Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: OldPilot on November 16, 2016, 09:17:31 AM
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Previous threads
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8392.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8399.0
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Finding, if I was mistaken, pardon me. I said earlier much gets lost in context online.
I am a Bernie supporter. Voted for him in both the primary as well as the general election, even if I knew my vote wouldn't count.
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Bill wasn't on the ticket since the 90's. Hillary is, and she was the victim. If you want to get on Hillary for having a cheating spouse, why are you on this site? We support each other!
I feel that blaming Hillary for Bill's indiscretions isn't right at all. Not then and certainly not now.
Let's not compare Trump's philandering, constant disrespect to women and tons of others to a man that has been out of the White House for 20 - 30 years.
Well said, SF, especially on this site. And, Finding Hope, Trump runs his mouth and cheated on his wives. If you recall, people were appalled at how he went around town being photographed with Marla Maples proudly committing adultery while married to Ivana. And then there were the allegations in her divorce documents that he sexually assaulted her (Ivana) during their marriage, along with recent evidence of sexual harassment and assault and the child rape suit that was in process, but the victim was intimidated by threats and recently dropped the case. Donald Trump does not only "run his mouth" about racism, sexism, etc. he named a known and well-documented white nationalist/white supremist to one of his highest cabinet positions, has a vice president who supported legislation for conversion therapy. Banno is also the man who ran the ad: Would you rather your daughter have feminism or cancer? And he published a Breitbart headline calling former congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., a “human shield” for the gun-control movement, “ after she was shot at point blank range. You've likely heard that his wife also accused him of anti-semitism and domestic violence. And it goes on and on. And yesterday, Trump had an advisor sit in on a top secret briefing on National Security who is a consultant to Turkey. Hello? The so called checks and balances so many want to believe are in place are not and this puts our national security at risk. Trump is way over his head. Even he has admitted he did not understand the scope of the presidency.
This is not "running one's mouth." These are actions. These are core values. One does not name someone to their highest advisor position who does not share values and beliefs. And do some research on Guiliani. He has taken more money from speeches than Clinton and is intertwined with foreign monies to a more concerning extent. He too cheated on his wife and announced he was divorcing her at a press conference. Newt cheated multiple times and had to resign due to ethics violations....If you are going to bring cheating up, research Trump and his entourage and appointments first.
Phoenix
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Well the results keep trickling in....
Hillary now has over 1 million more votes than Trump. People did vote for her for president. :)
I agree with Elegance..The Electoral College has to go!
Btw, I wouldn't call what Bill had with Monica Lewinski an affair. Wrong but not an affair.
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Seriously, there should be an IQ test and a psychological profile done before people be allowed to vote.
Really? Again insinuating that people who disagree are somehow deficient? That's more than not being politically correct, that's being condescending and rude.
And Hillary a victim? Please!!!! Tell that to the relatives of the people in Benghazi.
The Electoral College has to go!
Ummmmm. No. I do not want a handful of states deciding who becomes President every time. Its as much about State's rights as it is about democracy. We are a representative democracy, not a majority rule democracy and I thank God everyday that our forefathers had the good sense to outline this in the constitution! Would you be calling for it so vociferously if you candidate had won?
Btw, I wouldn't call what Bill had with Monica Lewinski an affair. Wrong but not an affair.
Really? Seriously? Is that what you would say to a newbie who's husband had a one night stand? Or several? I'm appalled. Adultery/affair are interchangeable in my book. One is just a more "politically correct" term.
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Half of Americans believes their country just elected a racist, homophobic, sexist and the other half thinks we elected an open-minded guy who is no more sexist than most people. No matter which half of the country is right, the other half of the country is in a deep hallucination. We just don’t know which half. (Yes, I know that you know the other half is hallucinating. But keep in mind that the other half thinks you are the one hallucinating.)
The 3 threads and hundreds of posts here prove the truth of the statement above. Consider the possibility you might be wrong. Half of us must be wrong. Think about it.
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Well the results keep trickling in....
Hillary now has over 1 million more votes than Trump. People did vote for her for president. :)
I agree with Elegance..The Electoral College has to go!
Btw, I wouldn't call what Bill had with Monica Lewinski an affair. Wrong but not an affair.
I'm not exactly sure how this is viewed from a female perspective, but if my W had allowed another man to perform oral sex on her I would have most definitely viewed it as an affair whether it involved his Pen!$ or not.
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Phoenix,
In the previous thread I spoke about Mary Matalin and James Carville being on opposites sides of the political aisle. You stated that Mary Matalin had changed her party from Republican due to Trump. It is important to fact check in order not to mislead people. What you stated is factually incorrect. I am posting here a direct statement to the press by Mary Matalin. Her changing her party affiliation had nothing to do with Trump and she was not a Hillary supporter.
"Mary Matalin, a high-profile political pundit and veteran strategist for the Republican Party, changed her party registration to Libertarian from Republican, she said on Thursday.
But in an interview with Bloomberg Politics, which reported on the switch, she emphasized that her decision was not connected to Donald J. Trump’s being the presumptive Republican presidential nominee.
She described herself as a voter as a “provisional Trump” and a “never Hillary,” referring to the leading Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton.
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Bengazi another FOX myth. please stick to facts.
Who cares about Bill Clinton? why is that even a topic?
Talking about Bill Clinton now is just like being blamed for our spouse's MLC. lol
How old was Bill then? could it have been a MLC?
We can't compare a man who cheated on his wife to a man who constantly disrespects all women.
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Half of us must be wrong. Think about it.
I agree
or 26% and 26% and the other 48% don't care.
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"Mary Matalin, a high-profile political pundit and veteran strategist for the Republican Party, changed her party registration to Libertarian from Republican, she said on Thursday.
But in an interview with Bloomberg Politics, which reported on the switch, she emphasized that her decision was not connected to Donald J. Trump’s being the presumptive Republican presidential nominee.
She described herself as a voter as a “provisional Trump” and a “never Hillary,” referring to the leading Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton.
It was a news spot with her husband Carville in which he said that one test of how bad Trump is viewed is that he even made his (Carville's) wife change parties. In my opinion, either the spouses need to get their stories straight or Matalin, understandably, preferred Carville not let that one out of the bag because she was such a longtime, staunch member of the Republican party.
Phoenix
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Wow, this thread has really brought out the seedy underbelly of HS in ways I never expected. I haven't had a chance to read through all the first two threads yet but was simply appalled that someone had the gall to say they could understand why OP's wife left him due to his support of Trump. Statements like that could only come from someone with a cold, dark heart deep down as I never thought I would see that written to anyone here under any circumstance. And I was accused of being a communal narcissist. Geez.
On Obama, those of us who identify as being on the Christian Right have been not only marginalized over the past 8 years but completely been given the middle finger. This was never more apparent than when Obama had the audacity to shine the rainbow lights on the White House and other national monuments the day the activist SCOTUS decided to rewrite the Constitution rather than interpret it as they are supposed to. I was opposed to this decision from day 1 due to the fact that SCOTUS far exceeded their boundaries and I would hope a balanced SCOTUS throws this out and returns it to the way it should be, with states either having the right to decide or Congress making the law. I have no problem with gay marriage or if it's legal or not, I just want the government to operate how it's supposed to and it has not the past 8 years. Obama has done everything he can to divide this country and pit groups against each other all the while acting like a peacemaker. Ever wonder why he waits until he has fired people up to riot before telling them to "cut it out"? Why not tell them not to riot the next time a criminal gets shot or something doesn't go the way his party wants it to do. He's a war-monger through and through and his actions over the years cement that more than ever. And, btw, I could care less that he's popular in other countries such as the European ones. In fact, I don't really WANT our president to be popular in other countries as that indicates his interests are not based here. He's on our payroll so he should be popular here and not in England, Belgium or wherever. I also don't care that other countries like or don't like Trump. I can't even name the current PM of England or France as I honestly don't care, and the only reason I know Angela Merkel in Germany is because her idiocy has hurt her country so bad and I don't want to see our president make the same mistakes.
As for Hillary, never has there been a greater example of political elitism and corruption. She was hand-picked before the primary even started to be the next president and every action by the heavily corrupt DNC laid out the red carpet for that. Bernie never had a chance and Wikileaks has proven how deeply the corruption there went, even involving the news channel that hosted one of the debates! I can't imagine why any of his supporters would have supported Hillary after his followers were so dedicated and worked so very hard for the candidate they believed in. For the record, I like Bernie although I didn't agree with his policies. I wouldn't have voted for him but solely for that reason. With Hillary, I would have voted for Donald Duck before her as her entire career is marred by controversy and scandal. I saw where someone said she was being blamed for Bill's affairs and that's simply NOT TRUE. Bill has been documented and verified to have sexually assaulted several women over the past 30 years (Paula Jones anyone?) and Hillary intimidated and threatened them to keep them quite. Bill was her ticket to the top and she knew it, and she would stoop to any low it took to protect that meal ticket. Hillary cares about no one but herself and her own desires and the fact the completely dissed all of her supporters on election night because they were no longer of use to her proves that to a T.
Now as for Trump, I DO NOT agree with the things he said about women and would not condone any of the things he was accused of doing but it needs to be said that being accused is not the same as doing them. Several of the stories have proven to be false (the porn star who had just started her online business, the Apprentice contestant who asked him to show up at her restaurant, the 13 year-old who recanted) so I don't know if any of those are true. Knowing what it's like to be falsely accused I will NEVER convict someone based solely on the word of another and without a fair trial he is INNOCENT until proven guilty. So why vote for Trump? He offered a change from what we were used to and actually had a plan. Was some of it extreme? Yes, of course, but at least he had a plan and a direction to go in rather than saying he would just keep things as they are. Those of us who have been left out of the last 8 years want a change and we made that happen. Like it or not he's the leader of the free world now and the president of the most powerful country on Earth. I will hope and pray for his success and cannot understand anyone in this country hoping otherwise as it really is akin to hoping the pilot of the plane you're on fails because you don't like him or her. As for other countries who don't like Trump, mind your own business and fix your own problems before bashing us, and if you can't then call on your government to refuse to accept any aid from the US until Trump is out of office. Go ahead, do it.
Peace to you all.
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Thundarr,
The Wikileaks email of Hillary showed absolutely no crime was committed and was cleared by the FBI. Actually to do what the FBI did was against the law and shouldn't have been a public in their investigation in the first place.What it did do was raise doubts and speculation which really wasn't fair to her.
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Thundarr,
Totally agree. That one statement is what really had me angry. I worry that these are the same people going to give advise to the new and old people on this site. There is a lot of hate and anger. Maybe this isn't a safe place. I personally don't think that this is the place for those kind of discussions. Everyone always gets twisted when they talk politics.
FH
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What it did do was raise doubts and speculation which really wasn't fair to her.
Same thing they have been doing to Trump since he threw his hat in the ring. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion.
There is a lot of hate and anger. Maybe this isn't a safe place. I personally don't think that this is the place for those kind of discussions
I agree.
Welcome to the fray Thundarr. We are certainly in the minority. ;)
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Phoenix,
Your statement: "Matalin, understandably, preferred Carville not let that one out of the bag because she was such a longtime, staunch member of the Republican party. " is making the assumption that you know what Matalin thinks or you know what her motivation was. Unless you personally know her and she told you this, there is no way that you could make such an assumption.
To prove your point it is really important to stick to facts. If you wish to state your opinion or supposition than it should be noted as such in order not to make those who do not have the facts believe an untruth. Not fair.
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Thank you for your feedback, Sally Wood. I stand by what I said in regards to not believing Carville would say it if there wasn't some truth there, but have modiied my post to make it more clear this is my opinion.
Take care,
Phoenix
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As for other countries who don't like Trump, mind your own business and fix your own problems before bashing us, and if you can't then call on your government to refuse to accept any aid from the US until Trump is out of office. Go ahead, do it.
Um, Canada calls your bluff. ;)
Really, from the outside all we can see is your government-in-waiting awash in self-acknowledged white supremacists, homophobes, anti-feminists, and genuinely elite corporate CEOs. While that toxic combination may not represent the plurality of Trump's electorate (I'll take your word for it), Trump's platform was a profound negation of what truly made America great over the past 60 years - immigration and diversity. It makes America's allies uncomfortable. It makes America's minority citizens uncomfortable. So naturally, it makes many people on this board pretty uncomfortable.
And the world is less dependent on America's largesse than Americans might think. The centre of gravity has shifted, and American exceptionalism has a bitter taste. If Mr Trump choses to 'hold the world to account', there may indeed be many countries calling that bluff.
On the personal issues raised, i can only think there's a cognitive dissonance in anyone on this site blaming Hilary Clinton for staying married to an adulterer. It was not her sin. The same way our spouses' multifarious sins belong to them alone. That bit seems out of bounds, at least.
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and ahhhhhhhhhhh, we actually heard TRUMP talk about this. We heard what he said at his rallies. This is not assumption whatsoever... we saw and heard that man say all those horrible things ABOUT women, about other republicans, about other men... about blacks, Hispanics, musllims... WE HEARD HIM with our own two ears. NO SUPPOSITION there.
As for what Hilary did or didn't do. There are no tapes, no vidio's, even her EMAILS that were released by WikiLeaks and hacked by the Russians... there was NOTHING in them. Her emails were cleaner then yours and mine.
There were two things that did not help Hilary's cause one little bit... first, the FBI releasing that nonsense about her emails showing up on Weiner's computer and that they MIGHT reopen her investigation, 2) the notice that Obama Care costs would be increasing. I can't imagine that that could not have waited until after the elections, but AGAIN, if anythink, that should prove how transparent and honest the Democrats were trying to be.
Finding Hope, you were the angriest LBSer I ever dealt with. Now you are suggesting that we should be more careful with newbies... oh my goodness lady... talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are right, I wouldn't presume to know anything about your h, but I can make an educated guess, that he is probably still in crisis. Sorry! Just my opinion.
Thundarr, seriously, go back to your dating thread! However will you keep track of how many HITS you get on your valuable comments if you are not on your own thread. For the record, you are obviously very far off the radar screen, as most people could care less about whether a person is gay, black, brown, muslim, Chinese whatever... WE are all PEOPLE! With as much right to love who we love, as you do.
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Quote from: Thundarr on Today at 11:36:30 AM
As for other countries who don't like Trump, mind your own business and fix your own problems before bashing us, and if you can't then call on your government to refuse to accept any aid from the US until Trump is out of office. Go ahead, do it.
The world consists of many countries and the way many things are interrelated in this global world,it is impossible for any country to exist in a vacuum.
Many of the countries that are concerned about Trump as a leader are ranked much higher on certain variables that are studied that reflect standard of living such as health care and education, than the US does. So, they may not have as many "problems" as Thundaar is suggesting and certainly do not need the US's aid as they have many resources of their own.
What concerns me deeply is how so many of our Allies view the results of this election....seems that some countries who applaud Trump being the President elect, such as Russia, have not typically been our Allies in the past.
