Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: denjef31 on December 12, 2016, 03:42:40 PM
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New Thread as we were past 150 post. Don't want to get in trouble ;)
Previous thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8451.msg550967#new
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Attaching ..
Well done on your 94 .. Brilliant.
Hope you feel better x
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Im here
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Attaching; and kudos on your exam.
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Coming along, Denjef.
At the end of your last thread you wrote a response back to me that I think you meant for somebody else. My exH has never tried to come back and is still currently quite enamored with the OW. He is a vanisher. There is no contact between us even though we live 5 minutes apart.
You must have meant your detailed answer for somebody else! :)
But hey....way to go on that test!
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Congrats on the test and good luck on the rest this week!!
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Thank you so much Denjef, I'm pretty certain your reply was for me as StillBaffled posted a helpful response on my post 😊
I really appreciate your thoughts on my situation, what you've said feels like a perfect summation of how I felt and how I imagine he felt. I'm sure that there is more than just me and StillBaffled that feel like this and your words will help all of us
I think I was tougher on him than I realised, I did constantly tell him that I had hope, but I did feel like he should be crawling back on broken glass to get another chance with me and I was disappointed that he wasn't.
StillBaffled said
If I were to contact him I feel as though it makes me look "needy" and trying to compete for his attention and that is not me. I will never, ever beg anyone to be with me
SB said the above which Is exactly how I felt too. I didn't ever want him to think I was desperate for him so I did not pave the way either. I'm grateful that I have a better understanding of MLC now and IF he tries again I might be able to handle things differently
Neither of us wanted to talk about emotional stuff all the time but we couldn't seem to be natural with each other and I think he could always see my disappointment, I don't think I tried to hide that from him, so I think you're right, it was easier to run back to OW
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, I really am so very grateful. I'm going to copy my question and your reply onto my own thread as I know I will want to keep reading what you wrote. I will also keep reading these threads because I'm finding them really enlightening
I really hope your feeling better, massive congratulations on your 94%, wow, what you're achieving is incredible with everything your going through in your own relationship and you're still finding time to answer our questions, you're going to be a fantastic nurse, your strength and kindness shines out, thank you and good luck with your upcoming exams 😊
Another thank you 😊
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Attaching Denjef, congrats on the exam.
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Where is the new thread?
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Denjef, congratulations on your final exam grade. That's a fantastic accomplishment, especially for somebody who has been through an MLC and is now dealing with an MLCer.
I'm finally getting caught up with these threads and I've been wanting to mention that I find what Denjef is writing to be very credible because I went through a mild crisis (no ow) and much of what she has been writing mirrors what I was feeling at the time. I'm especially interested in the parts about the relationship with the op since I didn't go that far so I find that part of my wife's MLC difficult to comprehend. I do believe, though, that the relationship with the om is a compulsion and in my wife's case I think it's intensified by a narcissistic om who is very good at emotional abuse and manipulative behavior. I'm interested in reading Denjef's answer to the question that was posted several pages back regarding how she now feels about the om in her situation.
Note to StillBaffled. Standing requires a lot of faith. Faith in the person your spouse once was, faith that you once had a good, strong marriage, faith in the MLC process, and faith in your ability to maintain your love for your spouse throughout their MLC. Some of these are easier when you have a boomerang or a clinging boomerang then they are when you have a vanisher like your MLCer but there's one more thing I have faith in and I believe it also applies to you. That is, faith that the op is such an affair down that eventually the relationship with the op will become so bad that the MLCer will be forced to question why they ever got involved with the op in the first place and that will be the beginning of the MLCer's awakening. That's my expectation but maybe Denjef can confirm or deny this possibility.
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strength, this is the new thread. The first thread can still be found at:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8451.msg550967#new
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Following. Denjef, way to go, congrats on your test! ;D
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Hi Den! I'm sad to hear you aren't feeling well, sometimes it just seems like it all happens at once when it comes to illness! At least it didn't affect you test though, congratulations! Hugs.
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Attaching.
Congratulations.
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Hey Den!
Way to go on the test (https://smileyshack.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/sdrinking_100-108.gif)
I hope that you feel better soon. Rest, warmth... you know the drill....
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Hi Denjef!! Congratulations on the test ! Awesome job ! Sorry to hear you're feeling under the weather... hope you get well soon.
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Congrats! You're awesome in more ways than one!
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So happy you are back Denjef. Really miss all of your advice. I have been posting but see nothing from you. Hope you come back to the threads. Praying that school is almost over for semester and that you are feeling better.
