exhausted by one's work
2. Depersonalization measures an unfeeling and impersonal response toward recipients of one's service, care treatment, or instruction. This includes "anhedonia", which is a loss of the ability to feel.
3. Personal accomplishment measures feelings of competence and successful achievement in one's work
Some writers propose 12 stages of burnout, some 4, some 3. In the following, note stages 6-11. Does it look familiar?
1. The Compulsion to Prove Oneself; demonstrating worth obsessively; tends to hit the best employees, those with enthusiasm who accept responsibility readily.
2. Working Harder; an inability to switch off.
3. Neglecting Their Needs; erratic sleeping, eating disrupted, lack of social interaction.
4. Displacement of Conflicts; problems are dismissed, we may feel threatened, panicky and jittery.
5. Revision of Values; values are skewed, friends and family dismissed, hobbies seen as irrelevant, work is only focus.
6. Denial of Emerging Problems; intolerance, perceiving collaborators as stupid, lazy, demanding, or undisciplined, social contacts harder; cynicism, aggression; problems are viewed as caused by time pressure and work, not because of life changes.
7. Withdrawal; social life small or non-existent, need to feel relief from stress, alcohol/drugs.
8. Odd Behavioural Changes; changes in behaviour obvious, friends and family concerned.
9. Depersonalization; seeing neither self nor others as valuable, and no longer perceive own needs.
10. Inner Emptiness; feeling empty inside and to overcome this, look for activity such as overeating, sex, alcohol, or drugs; activities are often exaggerated.
11. Depression; feeling lost and unsure, exhausted, future feels bleak and dark.
12. Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention.
Thank you Mermaid, this is meticulous. My H went through most of these stages - initially relating to his work, but then displaced to mountain climbing, which became the only measure by which H would validate himself (having mentally abandoned his career - you think I'm a bad doctor, to hell with you, I'm a climber!). He was still working madly, piling shifts on top of shifts; any time H had a few days off, he was off to the mountains. Taking lethal risks, trying to fit himself into an exclusive climbing community (medicine is, I suppose, also an exclusive community; but one that he had written off by then), because per H, "that's the only place I can feel anything!". And inevitably, his body failed him. Unmasked the crisis.
Was this burn-out? Or merely overwhelmed and inarticulate? Were the rage, anhedonia and OCD manifestations of clinical depression? I feel so (and fwiw despite academic controversies, I do believe in the imbalanced neurotransmission theory of depression, but can't see how one simply fixes it by increasing total body serotonin levels - it's more complicated than that). I do think H's more and more frequent forays into high adrenalin / endorphin territory were attempts to self-medicate the depression - a clear pattern of chasing the dragon. This part, H does agree with now, in hindsight.
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My H admitted to being burned out - having been self-employed for 20 years. The firing of one long time client and the other not renewing a contract (they were OW's suggestion and I had a weird vibe from them - turned out to be shady, but then I didn't get a vote by then). He too, like some of the others took on a new career path, which I encouraged, but OW got credit for that and yet, now he is focusing on building a "home" and not really working too much.
He was stressed for sure - brought on by financial stresses and depressed, although he said he was not. He hid his depression well. Bad behaviors, etc.
None of which he could admit to.
I think for mine the burnout was one of the factors with the stress that brought on depression and subsequent MLC.
Almost like an emotional overload. Easier to escape than to cope with it.
Not working out so well for him at the moment - he is on a downward spiral and blames the marriage and everything but any of his own actions.
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I went with depressed and stressed. The catalyst for his crisis was retiring from the Marine Corps, which was his identity. He was stressed and depressed looking for a new job them stressed and depressed because he found no satisfaction from the new job (until OW showed up). For a couple of years, he seems to have felt his life had no meaning. Even before OW he was, in retrospect, spinning into replay with his fun seeking.
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I do understand that perhaps only choosing one gives the opportunity for better analysis of what we see.
I understand that, but these polls don't let us have multiple options, as far as I can see.
Theoretically, they should, since I can change it to 2 or more votes per user, but it does not show. It will be this way, then.
Esgotamento is not a just a psychological category, it is also a physical one. Esgotamento Nervoso/Mental is a psychological/emotional category. Esgotamento Físico is physical. Usually, the later involves the former.
Burnout is a severe form of Esgotamento (breakdown), a complete physical and mental one.
"Burnout Syndrome; can include total mental and physical collapse; time for full medical attention." this is what happened to me and Mr J twice before BD, and to me once after BD. It is not the same that I see in MLC, be it mine or Mr J's one.
That is the only point I identify with burnout, the remaining look like standard depression and/or stress ones to me. I don't manage to truly differentiate except for 12.
6 - To a point
7 - Not at all, if anything, Mr J social life increased 100 times and he was more outgoing and extroverted than ever in his life.
8 - Changes in behaviour obvious to me, friends didn't seem to find anything strange. Early on SIL advised Mr J to go see a doctor because of the depression and manic energy. She was concerned that, like herself and their mother, he could had thyroid problems. He refused. He may have thyroid problems, he may not. He never did the tests.
9 - The only person who had no worthy was me; OW1, MLC friends, Mr J, all were fabulous, fantastic and the most amazing people on earth according to what Mr J shouted at me. This is what he said, but what he wrote to OW1 tells me he felt totally down and lacked self-esteem.
10 - I was never told Mr J felt empty inside. But, again, by what he wrote to OW1, I would say yes. And he said he was depressed, depression comes with feeling empty inside.
11 - Mr J himself said he was depressed.
I still don't have a clue with what Mr J felt overwhelmed with. His reaon to leave was "I can only do this now". This being djing and now is actually 10 years down the road.
For me, it remains stress and depression. Since the only point in the list that differentiates burnout from depression and/or stress is number 12, and number 12 has not happend this time. If it had, Mr J would not be out there being all crazy and wild. He would had crashed into bed many years ago.
However, the existence of stress and depression in themselves are not enough to explain what we see as MLC. As xzycf mentioned, there seem to be several factors together, or as OP has said elsewhere, a perfect storm.
Why not? The points in the list seem more than enough to me to start a crisis of any sort. Anyway, without the stress and depression there would had been no crisis, so the other issues really aren't that relevant. Without the stress and depression the issues would had been solved, the person would had not got into crisis mode.
I think it will depend of the type of depression, osb. But more recent studies and ideas think that just raising serotonin levels is not enough in many cases of depression. And it certainly does not work for everyone. Some people react very badly to SSRIs. Mr J is one of them. Plus, depression affects far more than only that neurotransmitter, so I find it strange that so many doctors still go with just trying to fix serotonin (or neurotransmitters) levels.
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I said stressed and depressed. I do think that he had pushed himself to burnout. Ironically, with the onset of replay, he amped up his constant busyness and it has continued for all these years. HOW he not ended up collapsing, I will never understand. He finally had enough MLC energy to switch jobs the past month because he was completely burnt out on his old one. And of course, he is already barely keeping his head above water with the new one. A good deal of that is self-imposed, though. He is not good at balance and frankly never has been. And I do not believe his MLC self can stop from being way too busy. He has to keep running.