Think about it.
I am going to ask, Thundaar, what countries have you visited outside of the US?
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Newvies are adults, these threads are marked as off topic and have a clear title.
On the Bill issue, he is a serial cheater/philanderer. Not a MLCer or a man who happened to had an affair just once. He is also a man that used his power and position to have sex with an intern while in office. And not only while in office, inside the White House. Lets not compare what is not comparable. And I do think that staying married to a serial cheater and one who abused his power toward an intern reveals a person's character. It is one thing to remain married to a one time, maybe even two times adulterer, another to a man like Bill Clinton, or, for that matter, my FIL who was and still is at nearly 70 a philanderer.
We do not advice people to stay with a serial cheater. I doubt that there is anyone here standing for a serial cheater.
Hillary is not a victim. Of anything.
Elray, posting links to extreme right wing unreliable sites does not help. The Daily Mail has went so far that many big companies stop advertising there.
Border walls are a terrible idea. Austria is as bad and example and as fascist as Hungary, and a while ago it come close to elect a fascist government. Hitler was Austrian and Austrian never fully lost its sense of Österreich Uber Alles.
Sweden did not built a wall, so it is not the same thing. On previous threads on this matter I said Sweden had brought its borders back. It is not a wall. There is a bridge that separates Sweden from Denmark (the bridge of the TV series with the same name). Sweden simply has border controls on its side. Every EU country has the right to put its borders back on if deemed necessary. Border and wall are not the same thing. France borders are on since the attacks.
Migrants pouring into Norway from Russia? Unless they are Russian, I don't see how anyone could be wondering around and crossing Russia.
It is not like Russia is going to allow people to cross their country without stop them. Migrants tend to go West, not East. Or to try to pass to Sweden.
Wonder why a country built by emmigrants, America, is, all of a sudden, so upset with emmigrants. I doubt many of those who arrived there in the XIX, or even the XX, century were legal emmigrants. America was built by emmigrants.
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Does this ring a bell?
By no streach of the imagination is Trump an open mind man. We know which half is allucinating. Trump appointed a White Supremacist. It is self explanatory. The media exagerate, but Trump's choices and appointments are his and his alone. We can't spend the whole time saying that people need to have personal responsability, then excuse Trump from his responsability.
I truly do not understand how anyone can defend Trump and his choices. Those who voted for Trump voted for anger and hate, which is what Trump represents. How can people think fascism, racist, white supremacy, etc are rignt/good things? I have no idea. Or better, I do. All it takes is to look at 1933. They thought they were going to make Germany great again.
The world consists of many countries and the way many things are interrelated in this global world,it is impossible for any country to exist in a vacuum.
This. Same goes for the UK.
What concerns me deeply is how so many of our Allies view the results of this election....seems that some countries who applaud Trump being the President elect, such as Russia, have not typically been our Allies in the past.
It makes sense that the more autocratic/dictatorial countries will applaud Trump. Soviet Union had a pact with Nazi Germany before Hitler become too greedy and took something Stalind did not like. Birds of a feather fly together.
Russia is no longer, or hadn't be in a while, the Old Bear of Cold War. It wasn't America's best friend, but it had cordial relations with the US.
Thundarr, you got offended when Obama shinned the rainbow lights over the White House? Even Trump said gay marriage will remain. It has passed the Supreme Court, it is law. It is Roe vs Wade that may go back to the States.
No one knows if Russia hacked Hillary's emails. Here is a link that explains the Russian source and why it may not be beliavable http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-cyberwar-commentary-idUSKBN12X075 "Then there’s the role of Guccifer 2.0, the person or persons supplying WikiLeaks and other organizations with many of the pilfered emails. Is this a Russian agent? A free agent? A cybercriminal? A combination, or some other entity? No one knows."
One has to be very, very careful when it comes to digital things. It is very easy to make them seem what they aren't. And this applies to anyone or any country, US inclueded. I can make my IP to be Russian, American, Canadian, etc. It a very easy thing to do. High level hackers of any source can do whatever they want and make it seem it come from whomever they want.
Hillary deleted thousands of emails, so no one knows what was on those ones.
Still, Hillary has the most votes. In a country of one person, one vote, Hillary would be president.
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Good points Xyz and Anjae! Well explained too.
As I said before Anjae... we don't know what Hilary did or didn't do, there is no EVIDENCE! Evidence though, is much harder to destroy then we would think. The FBI have combed through the Clintons to an extent never before seen. THEY FOUND NOTHING! As much as people might like to think she is a crook, there simply is no evidence... Trump and the rest of you can say it as loud as you like, as often as you like... BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE... AND they sure have tried to find it.
America has a big problem on it's hands. The 26 percent of Trump voters seem to have decided that that gives them permission to be racist, bigoted, misogynist, xenophobes, sexist, a$$munches! They seem to think they can now run around treating women, non white men and women, handicapped, people of different faiths, as trash!
I guess that's just more lies being made up by the media! Silly me.
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Another fantastic post, osb. Herein lies the disconnect for many. In my opinion, Trump is representative of much of his voting base with an arrogance and self aggrandizement that only makes him (us) look stupid to the world. Not enough Americans know how far down the ratings the US is in terms of education, women's leadership, the environment, progressive policies, maternal mortality rates... People are living in a bubble of false superiority and importance that will be our undoing if people don't wake up and understand we are not some magnificent lone wolf in the world. We have much to offer and have been and done some extraordinary things, but we also have our faults, our weaknesses, our areas in which to grow and grow up. And we need our friends and allies around the world, as much as they need us. You are exactly right Stayed, and others, when you have expressed that it's the very things that Trump represents that many of our ally countries find repugnant and the things that he tends to find repugnant that other countries so admired about America and countries like Russia were so jealous of. That's why they want to see exactly what is happening and we are obliging.
Of course, no American wants our country to backslide, look the stooge, or fail miserably, but that is the direction Trump is taking us in. For all the rhetoric and posturing, time will tell it's own truth, but I will go on record saying that I believe, when all is said and done, it won't be a presidential term that honors what this country is about and the principles we were built on and espoused. We will not be in a better place economically, educationally, with healthcare, with global relationships, environmentally, in regards to human rights, peace, nuclear disarmament, government effectiveness, national security, gun violence, terrorism, race relations, civility and the general tenor or our nation's people toward one another. If those who believe differently are so confident, then stand in your confidence, but it won't sway a good portion of this country unless there is genuine sustainable proof to the contrary. Until then, we may have to just agree to disagree. Talk to me in four years about where we are. I will be happy to eat my words if I am wrong. Will you?
Phoenix
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The 26 percent of Trump voters seem to have decided that that gives them permission to be racist, bigoted, misogynist, xenophobes, sexist, a$$munches! They seem to think they can now run around treating women, non white men and women, handicapped, people of different faiths, as trash!
Wow. 100% of the 26% of Trump voters are all racist, bigoted, a$$munches? Do you have proof or are you just generalizing because of how they voted? Quite a broad brush to be painting people with.......
we don't know what Hilary did or didn't do, there is no EVIDENCE!
Maybe, maybe not, but people have watched her in action in the political arena and found her actions and attitude to be deplorable. In the same way that people have watched Trump and found HIS actions and attitude to be deplorable. One side is not going to convince the other so I would suggest that we put our differences aside and work together for the sake of everyone. Wailing and gnashing of teeth isn't going to solve anything and neither is tearing people down who don't believe like you do. Debate vigorously of course, but don't divide over this issue.
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Trying to lighten the conversation here a little bit
watch this video from Jimmy Kimmel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biwm9hG_-nc
Its a good laugh at least.
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Quote Stayed:
Thundarr, seriously, go back to your dating thread! However will you keep track of how many HITS you get on your valuable comments if you are not on your own thread. For the record, you are obviously very far off the radar screen, as most people could care less about whether a person is gay, black, brown, muslim, Chinese whatever... WE are all PEOPLE! With as much right to love who we love, as you do.
Attempting to bully your detractors and telling them to leave? Condescending, criticizing without merit, having an elitist attitude? Thank you, Stayed, for proving once again that you are the most Trump-like poster on the board. Kettle calling the pot black? Indeed. Did he steal your schtick and that's why you don't like him?
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Sorry Angae, I have great respect for your opinion, but that's all it is...your opinion. There is no proof that Bill had affairs. Only Monica Lewinski, which was not an affair, just a very, very stupid move on Bill's part. Very stupid.
It's their word against his. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything, which is scary. Just like there is no proof Trump's accusers are telling the truth either. Aren't people innocent until proven guilty? :-\
These allegations only came forward when Bill was being impeached by the Republican party, just as Trumps accusers only came forward when he was running for president. Where were they all when they claimed it happened? Why no law suits? Why no outrage then?
None of us knows the truth about either of them.
I'd rather go by the facts.
I've read too many stories about kids accusing their father of sexual abuse and completely ruining his life, to later find out the kids where mistaken or confused.
As far as Hillary goes, I'm sure her H suffered for what he did in the Oval office...big time, but she chose to forgive him and they ended up having a marriage that survived. They are still together and their family is still in tact. He is by her side and he is by hers.
Chelsey's parent's did not divorce and now have grandparents to her kids who are still together.
Their still a family unit. I applaud all of them. Of course that's just my opinion.
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It is true that so far the FBI found nothing on Clinton's server/emails. But it is also true she deleted thousands of emails and we do not know what other technical performances were done by her staff on her server, hardrives, etc. A good techie can do miracles and no one, not the FIB, not the Mossad, not the Russians would find a trace of.
The fact that thousands of emails were deleted raises suspicion. There may had been nothing in them, or there may had been. Lack of proof does not mean something did not happenened/a crime was not commited, merely that is not possible to prove it.
I am not saying there is something criminal on Clinton's deleted emails, just that we do not know one way or the other. But the suspicion is there. If in any election the suspicion was bad, on an election like this one it was poison.
The FBI director should not, in my opinion, have said anything about Clinton in regard to Weiner emails one week prior to the election unless the FBI had found proof of criminal doing. I would think the same if it was Trump. That was trying to influnce an election, something the FBF director should abstain from. In my opinion, he should had been fired.
Trying to lighten the conversation here a little bit
watch this video from Jimmy Kimmel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biwm9hG_-nc
Its a good laugh at least.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That was a laugh. But there will be no White House anymore. It will be a Gold House, a very golden one. ;D ;D ;D
On a serious tone, this is actually quite a sensible interview https://youtu.be/zlmuKtyhDKg Bernie Sanders on how Donald Trump won presidency .
Thunder, I am not the only one who mentioned Bill's affairs. Go back to the previous threads, more people mention them, including Americans.
What there is no proof of is of any of the allegations of sexual misconduct/rape. Like there isns't with Trump. Affairs and sexual miscounduct/rape are different things.
Yes, the marriage survived, but for me the only reason was that the two of them like power and money too much to divorce. There are many couples like them. I do not see love or happiness in their marriage, just interest. Divorced, Hilalry would not have a chance of running for president of the US.
The idea that staying married is always good or the best option, or done out of love is not correct. Sometimes it is better to divorce. Of course Bill and Hillary are free to decide what is best for them in any instance. Same for Donald and Melania.
Where were they all when they claimed it happened? Why no law suits? Why no outrage then?
I don't know why no outrage then. The why no law suits is easy, powerful man can arrange so that things do not to go to court. And this goes for Bill, Trump or any other man. I am not saying it is what happened, just that it is very easy to avoid a lawsuit when one is President and/or rich/powerful.
One cannot think it is all a lie if connected to Bill and all true if connected to Trump. That would be two measures. I find them both equally capable of cheating and even of going a little further. But I cannot say one or the other have sexually assaulted anyone because there is no proof.
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I really don't mean to pile on, but need to mention that to complain the problem with Obama's gay marriage legislation is just that it trampled states' rights is a bit problematic. Because that was the same excuse used in the 60's to protest desegregation. Sounds rather like dog whistle politics... "I'm not discriminating against gay (black) people, I just want my state to have the right (to so discriminate for me)". Not cool.
There are a number of LGBT posters on this board (as well as posters of every skin colour and ethnicity). It would be ludicrous to try to detect any difference between their commitment to their partners, and my commitment to mine (or you to yours). As ludicrous as to say a woman who chooses to cover her head has a lesser voice than one whose head is bare (taking an example from this election, not at random). Let's be a little more understanding of our collective humanity, and agree on one thing: there is no human being who is not deserving of equal rights.
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Thundarr-"On Obama, those of us who identify as being on the Christian Right have been not only marginalized over the past 8 years but completely been given the middle finger. This was never more apparent than when Obama had the audacity to shine the rainbow lights on the White House and other national monuments the day the activist SCOTUS decided to rewrite the Constitution rather than interpret it as they are supposed to. "
Wow Thundarr, I was never so proud of our President, or our country, when he lite the rainbow lights on the WH!!
How do you feel he rewrote the constitution by doing this???
What part of the Constitution? Please tell me.
That we are all equal in the eyes of the law? We, no matter our color or sexual orientation have the right to happiness? Was that just meant for white, straight people?
Just wow.
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I really don't mean to pile on, but need to mention that to complain the problem with Obama's gay marriage legislation is just that it trampled states' rights is a bit problematic. Because that was the same excuse used in the 60's to protest desegregation. Sounds rather like dog whistle politics... "I'm not discriminating against gay (black) people, I just want my state to have the right (to so discriminate for me)". Not cool.
There are a number of LGBT posters on this board (as well as posters of every skin colour and ethnicity). It would be ludicrous to try to detect any difference between their commitment to their partners, and my commitment to mine (or you to yours). As ludicrous as to say a woman who chooses to cover her head has a lesser voice than one whose head is bare (taking an example from this election, not at random). Let's be a little more understanding of our collective humanity, and agree on one thing: there is no human being who is not deserving of equal rights.
Beautiful!
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Thundarr-"On Obama, those of us who identify as being on the Christian Right have been not only marginalized over the past 8 years but completely been given the middle finger. This was never more apparent than when Obama had the audacity to shine the rainbow lights on the White House and other national monuments the day the activist SCOTUS decided to rewrite the Constitution rather than interpret it as they are supposed to. "
Wow Thundarr, I was never so proud of our President, or our country, when he lite the rainbow lights on the WH!!
How do you feel he rewrote the constitution by doing this???
What part of the Constitution? Please tell me.
That we are all equal in the eyes of the law? We, no matter our color or sexual orientation have the right to happiness? Was that just meant for white, straight people?
Just wow.
I agree about Osb posting... perfect! This one too Thunder... Wow! Beautiful! I agree completely, it was quite a moment.... proud to be human!
hugs
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Thundarr-"On Obama, those of us who identify as being on the Christian Right have been not only marginalized over the past 8 years but completely been given the middle finger. This was never more apparent than when Obama had the audacity to shine the rainbow lights on the White House and other national monuments the day the activist SCOTUS decided to rewrite the Constitution rather than interpret it as they are supposed to. "
Wow Thundarr, I was never so proud of our President, or our country, when he lite the rainbow lights on the WH!!