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Attaching, DenJef ...
I have been following your story ... I hope you keep posting. I am sorry you are not feeling well. As everyone else has said, congratulations on your test.
Newbie Never!
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Attaching. Congrats on your exam!
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Hey Everybody, I finally have a break!!!! How is everybody? Sad to say I have done no xmas shopping. Starving student syndrome, but H gave me money to do the kids shopping. I guess I will force myself to go tomorrow some time. I know its me because of my studies but I just don't feel like xmas at all this year.
I hope I get in the spirit soon, maybe I will rent Rudolph and bake some gingerbread cookies with eggnog tomorrow night to help get in the festive spirit. What is everybody doing to get in the xmas spirit??
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Hi Den!!!! So glad to hear from you and that you're finally getting a break ! Your plans for tomorrow sound good and I think it will get you in the spirit . Christmas has always been my favorite time of year and for the past six years it's been strange enough being in Florida where I'm sweating bullets singing let it snow , LOL. But last year was hideous and was the loneliness Christmas I ever had, 2 Christmases prior to that I was walking on eggshells so... this year I made a choice and I'm going back to Maryland and going to spend it with my family there and my grandson who's 2 and a half years old . I'm truly excited! I'm praying for snow ! I can't wait to see my grandson's face on Christmas morning and all of the traditions that go with Christmas !! So I'm going to take a break from MLC land and fill my spirit!! Wishing everybody what the true meaning of Christmas is all about – that they may be filled with some Peace, Joy, Love, Faith and above all here... COMFORT!! God bless you Denjef and all my fellow LBS's!!!
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Butterfly,
I am so glad to hear you are in a better space this year. I love Florida, it is my favorite state to visit. I haven't taken a vacation to Florida in 2 years, oh how I miss it. I would love to have snow for a day, but people cant drive in snow down south so I don't want it to stick around lol. Cant have it both ways I guess :)
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Lol!! She can't have it both ways but funny enough they can't drive in it in Maryland either . Hahahaha ! Anytime you want to visit let me know , open invitation !
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I meant you, not she. Autocorrect!
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Glad to see you are back Denjef. Lots of questions for you.
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Glad to see you back, too! I'm anxious to see Strength's questions and all of your postings. I printed out all of your posts and study them. Thank you for reliving your past. I really appreciate it.
I hope you are feeling better. Just came home from X-mas shopping with my D. Last year, I did no shopping, no baking, no decorations, so I am in a little better place this year (I think!)
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I have had to push myself through the Christmas "blahs" a bit this year because it will be the first year H has ever been away for Christmas, although last 2 years he may has well have been in many ways, as he was only partially here - in body only some moments.
I have been trying to take in the beauty of the snow and trying to embrace the positive holiday people. I had a gentleman pay for my kids and my coffee at the diner. He pays for someone's order each week it seems and doesn't want acknowledgement. Trying to be grateful for what I do have ;)
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DenJef,
I know I have been a pain, but I am seriously waiting for you to post because I know you have been on "the other side," and I am so curious about what you have to say about what is going on in the MLCer's mind.
You have given so much incredible insight and have offered invaluable advice to LBSes, and i know you have your own life to live and school to deal with and you have been sick, but I just want to thank you for everything you have done to help "us" through this turmoil we are going through, especially through the holiday season.
THIS SUCKS. :'( :'( :'( :'( I KNOW YOU KNOW AND WHAT IS AMAZING IS YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH BOTH SIDE OF IT. YOU ARE INCREDIBLE!! RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE MY PERSONAL GOD!!
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Butterfly,
Thank you I love Florida so I just might take you up on that invitation when I graduate in the fall :)
Never,
Did you post a question for me on the fog 2 thread? If you did I am sorry, copy and paste here I will respond to you today.
Strength,
I am here. You know that. We will get thru this together. You are so struggling with this and I can almost feel your aching. What you want may or may not be obtainable but I know for certain, nothing can or will happen until you release him. Know that I of all people know how incredibly difficult and painful that is to do. But think for a minute that it is not really giving up or giving in but you will in essence stop the bleeding of your heart.
In order for you to get the love you seek from H or anybody else you must love yourself more than you love H. When you love yourself more you wont accept less than you deserve. You will no longer let this illness affect you, control you, and consume you in the profound way that it does right now. I will keep talking to you, I will keep giving you 2 x4, and I wont let up until you do this for yourself.