About six years before BD, he had a breakdown of sorts with extreme anxiety, burnout, etc. We were living in a different country then (and probably not coincidentally, it was where his family was living when I believe he experienced a lot of the wounding that has plagued him all these years) and so therapy in English was not easy to come by. He was told by a counselor at that point that he needed to be seeing someone regularly. He never did, and I wonder if he had at that point if he could have avoided an MLC.
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My H did complain he was burned out and I did see those signs, but in retrospect he too, amped up his business and put in insane hours. At that time we did not need the extra money. It was nice, but we were ok.
Of course now, he says I forced him to work those hours and I knew he was working to get new clients in order to release some older ones. Ummmm no, that would have been OW (EA at that time) he expressed that to. Not only that, there was no stopping him. Tried to. He was determined to work that hard and for awhile seemed to thrive on it. I was concerned he was going to have a crash and nervous breakdown then. What came has been just as bad, if not worse. Yet, there if you ask therapists, many acknowledge MLC as a real thing, but medically they say it is not acknowledged entirely. Components are labeled as other things. That said, most of us know, it doesn't matter, as with any therapy it won't work with anyone who doesn't think they have a problem. MLCers are notorious for deflecting and avoiding their inner demons. (My D once told me she wished her F would have a breakdown. I was a bit shocked, but she explained, maybe then he would get help :(
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Wow! Almost everyone here has voted for stressed, depressed or burnout to some degree, except
My culture is one that teaches us not to complain, find solutions and talk about that instead. So I really don't know if there were any stress or depression before hand.
He started out working way too many hours overtime, so I knew there was something going on in his mind.
I saw more anxiety/restlessness than anything yet that could be so many things.
So I voted neither stress or depression , because I really just don't know for sure.
So the only person not to indicate any of these was likely to have had one of them though unexpressed.
In hindsight, this is not surprising. Stressed feelings about a situation which continues is in itself a crisis, and stress leads to a fight or flight response.
It's interesting to notice that the origin of the stress and the responses vary widely. This is also not surprising; what is stressful for one is not for another.
I voted for stressed only. I am afraid my husband was a very lazy man so he would never burn himself out on anything !!
My h was becoming excessively intolerant of the children, to the point of rough handling them when they were only 4 years old. He was very stressed anywhere near them. That would be exactly around his 40th birthday too.
My h admitted early on that he resented the children and wished he never had them. So they are inextricably linked to his crisis and the stress he was showing. There is more to this obviously but they were the main cause of his stress
This is a very interesting case in point. Children are not so stressful for everyone, though they can be hard work and worrying. My own children are a source of my greatest joy. I'm sure I'm not alone.
So, there are obviously personality causes in stress and burnout. We must be careful BTW with our definitions of burnout. It necessarily involves three aspects:
1. depersonalization and anhedonia
2. Emotional exhaustion
3. Negative sense of achievement in work
So, it's not the same as depression or stress from other sources, exhaustion (physical or mental), and yes Nassau, I agree, it will continue or worsen until either the stressor is removed or ways are found to deal with it effectively.
Also, like so many other things, burnout is on a scale, not all or nothing. You can be high on the scale, but not at the point of hospitalization. My H, like so many, was diagnosed with burnout, but was not at that point, like xyzcf's, Mitzpah's & Trusting's spouses.
Anjae made the point about those with burnout being too exhausted for the high energy of MLCers. Perhaps this is one reason why we have low energy MLCers? What do you think?
Of course, energy is not just a category of physical exhaustion. We can gain energy from changing our context. As an extrovert, I know I can be down and lifeless until I get into a social event which gives me meaning. I feel energized as a result. My H typically feels energized by being by himself (so, by definition is an introvert). Strangely, and like so many MLCers, he seemed to change and wanted to go out all the time, especially if OW was there. This gave him energy, and he said it made him happy.
So... A hypothesis... Is this crisis partly to do with re-energizing themselves?
Then there are the personality issues. Not everyone is as likely to suffer burnout, stress, depression, etc. When I researched this a little, I found loads of academic papers confirming this, for example:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3200/SOCP.146.1.31-50 (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3200/SOCP.146.1.31-50)
In the present study of 80 volunteer counselors who cared for terminally ill patients, the authors examined the relationship between burnout as measured by the Maslach Burnout Inventory (C. Maslach, S. E. Jackson, & M. P. Leiter, 1996) and the 5 basic (Big Five) personality factors (A. A. J. Hendriks, 1997): extraversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, emotional stability, and intellect/autonomy. The results of 3 separate stepwise multiple regression analyses showed that (a) emotional exhaustion is uniquely predicted by emotional stability; (b) depersonalization is predicted by emotional stability, extraversion, and intellect/autonomy; and (c) personal accomplishment is predicted by extraversion and emotional stability. In addition, some of the basic personality factors moderated the relationship between relative number of negative experiences and burnout, suggesting that personality may help to protect against known risks of developing burnout in volunteer human service work.
Possibly it is true, Anjae, that without stress and depression, they'd never have gone into crisis mode. It's almost a truism that crisis happens as a result of a stressor! Nevertheless, this is still not enough to explain the types of crisis that they face, according to our perception of it. Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors, which is essentially what they do. Escapist behaviors are clearly a defense mechanism, meaning that they cannot face dealing with their lives by discussion/negotiation or minor changes. We all have some defense mechanisms, but some have more than others. This is related to FOO/ PD issues, which takes us back to early development of the self in social context.
On the other hand, it's also possible that there are also marriage issues. As much as we don't want to accept this, some spouses may be just unhappy. In some cases, their unhappiness is also related to their PD... Or even ours, although again, this is a question of where we all are on different spectrums of behaviour, not an all or nothing case.
The other issues mentioned by LBS on the old thread are trigger issues (such as death of a parent), medication, hormonal changes, neurological issues, external factors, FOO issues. Perhaps Erikson's midlife stage of generativity or stagnation are also factors when the issue is really about midlife crisis, versus other forms of stressed induced crisi.
In conclusion, It would seem that as well as a stressor, leading to fight or flight, there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt, and other issues too. Comments?
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It may not be, but I was diagnosed with burnout 3 times and the cause was physical and mental exhaustion. Either all my doctors (including GPs, pshychiatris and neurologists) were wrong, or something is being missed. Maybe in translation? I was not diagnosed with any of the 3 things on the list, even if, of course, emotional exhaustion was present because if physical and mental exhaustion is present, so is emotional one.
It end ups being very similar/the same thing as stress and/or depression and/or exhaustion. It looks a bit different in the 3 points list, but very much the same in the 12 points list. All those 3 things are present in depression, they can be present in stress, and at least two can, and often are, present in exhaustion. Many times the 3 are present in exhaustion.
I don't thing those items allow to a very good way of differentiate, since those items also show in depression.
I did not went to hospital, stayed home, but was under medical supervision, so was Mr J the times before BD.
Depression and exhaustion are also on a scale. Everything is. But for me the problem is that I really see no difference between the burnout items and the depression ones. They are the same thing.
Essentially, and osb has also been talking a lot about it, high energy MLCers are like addicts. They need their fix, they will run for more and more and more. They are depressed, but all those amazing chemicals/hormones they have become addicted to are masking it. For the most part, at least. Because when they have downs, they go to a very dark place.