How do you feel he rewrote the constitution by doing this???
What part of the Constitution? Please tell me.
That we are all equal in the eyes of the law? We, no matter our color or sexual orientation have the right to happiness? Was that just meant for white, straight people?
Just wow.
I agree about Osb posting... perfect! This one too Thunder... Wow! Beautiful! I agree completely, it was quite a moment.... proud to be human!
hugs
Love this post too.
I believe that part of the reason why Hillary did not come out further ahead in votes is the plethora of polls that predicted that she had it by a slam dunk. There are some people who wanted her that stayed home complacent and thinking their vote wasn't necessary. Crossed my mind that NY was a slam dunk for her and that me voting or not really wouldn't matter but I would never stay home and not vote, regardless. It's just that I knew if I did she would still win it. That was true for my state but not true for most. So people who stayed home thinking that were very wrong.
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I agree Anjae. "The FBI director should not, in my opinion, have said anything about Clinton in regard to Weiner emails one week prior to the election unless the FBI had found proof of criminal doing. I would think the same if it was Trump. That was trying to influnce an election, something the FBF director should abstain from. In my opinion, he should had been fired."
Thank you. This I think this was the problem we all had on the left. I do believe he should be fired.
When the Commission asked the FBI director if he was a registered Republican he said he was a life long registered Republican but is no longer registered as such, it should have set off alarm bells.
It did appear he was trying to influence the election.
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Stayed,
Yes, I was very angry. I've grown since then but to imply that my husband is still in crisis because of how he voted to me was a low blow. I guess all the other Americans that voted for him are in crisis also. LOW BLOW. But I will rise above it as I have over other things in the last 5 years. I'm dissapointed that you have to attack my husband.
FH
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Finding hope,
Chin up, kiddo. As someone once said,
When they go low, we go high.
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Goodness, I was not attacking your husband, I was stating an opinion. The way that Trump lashed out at Hilary, with that "nasty woman" comment during the debate was very telling. It is not difficult for me to extrapolate that a normally kind and respectful man to suddenly become a TRUMP supporter, something drastic has occurred. Now considering all of us have been dealing with mid life crisis's, it seemed like a fairly logical explanation. Especially for a RECOVERED MLCer, as they are generally very remorseful and regretful of their terrible treatment of their spouse.
I was not saying your h is still in crisis, I was basically suggesting that maybe you consider that as a possibility. Even if he is mostly out, it takes them a long time to completely be done with it. Remaining hostile to women, showing anger and hostilities to other cultures, ethnicities, faiths, could be an indicator that your h is not quite recovered.
That's all I was saying. I was also suggesting that maybe the same was for RCR, Slow Fade and perhaps even OP is having a bit of a crisis. Many of the people that supported Trump have a genuine propensity to buying into his fear mongering. Most of them are not well educated and have very strong views about what a man is. Even their women, have a strong opinion about what women should be like, especially extremely religious folks as they believe that women should love first their God, then Husband, then children and so forth down the line.
Just my personal opinion.
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Washington Post:
Give Steve Bannon a chance. It’s not like he’s literally Joseph Goebbels.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2016/11/15/give-steve-bannon-a-chance-its-not-like-hes-literally-joseph-goebbels/?utm_term=.8a8d653eae30
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I was also suggesting that maybe the same was for RCR, Slow Fade and perhaps even OP is having a bit of a crisis.
Many of the people that supported Trump have a genuine propensity to buying into his fear mongering.
My suggestion is you look in the mirror.
I think you are doing exactly what you accuse me of.
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I was also suggesting that maybe the same was for RCR, Slow Fade and perhaps even OP is having a bit of a crisis.
Many of the people that supported Trump have a genuine propensity to buying into his fear mongering.
My suggestion is you look in the mirror.
I think you are doing exactly what you accuse me of.
This wins the internet today!
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Wow, that is such a typical MLC trick OP. Sorry, once upon a long time ago, I would have fallen for that old bull$hit twist the situation around to be somehow me. What did we call that... PROJECTING... no, no, wait, I think that was "gas lighting" yea, that's it.
Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of psychological abuse in which a victim is manipulated into doubting their own memory, perception, and sanity. Nope, fell for that with my husband, won't be going down that road again.
Sorry RCR but unlike you, I do think this is personal. I do think the person you vote for, does tell us about who a person really is. Perhaps something has gone wrong, perhaps a crisis is coming... I don't know. The OP I knew, I depended on, would NEVER have placed his confidence in such a person as Trump.
I've looked in the mirror and I would not be able to look at myself, if I did not say what I truly believe. Yes, I do believe that to be able to vote for such a person as Trump, one absolutely has to be a bigot in every way. Yes, Finding Hope, all 26% of them.
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Getting might heated, stayed.
Perhaps while in the bathroom you might want to consider a cold shower... remember that thread several years back?
Love yah, no matter how deplorable you find me.
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I just don't even really have words right now for how appalled I am at the opinionated, holier than thou attitudes I have read here. There is not a single thing anyone can say that will get through to closed minds, so I guess it is not worth the effort.
So my advice to my friends who have been accused of being "ignorant, racist, misogynist, homophobic, deplorable (and more)" is keep being you. I am pretty sure that all the people that know me or come in to contact with me every day in my human services job will disagree with your assessment/assassination of my character. Especially since my job deals with the most economically challenged citizens. My black friends, gay friends, and Muslim friends will prob likely never agree with them either. I gonna just keep on being the loving, kind person I am.
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I'm amazed at this thread. I'm going to stick my oar right in now.
The biggest single threat to the world from Trump comes from his attitude to climate change. I know that many Americans don't want to believe in this, but climate change has been more than proved by scientists (and it doesn't matter a jot if you find one or two who dispute it). The anti climate change lobby has been funded by oil companies and big business.
Trump has announced that he is planning to quit the Paris Climate Deal and he has hired a climate change denier to oversee the transition of the Environmental Protection Agency. Wise academic and global monitor, Chomsky, has declared this aspect of Trump the biggest single threat to humanity.
Everything else that Trump said was awful, racist, misogynistic, sexist, bigotted, ignorant, and not even consistent. As awful as that is, people believe that he will bring growth and prosperity. I understand why people can ignore this, to an extent, even if they don't agree. Obama, despite his charm and wit, failed to bring prosperity to the majority of people. Unemployment is still high, and median incomes have fallen significantly. Fear of extremists is also high. There is a sense that the left (comparatively, neither main party in the US is truly left) has failed people; Obamacare is flawed, violence is high, and inequalities remain. The GDP growth favoured the rich, not the average family. Actually, I doubt that Trump will change this; his stated policies (as few and as contradictory as they were) included lowering taxes for the rich, believing that this would "trickle down" to the poor (an outdated economic theory which has proven to have no substance). His other ideas, to halt imports, crack down in immigration and build a wall, will do nothing to increase wealth, and will increase costs while reducing income. In short, he's a brainless nutter. Even if Clinton were guilty of half they claimed, she at least had a coherent plan.
But NONE OF THIS WILL MATTER SO MUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE!
Whatever else you do, whether you hate Trump or love him, please pressure him to uphold the Paris agreements.
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I totally agree, Mermaid.
It is so apparent when you look at our weather here in Minnesota. We usually get our first hard freeze by Oct. 11th.
It's now Nov. 17th and the flowers are still blooming, no freeze. It was almost 60 degrees this whole week, normal temps for this time of year should be in the 30's.
I remember walking my kids out for Halloween with a foot of snow on the ground. We have not had one flake yet.
Our weather has definately changed over the years.
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Hello everyone,
I am reluctant to post, because I don’t participate on the forum anymore, but here I am anyway. It is disheartening to see how divided we are. A house divided cannot stand. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said this, referring to the USA. I apply this to all citizens of the world. We are all important, and we all need each other.
I have survived the chaos, and devastation that MLC brought into my life. The wounds that I’ve suffered have long since passed, but some scars remain. My heart goes out to all who are suffering in the midst of MLC destruction. I know how it feels to have someone tell you “its going to be ok”, when you are in such pain and confusion. Sometimes it feels hollow, and dismissive, and that those who say those words don’t understand what you are going through.
Many people now are hurt, and are offended at those words “it’s going to be ok”. I hope that we can all try to understand how this election is affecting people who either see something in a different way, or have experienced something that you haven’t, and try to understand the pain and fear they are experiencing.
I am trying to imagine being at the beginning of the MLC madness, or even in the middle, while also dealing with the upset in our country. Please remember that you are not alone, and that even those who feel the weakest survive this, and come out ahead. I will never forget what this did to me, it would be impossible, and I don’t want to forget the many lessons I learned. Still, it has to mean something valuable, that even the memories no longer produce tears. I am OK. For those who are feeling weakened, we/YOU are stronger than you think you are.
This election has upset me greatly, and I am struggling to come to terms with it all. I can only express my gratitude to Phoenix, OSB, Anjae, Thunder, and many others for so eloquently articulating the many issues we are concerned with. I was nodding along, sometimes with tears in my eyes.
I have, and am continuing to try to understand the Trump supporters’ point of view. I think more than anything else I have ever experienced, this is testing our abilities to listen to one another. I don’t believe the vast majority voted with malice or neglect, but it’s irresponsible to ignore that some people did. For me, and actually many others, I picked up on something that was impossible to ignore, regardless of any political agenda. His narcissistic traits are too frightening to ignore, or excuse away. I suffered too much at the hands of a narcissist to not be fully aware of what they are capable of.
Be strong everyone.
Hugs
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I have read many times were Liberals have been referred to as "tall children" due to their penchant for labeling, blaming and demonizing those who disagree with them. I will, however, refrain from labeling the people (and many friends here) and instead choose to label the behaviors of calling Conservatives/ Trump supporters "racist,""bigot,""homophobe" (a blatant and intentional misnomer, btw" and "xenophobes" as condescending, dismissive and yes above all childish. Choosing to name-call those who disagree with you ends any intellectual discourse and really is the grown-up equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "La-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la." It is the refuge of those who are unable to provide substance to their argument and are capable only of believing things are what they are because they want them to be that way. I handle such tactics the same way I handled the one or two times one of my kids threw a fit in a store after I explained why they couldn't get something they wanted. I chose to be the adult and used planned ignoring to instill in them the fact that sometimes you have to accept things even when you don't want them to be that way. The irony of these childish behaviors is that the belief "I'm right and the only way someone wouldn't agree with me is because of a character flaw or defect in them" and the even more ironic statement "I'm open-minded and anyone who doesn't see things the same way I do is close-minded." Childish, juvenile and unfit for intellectual discourse. Sound familiar?
They Gay Movement tends to believe they got what they wanted when the SCOTUS chose to circumvent the will of the states and vastly over-step their intended purpose in re-defining marriage. They did not. What they got was a by-product of a much larger, insidious and covert movement that needed the power taken away from the states in order to achieve their own ends. Millenials were easy fodder to rally and promote the message that anyone who opposed their decision was "homophobic" (again, a misnomer used to dismiss arguments against) and the SCOTUS followed the lead of Obama in dismantling one of the core pillars of our government under the Trojan Horse of "equality." What SCOTUS in fact did was to create a slippery slope in which any interested party could now wager a case for legalizing whatever it is they wanted and these parties were funded in whole or in part by many powerful billionaires who operate behind the curtain of money and power. First off, let me say that I have NO objection to gays or any prejudice toward homosexual relationships as I have family, friends, co-workers and clients who are gay. My religious beliefs state that sexual relations between two people of the same sex is a sin, but I also believe that extramarital sex between a male and female is an equal sin and as most of you know I have been guilty of that. Homosexuality IS NOT related to bestiality, incest, pedophilia or polygamy (well, a bit to polygamy I guess) but what the SCOTUS decision did was to create an environment in which people have already attempted to protest for the right to marry based on the language of "two willing adults." What we've seen in some European countries is that incestuous marriages between siblings and even between parents and children have been legalized due to re-defining marriage and in many other countries polygamy and even pedophilic and bestialic relationships are legal and condoned. If we are naïve enough to believe this couldn't happen here then we need look no further than the movements in those countries who said the same thing.....until it did. SCOTUS eliminated the rights of the states to define and limit what "marriage" is and in doing so laid the groundwork for many terrible things to happen with just the minor changing of a few words. I hope and pray the decision is overturned and given back tot the states, and I'm aware it may affect some very good people in negative ways but the cost of keeping things as they are is too great. We've all heard about the illicit behaviors of Epstein, David Geffen, Soros and other billionaires who are attempting to create a New World Order in which they are able to engage in whatever inhuman acts they do without fear of prosecution and this may one day be our reality.
As for the election discussion, that whole point is now moot. The Liberal agenda has been vanquished as the people have spoken and given the Republicans a mandate to undo most of the past 8 years and even some of the 16 before that. We've suffered as a country for long enough and the common man and woman has found their voice. To label Trump supporters as bigots, racists or sexist is incredibly short-sighted and ignores the fact that Trump received votes from ALL demographics. He received more Black, Muslim and Hispanic votes than Romney did and 42% of women voted for him. The Democratic party is in shambles and suffered a crushing defeat that is the result of the Old Guard refusing to listen to the people and continue to believe that things are actually working. Hillary was the hand-picked candidate from the very beginning because they thought she possessed the one trait that would automatically ensure another Democratic White House - having a V@g!n@. Unfortunately for them, Bernie actually took advantage of the Entitlement Generation in ways no one thought possible for an old man and brought attention to the fact that the Democratic party was way out of sync with how things really are. I have no doubt that in four years the Democratic party will try to parade Michelle Obama, who has the electable traits of being Black and having a V@g!n@, or Elizabeth Warren, who has the electable traits of having a V@g!n@ and successfully misleading the American people for the last 30 years into somehow believing she was Native American and they will trumpet them as 'the first woman president" and talk about how they are so "progressive." Funny thing is that that self-same ones who are now crying because we don't have a woman in the White House were the same ones who 8 years ago did everything the possibly could to keep Sarah Palin OUT of the White House. Feminism only works with Liberal women, I guess. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and that the Democratic party can rebuild as I think having two viable candidates would be amazing. I would have honestly considered voting for Biden over Trump, and the retired Colonel who ran against Hillary and Bernie was a strong favorite of mine even though I realized he didn't have a chance against the Feminist and Millenial machines. Hopefully the Old Guard of Reid, Pelosi and others will fade away with the term limits Trump is proposing (thank God, and I also apply this to McConnell as well btw) and a comfortable middle can be established wherein the Democratic party returns to the values of the past that produced some excellent candidates. Not holding my breath, though.
Peace to you all.
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Hello everyone,
I am reluctant to post, because I don’t participate on the forum anymore, but here I am anyway. It is disheartening to see how divided we are. A house divided cannot stand. I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said this, referring to the USA. I apply this to all citizens of the world. We are all important, and we all need each other.