An easy way of understanding it is to think about bipolar, with its manic highs and its deep lows (bipolar, of course, also is on a scale). Or to think what happens when we have a small, lets say, ache in a knee of hip, when we start walking (or running) we become warmer, adrenaline kicks in and the pain disappears. When we stop walking (or running) and cool down, the adrenaline lowers and we fell the pain again.
Yes, we can gain energy from changing our context. The excitement will raise a series of hormones and other things, the person will feel energy. Well, we know high energy MLCers need to keep doing things to be able to function, otherwise they go into overt depression. The problem is, those levels of energy are not sustainable. They will cause serious damage. It does not take long for a high energy MLCer to look old, tired and plain awful.
I can be energised both by being with people or on my own. It depends, of the people/type of situation. I can pretty much feel the energy level rise and I will be all happy and invigorated. However, then, I will need time on my own. The energy level will not last for the next day. The next day I need alone time. Either that, or do what I did after BD, going out and about non stop. Of course now I can no longer do that, I do not have that initial energy rush to go with, and I do end up feeling tired.
Introvert and extrovert to me have more to do on how people process things that with being, or not being, social. I am social, but I am also someone who loves to be alone. The real Mr J is similar to me. We had no lack of social life, always attending concerts, film festivals, exhibitions, going out to dance, dinners at friends houses, etc. But we need to keep our house for ourselves, we need it to be our space. We both liked the level of social life we had.
As you have seen on the link Kikki posted about depression, depression has to do with the hippocampus (among other things in the brain, it is not just that). It is not related to personality. Memory, in case anyone is wondering, also pertains to the brain domain. There are many different types of memory, and different typed of brain areas used. http://www.human-memory.net/brain_parts.html
If the marriage/spouse was the problem, once they leave and have OW/OM they should had become happy. They don't. So, being unhappy in the marriage is not the reason. When MLCers say they are unhappy in the marriage it is the depression talking.
Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors
As you have said, there are levels, and people aren't all affected the same way by the same thing. Stress and depression are enough to explain what we see. It is all very simple to explain with neurobiology/neuroscience/biology. X affects Z, that in turns has reaction R, which will lead to T. The effects of stress and/or depression are clearly explained in neurobiology/neuroscience. Also in endocrinology.
And you do not know how you will react if stress and depression hit you on a level that leads you into crisis, do you? No one knows. Not even those who have previously suffered depression and/or stress.
Escapist behaviors are clearly a defense mechanism, meaning that they cannot face dealing with their lives by discussion/negotiation or minor changes.
Many of us had spouses who were totally able to to face life dealing with discussion/negotiating or minor (or huge) issues. The other thing is some of us here have had our own MLC. I think we know how we are, were before crisis, and during crisis. As a general rule, we will say that we were super stressed and there was also depression (often covert).
Personality disorders do not show all of a sudden when people are in their 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. They show in adolescence, often earlier, the latter until very early adulthood. A person with a personality disorder is easy to spot and is not capable of hiding it. Let alone for decades and from their spouse.
Hormonal changes could be a good reason for MLC or any sort of crisis. Crisis are not uncommon in adolescence and for peri-menopausal women, people with thyroid issues, etc. But that would also but, stress in the hormone cortisol, so, stress is in itself an hormonal change.
Depression also affects several chemicals and hormones (hormones, by the way, are chemicals, but to make it easy, one usually says hormones when referring to certain chemicals).
I don't give much relevance to the FOO issues. Those alone would not lead anyone into crisis. In fact, they hadn't for decades, have they? The crisis mode only arises if there is a certain degree of stress and depression (the degree would be different for each person, but it is above a normal level), that becomes out of hand.
there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt,...
Then, how does one explain that many were perfectly capable of coping, often with extremely difficult things, without any problem? I think the thing is, every human has a breaking/burnout/stress limit point. It is different for every human, but we all have it. And our limit at 20 may be higher than our limit at 30, 40, 50, or the other way round. When that point is reached, a crisis will follow. Either that or a total crash.
Anyway, stress, depression, burnout, hormonal issues, all those can be treated. My view is that we are all (LBS & MLCs) enduring something that has treatment/solution. Much I think of it, I cannot see the point of MLC, not even of my own. I just think mine happened because, at BD, I was not treated and advised the way I should had been.
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Mermaid, I have been watching the Olympics. Which reminds me that Michael Phelps had a depression, start to behave like a fool, and was DUI twice.
“He had no idea what to do with the rest of his life. It made me feel terrible. I remember one day I said: ‘Michael, you have all the money that anybody your age could ever want or need; you have a profound influence in the world; you have free time — and you’re the most miserable person I know. What’s up with that?” This are the words of Phelps long time coach, Bob Bowman. http://www.sportskeeda.com/swimming/depression-rehab-and-becoming-a-father-the-other-side-of-michael-phelps-journey-from-2012-to-2016-rio-olympics
Phelps is not a normal person. Not even in Olympic normal. He did things (I'm writting did because this time he will most likely retire for good. He was not able to won the 100m butterfly yesterday; and the previous day he was visibly tired) no other athlete as done so far. Yet, he also felt victim of depression. If Phelps can get dive (pun intended) into depression, I think us, mere mortals are certainly not above it in any way or fashion.
What I am trying to say is that the best, most drive, most focus, most hard working, extraordinary person on earth can have depression. Or stress. Or burnout. Phelps limits are not ours, we would never be capable of his features, yet, he could not escape falling into the darkness.
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I never knew 'burnout' was an actual medical diagnosis. Always thought it was just a term people used. Maybe in different countries it's used differently?
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I was diagnosed with burnout 3 times and the cause was physical and mental exhaustion. Either all my doctors (including GPs, pshychiatris and neurologists) were wrong, or something is being missed. Maybe in translation?
Perhaps... Did they use the word burnout or esgotamento? I've noticed that doctors tend to use words that will be accepted.
But Anjae, I'm shocked and amazed! Three burnouts? How did you manage that? How did you recover?
It end ups being very similar/the same thing as stress and/or depression and/or exhaustion. It looks a bit different in the 3 points list, but very much the same in the 12 points list. All those 3 things are present in depression, they can be present in stress, and at least two can, and often are, present in exhaustion. Many times the 3 are present in exhaustion.
Not always, but this difficulty in differentiating aspects of some types of depression is a criticism of burnout. I haven't added a full description here of the three categories, which can be seen better here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christina_Maslach/publication/277816643_The_Maslach_Burnout_Inventory_Manual/links/5574dbd708aeb6d8c01946d7.pdf (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christina_Maslach/publication/277816643_The_Maslach_Burnout_Inventory_Manual/links/5574dbd708aeb6d8c01946d7.pdf)
Essentially, and osb has also been talking a lot about it, high energy MLCers are like addicts.
Yup... But why these behaviors, not others? We all have our obsessions, in the Neolimbic brain, although they are hidden from us. Yet we don't have MLC. We all have the possibility of having drug addictions too. Yet not everyone does, even if we take addictive substances. It's not only personality traits which affect addiction, but basic attitudes from childhood like trust and existential security.
Introvert and extrovert to me have more to do on how people process things that with being, or not being, social. I am social, but I am also someone who loves to be alone. The real Mr J is similar to me.
That's pretty much true... Introversion /extroversion is defined as how you gain your energy. We're all a mix. Introverts need more time by themselves, but can be very sociable.