I have survived the chaos, and devastation that MLC brought into my life. The wounds that I’ve suffered have long since passed, but some scars remain. My heart goes out to all who are suffering in the midst of MLC destruction. I know how it feels to have someone tell you “its going to be ok”, when you are in such pain and confusion. Sometimes it feels hollow, and dismissive, and that those who say those words don’t understand what you are going through.
Many people now are hurt, and are offended at those words “it’s going to be ok”. I hope that we can all try to understand how this election is affecting people who either see something in a different way, or have experienced something that you haven’t, and try to understand the pain and fear they are experiencing.
I am trying to imagine being at the beginning of the MLC madness, or even in the middle, while also dealing with the upset in our country. Please remember that you are not alone, and that even those who feel the weakest survive this, and come out ahead. I will never forget what this did to me, it would be impossible, and I don’t want to forget the many lessons I learned. Still, it has to mean something valuable, that even the memories no longer produce tears. I am OK. For those who are feeling weakened, we/YOU are stronger than you think you are.
This election has upset me greatly, and I am struggling to come to terms with it all. I can only express my gratitude to Phoenix, OSB, Anjae, Thunder, and many others for so eloquently articulating the many issues we are concerned with. I was nodding along, sometimes with tears in my eyes.
I have, and am continuing to try to understand the Trump supporters’ point of view. I think more than anything else I have ever experienced, this is testing our abilities to listen to one another. I don’t believe the vast majority voted with malice or neglect, but it’s irresponsible to ignore that some people did. For me, and actually many others, I picked up on something that was impossible to ignore, regardless of any political agenda. His narcissistic traits are too frightening to ignore, or excuse away. I suffered too much at the hands of a narcissist to not be fully aware of what they are capable of.
Be strong everyone.
Hugs
Well said, GBM, but I also want to add that every president we've had has been flawed in some ways. Also, having a trained eye, I would also argue that every president in recent memory has also been a narcissist. I almost think one has to be in order to aspire to taking on such a responsibility and to weather the storm in the face of half the country not liking or agreeing with you. Trump isn't a trained politician and over the 30 years he was a public figure he didn't make much of an effort to hide this fact about himself as an aspiring politician would have, but I also have faith that the system of checks and balances in the country will limit any damage. I also think the experience of the campaign as well as his focus on what went wrong the past 8 years has changed him as a person. If you look at his track record of having the most female executives of any corporation the size of his I would say that sexism hasn't been a word used to describe him much over the years. I would also like to point out something that no one else has for some reason and that is the fact that he entrusted his campaign to a woman, thereby making her the FIRST woman to ever run a successful presidential campaign. Take that for what you will but she certainly doesn't seem like any glass ceiling has been put in place by her boss as I hear she has also been offered a cabinet position.
I'm so happy to read that you're trying to understand and I think we need more of this. We not only should start coming together as a country and wishing him success, we HAVE TO. Wishing he fails is treason. I don't like Obama's policies or tactics but I always hoped he would turn things around for the better. Unfortunately, his pettiness and narrow-mindedness proved to be his downfall as catering to the special interest groups only served to hurt the entire country and ultimately his own party. Hopefully Trump learns form his mistakes as well as those of Bush and Bill Clinton along with all those who came before him. We've given the guy the keys to the airplane, now let's pray he does an awesome job of flying it or we will all end up as statistics.
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This election has upset me greatly, and I am struggling to come to terms with it all. I can only express my gratitude to Phoenix, OSB, Anjae, Thunder, and many others for so eloquently articulating the many issues we are concerned with.
Me too. Thank you. And Mermaid for mentioning the elephant in the room: global warming.
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This election has upset me greatly, and I am struggling to come to terms with it all. I can only express my gratitude to Phoenix, OSB, Anjae, Thunder, and many others for so eloquently articulating the many issues we are concerned with.
Me too. Thank you. And Mermaid for mentioning the elephant in the room: global warming.
Thank you everyone, and you too Thundarr. I don't need to agree with your politics to understand some of the issues. Yup, name calling is not useful, and both sides in the last election resorted to this.
The thing is, presidents should be chosen because of what they promise/ represent. Gender, skin colour and religion should not be an issue. However, in a country which is often divided on these very issues, it has become one.
But I will say this again and again. The major issue here which will affect the world, now and future, is GLOBAL WARMING! Please petition your representatives to get this addressed, now matter what else you believe
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Appropriate poem for this election, this thread, this forum, and life in general.
Kindness
Naomi Shihab Nye, 1952
Before you know what kindness really is
you must lose things,
feel the future dissolve in a moment
like salt in a weakened broth.
What you held in your hand,
what you counted and carefully saved,
all this must go so you know
how desolate the landscape can be
between the regions of kindness.
How you ride and ride
thinking the bus will never stop,
the passengers eating maize and chicken
will stare out the window forever.
Before you learn the tender gravity of kindness
you must travel where the Indian in a white poncho
lies dead by the side of the road.
You must see how this could be you,
how he too was someone
who journeyed through the night with plans
and the simple breath that kept him alive.
Before you know kindness as the deepest thing inside,
you must know sorrow as the other deepest thing.
You must wake up with sorrow.
You must speak to it till your voice
catches the thread of all sorrows
and you see the size of the cloth.
Then it is only kindness that makes sense anymore,
only kindness that ties your shoes
and sends you out into the day to gaze at bread,
only kindness that raises its head
from the crowd of the world to say
It is I you have been looking for,
and then goes with you everywhere
like a shadow or a friend.
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Thank you for your eloquence, GBM. It is clear that we will remain a country divided unless there is a coming together on the issues of human rights (which include LGBTQ rights), the environment/global warming, etc., because an immovable force has been activated. Organizations like the Anti-Defemation League, the ACLU, Environmental Organizations and others have seen a ground swell like never before with millions of dollars and record breaking memberships since the election. Actions like that will ultimately be the country's mandate--driven by the people. 25% of eligible voters (and a far lower percentage if all Americans are included) is not a mandate. So time will tell, but my confidence is with the majority of people in this country who will find a way through, not because of people like Trump, but in spite of them.
Good to see you on the forum, GBM. I hope your healing is continuing. And thank you for the good thoughts to be strong. I can promise you I am in this for the duration and am very busy (in RL) working to defend and support what I believe are the best aspects of this country and its people.
Beautiful Velika.
Phoenix
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I'm trying to understand this election. A major loss to all has been the ability of the 4th estate to provide the checks and balances of democracy. Truth has been replaced by 'truthiness'; facts are invented. Trump has been allowed to accuse and blame with nothing but the weakest of challenges. If immigration is curtailed the jobs will return? From where? Are we talking about making steel or cleaning rooms?* The press has 'balanced coverage' as in sexual assault vs. use of an email server--how is this equally important? Why are we discussing the existence of global warming when 99%+ of scientists regard it as a given? It's absurd. I have to say the decline of any real reporting predates Trump by decades--maybe he is the result. I believe a huge percentage of Americans get their news from Fox--an organization that should have no credibility.
*Note: Canada has a long history of importing talent rather than training our tradesmen and professionals so no, I don't mean immigrants only work in housekeeping jobs--here an immigrant from India is as likely to be an engineer as a cleaner].
I posted before I read the last two. That poem deserves a careful read.
Phoenix, what I will do is, think globally and act locally. Emphasis on the act.
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Thundarr,
I didn't vote for Trump but, he's going to be my President. I don't agree with much of what he's said. But, I do hope that he keeps his promises to make this country better. If he fails, we all fail. The one thing that I do like about Trump is that he's not in anyone's pocket. What has made me sad is what has happened on this site.
I've been a Hero's family member for 5 years. I came here to find comfort and guidance. Although there were plenty of times that I felt that I wasn't doing it "right" and I was taking too long to understand the process. It was only after that I decided to take what worked for me and leave the rest. At times I felt it was "do it my way because that's the way it's suppose to be done".
It seems like if you go against what others think, it's you that has the problem. Tearing Trump apart, is that what's going to make this country better. I watch the news, see all the protests. Do they really think it's going to change a thing? Don't get that mentality.
It is very disheartening to hear the people that I admired and trusted to get me through MLC bash others for their opinions about the election. The election is over, so do we try to move on and do the best we can, come together and unite as a country or do we do the same crap we've been doing, keep this country divided because that doesn't seem to be working.
FH
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I have to say the decline of any real reporting predates Trump by decades--maybe he is the result.
I believe a huge percentage of Americans get their news from Fox--an organization that should have no credibility.
I totally agree with this.
Our journalism is horrible and I say that after watching both sides of this.
Main stream Media does NOT have fair and unbiased reporting.
This was a huge revelation to me in this election.
FOX is not better or worse that CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, Washington Post or many other publications.
It all really boils down to what LIE are you going to believe.
I can tell you that I do not believe I am part of the deplorables that HRC and
others on this board have lumped me into.
However I can tell you I am tired of being lied to.
So maybe because of my experience here for the last few years
I decided to change things up.
DO I think Trump is a saint, NO.
Maybe just more of the same.
I do think that we need to have a drastic change in the way things are reported.
Politics needs to be out of journalism part of the NEWS.
Trump - zeroed in on many of these feelings of the American population.
Drain the Swamp being one of them.
I do think that a smaller Federal government might be more efficient,
and bring about small amounts of change.
So did anyone see HRC's picture of her walking her dog in the woods after the election and coming upon a supporter for a selfie, taken by WJC?
Turns out that was staged too.
And you want to know why I dislike her and think she lies?
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Goodness, I was not attacking your husband, I was stating an opinion.
Sorry Stayed, this is a cop out at best. Kind of like when someone says "I'm sorry you took what I said the wrong way." It was most definitely an attack and not worth of a mentor on HS.
Leave our husbands out of this Stayed. Its not your place and it speaks to your character.
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Trump - zeroed in on many of these feelings of the American population.
Drain the Swamp being one of them.
I do think that a smaller Federal government might be more efficient,
and bring about small amounts of change.
So did anyone see HRC's picture of her walking her dog in the woods after the election and coming upon a supporter for a selfie, taken by WJC?
Turns out that was staged too.
And you want to know why I dislike her and think she lies?
Well said OP.
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FH,I don't think the protesters think they can change anything, their just frustrated with our system and just want their voices heard, as long as they keep it peaceful, I think it's a good thing. Thank God we live in a country where people can protest without getting killed or imprisoned for it.
I think when most votes goes to one person and the election goes for the other person, it makes no sense and people are enraged.
How is that "the will of the people?"
Well that won't change anytime soon. :-\
Thundarr how is giving the states the power back to be as racist or as bigoted as they want a good thing for America?
I personally think it sets us back years. Gay marriage is here to stay. Whether you or anyone else likes it or not. In the eyes of the law we are all equal, not just some of us.
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Thundarr how is giving the states the power back to be as racist or as bigoted as they want a good thing for America?
Its not about power to "be as racist or as bigoted as they want". Its about the Constitution. I don't believe that the States would automatically defer to racism or bigotry. The Federal government is overreaching into our personal lives on every level and in every way. We the People of THESE UNITED STATES......not A Few of the People of the Federal Government.
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Happened to stumble across an interview w/ Bill DeBlasio, Mayor of NYC the other night and it comforted me.
He said he met w/ Trump to clarify a few things. First of all, 900 members of the NYC police force are Muslim. So when I also keep hearing this bigoted statement of a Muslim ban or registration I wonder, will the cops also be policed the same way? Will they really be deporting them for their religion?
DeBlasio went on to say that much of the bigotry of what Trump campaigned on is handled by state government, not Federal government and what can happen is that there be a Federal recommendation, yet it would be up to individual states for the final decision.
I found this comforting that this country might not turn into the type of Government I feared it would when I saw that Trump won. I don't live in a state where blatant bigotry of gender, religion, race etc. exists as much.
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I'm afraid it is difficult to have empathy for people who support Trump, but who insist it had nothing to do with racism, sexism or xenophobia. Oh no, that was just talk. Nobody believes he'll do those things. It's about the economy, really. The people who say this are generally people who would not be impacted by the "xenophobia talk" if it proved true. People who have experienced racism know better; the injury of being called a racist is nowhere near as bad as the injury of being subject to racism.
I will, however, refrain from labeling the people (and many friends here) and instead choose to label the behaviors of calling Conservatives/ Trump supporters "racist," "bigot," "homophobe" (a blatant and intentional misnomer, btw) and "xenophobes" as condescending, dismissive and yes above all childish. Choosing to name-call those who disagree with you ends any intellectual discourse and really is the grown-up equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, "La-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la."
Thundarr, I respect you as a caring human being. When I was a child having the crap beaten out of me for being a Paki, I so wanted caring human beings around me. When I was afraid to leave my relatives' house (anyone remember the Dot Buster gangs in New Jersey, mid 80's? I stopped wearing a religious mark on my forehead around then), it would've been nice to have a caring human being in government say, out loud, that this was wrong. Now, this is the Great America you're voting to return to. No, I'm not name-calling you. But when your president-elect's team discusses making a Muslim registry (and uses Japanese internment as a nice precedent - I know folks who were forcibly interned, it made no sense then and it makes no sense now), it's bigotry and no question about it. When Trump supporters say, "it's ok if he says that, don't call me a bigot", I have little empathy for them.
In the end, of course you'll have the government you deserve, as a country. A small government. So small it can get into everyone's reproductive organs, no doubt. He'll bring back all the jobs he himself sent overseas. Yup. But do not be surprised at the reactions of your allies.
Modified to add: Velika, what a poem!! Tears in my eyes. Thank you.
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Stayed, I find your statement
"Many of the people that supported Trump have a genuine propensity to buying into his fear mongering. Most of them are not well educated and have very strong views about what a man is."
to be condescending, and very elitist in attitude. I make no such judgments about those who voted for Hillary. I am quite sure they came from many walks of life and levels of education and made their decision based on their assessment of the candidates.
However, apparently those of us ("most" of us - and I am one - who voted for Trump are "not well educated". This, of course, assumes that you know what my level of education is and what the level of education is for "most" of those who voted for him.
And that we have a "genuine propensity to buying into his fear mongering". We must be a very weak minded bunch in your "opinion". Insulting.
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I feel people should go over the US Constitution again, including the Bill of Rights if you feel discrimination regardless of race, creed, disability, sex (gender) etc is ok.
I am not an attorney yet do recall it's not ok at all and violates the US Constitution. Perhaps it's just the work place where you can sue for discrimination yet all of what I have seen from Trump breaks me out in a rash it's so wrong, illegal and violates the Constitution.
We now are about to have a President who violated our Civil Rights to 'win' an election. We as humans have lost.
We most likely will lose allies and respect from other countries and no longer be regarded as the Super Power we once were. Think globally, act locally. I still fear for our future.
Civil Rights
Definition: Guarantees and protections designed to prevent discrimination on the
basis of race, color, creed, religion, natl. origin, age and gender from both private
AND public, govt. institutions
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Well, it seems the consensus here is that Stayed is very self-righteous, condescending and elitist. Not a judgment on you as a person, Stayed, nor will I attribute this to your being in crisis but I would definitely suggest some mirror work on if this really is who you are and if not why you come off that way to so many. It would definitely be helpful in communicating empathy if your goal truly is to help others here.
As far as Trump's attitudes toward other races and religions, I would definitely recommend doing some more research into what he TRULY espouses rather than what the media tells you he is all about. Remember, this was a media with an end-goal of getting Hillary in the White House so take that for what you will. I have a link to a speech he gave that was greatly edited by the media and used as propaganda to say he wanted to ban all Muslims when in fact he was talking about one particular radical family. I agree that Fox is no better than the others and I have a friend who has been around the world who gets all his info from Al-Jazeera, scary as that is, due to the fact they aren't biased.
Global Warming? Is it a thing? I'm no expert but I do want to point out that we did have an Ice Age at one time and I doubt any cars. factories or cow farts were responsible for that melting. The temperature of the planet is something that can be measured (some reports say it's actually cooling....) but whether or not we have a significant impact is up for debate. Al Gore said there would be no ice caps in ten years and that was sixteen years ago and we still have ice caps. Gore also lives in one of the least eco-friendly homes in Tennessee (look it up) so does he truly believe what he preaches or is he just a hypocrite? All too often these buzz words are used for political or financial gain, just like gun control statistics, so take it all with a grain of salt and just live your life. Lord knows we've given up enough of it to MLC and don't need the media causing us to waste any more of it.
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Is Trump really a racist?? (aside from being investigated by Dept of Justice for refusing to rent to black people? aside from inviting a professed white supremacist to be his chief of staff?)
About immigrants: "When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people."
About whether Gonzalo Curiel, the American-born federal judge hearing a class action lawsuit against Trump University, could fairly hear the case because of his Mexican heritage: “He’s a Mexican. We’re building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings — rulings that people can’t even believe.” (btw, in the words of Speaker Paul Ryan (R), "Claiming a person can’t do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment.")
About Muslims: "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on."
About Ghazala Khan, Gold Star mother: "She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say. You tell me."
Thundarr, this ain't the media talking; I watched him say each one of these things. Don't you go calling anyone condescending and self-righteous, before thinking a bit about how defending this man sounds. Mote in thy brother's eye. Beam in thine own.
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Global Warming? Is it a thing? I'm no expert but I do want to point out that we did have an Ice Age at one time and I doubt any cars. factories or cow farts were responsible for that melting.
Global Warming is a thing. Scientists have learnt about the extent of global warming because of the ice age, not despite it. It's by looking at how naturally occurring CO2 historically changed the planet that they have an idea on how fast it is changing now. Natural sources of CO2 were from volcanoes and the combustion of organic matter.
The questions now are not whether global warming is happening, but only how fast.
The temperature of the planet is something that can be measured (some reports say it's actually cooling....) but whether or not we have a significant impact is up for debate.
No, the academic debate has now ended. It's certain that there is global warming. The question is, can America get educated enough to catch up? Global warming means more extreme weather, more hurricanes, tornados, snow storms, as well as more heat.
Al Gore said there would be no ice caps in ten years and that was sixteen years ago and we still have ice caps. Gore also lives in one of the least eco-friendly homes in Tennessee (look it up) so does he truly believe what he preaches or is he just a hypocrite?
If you get your information from the internet, from newspapers and even from Al Gore, you will never get insight on this. The only way is through peer reviewed papers and academic discussions.
All too often these buzz words are used for political or financial gain, just like gun control statistics,
Follow the money. Who gains from holding back changes on global warming? Oil companies, businesses, etc. Don't tell me scientists do! Do you know what a scientist earns doing research? Much less than they could working for business! It's now true that there are new companies earning from green changes, but that's a good thing (different ways of doing business in a green way), although these are outnumbered by traditional companies.
so take it all with a grain of salt and just live your life.
That's the point. We won't have lives to live (or your descendents won't) if we don't realise what's happening and make changes.
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I feel like we are doomed. Just may go start watching reality tv, which I dislike. It's brain numbing in my eye. Just what I need.
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Thurdarr,
RE. The Global warming: does it occur to you that 99% of scientific community now agreed unanimously that it is a fact. You might not know your geography, political economy, basic history, but you want to eat, drink, have heated and air conditioned house, and drive a car, right? Our livelihoods are endangered because of climate change, especially those who live in near coastal areas. It is not a prediction it is a reality. Just look at the frequesncies of abnormal and potent natural disasters. You would not argue with the thermometer, would you? So the thermometers are saying that this has been the third warmest year ever. Yoh know what are the catastrophic consequences if our planet's temperatures rising above 2 degrees celcius, this is a temperature unit, used in Metric system, i.e. in the parts of the world, which you by your own admittance have no idea about.
If you answer is no to any of these questions, I strongly incourage you to start reading. Because, I cannot imagine that in this day and age, a father of school age children, would say something to the effect that I do not care about the rest of the world, I do not know who their leaders are, and if they take a liberty and critisize the intellectual giant, Trump, that I just elected to be the President of the US, then we should figuratively speaking show them our middle finger. You know there is a certain age where ignorance is a bliss and there is an age where it is shame, but it is never too late to learn. Diversity is beautiful, it is enreaching, educating, and creating wealth.
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FOX is not better or worse that CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times, Washington Post or many other publications.
This is like saying the National Enquirer is the same as the LA Times. No. It's not.
My [educated] opinions on the media are beside the point, Trump is on record, see osb's post.
I'm afraid it is difficult to have empathy for people who support Trump, but who insist it had nothing to do with racism, sexism or xenophobia. Oh no, that was just talk. Nobody believes he'll do those things. It's about the economy, really.
Yes.
From here I see 2 types of Trump supporters: those who believe what he says and approve and those who don't believe what he says and approve. Deplorables on the one hand and on the other, people who have absolutely no idea what his beliefs are and voted for him anyway.
Follow the money. Who gains from holding back changes on global warming? Oil companies, businesses, etc. Don't tell me scientists do! Do you know what a scientist earns doing research? Much less than they could working for business!
Thank you Mermaid.
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Is Trump really a racist??....
Thundarr, this ain't the media talking; I watched him say each one of these things. Don't you go calling anyone condescending and self-righteous, before thinking a bit about how defending this man sounds. Mote in thy brother's eye. Beam in thine own.
Thank you osb, the world watched him saying these things. All the way across the world, where we watched the election process with detached interest, we heard Trump. Not an invention, not a mistake, not words taken out of context.
But as horrified as we are by the changes he is planning, and as much as some of us disagree with his economic vision, it's the changes to the climate change agenda that I most fear, because they affect all of us.
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Trump is supposedly filling his cabinet with 'loyalists' no matter how horrifying they are. Who took Trump as more than a joke 2 years ago?
Glad he dropped Christie and his group of convicted criminals.
Guliani,Romney and the woman governor from South Carolina look like candidates he's considering.
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Is Trump really a racist??....
Thundarr, this ain't the media talking; I watched him say each one of these things. Don't you go calling anyone condescending and self-righteous, before thinking a bit about how defending this man sounds. Mote in thy brother's eye. Beam in thine own.
Thank you osb, the world watched him saying these things. All the way across the world, where we watched the election process with detached interest, we heard Trump. Not an invention, not a mistake, not words taken out of context.
But as horrified as we are by the changes he is planning, and as much as some of us disagree with his economic vision, it's the changes to the climate change agenda that I most fear, because they affect all of us.
I heard it too. I watched every single debate. I watched many of his Rallies with mouth ajar. I watched Hilary Rallies. I watch in horror. STILL, I had faith in the American people.
I too have been following the Global Climate change discussions. I don't need to listen to these discussions I am SEEING the changes. More hurricanes and tornados. More severe storms and flooding. More earthquakes. The debates are over, all of us are watching it happen, right before our eyes.
Great posts folks.
hugs Stayed
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Is Trump really a racist??....
Thundarr, this ain't the media talking; I watched him say each one of these things. Don't you go calling anyone condescending and self-righteous, before thinking a bit about how defending this man sounds. Mote in thy brother's eye. Beam in thine own.
Thank you osb, the world watched him saying these things. All the way across the world, where we watched the election process with detached interest, we heard Trump. Not an invention, not a mistake, not words taken out of context.
But as horrified as we are by the changes he is planning, and as much as some of us disagree with his economic vision, it's the changes to the climate change agenda that I most fear, because they affect all of us.
Once again, these discussions about whether or not he is fit to be president are moot because he WILL BE the president regardless. Now, as most of you that are friends with me on FB saw I called all of my Trump supporting friends to action by making sure that none of the fears our family members and friends have actually come to pass. We must ensure that no one is marginalized, mistreated, harassed or discriminated against and only in doing so do we show that we really didn't vote for him for the reasons we are accused of.
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Erm..... (Polite cough). Why is there an off-topic thread about the US election?
It seems WAY off topic, and it's deeply saddening to see so many at each others throats over matters that they have almost no chance of influencing.
Fellow world citizens - Americans - please don't disappear up your own backsides* over this situation. The rest of the world does need you. You are the No.1 Superpower and what we wish for now is that you rise above the divisions and find a bigger cause that unites you all.
As Eckhart Tolle** says, or was it Buddha: Don't be so wedded to your opinions. (He might have added: Get to work on the solutions, instead.)
I'm going to just say this and then run out of the playground, as I'm a coward at heart, but surely to goodness, discussing anything from very entrenched, emotionally charged positions gets no one anywhere. It's how wars start, and God knows we probably have more of those coming.
LOVE ANYWAY??
*This is an example of me losing control and getting emotional... My apologies. I leave it in because... well, it shows how we all get too vehement and it is NO help whatsoever.
**Sorry to go on about Eckhart. But when you do some exploring, and find out how bad 'ego' is for world politics and the earth itself, you do see the merits of Eastern philosophy in a VERY complex world.
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It seems WAY off topic, and it's deeply saddening to see so many at each others throats over matters that they have almost no chance of influencing.
I find it encouraging that we are communicating with Americans--they obviously need our help. Also that we are talking about something other than $%%^^#ing mlcers.
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Lordy! OK. I haven't been on here for a while, and clearly the site has moved on. Well, yes, why not? :)
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I agree, every year we seem to be seeing more and more records being set with our weather.
Really, does it matter that the ice caps are still there after 16 years??? Have you seen how much they have melted?? They look nothing like they did 16 years ago.
I think people think Global Warming is only hotter temperatures. It is Climate Changes that are happening all over the world and sea levels rising.
We really need to wake up and start taking this serious folks.
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We must ensure that no one is marginalized, mistreated, harassed or discriminated against
Thank you Thundarr. Great positive response, and one we are collectively involved in.
Add to that... make sure Trump doesn't derail climate change, and we're good to go.
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OK since we have moved on to climate change.
Can I ask what the world is doing about it?
Mermaid - are you making changes to your life to support this?
I bought a Hybrid car - my second one, Not sure whether that makes it more eco friendly or not.
As I have heard that even hybrid cars are not really eco friendly.
My sister has solar panels in one of her homes.
I have also heard some horror stories about solar panels from some of my friends here in my area.
What else can the average person do?
Discuss what other things we can do!
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Thanks OP and Mermaid! FINALLY! SOLUTIONS WE CAN BUILD ON! #ClimateChange
What you can do:
First realize there is a problem.
A guide to reducing your greenhouse gas emissions
Drive less. Walk, bus, ride a bike. If you are buying a car, buy a very efficient vehicle.
Don't fly.
Get an energy audit for your home to find weaknesses in your insulation.
Retrofit your home with efficient insulation, doors and windows.
Close curtains at night in winter, upgrade to insulating curtains or shades for your windows.
Plant a deciduous tree to shade west-facing windows in summer.
Install a solar hot-water heater.
Lower your thermostat in winter, raise it in summer.
Use energy efficient lighting, such as compact fluorescent or LED lights.
Install a water-saving showerhead
Clean or change the air-filter of your furnace regularly.
Find out if you can purchase electricity directly from renewable sources and pay a premium.
Use cold (or warm) water to do your laundry instead of hot.
Hang your clothes to dry whenever possible.
Turn off the lights when you leave a room.
Turn off all electronic equipment when not in use. Buy equipment that doesn't use power when it is turned off.
Eat locally produced, and when possible organic, food.
Eat vegetarian meals several times a week.
Plant a vegetable garden. Compost your food scraps for fertilizer.
Recycle!
If you are building a home, build ultra-efficient.
Live in a smaller house, or live with more people.
Install solar panels on your roof
Vote for political parties committed to real change, who have an economic plan for encouraging conservation and renewables.
Consider your impact on the earth in all your decision making.
There are many ways that you can make a difference, but the gist is this: change your consuming habits to use less, consider energy efficiency in all your choices, change your voting priorities, buy organic food , eat less meat, plant a garden, and walk more. If you take the time in your life to do these things, you may even find you have a better quality of life.
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What else can the average person do?
Discuss what other things we can do!
Mostly vegan/vegetarian local and seasonal diet.
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Grasshoppers here in Kansas today. Mowed my (still green) grass. Wasn't uncommon to have snow by now prior!
Just installed a more energy efficient furnace (okay, old furnace made me do it, but still...). Getting the house prepped for winter by making sure everything is properly insulated. I keep all of my appliances at the most energy efficient settings (one of the perks of living alone is no one to argue about how hot the shower should be). No vehicle. Grow food when possible in the summertime or buy from local independent gardners or local farmers via neighborhood grocer. Going to a more seasonal diet, and cutting back on meats (was vegetarian prior, and I'm strongly considering going back to that for both health and environmental reasons).
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Thank you, Thundarr, that was a good positive attitude.
Can I ask what the world is doing about it?
Parts of the world are doing a lot, some a bit, others not much. Some countries have stricter environmental rules and approaches than others.
Personally speaking, I don't have a car (or own a driving license), I walk or take public transportation. The household has a car, but it is rarely used.
In the house, we use water sensibly, same for electicity and have efficient appliances. We recicle (plastic, metal, paper, cardbioard, glass, batteries). In Portugal there is a recycling program and there are for those. People separate the materials home, they carry them to the bins. Clothes are handed down, and the ones no one wants or do not fit anyone are either given to charity or we put them on bins designed to collected those used goods. Same with shoes and bags.
We take used/no longer funcioning electric/electronic material to a shop that colects and recycle it. We buy very few things. And when it comes to clothes, shows and bags, we are using second hand shops more and more. We take out of date medicines to the pharmacy to be recycled and good ones that we no longer need to a parish near by, and they distribute them by those who need them.
Not sure if some of this things are possible in rural areas or in other countires.
A thing to have in mind is that a good portion of the world does not consume like Americans do, nor has houses as big as American ones. And in Portugal houses with AC are rare. Big offices/companies have AC, private recidences not really.