As you have seen on the link Kikki posted about depression, depression has to do with the hippocampus (among other things in the brain, it is not just that). It is not related to personality.
Ok, every thought and feeling, all learning, actions, etc. have a place in the brain. Without this, they wouldn't exist. It's a basic mechanism of brain function, and a deep issue of the mind body issue. However, the different regions interreact with each other, and develop, most essentially, in social context, without which there is no brain development. And research shows, consistently, that personality affects how people react to stressors. Here's an example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395612000350 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395612000350)
If the marriage/spouse was the problem, once they leave and have OW/OM they should had become happy. They don't. So, being unhappy in the marriage is not the reason. When MLCers say they are unhappy in the marriage it is the depression talking.
Ah! I know I was being provocative with this. We do know that first marriages fail and lower rates than second marriages. So some people either make bad choices, don't know how to adjust to marriage, or have unrealistic expectations of marriage. I added this provocation because sometimes marriages end because of unhappiness, and subsequent marriages do work. We don't know all the cases here, and can't guarantee that they're all about MLC.
Apart from that, I agree that our confused MLCers won't find happiness in false projections.
Many of us, including myself, have faced severe stress and depression, and not engaged in escapist behaviors
As you have said, there are levels, and people aren't all affected the same way by the same thing. Stress and depression are enough to explain what we see. It is all very simple to explain with neurobiology/neuroscience/biology. X affects Z, that in turns has reaction R, which will lead to T. The effects of stress and/or depression are clearly explained in neurobiology/neuroscience. Also in endocrinology.
Even neurologists and biologists recognize the role of social context for at least 50% of behaviour!
And you do not know how you will react if stress and depression hit you on a level that leads you into crisis, do you? No one knows. Not even those who have previously suffered depression and/or stress.
This is true. We don't know. On the other hand, not all our MLCers have faced extreme stress. Most importantly, they face aspects of their lives that they can't accept, which becomes stressful.
Personality disorders do not show all of a sudden when people are in their 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s. They show in adolescence, often earlier, the latter until very early adulthood. A person with a personality disorder is easy to spot and is not capable of hiding it. Let alone for decades and from their spouse.
Yes, it's true they don't appear but no, they're not always easy to spot, even for trained psychologists. We're not talking about extreme PDs, in most cases, but several people have had a realization that their spouse is on the unhealthy side of the scale.
Depression also affects several chemicals and hormones (hormones, by the way, are chemicals, but to make it easy, one usually says hormones when referring to certain chemicals).
I guess most of us know this, but thank you for the reminder in case there is anyone out there with any doubt.
I don't give much relevance to the FOO issues. Those alone would not lead anyone into crisis. In fact, they hadn't for decades, have they? The crisis mode only arises if there is a certain degree of stress and depression (the degree would be different for each person, but it is above a normal level), that becomes out of hand.
Isn't that the point? Coping styles are learnt, and reactions to stressors are based on personality, which develops in social context. There's no doubt that FOO has significant effect on behaviour, and this can be felt decades later. There's a lot of science in this, too much to even begin here.
there is a coping style, which is inevitably learnt,...
Then, how does one explain that many were perfectly capable of coping, often with extremely difficult things, without any problem? .....My view is that we are all (LBS & MLCs) enduring something that has treatment/solution. Much I think of it, I cannot see the point of MLC, not even of my own. I just think mine happened because, at BD, I was not treated and advised the way I should had been.
Do you mean therapy, or pills? Therapy is about the person exploring aspects of themselves. I don't think there is a magic pill for MLC, like there is no magic pill for depression. There are antidepressants, but they're no good if the source of depression isn't removed. This is obvious, I think, for the most hardened neuroscientist.
The reason people stop being able to cope vary hugely. Tipping point theories have something going for them. We can all cope until we can't. The point of tolerance varies hugely. Haven't we all had little moments of coping, them snap? I wouldn't blame that on my brain, as if it were an organ separated from me!
My H was physically ill, depressed, burnt out, stressed, but his crisis was existential and emotional. He continued working. Suddenly OW seemed to present a way out. I can't be sure that she was the tipping point. But he eventually seemed to stop blaming me, and realized he wanted me. He still hadn't resolved his need to change his lifestyle. He's still depressed, fed up with life. Of course this registers in his hippocampus, but the stressor is exogenous and also attitudinal.
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I never knew 'burnout' was an actual medical diagnosis. Always thought it was just a term people used. Maybe in different countries it's used differently?
Yes, it is, though it does vary from country to country. Diagnoses also have cultural contexts!
Anjae, interesting about Phelps, he is extraordinary, but actually people who push themselves to their limits already have a very specific psychology, including many perfectionists, etc. There's a reason why they need so desperately to succeed. People who are comfortable with themselves and their lives are more rarely so driven.
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I find this so interesting and had some questions.
1. What are common physical traits of MLC? Is it shark eyes? Rapid aging? I think that this is key to discovering at least some of neurological aspect.
2. What are highly typical quirks of MLC? Again, I think this may hold key to neurological aspect.
3. When the MLCer meets the OW/OM, do they know it will end up being a physical affair? I don't mean was it love at first sight, but it is common to report affair down/odd choice on this forum. Yet many MLCers have known this person for years. Obviously they are not like someone who suddenly decides to leave family for someone they only just met.
4. Is it true that MLCer is horrified by choice of OM/OW later later? I have read this on the site, but if many knew beforehand would that not necessarily be true?
5. Why does MLCer project so much anger/hatred/revenge into spouse? I agree with Anjae it seems like many here are not happy with OW/OM but remain angry with LBS. Why? (WHY?😭) In my own case for example there are many people my husband could obviously attribute his anger to besides me.
6. What makes this change so very sudden? If the MLCer is not true narcopath/NPD/BPD it seems like they could not carry on convincing charade for very long. What is likely length of plan to leave?
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I find this so interesting and had some questions.
1. What are common physical traits of MLC? Is it shark eyes? Rapid aging? I think that this is key to discovering at least some of neurological aspect.
People often report dead eyes. From depression, perhaps? Shark eyes sounds like evasiveness, if they're feeling guilty. But it's not the key to discovering a neurological aspect. The neurology reflects behaviour, feelings, which come from personality, social world, attitudes.
2. What are highly typical quirks of MLC? Again, I think this may hold key to neurological aspect.
These are described in a lot of posts, but vary hugely. MLC is unlikely to be caused by a neurological event, like most social behaviour. There is always a neurological correspondence in all thoughts, feelings, personality and behaviour, which develop in social context. There is no evidence whatsoever, despite musings here, that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like an anurism or a stroke!!! It's so clearly not!
3. When the MLCer meets the OW/OM, do they know it will end up being a physical affair? I don't mean was it love at first sight, but it is common to report affair down/odd choice on this forum. Yet many MLCers have known this person for years. Obviously they are not like someone who suddenly decides to leave family for someone they only just met.
Some are affair downs, some are mirroring of their ideal opposite sex selves. Some leave with people they've only just met. Sometimes they " fall in love", which is not the same as loving someone different chemical and social process). No one knows what and when they decide, and there's no reason to think they're all the same.
4. Is it true that MLCer is horrified by choice of OM/OW later later? I have read this on the site, but if many knew beforehand would that not necessarily be true?
some are later ashamed, some are not.