Climate Change is real, Global Warming is part of it. There would be Climate Change without humans, Earth climate changes on its own, but humans are speeding up the changes at an uprecedent level. We are causing too much devastation and damage to the planet. We are also 7 billion. 7 billion need a lot of resources. It is possible to have a more sensible use of resources, but it requires that countries are on the same page.
We should be glad the ice caps are still there after 16 years.
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My carbon footprint is not very big like most regular people who don't live in giant houses or ride around in limos.
When I see the wealthy entertainers and politicians who spout off about global warming giving up their 10,000 square foot homes and vacation pads and limos and riding in Air Force One to vacation on Martha's Vineyard, then I will take them seriously. Yeah. That'll happen.
By recent calculations, China produces 10 Million tons of greenhouse gasses per year, the U.S. about half, then the EU and India after that. I speculate that if we reduced our emissions to zero (which is impossible because we would have to prevent cows from farting and we would have to stop breathing outward) it wouldn't change the trajectory of China and developing countries any time soon.
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One fourth of China's carbon footprint is created in manufacturing products consumed abroad. Per capita China consumes less than the U.S.
China is actually leading world in producing solar, wind, and smart grid technology. Its renewable energy sector is growing faster than its nuclear and fossil fuel capacity. China invests 9 percent of its GDP in water and transit infrastructure whereas in the U.S. it is less than 3 percent.
Many parts of the world have highly connected and extensive public transit systems that simply do not exist in the U.S.
Wealthy celebrities and public figures should not be our role models in this regard. We should look to the average citizen of other nations and see where we can improve.
We can reduce methane from cows and other animals if we adopt a healthier plant based diet and avoid factory farmed meat. Greenhouse gases from livestock production account for almost 15 percent of global total, more than direct emissions from transit.
So actually there is a lot we can do in the U.S. as a nation and even as individuals in our daily, collective choices.
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OK since we have moved on to climate change.
Can I ask what the world is doing about it?
Mermaid - are you making changes to your life to support this?
What else can the average person do?
Discuss what other things we can do!
Great! Positive turn!
1. A car that uses less petrol, and lower CO2 emissions.
2. Walk or use public transport whenever possible
3. Avoid buying food wrapped in plastic/packaging if possible
4. Recycling everything possible
5. Energy efficient light bulbs
6. Support Greenpeace
7. Make energy efficient choices for domestic appliances
8. Promote smart lighting and energy efficient solutions in commerce and industry
9. Turn lights off when not in a room
10. Be cautious with use of water in domestic use
11. Buy local products
12. Avoid eating red meat
13. I rarely heat a room, even in winter. We have a small heater under the table.
14. I avoid using a clothes drier, dish washer or other appliances unless essential
15. We've planted trees on our farm
There's more I'd like to do. We can never do too much.
Portugal is way ahead on renewable energy, most of Portuguese electricity comes from renewable sources.
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Great posts,
Actually my MLC H is a specialist in climate risk reduction and disasters, specializing also in water resources management. He would have provided a very good insight. 😀
Thundarr
Have you heard about raging fires in the South and how the existing drought is impeding their containment? These are direct impact of raising temperatures.
Velika, China also is a signatory to Paris Agreement and is not threatenning to withdraw, nothwitstanding Trump's election. I also completely concur concerning public transit systems. After living in Europe for a while, one should trully appreeciate the public transport systems in many European countries.
It also requires that our governments support and incourage innovation, research and development.
Simple things like keeping you tires inflated saves gas/milage.
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Thanks for the list Elegance. I came away feeling really good about ourselves. We meet most of those standards. We are building a new home in the spring and plan to employ even more energy efficiency to our day to day live. We are both avid gardeners, always have been, don't expect that to change. We have trees, 5 and a half acres of them, hehehe... but we continue to plant more. Thinking of planting an orchard once the house is built. Also, will get bee hives but will have to have somebody else manage and maybe even own them, as I am rather allergic... still what they do for the environment the risk is worth it.
I love my country home, and sadly we do have to use our cars but we do have fairly good energy efficient ones. Will probably go electric in one, at least once we get settled. Our lake is pristine. No fungus's, no fertilizers being pumped into them, heck not even cow poop. We do use a small motor but quite sparingly. Tend to kayak and canoe more then motor boat. We do have a couple of bad habits though, both of us love snowmobiling and ATVing... sorry!
Great information.
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Neutral article and terrific read for both sides of political spectrum:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
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Working at the public Library, there have been quite a number of people of all races, asking about or checking out books on becoming an American Citizen. My heart broke for them because if I was born a citizen and have fear of the upcoming Trump administration, I can just imagine what type of turmoil they are experiencing!
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Neutral article and terrific read for both sides of political spectrum:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
Interesting article, Thundarr.
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The thing is, it takes governments to really effect the changes we need. And we, in the '1st world' still consume 10 times the resources of people in the 3rd world.
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Neutral article and terrific read for both sides of political spectrum:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
Interesting read. I don't always agree. But as the article below also suggests, perhaps the issue is that we each define these words differently? You're right that labeling creates backlash. Perhaps we all could work toward shared definitions of the words that hurt.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/the_people_who_look_at_trump_and_don_t_see_a_racist.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/the_people_who_look_at_trump_and_don_t_see_a_racist.html)
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I had a hard time trying to get through that article. Just reminded me of all the cruel things Trump has already said. Does he not think he is offending people with his words? Is it just naivety? or did he really think all Latinos eat at Taco Bell (which they don't of course) etc.?
What about mocking the disabled reporter? Does he really feel that's ok?
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The North Pole Is Basically Hot Right Now
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/the-north-pole-is-basically-hot-right-now.html?mid=facebook_nymag
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Elagance,
That was a fantastic article, and you surely can point out that Trump is a weirdo.
The "disabled reporter" story is yet another perfect example in line with that article which perfectly exemplifies how Trump is attacked for "making fun of a reporter's handicap" when in actuality, he was just being mean and weird -- the authors point is that when people educated themselves and saw thru such nonsense, they stopped believing anything the media said about Donald.
The facts in this case are as follows:
The reporter in question does not have palsy or any form of uncontrolled muscle spasming. Did you know that? He has Arthrogryposis which causes restricted movement in the joints but does not cause spasms or uncontrolled moving of the limbs like cerebral palsy does. Basically, his hand is locked in a curled position. It would be perfectly reasonable not to know this -- the reporter never gave a video interview, and the media only ever showed STILL shots of him. In a still shot, his handicap looks like palsy. Isn't it odd that given the level of play this got, we never saw live video -- almost seems contrived, doesn't it?
If you recall this reporter was the one from NY Times who was publicly debating with Trump that people were seen in Jersey celebrated 911 -- then Trump found reporting from this very reporter talking about the nonexistent celebration. Do you remember this feud was the background of his comments?
He was making fun of a flustered, back pedaling person. Its mean. Its feels like a blood fued, but it wasn't mocking the reporter's disability, which Trump has said over and over again. The media claimed the handicap issue to redirect from an argument that Trump was clobbering them with.
But the real proof is that Trump has done the same thing towards many people who he's managed to get flustered, who aren't handicapped. You can go find video of him doing the same routine for other people who aren't disabled -- Ted Cruz, for example:
https://youtu.be/M4604reEqk0
He did a very similiar routine regarding a General in the very same speech -- hardly anybody knows that.
https://youtu.be/LQQq50JWsmY
Given how our media covered these incidence, and the huge ad buy Hillary did on it, I can't blame you if you didn't know, but if you do know this, and continue to make the same claim, it would be very disingenuous of you.
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Being a mean weirdo as an explanation doesn't make a bit of difference and doesn't put Trump in any better light. Nor do multiple examples of similar juvenile, unprofessional and unpresidential responses/behaviors on his part. And if Trump wanted to begin to allay concerns, especially on the issue of race relations, he would not appoint Jeff Sessions at any point, let alone on the heels of Bannon. Sessions didn't make it through the Senate confirmation for federal judge due to racist comments. Yet Trump names him Attorney General. ::) Trump doesn't need help explaining his behavior. His actions are loud and clear. He might also want to stop talking to world leaders on his unsecure cell phone and before he's received intelligence briefs, if he's oh so concerned about National Security. Double standards at their best.
Phoenix
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Elray, we were discussing Climate Change and what we could do about it. I happened to come across that article to prove Global Warming/ Climate change is REAL. Does anyone have anymore solutions? People have been listing some great ideas.
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This is a good approach, in general, Elegance. We can list the various issues we are concerned about and post ideas about getting involved, advocating, becoming more informed, etc.
Global Warming/Climate Change
Racial Equality and Relations
Women's Rights
LGBTQ Rights
Targeting Immigrants and Muslims
Education
The Economy
Etc.
Phoenix
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If the essence of the argument against trump was the he was a weirdo, and he's nasty, I think he might not have gotten elected.
Regarding climate change, I believe in global climate change, but I'm not sure everyone is experiencing or predicting warming (hence the name change from global warming to global climate change).
I live in a big house, pay a ridiculous amount in energy bills to run my pool and heat/cool my home, and run a fleet of vehicles, with 4, soon to be 5 drivers in my household.
I'm somewhat skeptical of the role of CO2; and I'm looking for more evidence of anthropological based theories in general.
Therefore, I unfortunately, I don't think I can contribute to the conversation on global warming.
I do believe in recycling, conservation in general, preserving species, bio diversity, and natural habitats, reduced usage of non biodegradable plastics, leaving the world better than it was when I arrived, and I greatly enjoy the outdoors. As such, I have no axe to grind against true believers in global warming, or whatever they call it today, as many of their initiatives align with my priorities, except for the ones designed to re-allocate global wealth.
As a technologist, I believe we will be able to terraform the planet before many of these issues become a true threat to survivability of the species.
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Elray, I just read snopes.com which stated many things. Including the reporter knowing Trump for years and many things you said here. Except the fact this was something that he normally did with everyone. I didn't know Trump does that often. If it's true, then pardon me. I'm not really a Trump fan to know that lol
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I prefer climate change to global warming. It is a more encompassing term.
Elegance, I think we can debate several issues. Thundar and osb posted articles about the election. It makes sense people wanting to comment on those.
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Anjae, we weren't debating. We were thinking of solutions about what we could to to save the planet earth. People came up with great ideas, do you have any?
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I do like Phoenix's list -
Global Warming/Climate Change
Racial Equality and Relations
Women's Rights
LGBTQ Rights
Targeting Immigrants and Muslims
Education
The Economy
Increase the attention paid to any one of these issues, and you save planet earth.
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Elegance, see my post on page 9 of this thread, Reply #82.
I also like Phoenix list.
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For those not interested, don't read it. But for those who are, this is a powerful post by Rabbi Shai Held a teacher from mechon Hadar in NYC. JTS ordained, but hadar is non denominational--conservadox. He is highly regarded and if there is a struggle ahead he may be the Abraham Joshua Heschel of our time.
I too will not be deterred and I know that goes for others here.
Phoenix
This is from his facebook feed:
Some thoughts, five days later:
1. Many people have asked me what I think they/we should be doing at this moment. I would start with this: be very clear about what your red lines are, and about what you are willing to do to uphold them. And make those commitments public, so that you will be pressured to live up to them.
An example: If Mr. Trump actually pursues children of illegal immigrants with the intention of deporting them (which he has promised to do), I will readily go to jail to fight him, and I hope many students, friends, and colleagues will join me.
If Mr. Trump creates a registry of Muslims, I will register as one, and I hope you will join me.
2. My watchword for right now is vigilance. We need to watch what the president-elect does, and know that we may be called to place out bodies on the line to defend civil and human rights. If your instinctive reply is that you are not an activist, well the time may have come to become one.
But I personally do not think that massive protests right now are the best idea: first, people of good will will exhaust themselves before the most important battles have even begun; and second, they run the risk of alienating people who may otherwise become allies.
3. I am growing increasingly weary of the "we lost, let's move on" posts that I have seen. I used to be very skeptical of the language of white privilege, but this seems like an amazing expression of it. Muslims, who have been threatened with a registry, cannot move on; gays and lesbians who fear having their long-delayed and hard-won rights stripped away from them, cannot move on; people of color, who are understandably terrified of the racial animus Trump has directed at them, cannot move on. (If you don't know about Trump and the Central Park 5, consider learning about it.) The list goes on and on; we are not talking about a baseball team here, we are talking about people's safety and well-being.
4. Posts that say "your side lost; deal with it" willfully ignore what many of Trump's most impassioned critics have been saying all along: This is not about Democrat v. Republican. It's about decency v. indecency. I am grateful to the Republican thinkers and leaders who saw that and have not backed down. (God bless you, David Frum.)
5. Journalists: please please please do your jobs right now. No more false equivalencies, no cheap normalization. Document everything he does. The creep of authoritarianism is a real danger here, and we need you.
Everyone else: if you can afford it, now is the time to pay subscription fees to newspapers that do serious investigative journalism. We need large and robust newsrooms at precisely the time when they are shrinking.
It is an extremely bad sign that a mere few days after he won the presidency of the United States of America, Donald Trump is still firing off hostile tweets at the New York Times.
6. To people who inhabit the same socioeconomic and cultural universe as I do, yet who voted for Trump: many of you have put forward a steady stream of indignant posts about how you are not racist, bigoted, homophobic, or misogynistic. That may well be true, but the fact is that in this election you decided that racism, bigotry, homophobia, and misogyny were not significant enough issues to cause you to vote for someone else. At the end of the day, although our thoughts and feelings do matter, we will be judged on our actions, and whether or not this was your direct goal, the fact is that you did help place a dangerously bigoted man in the most powerful position in the world.
If you want to take responsibility for the bigotry your candidate has unleashed, you could demand of him that he condemn all assaults on minorities without equivocation. It seems to me your indignation would be better directed there.
And yes, of course violent attacks on Trump supporters are totally unacceptable and must stop.
7. There is so much pain in this country, and as I have been saying for many, many months, we have to find a way to separate out economic anxiety from racial hatred. The first can be dealt with; the second must be condemned and rooted out. American jobs have been lost (though as Thomas Friedman notes, more to microchips than to Mexicans) and we have immense work to do with and for those feeling left behind by a globalizing economy. But as far as race goes: A purely white America is gone, and it is never coming back. Diversity is our reality, and if we rise to the occasion, it can be our strength.
8. I never thought I'd see the day when Jews on the left would need to remind Jews on the right that antisemitism is a real and present danger. In the United States, more acts of violence are committed each year by White Supremacists than by Islamist radicals. Please stare the threat in the face: The president-elect has winked at white nationalists, re-tweeted them, and had one of them run his campaign. There is no reason at all to think that he has your back. (And please stop with the nonsense about a Jewish daughter and grandchildren; that was not enough to motivate Trump before, so there's no reason to assume that it will motivate him now.)
9. Torah tells us to love our neighbors, and the vulnerable immigrants among us (that's what the word ger means in biblical Hebrew). There is a mandate to love, but there is no mandate to be loved. Sometimes we have to speak the truth even if it means losing friends and being attacked. I don't enjoy being assailed (to say the least), but I will not be deterred. Nor, I trust, will thousands and thousands of my fellow Americans.