5. Why does MLCer project so much anger/hatred/revenge into spouse? I agree with Anjae it seems like many here are not happy with OW/OM but remain angry with LBS. Why? (WHY?😭) In my own case for example there are many people my husband could obviously attribute his anger to besides me.
They are unhappy with themselves, but can't face this or don't understand it. They feel unhappy, so project that on the person nearest them. We don't have full access to our unconscious brain.
6. What makes this change so very sudden? If the MLCer is not true narcopath/NPD/BPD it seems like they could not carry on convincing charade for very long. What is likely length of plan to leave?
Some changes are sudden, some are not. Sudden changes are like getting to tipping point, when suddenly they can't cope with their lives (the last straw breaks the camel's back), or the presence of OW/OM means they feel there's a better life out there, rather than fixing their existing one.
Time varies, sometimes days, months, years... Some don't return, I'm afraid. That's why it's so important to GAL and detach. Take care. Hope without expectations! Xxx
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I don't think shark eyes are evasive. They look very flat. I am very dim since about April and no contact since May, but before that I saw a very strange look that reminded me of dementia. I saw this over and over again. For me, and because this is so commonly reported, I think this is a clue that something neurological has happened.
Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.
Anyhow, I do think that whatever this is affects parts of brain related to decision making, personality, and impulse control. I think that again at a certain point the person may be on a verge of MLT, but something pushes them into MLC and whatever that is becomes out of control and ruled by subconscious/impulses/neurological forces. I think this is why for many it closely resembles a mental illness.
From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.
My husband is a very extreme MLCer and has family history of MLC, mental illness, and depression so I may be more inclined to see it this way than someone observing a milder MLC with inlaws who are just as bewildered etc.
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This is an interesting discussion!!! My stbx has that look. I really noticed it more a couple of months ago. He looked blank and like there wasn't too much thinking going on. He spends a lot of time looking at social media and playing games like angry birds. I haven't spent much time with him in the last several months since he is a vanisher and in replay. He does drink a lot, took up smoking, move to trending area with all new furniture. He wants to be about 23 again. He married for the first time at 21. It lasted 4 years. It seems to me he regrets those years that he didn't get to be carefree and cool after college.
Does anyone think the time they lock themselves in is about what they regret or the time they enjoyed the most?
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I don't think shark eyes are evasive. They look very flat. I am very dim since about April and no contact since May, but before that I saw a very strange look that reminded me of dementia. I saw this over and over again. For me, and because this is so commonly reported, I think this is a clue that something neurological has happened.
This is where it's hard to develop one solid set of "traits" for MLC (and I don't actually believe it matters if we do or don't). We are not all trained at the same "school of MLC"; what one person's 'shark eyes' is will by definition not be the same as another LBS's interpretation. Without pictures to compare to of what we mean, we can only go by the power of each others' words to correlate things, and in many cases, we may be discussing two completely different things. Taking those concepts and running with them, then, leads us on a fruitless chase for answers.
I think I know what Velika means by shark eyes. For mine, his pupils dilated larger and the blue washed out (another LBS, after seeing a picture, said she would have never guessed him to be blue eyed). It's hard to describe more physical attributes of it; he just literally had a different face suddenly, and has maintained it. Only a few times, early on, did I see his "old face". It wasn't because he loved me again or his personality changed. Velika and I have the similarity that our spouses were on or discontinued (apologies, V, I can't remember if you said yours stopped taking them) mood altering drugs around the time these traits appeared. That is certainly not the case for everyone here and "shark eyes" really may be just a display of emotion or guilt that is foreign.
All we can do is interpret to the best of our abilities what we went through and observed and try to reconcile that. Without a willing patient, it's so hard to test. ;) If only!
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Velika, I think you are spot on in your observations.
Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.
Very true - their new passions are rarely age-appropriate, or at least stage in life appropriate. My H, while he has toned it down some, went through a stage where he did dress like a teenager. So inappropriate and embarrassing.
From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.
Yes. My husband used to be the most caring, sweetest, sensitive guy. His inability to empathize with the people he used to love the most in the world is absolutely frightening.
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Velika, I think you are spot on in your observations.
Some quirks that I have noticed or read include leaving with almost nothing, dressing like a younger person, talking like a teenager, and fantasy thinking about the future. This seems to happen across the board. Again I feel this might indicate neurological. I think if this were simply crisis of identity it wouldn't so consistently be like a teenager. (For example it doesn't seem like MLCers are suddenly passionate about nautical history, genealogy, or gardening or other areas of interest typically pursued by older adults.) Leading up to the crisis my husband exercised more and dressed nicer. These seem like positive moves. But once the "break" occurred this quickly devolved into gaining weight and styling his hair like a teen, wearing too-young, too-tight clothes. I feel this is also a little like dementia, like someone who doesn't really know what period of their lives they are living in.
Very true - their new passions are rarely age-appropriate, or at least stage in life appropriate. My H, while he has toned it down some, went through a stage where he did dress like a teenager. So inappropriate and embarrassing.
From what I have read and observed, number one trait of MLC is lack of empathy. I see this consistently. In fact, in some ways I see this as a person's sudden inability to empathize. I read elsewhere that it was like watching an ordinary person turn into a sociopath. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic, it really does often feel this way.
Yes. My husband used to be the most caring, sweetest, sensitive guy. His inability to empathize with the people he used to love the most in the world is absolutely frightening.
I agree in the descriptions... They do seem to regress, and it seems to be a frequently reported occurrence. Their behaviour is different, their empathy reduced.
What I disagree with is that this is just a neurological occurrence, as if it happened on its own without any input from the social world.
All behaviours, learning, memory and personality are developed in social context, and have a corresponding neurology. Our reptilian and paleolimbic brains affect our reactions to stress, trust, confidence, developed in very early infancy (existential security), but developed throughout our lives, although childhood is more significant. Our neolimbic brain is the source of emotions, obsessions, learning and motivations, which to personality traits. It might seem that we have one personality, but in fact we don't, we have 2-4, some of which are overt, and others hidden. It is not surprising therefore that other personalities seem to arise at a moment of stress and confusion.
Moreover, if some deep motivations in the neolimbic brain are ignored for long enough, it is likely to be a source of frustration which can suddenly bubble up to the surface.
I've also noticed that reduced empathy is commonly reported. Did you know that we are all innately egocentric? It's the action of the right supramarginal gyrus, at the junction of the parietal, temporal and frontal lobe, that autocorrects lack of empathy? But cortisol, from stress, can impare it. It's also impaired by comfort. If our MLCers feel comfortable (albeit temporarily) with their new partner, lifestyle, and avoiding what made them feel stressed in the first place, they will have less empathy for those who are suffering.
There is also a genetic component to how happy we are in marriage. The length of the 5-HTTLPR polymorphism in serotonin transporter gene affects how we react to positive and negative emotions. Those with a shorter version of this gene are more sensitive to emotions, whereas those with a longer version are less reactive. This means that if there is any negativity, it will be felt more deeply by those with a shorter version of this gene, and may make them less tolerant of it. A source of stress.
So, in conclusion, we are biological beings, but develop in a social world which affects the development and expression of our identity. Stresses, genetics, and ignored motivations can certainly lead to the sometimes sudden changes we see, and apparent personality changes are actually the manifestations of covert personalities. In the meanwhile, many of them are still searching for meaning in their lives... My H was very confused.
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Esgotamento in the late 90s and early 2000 (I do not recall the word burnout to be around by then or have ever read or heard it at the time), burnout in 2011 and the doctors said it was the same things as before. The neurologist, the flirts times used no word at all, just said that I had burned everything and need to recover and slow down.
The first time I was much younger. My mum went and looked after me (Mr J was working away). The recovery was not that hard. But I think the doctors, bar for the neurologist, made a few mistakes, which may had lead to the latter incidents. At least to the second one. The first time, one of the things I start complaining of was headaches. After a while the GP gave me a med that, indeed made the headaches go away, but also my monthly cycles. For 8 or 9 months I had no monthly cycles and lost a lot weight (two of the side effects of the med). When I was off that med, my hormones were crazy and several problems come with it.
Looking back, what the GP and the health centre psychiatrist should have done was to give me minerals and vitamins, advice a good diet, rest, and slowly, activities that would stimulate me. They did nothing of the sort. The GP only liked meds, the pshychiatrits did nothing except to say she was not equipped to deal with the problem and send me to the neurologist. The neurologist thought (and was probably right), that I had a very mild form o epilepsy that is triggered by extreme stress and physical exhaustion. He gave me no meds, recommended that I keep swimming and take things easy.
Second time I skipped the doctors meds ideas. After the mess they did the first time with the meds, I was having none of it. It was more difficult to battle the depression without meds. Again, it took time and adjustment is lifestyle.
Third time I was actually taking an anti-anxiety pill and an atypical anti-depressant, but the complete physical and mental exhaustion still knock on the door. This recovery was the slower of all. I was older, there has been MLC left, centre and right (mine, Mr J, cousin), I was not in my flat, but back home and having to tend to grandmother.
Actually, I think it depends of our brain. Some of us are more susceptible to become and addict, than others. I have no idea why these behaviours, other than they provide adrenaline.
Osb husband climbed mountains, Mr J djs and goes clubbing, Kiki's husband even got to skaboarding and broke his arm. Your husband, like my cousin, seems to wallow. They suffer from a more overt depression. ´
The drinking, for those who get to it, seems pretty obvious, it is more or less the default drug of choice when one wants to drawn our sorrows. Plus, it is legal. But since MLCers are depressed, with alcohol, that is a depressant in itself, they become more depressed and their brains are probably much more susceptible to addiction.
Trust and existential security will not prevent anyone from becoming an addict if their brains have a propensity to it.
Mermaid, I have seen all types of people having depression and becoming an addict. Plus, neurotic, to me, is an Woody Allen character, or Allen himself. It means nothing to be. Neurotic used to be what psychiatrist would say women were. That and hysterical.
True, sometimes a first marriage ends because of unhappiness, or because both people decide to end it, and a second, or third will work. But that is not the case for our MLCers, so, it is not a factor that has relevance.
Of course people do not live in a vacuum. Of course the type of place/society they were raised in will affect how they behave. Portuguese cheek kiss in pretty much all situations, Americans do not. If a person grown up in the jungle the behaviour is going to be different from a person that grew up in the city. That is obvious. None of that changes the fact that, in depression, X will affect y that will result in T.
Pills. Anti-anxiety ones to allow me to cut on the stress and anxiety, and allow me to sleep. Also minerals and vitamins. Therapy is not for me, plus there is no point in therapy if one is under deep stress. First the stress has to be cut down. And the depression has to be reduced. And therapy does not do it. It requires something that has an effect on the nervous system. I was given valerian pills by the doctor of Mr J's company. Valerian pills do nothing for such high levels of stress. I could not sleep well, I was always on.
The anti-anxiety pills, or antidepressants, are useful as a first response. It is not possible to reach someone who is in such turmoil until they have reached a more balanced place. Only then, for those who like therapy, can therapy come in. First you need to put the fire out, then you think what has to change so that there is no more fire.
What the pills do, providing they are the right ones for the person, is to allow for clarity of mind/reduced stress/uplifted mood. When those exist, usually a person is capable of seeing what needs to change.
But you are also not separated from your brain. :-) And it is not a case of blame, but of what happens. When I snap it is because I am too tired. My body and brain can no longer cope. I need rest and sleep.
I agree, one has to be pretty driven to get to his level. And he is a perfectionists and was always obsessed with the perfect stroke and beating one more record/swim in as less time as possible. He was very different in Rio, not even minding not winning the gold in the 100m butterfly, being all smiley, all happy.
Phelps had ADHS as a child, he was a disaster in school, but had an extraordinary mum, a middle school teacher, who find ways of helping her son http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/1998.html
It is dead eyes, the MLCer eyed are dead. There is no life there. Depression does that.
Come on Trusting, what would be the point of age, or life stage appropriated passions? ::) The MLCer already had those, and they didn't want them.
I don't believe in covert personalities. That would be like saying a person who is suffering from thyroid problems, or who suffers changes because of peri-menopapuse is showing their personality number 2 or 3. Multiple personality disorder is a serious thing, and that is not our MCLers or anyone who does not suffer from multiple personality disorder has.
I really don't like that thing from psychology and psychiatry where there is always the need to put labels on people and always trying to find something else that does not even exist. Like ego. There is no such thing as ego, other than a theory from some esteemed psychoanalysts. You cannot find ego in any brain scan. Nor id. Nor self.
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Thank you for your story, Anjae! Wow! You went through quite a lot. Was it work that exhausted you? Do you think it helps you understand Mr J's problems?
Our brains do vary, physically, genetically, of course. But it's never the whole story. Addiction is also about a person, who develops a sense of self in social context. So, an addict I know, for example, is constantly being criticised by his dad and pampered by his mum. His confidence is low, and resilience lower still.
I'm sorry to hear that you don't believe in psychology, psychiatry, etc. I think you are missing a huge chunk of knowledge which may be helpful and interesting. But these are really not religions to be believed in or not, they're sciences, with peer reviewed evidence. Perhaps you'd prefer to discover it yourself next time you do another MOOC?
There is a neurobiology of the self, related to consciousness. No, you can't see it on a brain scan, as its a construct from the interaction of different areas. Here's Antonio Damasio, top neuroscientist, talking about how it's done. https://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_damasio_the_quest_to_understand_consciousness?language=en (https://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_damasio_the_quest_to_understand_consciousness?language=en)
Damasio is one of Portugal's top exportas to the USA. His wife, Hannah, is more in the lab, while Antonio writes the books/ dose the talks. Ive had the pleasure of hearing him talk, and read most of his books (which are all in English and Portuguese). I'm sure you'd find them interesting, Anjae, as you've started your path of discovery in neuroscience.
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Very interesting academic discussion....
I just wanted to comment on the empathy thing-- or rather, lack thereof.
It was interesting to read that it is connected to comfort, in that if they feel comfortable in their new lives they will have less empathy for those who suffer as a result of their choices.... it makes sense, of course.
And yes, that is exactly what I've seen. Whenever there is a new OW or something new and exciting off he goes, no thought for us; when he's not so pulled by something else we see some thought for us.