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Neutral article and terrific read for both sides of political spectrum:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
Interesting article, Thundarr.
After some research, I must conclude that the article, although intriguing, is false in many of its ascertains. The Demographic of Trump voters is totally spurious. The real demographic was that Trump supporters were more likely to be older, white, male, wealthier, less educated, than Clinton supporters, although this is a tendency and not an absolute.
You can find the academic results here:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.03787v1.pdf (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.03787v1.pdf)
This is not surprising, and I don't post this as an insult to Trump supporters (there is always a mix in both groups of supporters), but Just to contest the misinformation in the article, which has been typical of recent campaigns in the US, UK and elsewhere.
I don't trust the regular press for my information anymore, not even my old trusted sources.
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Thank you Phoenix. I am in complete agreement with the author of the post.
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Yes thanks Phoenix.
I prefer climate change to global warming. It is a more encompassing term.
Climate change is a term that GW Bush used--it softens the facts. The atmosphere is heating up. Kind of like the oil sands in Alberta which were always called tar sands; 'oil' sounds less heavy and dirty.
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Let us not forget that the atmosphere is heating up because of man's super consumption of the earth's resources. We are all responsible and we can all make a difference. I have always thought that both climate change and global warming do little to spell out this fact. This is not nature that is doing this. This is man.
Amal Clooney: Donald Trump's policies 'violate human rights laws'
"Amal Clooney has reportedly said some of the US president Donald Trump’s most controversial comments and policy proposals are a violation of international human rights law.
The barrister was speaking at the Texas Women’s conference when she gave her thoughts on Mr Trump’s shock election win.
“[His comments] that there should be a religious test imposed on entering the U.S. or the fact that there should be state-sponsored torture or families of suspected terrorists should all be killed – all of those things are violations of international human rights law and the values that underlie that.
“I think there’s some concern from abroad as to are these things actually going to happen or is the U.S. going to lose some of the moral standing that it has internationally,” she said according to The Hollywood Reporter.
Clooney specialises in human rights law and is currently representing a group of Yazidi women including Nobel peace prize nominee Nadia Murad who were held as sex slaves by Isis.
Amal Clooney asks women to fight for rights of Yazidi community
She welcomed Mr Trump’s commitment to tackling Isis and said she hopes for the best from his presidency.
“The president-elect has said that fighting Isis is actually a priority so it may be that there can be progress and obviously everyone has to respect the outcome of the democratic process her and we have to hope for the best.”
Clooney and her husband George were vocal Hillary Clinton supporters during the election and both publicly denounced Mr Trump’s policy pledges.
Clooney used her keynote speech at the conference to call on women to join the fight for women’s rights in countries where they are most under threat. In September, she told the UN she was “ashamed” to stand before them over their inaction to persecute Isis for their crimes against the Yazidi community.
“The worst thing that we can do as women is not stand up for each other. And this is something that we can practice every day no matter where we are or what we do. Because if we are united, there is no limit to what we can do,” she said."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/amal-clooney-donald-trump-muslim-register-religious-test-torture-policies-human-rights-laws-a7424546.html
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I love being around those as passionate as I. Thank you all for being you.
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Same back at you, Elegance. :)
Phoenix
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Local news Trump report. Last night in evening rush hour, Massive Ego,I mean Trump decided to take his 'motorcade' from NYC to Jersey and the entire Lincoln Tunnel was shut down and closed due to all the extra traffic.
Why not travel at times when there is less traffic and less of an inconvenience to the residents?
Please move to DC quickly. Traffic here is bad enough.
- Local NYC/Northern NJ Residents
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Let us not forget that the atmosphere is heating up because of man's super consumption of the earth's resources. We are all responsible and we can all make a difference. I have always thought that both climate change and global warming do little to spell out this fact. This is not nature that is doing this. This is man.
You're right Kikki, this isn't a naturally occurring event as these terms suggest.
Overpopulation, conspicuous consumption...I'm having flashbacks.
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Velika,
My comment was: When I see the wealthy entertainers and politicians who spout off about global warming giving up their 10,000 square foot homes and vacation pads and limos and riding in Air Force One to vacation on Martha's Vineyard, then I will take them seriously. Yeah. That'll happen.
Your response was:Wealthy celebrities and public figures should not be our role models in this regard. We should look to the average citizen of other nations and see where we can improve.
To clarify - since my comment was misconstrued: I was not advocating using wealthy entertainers and politicians as role models. I was pointing out their hypocrisy.
My comment was: By recent calculations, China produces 10 Million tons of greenhouse gasses per year, the U.S. about half, then the EU and India after that.
Your response was: One fourth of China's carbon footprint is created in manufacturing products consumed abroad. Per capita China consumes less than the U.S.
So because they are producing greenhouse gasses for products consumed abroad it doesn't count. How about the EU and India or other developing countries.
My comment was: I speculate that if we reduced our emissions to zero (which is impossible because we would have to prevent cows from farting and we would have to stop breathing outward) it wouldn't change the trajectory of China and developing countries any time soon.
You response was: We can reduce methane from cows and other animals if we adopt a healthier plant based diet and avoid factory farmed meat.
Seriously? I was attempting some humor and you missed the part where I stated that no matter, it will not halt the trajectory of China or developing countries because they are going to do whatever it takes. However, if you personally can convince them to adopt your strategies - kudos.
I have no intention of reducing my carbon footprint any further than it is already. However, if it makes you feel good then you go ahead and do whatever you believe is necessary. All I can say is that I think you will be disappointed when you find out that all of your sacrifices haven't make one bit of difference in the larger world.
This is my last comment on this thread. It is pointless and fruitless when there is no further exploration of ideas or opinions, when beliefs are fixed in stone and exploration stops and when dissenting opinions are not considered. The earth is flat and off with your head if you believe any differently.
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I have no intention of reducing my carbon footprint any further than it is already. However, if it makes you feel good then you go ahead and do whatever you believe is necessary. All I can say is that I think you will be disappointed when you find out that all of your sacrifices haven't make one bit of difference in the larger world.
It's up to each of us to do what we can, and to be as informed as possible.
Up to a point, you may be right Sally. We may do everything possible as individuals, but it might not make a difference. The big polluters are industry, and there aren't enough controls or incentives to change this. That's why national measure and international agreements are so important. That's also why it's so worrying having Trump, a climate change denier, at the head of one of the biggest economies in the world.
Renewable energy is vital, as is putting a price on carbon emissions, and targets for reducing energy use. Hopefully soon we'll have more non polluting cars and planes.
As for celebs, they influence what people think. That's why they matter.
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China is actually moving toward cleaner energy out of necessity; I think many Americans lack an idea of what other nations really are like in the 21st century and therefore miss out on appreciating what we can learn from them.
If people ate a more plant-based diet and purchased fewer consumer goods, as well as other measures, then we would also -- collectively -- reduce the global carbon footprint. This can be ground-up solution that ends up affecting policy.
Celebrities would not be so important to us culturally if we were more connected in our daily lives. American life is isolating in a way that makes many people more vulnerable to materialism and disconnection -- and results in our identifying more with people in the media than we do with our own neighbors.
I am not sure these simple statements = off with your head. They are topics I think are on many people's minds these days.
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Are there any serious calls to repeal the Electoral College in congress?
Hillary Clinton 1.7 million votes ahead of Donald Trump
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/us-election-hillary-clinton-popular-vote-donald-trump-electoral-college-a7429291.html
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Yes, they will try but they've tried before...and nothing changed. You need to get both parties on board.
Good luck with that. ::)
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Thanks Thunder. The Electoral College will forever boggle my mind.
For anyone out there, I can't blame you for the news you choose to receive. Most people just take what the news caster says as fact, when it's far from truth.
I suggest when you take in news, take it with a grain of salt and if you are interested in fact checking what you heard go to snopes.com and type it in there to find the truth.
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Thanks Thunder. The Electoral College will forever boggle my mind.
For anyone out there, I can't blame you for the news you choose to receive. Most people just take what the news caster says as fact, when it's far from truth.
I suggest when you take in news, take it with a grain of salt and if you are interested in fact checking what you heard go to snopes.com and type it in there to find the truth.
It is wasn't for the Electoral College, California, New York and the other more populated States would decide. It would completely give the smaller States no vote. I don't think that is what the founding Fathers of this nation wanted. We have the Senate, where each State has two (2) votes and the House - where the number of votes is determined by population. The US was based upon a balance of power. While you or I may not agree with the results, abolishing the Electoral College isn't the answer.
I don't believe that ANY news organization provides the "truth." They all are swayed is one direction or the other.
Reading both sides....gives the best opportunity to actually get the "truth" - but, then again it is up to the reader to decide.
JMHO
L
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You know Limitless, I always thought why not give each state the same number of Electoral votes? (I technically know why) But it seems the big states always have the power to swing elections anyway..so why even have the EC? If you can get the 5 big ones, you win.
The candidates wouldn't just favor campaigning in the big states. They'd have to work just as hard for South Dakota as they do Florida.
The Electoral College was created back in 1787...229 years ago. :o (I don't even think CA. was a state back then).
Anyway, I don't know the answer, but it's sad that a person can win with more votes but the other person wins the election.
Something needs to change, but no one knows how to go about it.
Possibly a clause stating the if one wins the popular vote and they other wins the EC votes, the Electorates can choice which candidate to vote for. It's so very rare it happens.
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Why go by state? why not each vote have equal weight? Normally I don't vote for President because I find it so unfair. I voted this year for Bernie, knowing my vote wouldn't really count.
Snopes.com has no political agenda. Only gives facts, which I prefer.
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El, I think, eventually, that will happen. But not in the near future.
It should be one person, one vote. sigh
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Lol Elegance. Followed your advise and googleled "is snopes biased"--found a boat load of results profiling the snopes editor team and guess what, well I'll let you find out...let''s just say there's deep irony in your advise.
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Oh Elroy, of course I checked before I suggested it. I've used it for a long time mostly not for any political question and found them to be accurate. I did plug in what you asked me to and of course you are going to have doubters.
Could it be there are many experiencing cognitive dissonance; can't accept facts?
It's a fact checking site. Truth is Truth. Facts are facts. :)
Facts with evidence tend not to be biased lol
Urban Legends: Did Snopes Get 'Snoped'?
urbanlegends.about.com › … › Internet / Web Hoaxes
Jun 24, 2016 · CLAIM: TruthorFiction.com is less biased more reliable than Snopes. Ironically, TruthorFiction.com has refuted these attacks against Snopes.com and, ...
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/internet/a/snopes_exposed.htm
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Someone posted this recently on Facebook. I had no idea that half the U.S.'s population lived in these counties.
https://www.facebook.com/colddeadhands/photos/a.307409332641284.68774.307188559330028/1171609109554631/?type=3&theater
Politics ruined my marriage so I have a hate relationship with politics right now. So I try not to get involved with political debates but I did find that interesting about the electoral college.
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Why we chose delegates is for THEM to cast the majority vote for State. So we actually lose our choice at the state level. How do we know if this Delegate cast the correct vote? I don't trust anyone to vote for me. I'm a grown up and would love to vote for myself :)
I feel who we truly elected for President is the popular vote. Yet the system doesn't see things that way so I rarely vote for President.
It really wouldn't take that much time to wait for all votes to be counted to find out who actually really won. Especially since the new President won't be in office until January.
If I had the time, I'd start a campaign to irradiate the Electoral College for good. Our individual votes matter!
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Well without the electoral college this election would be a mess.
I have heard from your website that 3 million votes would be contested
http://www.snopes.com/three-million-votes-in-presidential-election-cast-by-illegal-aliens/
Michigan is still not decided and absentee ballots are still being counted.
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The electoral college thing is quite interesting. In Canada we don't vote separately for our Prime Minister. We have political parties. They choose the person they want as the leader of their party. WE the people vote, but we ONLY vote for one person in our own constituency/county. End of the day, the PARTY with the most delegates becomes the majority, the leader of that party becomes our Prime Minister. Now, this is where we have issues, because some provinces are much more populated then others. Like, the United States, the constitution stipulates that each province should have an equal voice, so like you we occasionally end up with the party we did not select, because the number of delegates for each province carries more weight then the popular vote.
The difference though, this situation is easily corrected by a "vote of non confidence" in the legislature, which has happened on more then one occasion. Which is pretty good, because we don't get STUCK with a MISTAKE for very long. The Canadian people have proven themselves to be pretty ruthless and even though our elections have often been selected by low voter turn out, once the vote of no confidence happened and we returned to the POLLS, we always have had massive turn outs and restored a much more stable government.
The thing I find confusing about the "electoral vote", why bother to have a separate vote for the President if it is not done by A POPULAR VOTE? I understand when it comes to your congress and senators but you vote for your president completely SEPARATELY, he/she does not WORK for a single party, he/she works for the people. It seems odd that every single vote then should be counted for the PERSONAL SELECTION of your President. I saw this with Gore as well. Considering how ignorant Republicans usually are, to their Democratic equals, the Democrats have always very GRACIOUSLY conceded to the "electoral" decision. I have never seen it the other way around, where the Republicans won the popular vote but not the Electoral, so whether they would be as gracious, I have no idea. Judging by what I am seeing of them, I have my doubts.
It is odd, but it was the Republicans that were complaining about the Electoral Vote. Of course, as soon as it benefits them, they no longer criticize the process. I wish though that you would admit that this is true, because this is the second time the Electoral Vote has taken the Presidency away from the Democrats, in my lifetime, yet it is the Republicans that have constantly complained about it. Along with the continued talk about rigging, vote fraud and all kinds of stuff. Now, no complaints.
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Interesting. Seems most of the OW I know love Trump. Says a lot about their character.
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One thing that I am finding interesting is that Trump is changing his ideas and views from what he presented during his campaign for president. So I question what the value of the previous 18 months were? If what the candidates were presenting in those painful months, are not being followed through..then what was the point?
As well, for those who "complain" about how the media misrepresented him, there is a great deal of coverage on him now that seems pretty fair in what they are reporting. If the media really is as "crooked" as was portrayed, then why are they being so open in their reporting now?
Just my thoughts. I pray that the divisions that exist will somehow be healed and that the leaders that are chosen by Trump will bring their intelligence and wisdom to the table, that my worst nightmares will never be seen in the light of day.
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X,
It's almost like he held a private position different from his public position. Where did I last here that?
I guess you could say Trump has consistently been inconsistent. His supporters didn't seem to mind during the election, but it makes him very difficult to predict. Compromise is a crucial part of deal making. Maybe he is at heart, a deal maker and a pragmatist, rather than an idealogue. If so the next 4 years are just as likely to make republicans heads explode as democrats. An equal opportunity head exploder could provide a lot of entertainment and explose a lot of politicians on both sides as frauds.