I guess that might be a simplistic way of describing MLC cycling; when the replay activities (or whatever they are in the later years) give the necessary high the empathy button is in the off position; when things aren't going so well they may cycle towards us.
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I agree in the descriptions... They do seem to regress, and it seems to be a frequently reported occurrence. Their behaviour is different, their empathy reduced. What I disagree with is that this is just a neurological occurrence, as if it happened on its own without any input from the social world. All behaviours, learning, memory and personality are developed in social context, and have a corresponding neurology.
MLC is unlikely to be caused by a neurological event, like most social behaviour. There is always a neurological correspondence in all thoughts, feelings, personality and behaviour, which develop in social context. There is no evidence whatsoever, despite musings here, that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like an anurism or a stroke!!! It's so clearly not!
I think we're all talking about the same thing, but describing with different words. I believe (with evidence, as I understand it) that MLC is a disease that starts in the brain, like a depression. No, not like an aneurism, but in the sense that disordered thinking tends to involve disorder in the organ that does the thinking.
As a psychologist, you may emphasize an individual's social context, the personal history and interactions. As a physiologist, I may understand those memories as newly developed connections between neurons, tangible structures that hold memories and associations. A biochemist might say it's all in the neurotransmitters that come to play at the feathery ends of those connections. But a physicist would say that these molecules interacting is all about physics; and my mathematician friend would insist that all biology come down to math, in the end! None of these are wrong. There's no chicken-and-egg about it; they are all simultaneously true. But on this board, we each view the world of MLC through the filter that best permits us to understand it.
So this is your discussion; if you prefer to focus on psychology, we can retire neurological aspects of MLC to another conversation.
Loss of empathy seems to be a marker of MLC. Empathy is innate, in the sense that infants have empathy (some cool - and adorable - behavioral studies on this). It seems such a shattering of the human self, to lose that sense. I can remember when my H's empathy evaporated - that was what I associated with H's shark eyes, dead in their sockets like coals in a pit; not a glimmer of interest or humour or caring for anything but his own crazed self. 180-degree change from the man he was before. During MLC, H did some 'playing hero' for assorted people (mostly OWs), but that sure felt like attempts to shore himself up, not truly caring for them. The point when I started to believe my H's MLC was over, was when the expression in his eyes returned to normal; and he started to feel empathy (not for me, to begin with! but for anyone).
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I just wanted to comment on the empathy thing-- or rather, lack thereof.
It was interesting to read that it is connected to comfort, in that if they feel comfortable in their new lives they will have less empathy for those who suffer as a result of their choices.... it makes sense, of course.
And yes, that is exactly what I've seen. Whenever there is a new OW or something new and exciting off he goes, no thought for us; when he's not so pulled by something else we see some thought for us.
Do you think he is pulled back by empathy though, or self interest? Is it that he somehow is focusing all his empathy on the OWs, or is he just getting something from them, and absent of that goes back to another source of comfort?
I really think lack of empathy is key to MLC. Whether this is depression or something like depression I'm not sure. But osb is right, even small babies have empathy. My dog shows empathy! I think it is innate to many species and mammals in particular.
I have heard people with a psychological background say that this lack of empathy is a tool of cognitive dissonance. It is hard for me to see though how this would apply in a MLC case where lack of empathy seems to be demonstrated across the board and in such an extreme way. I agree with osb that the type of "caring" shown by a MLCer seems more self-centered. Of course I have wondered many times if my husband was always low on empathy (and that may be). However — and I may be incorrect — there is a difference from not being the type of person who goes out to make the spouse chicken soup when he/she is sick and someone who flaunts an affair to the spouse.
I have noticed in my experience and in others that an especially "manic" (monster) MLCer is mistrustful of empathetic gestures. I tried to be very understanding at several points and my MLC husband saw this as weakness or manipulative. He only seems to remember the things I said when I was angry, not the things I said when I was wanting to be kind. It's almost like it doesn't register
I don't know enough about the brain or psychology to know if the part of the mind that generates empathy is the same part that perceives it, but I think it would be interesting. Again, I feel like the empathy part (and especially since so often reported with "shark eyes") is key to a neurological understanding of MLC as so many here experience on this board.
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Actually, I think it depends of our brain. Some of us are more susceptible to become and addict, than others. I have no idea why these behaviours, other than they provide adrenaline.
That's interesting, Anjae. I saw a study years ago taken with a group of teenagers. Some came from alcoholic families and some didn't. They hooked them all up to record how they reacted to drinking a very strong alcoholic drink. None of them had ever drank alcohol before.
The results were amazing. The kids who came from alcoholic families react very differently, physically, to the drink than the other non-alcoholic family kids did. So it proved that some people may very well be genetically susceptible to becoming an addict.
Of course that's not the only reason, but it does explain why some people can drink for years and never become addicted, while others can become addicted so fast.
Not sure this has anything to do with MLC, but this whole discussion is interesting.
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I'm glad you find it interesting, Thundar. I do too. The truth is we don't know what causes MLC, and are guessing here with very unscientific research (through our polls). This doesn't mean this is a worthless discussion, quite the opposite. It's just not statistically valid. Osb, I'm sure, as a researcher, you'll understand what I mean by that.
I'm going to start with an admission of knowledge, and lack of it too. I'm a uni researcher with a PhD in an area of interdisciplinary social science. So I am not a neurologist, obviously, although my area does include neurological considerations. I've had about 20 years research experience in socio cognitive development, which means that I look at how biological development is affected by social context. I tell you this so that you know where I'm coming from. Obviously, as a researcher, I consider all challenges to research. The difference between belief and science is that science is always being revised by new evidence. So, as much as those with a neurological Background may be frustrated by my points of view, I actually think we should have a lot to say to each other. We complete each other's points of view.
I think the discussion shouldn't be limited to social or neurological, but how they affect each other. Neurological is fascinating. Don't leave it out of this thread!
On the other hand, a serious conversation about this shouldn't be about what we believe or don't believe. I'm not interested in a discussion of faith and belief. Before someone complains, I'm not dismissing faiths here, just saying that I'm trying to keep this at a scientific level. That means excluding what we think or believe unless we have evidence for it.
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Like seeing my H have real hot flashes? ::)
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So, let's discuss what we know so far, and start with a definition from RRR:
A normal life event—midlife transition—that has escalated to crisis levels of emotional and mental turmoil. Denial and attempts to avoid the transition yield crisis which manifests through avoidance, regression and depression and in the context of a marriage often includes infidelity and separation. MLCers react overtly with outward destruction; whether intentional or not, an MLCer hurts other people in significant ways
So... by definition, this emotional and mental turmoil is a reaction to an exogenous event... A normal life event. Of course it will have a neurological corollary. A crisis means stress, depression or burnout ( a particular type of work-related stress, according to the Maslach inventory.) Almost everyone in our poll acknowledged stress, depression our burnout. The reaction can be understood as an adaptive mechanism to perceived stress. We've been looking at what these mechanisms are, and how they explain some reactions like apparent personality changes and lack of empathy, confused thinking, etc. I suppose osb can explain the neurology of this better than I can.
On the other hand, yes, our brains are different. Our genetics are different, and our adaptive mechanisms vary according to our learned resources. I've cited research that shows how differently people react to stress and depression. It's not just down to our DNA, but to our life path, emotional resources.
There is nothing in our neurological development which happens without social context, starting with very early social interaction, such as crying or smiling. So Piaget's developmental stages, which correspond to approximate periods of neurological reorganisation, are now seen as depending on social context.
So it is with our MLCer. Whatever reactions they have to the outside world will depend on resources, social and emotional history, opportunities and restraints. There's always an interaction. There is always a self, or selves, to be renegotiated.
On the other hand, the stress they feel will have neurological consequences beyond what they, or we, can cognitively understand. It's so important for our understanding to work out what they are.
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Like seeing my H have real hot flashes? ::)
If you've seen that, Thunder, that sounds like evidence rather than belief or opinion.
Of course we know that our perceptions here are subjective (hard to get away from that), but it's as good as we can get here.
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Here's a piece of anecdotal evidence about my H's case that might be interesting.
When he was at the beginning of his MLC, just before BD, actually, he had transient global amnesia after doing physical effort on a hot day. He was unable to form new memories for about 10-12 hours, which meant he asked the same questions over and over, was very confused, and could not do anything by himself which required new learning. So he went to hospital and had a brain scan, and they found nothing wrong. The same thing happened about a year later, mid MLC. For a while I thought it was related to his MLC, but Actually problem was metabolic, and caused by statins for blood pressure. It's well documented now that statins could do this. It lasts for a few hours, and leaves no long term effects.
The link between MLC and statins? None.
The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.
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The link between MLC and statins? None.
Has this been studied? How can we assume there is none if not?
The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.
What is a complete neurological exam? Is this a brain scan? An MRI? What did it measure?
Very interesting on the timing of these events.
Also, since the topic of empathy came up, very low heart rate and blood pressure is a physical marker of sociopathy. So who knows, perhaps there is a connection between heart rate and ability to empathize etc.
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The link between MLC and statins? None.
Has this been studied? How can we assume there is none if not?
I think we can assume it hasn't been studied, as MLC studies focus on psychological reactions! Unless there are other MLCers out there who took statins?
However, studies have found the stress is associated with increased cholesterol. So stressed people are more likely than average to take statins. A quick search tuned up dozens of pieces of research, including this:
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=620270 (http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=620270)
There is research about the effect of statins. Here's one piece: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1592/phco.29.7.800/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1592/phco.29.7.800/abstract)
Not everyone who has high cholesterol and takes statins is stressed. But stressed people may take statins and other medication. TGA from statins is episodic and lasts less than a day.
The interest here? My H had a complete neurological examination and was normal, apart from temporary confusion and memory loss.
What is a complete neurological exam? Is this a brain scan? An MRI? What did it measure?
He had a brain scan plus a set of other neurological tests. You can see a description here https://meded.ucsd.edu/clinicalmed/neuro2.htm (https://meded.ucsd.edu/clinicalmed/neuro2.htm)
Very interesting on the timing of these events.
Yes, I thought so at first. But then my H stopped taking the statins when he realized the association, had no more TGA episodes, but continued in crisis mode for some years. He's still depressed, because he's not living the life he wants, or doing what he wants in work.
Also, since the topic of empathy came up, very low heart rate and blood pressure is a physical marker of sociopathy. So who knows, perhaps there is a connection between heart rate and ability to empathize etc.
I understand that you're looking for associations. But in the case of low heart rate and BP, these are signs of many things, mostly extreme health. Most athletes have low BP/resting heart rate.
On an earlier thread I posted a link about reduced empathy (in normal, non psychopaths) when stressed and also when very comfortable.
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One more thing; my MLCer turned into a talker at ML. He's normally very quiet, and talks little (too little) about his feelings, like many men who end up stressed.
At ML, he told me details of his life I'd never heard before, along with a lot of emotions which seemed to bubble up from his subconscious. He treated me like his psychologist, actually, but seemed to have little awareness of my needs and feelings (loss of empathy). So, I got a lot of insight, because I listened actively, without showing my feelings when he was talking in this mode. (I did tell him what I thought at other times, and did everything we're advised not to do too... I'm human!)
It gave me a strong insight into his mind; his confusion, anguish, resentments, hopes, dreams... Notably, his sense of future was severely impaired. This, as people have found elsewhere, is a symptom of stress, as is the confusion.
He felt trapped by his life, and blamed me for it. He even told me he hated me (something he has no memory of now), and said the biggest mistake in his life was walking down the aisle with me. But he talked about all his life experiences and how they affected him, including going to military school age 9, his mother's attitude to him, his relationship and regrets with his father, who was violently killed.
I'd known for some years that he'd felt trapped and was stressed and unhappy. A lot of his stress reactions were how he reacted to life, and most certainly his perfectionist personality. So MLC was not a sudden event in his case.
He did change... But his changes were associated with escaping, with OW, his mirror narcisist, feeling happy in his escape. He did seem to have a lot of empathy for her, protecting her.
On the other hand, he was a boomerang. And actually I realized that he was dependent on me, emotionally, something he also blamed me for, as if I'd done it on purpose. When he had his second TGA episode, it wasn't OW he wanted, but me. When his TGA was over, he was off again. The best thing I did was to tell him to go, if he wanted to go. And to be independent myself. He realized what he wanted.
I'm not saying that all cases are like mine. I don't think all MLC is alike, with one pathway, although they share certain characteristics. However, I do have pretty good insight into what happened to my H. It clearly started with stress, which was greater because of his personality. He is who he is because of his development in the social world, so I cannot accept, in his case, that there was a unique neurological event in his case. I know there was not, but I also know that a person is not a fully aware, rational being, and the neurology of stress, meds, etc. has its effect.
If there are people here who, for any reason, find that there is no precursor, and that the flip is sudden, unexpected, and unexplainable in any other than a pure neurological event, that just goes to show how different all these cases are.
By the way, it might be interesting for some of you to read about the neuroscience of personality. It shows how a person develops neurologically as an adaptive response to the social world.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~cdeyoung/Pubs/DeYoung_2010_personality_neuroscience_SPPC.pdf (http://www.tc.umn.edu/~cdeyoung/Pubs/DeYoung_2010_personality_neuroscience_SPPC.pdf)
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Fascinating stuff. Mine also said he hated me early on and we should never have married. That he wouldn't even talk to me if we met in a bar. No empathy, memory loss etc. He's still burnt out and suicidal-thinks he's been like this his whole life. Also says he's always hated sex (he hasn't!)
Yet the last two times he's visited the kids...we've ended up going to gigs together.
X
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Fascinating stuff. Mine also said he hated me early on and we should never have married. That he wouldn't even talk to me if we met in a bar. No empathy, memory loss etc. He's still burnt out and suicidal-thinks he's been like this his whole life. Also says he's always hated sex (he hasn't!)
Yet the last two times he's visited the kids...we've ended up going to gigs together.
There's often lots of projection, strong emotions, desire to escape/avoid what they feel is stressful for them. In my case, he boomeranged right back, and now doesn't remember (or admit to) leaving, or hating me.
I'm not saying your case will be like mine, but just saying it can happen. Hope without expectations.
Take care, and enjoy those boomerang moments for what they are. Xxxx
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Bumping this up in case anyone wants to vote before voting ends tomorrow.
Mx
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Mermaid, the poll is closed.
Would you like to post some thoughts/conclusion, before the thread being archived?