I do NOT like the precedent of the winner putting the loser in jail -- it tends to be very unhealthy to a functional democracy, and extremely divisive, so at least in one case, I'm glad to see his position changing. Like you, I also view this change and some of his others as healthy steps that might heal some of the divisions he created, and I too pray that he will have a strong team around him to cross check some of his strange meanderings. Apparently however, we're going to have a president who randomly tweets bizzaro ideas; I guess that will take some getting used to...maybe the office will wear him out and he'll start sleeping thru the night.
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I agree X, I hope too that my worst fears are not going to be realized. That being said, he has EXPOSED himself already as a lying, manipulative arse! This is a person who will say whatever he has to, to get what he wants. That is a bit of a concern.
I am thinking, his "fans" are going to be quite disappointed especially about not arresting Hilary and putting her on trial. It was the one promise that I heard many say, they would be very disappointed if he did not carry through with. The other thing that is STILL concerning me, is the way that SOME people have translated his success, as permission to target "non white men and women" as their God given right. I have even heard white men say as they carry out their act of cruelty as "we won, we can Trump you now"!
I will be very interested in seeing how this all unfolds.
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The electoral college thing is quite interesting. In Canada we don't vote separately for our Prime Minister. We have political parties. They choose the person they want as the leader of their party. WE the people vote, but we ONLY vote for one person in our own constituency/county. End of the day, the PARTY with the most delegates becomes the majority, the leader of that party becomes our Prime Minister. Now, this is where we have issues, because some provinces are much more populated then others. Like, the United States, the constitution stipulates that each province should have an equal voice, so like you we occasionally end up with the party we did not select, because the number of delegates for each province carries more weight then the popular vote.
I haven't participated in the election discussion, but have been following along.
I did want to expand / clarify on what you've brought up here, Stayed. Canadian provinces don't have an equal voice in the sense that each province has the same voice. Rather, each province has a number of seats in Parliament to ensure proportional representation based on population. So, populace provinces like Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia have more seats than provinces like Manitoba and Nova Scotia. And there is a representation formula to help ensure sparsely populated regions of the country have at least some voice. This helps address some of the issues found in a country with a significant rural/urban divide.
For those less familiar, in Canada, we have electoral districts called ridings. Riding boundaries are based on population. By law in Canada, electoral ridings must be reviewed every 10 years, and redistributed if there have been changes in population. The last time this was done was in 2014.
For the electoral representation geeks, everything you need to know about the Canadian system can be found here. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=res&dir=cir/red/form&document=index&lang=e
We do have a 'first past the post' system, which means that the popular vote doesn't necessarily win the election. But, we also have a multi-party system. Votes are distributed across a number of parties, so mathematically, one can win the election without winning the overall popular vote.
A party does select their leader, but in order for the leader to sit in Parliament, they must successfully run and win the vote in their home riding. The party with the highest number of elected delegates does form government, but not necessarily a majority government.
The difference though, this situation is easily corrected by a "vote of non confidence" in the legislature, which has happened on more then one occasion. Which is pretty good, because we don't get STUCK with a MISTAKE for very long. The Canadian people have proven themselves to be pretty ruthless and even though our elections have often been selected by low voter turn out, once the vote of no confidence happened and we returned to the POLLS, we always have had massive turn outs and restored a much more stable government.
Just to clarify, a 'motion of non-confidence' is a motion of Members of Parliament. Essentially, it happens if there are not enough parliamentary votes to pass legislation put forward by the governing party. For example, if there is a minority government (which can happen due to the multi-party system), the governing party needs to gain support for legislation in order to have bills pass. If they don't, a motion of non-confidence can be made, and an election is called.
The last time this happened, in 2011, the Conservative party led a minority government. A motion of non-confidence was held, the election was called, and the Conservatives were returned to power with a majority, while the opposition Liberal party that called for the motion lost most of the seats it held.
A motion of non-confidence has been called six times in Canadian history, including once with Pierre Elliot Trudeau, the father of our current Prime Minister. The governments that have experienced non-confidence motions have tended to be either longer term governments, or minority governments.
Canada's voter turnout has ranged in the high to low 60% range since the 90's, with the lowest rate at just under 59% in 2008. The 2015 election had the highest voter turnout in 20 years, at 68.5%
In terms of the US election, one thing that everyone can probably agree on is that the controversies aren't likely to end any time soon!
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Stayed, Onward, 1Trouble, Anjae and everyone else from countries outside of the US, I'd like reading what you all say about the elections in your county. Goodness knows not only am I tired of the US Presidential elections, I'm completely embarrassed. Would love to 'hear' about how other counties select their President/Prime Minister or whatever ever your calls their President.
I find politics interesting.
Are you all separated by party? Do you have something similar to Democrats/Republicans or Independents (where Independent really doesn't count?
Which country was it that political members had an actual physical fight recently. Is that type of thing normal?
How is Brexit coming along?
An Independent candidate (Jill Stein filled papers for a recount in three states in the US) do you all have recounts also?
Do you all have the Electoral College?
Teach us who don't know :)
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Thank you Onward, you clarified that much better then I. I didn't want to go into TOO much depth, as I didn't want to bore them, but you did a beautiful job and kept it short and interesting as well.
No system is perfect, the one thing I have noticed with United States is a reluctance to listen to any other views/opinions/ideas by others. Every country has something special to offer. It seems ridiculous to me, not to look at what others have/are doing and see if there is anything that MIGHT be of use to us. Anything that might improve upon our system.
I am not trying to be unkind here, as we are guilty of the same thing. For example, most Canadians would very much like our SENATORS to be ELECTED, like the United States does. Ours are appointments made by our sitting PRIME MINISTER and is used to get policies/bills/decisions passed that the Prime Ministers wants. One example of that, was the old GST (Goods and Services Tax) It has been replaced with HST (Harmonized Sales Tax) in recent years, but basically another tax on purchases. Needlelss to say, we did not want it, as we feel we are taxed quite enough. It was voted and approved on by congress and then, the P.M. appointed some new Senators, that would support it... and bing bodda boom, we have a new TAX.
In my opinion it is misused by our Prime Ministers... and all of them have been guilty of this. Every single one of them. The other problem, our Senators can and are appointed for life. I personally do not think anybody who has NOTbeen elected by us, should have the right to DECIDE, finalize and formulate laws and policies. In my opinions, Senators should be elected just like our congressmen/women. End of story. Just like the United States.
Like the U.S. the legislature hides behind the "Constitution" to prevent taking this power away from our Prime Ministers. By the way, even though many P. M. ran on the stand that they would REMOVE this Tax... it has NEVER happened. I tell you this, just so you know, I am trying to be fair and not pointing my finger at the U.S.A. Every country has a something to learn from others. Most do not listen, sadly.
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About a hundred years ago (1914) the 17th ammendent was passed in the US to move senators to an elected position, so we used to have something more similar to the Canadian setup, although it was always a 6 year term. Lifetime appointments seems pretty crazy but we have that in the Supreme Court. Even that differs at the state level. For example in my state there is a mandatory judicial retirement age of 75.
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Actually Elray, with Senators they are appointed. End of story... can stay as long as they want, unless they do something illegal! As for the rest of our congress, counselor and even Prime Minister, as long as they are dutifully elected by the people, then they can stay.
As we have said, our Prime Minister is selected by it's party, ie. Liberals, Conservatives, New Democratic Party, Marajuana Party...(yes we actually have such a party)... the Green Party, etc. etc. Now, what generally happens, the party that is elected to power LEADER, becomes the Prime Minister. As long as that party stays in power and that can be for many, many years, generally they keep their leader and he / she remains the Prime Minister. When they lose, which they almost always do eventually, often the leader steps down, but if he / she does not, then there is a LEADERSHIP convention, where he/she is normally voted out and someone NEW is selected.
If your interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Canada
Pierre Elliott Trudeau our present Prime Ministers father was in power twice... once for 11 years and the second time after a very short break where Joe Clark replaced him and was the shortest duration of any PM in our history, Pierre E. Trudeau ran and won back his seat and remained Prime Minister for 4 more years.
Our system is pretty much the same as Great Britain. Basically, we feel, if a party (thereby the Prime Minister) can continue to win our votes, then they should remain. It is OUR choice. Term limits continually come up for discussion but so far, it has not changed. Unlike the Senator thing, the majority of Canadians would prefer to VOTE for our senators, yet that has not been acted upon. Quite annoying but I assume that Canadians must let the question lapse, because when we get pi$$y we usually have our way.
Canada definitely leans towards liberalism, although there is very little difference between any of our parties these days. We are quite socialistic, we like it that way. We don't like people being hungry, unhealthy and homeless.
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In Portugal we have a President and a government lead by a Prime Minister that usually is the leader of the party with most votes, be it a single party government or a coalition govenment. The leader of the most voted party does not have to be the Prime Minister, for government, we vote for a party, not a person, it can be another person from the same party.
The voting system for government is some how similar to Canada's one. The larger administrative parts Portugal is divided are Distritos, each with representation on Parliament, including the autonomous regions of Madeira and Açores (Azores) - Madeira and Açores also have their own local parliements.
Like in Canada, we have several parties and we have had coalition governments. Our current government is a coalition one, and, actually, the main party in the coalition was not the most voted party. The most voted party did not had enough votes to govern nor could find anyone to make a coalition with them. In a case like that the next most voted party, if able to form a coalition can govern, if not, new elections will be held.
Presiodential elections are separated from government/parliament elections. The President can be from one party, or an Independent, and the Prime-Minister from another. Currently we have a President that is a member of a party, but has run as an Independent, a Prime Minister from another party and a government with three parties. There are more three or four parties in Parliement.
If the Prime Minister dies, another member of his party, be it a cabinet member or not, will become the Prime Minister, if something happens to the President the sucessor is the head of Parliement. We do not have a Vice-President.
We call Minister to what in the US roughly matches our Foreign Office Minister. State Secretary is a position below minister, either from the same Ministry or for things that do not have a Ministry (those things depend of each government, sometimes Culture is a Ministry other times it is not), there are also Under Sub Secretaries, a position below State Secretary.
The number of ministers and ministries depends of each government.
Seats in Parliement are proporcional to the votes each party had, but Parliement is a different body. The bigger party may not agree with all policies from its government.
We also have "motion of non-confidence". The President can dissolve Parliement under certain situations and new elections will be held.
Spain, that like the UK is a Monarchy, has had three elections on the space of 18 months, I think, because the most voted party did not had a majority and the other parties refused to made a coalition. Third time around they allow that party to rule as a minority. A minority party will have to strike deals in Parliement and is always under a lot of stress.
France system is more like the US one, the President runs the country, but they have a Prime Minister. Of course they also have a parliement. Germany has a chancellor, and a President. People only ever heard of the Chancellor, usually, no one outside Germany knows the name of the German President. Germany also has a parliement, called the Bundestag.
We call our Assembleia da República (The Republic's Assembly).
Several countries in Europe are monarchies, the King/Queen is the head of state, but the country is de facto run by the government. Kings and Queens are not electec, so like in the US, they only have a major national election.
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Do you like France, have "run offs"? You know, several parties run, the people vote and parties are eliminated until it comes down to the two main parties, then there is a final vote. That is the winner! Interesting, but fairly long process.
We also can have minority governments. Like Portugal very difficult to keep functioning, but in many ways a rather ideal situation because it forces all the members to work together. They will function like that until either a new election is called or a vote of "non-confidence" occurs, then an election is forced.
Interesting.
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Do you like France, have "run offs"? You know, several parties run, the people vote and parties are eliminated until it comes down to the two main parties, then there is a final vote. That is the winner! Interesting, but fairly long process.
No, we do not. All parties run. Our current goverment coalition has three parties. And there are more three or four in Parliement.
For President, any Portuguese citizen above 35 whose campgain has been aproved by the Constitutional Court can run. Early this year there was a presidencial election and 10 people run. If no one has 50% + 1, there will be a second round, usually with the most voted candidates. In such case, the other candidates tend to chose who to endorse and people will vote a second time.
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For anyone interested, there are free downloadable/printable non-partisan window signs "Hate Has No Home Here" available at the link below. Click on the yard sign link for a horizontal 8.5 x11 inch sign. They are filling the windows of my neighborhood and are a welcome sight. Feel free to pass on the information, but keep confidential about this forum please.
http://www.hnpca.org/
Phoenix
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Love it! Thank you, Phoenix!
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;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Phoenix :)
Wondering if it's just me that's noticing an alarming number of Trump's campaign promises are suddenly changing a whole lot? And the despicable hate speech has turned into 'unity calls'?
Are the Trump voters upset the man they voted for changing his direction so drastically before actually becoming President?
If it were me that voted for him and wanted such discrimination and bigotry, I'd be very upset and would think Trump lied from Day 1.
As someone who was VERY offended by Trump's vitriol and hatred for those who are not all white, it changes nothing and I'm still scared that man won! And still think he's a racist and bigot and still fear for our future as a country.
Now I'm reading Trump didn't want us to listen to his words or take him seriously or literally. huh? ??? Who is this man? and How will he govern?
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I know what you mean, Elegance. I always understood Trump is merely an egomaniac opportunist who will say whatever he needs to say in the moment to get the biggest response from his base. Truth, reality, sense and what's best for the country doesn't mean anything to him. His tax plan will cost us trillions. He's clueless on national and international policy and all he is doing is appointing the same old guard (including Wall Street insiders) he claimed he would be "draining from the swamp." ::) Anyone who believed that drivel wasn't very smart or very informed. Trump has never been more than a childish, tantruming, narcissist who is way over his head. Our country looks idiotic with him coming into office and the Carrier deal in Indiana sums up his stupidity and shortsightedness in one fell swoop. When even Sarah Palin is blasting you you know you've reached new lows. I'm just surprised that anyone is surprised by his antics, back peddling, and contradictions. Trump is completely transparent. It was clear from the start exactly who he is and what direction he would go in. I have no idea how people could be so taken in, but at least I have the peace of mind that I didn't vote for him and I will continue working to get him and Pence out of the Whitehouse as soon as possible.
Phoenix
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Love those window signs, Phoenix.
Like Phoenix said, Elegance, Trump is an oppurtinist, a very good one, that will say whatever allows him to get his way.
Not US related, but I am really happy that Austria elected a Green President instead of a Nazi one. Las thing Europe and the EU need is a Nazi president running Austria. Or any other country for that matter, but Hitler was an Austrian.
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Phoenix,
All I have to say is when he said draining the swamp guess he didn't mean what people thought he meant.
The "swamp" is only growing by appointing his billionaire friends from Wall Street. Appointing CEO's from huge Wall street companies is only coggling the drain worse.
I wonder who is giving him advice? Pence or the Tea Party??
I never liked Trump but I honestly thought he would try to do good by the American people. I had hopes he was going to get get good advise. I was so wrong.
I now have fear for our country. I see Social Security, Medicare and so many other social programs at risk.
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And to think many people voted for Trump because he was not the establishement. ::)
Hope things go well for the US and its people.
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The question remains... what 'swamp' was Trump talking about when it looks like the same old cast?
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new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8480.0