Denjef31
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Hi Denjef,
I am 18 months post BD. We've had back and forth living arrangements. I said on an earlier post that I dropped the rope in Oct and so far 2 months NC, accept for 1 school function that was just unavoidable. We exchanged hello's and did not sit with each other. Her choice.
My MIL basically lives in our home because she has to play the traditional role of a parent for our 2 boys, primarily cooking/cleaning. She informs me that W is back in her bedroom ,all day again, straight from work since I left.
She has isolated herself and talks to no one. This is not the Master bedroom, she has her own makeshift room for the entire 18 months and she sleeps on a mattress on the floor.
This is the 3rd time now that she has gone into this isolation period. They usually last anywhere from 3-4 months.
I did tell her why I left in Oct due to her anger and abuse issues which is getting physical.
MIL and FIL both say she is still using the Watcher has not changed mantra. W also complained that I did not take enough photos in Church that school day and did not stay long enough at the after party. Hence, my not changing.
I did the scary math last night. In 18 months we have seen each other 38 days and that includes living together for 8 months. It's all depression and isolation for the most part. Any thoughts ? Thanks.
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Denjef,
Thank you for that answer to Strength. i feel that that is where I stand. I think I love H more than I love myself. I didn't post a question, it's just a how/why can/did this happen?
I feel Strength's pain so much also, my heart bleeds for her right now. Although my H is still at home (barely) I just don't understand any of this. My H is different in that he only comes home to shower and go to work. He doesn't eat with us, sleep here, nothing. He tells me he loves me, he kisses me good bye in the morning. It is so frustrating.
He looks awful, seems so depressed, when he is here on his days off of work (he is in law enforcement so it's scattered days,) he does stay here during the day then and all he does is watch TV and cry and drink. He is a total alcoholic (for the past four years since this started.) He does nothing around the house. He goes between being totally nasty to me and then saying how sorry he is and how he is going to change and how much he loves me.
When I tell him to please move out until he figures himself out, he won't go. He says this is his house, there is no one else for him, it is utterly frustrating. I went to OW's house twice, which I will never do again, and actually went up to the door and they were eating dinner together like an old married couple. When I asked him in front of her to choose her or me, he said her. OMG. That was in the summer. I packed his bags and he still wouldn't leave. He said this is his house.
I went totally dim, as much as I could still living under the same roof, but it's hard sometimes. D just graduated from firefighting school. H said we'd go out last night to celebrate. When D and I got home from shopping, H was gone. That is when I went off on him this morning.
Sorry so long:(
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Denjef,
I know others have said this, but I too want to extend my gratitude for your posts. To bare your own painful experiences from both sides and still answer questions for so many is so kind and immensely helpful.
The pain that courses through this board is deeply felt by so many, but so do the words of encouragement and evidence of healing. Thanks for continuing to share your insight and may your H work through his tunnel as well.
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Denjef,
Does it really help when you dont pursue the mlcer? I have not had much contact with him in the last year. We went 8 months without seeing each other, then out of the blue in august he insisted on a face face talk. He told me that he wanted to work things out and wasnt happy with the ow. I havent seen or heard from him since september 5.
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Watcher,
Oh do I really sympathize with what you are dealing with. I have read your thread as I find it particularly interesting that she has not done anything to come out of this depression. I will say that I did this for a long time BEFORE I was diagnosed by my doctor, psychiatrist, and counselor as depressed. At first they contributed everything to stress. My day would go like this. Wake up from only having maybe 2 or 3 hours of sleep as my mind raced and I couldn't escape the thoughts or chatter in my head. Go to work on half functioning capacity. Barely fulfilling the requirements of honest days work for pay. Make half empty smiles at work, decline to go to lunch with coworkers and pretty much withdrew from socializing at work. Watch the clock all day waiting for 5pm.
When I am finally released from prison/work I would pick the kids up McDonald's as I had given up on cooking and baking which I have always enjoyed. Said hello to the kids, then resigned to my room for the evening where I would pick back up where I left off this morning thinking and processing. Some days to lazy, unmotivated, and plain ol just didn't care to shower before going to work. My doctor and psychiatrist took me out of work several times for months at a time due to my depression. There were days I just refused to get out of bed and I just felt like let me die lord just tell me the kids will be okay. I went thru this period for approximately 2 years.
2 years of nothingness, then I decided to take it up a notch I decided my withdrawal from my H and the kids still had not brought me any happiness. That's when I started up with entertaining the attention of OM. Threatening my H with divorce, being argumentative, kicking H out the house, going on smear campaign to anybody that would listen how horrible my H is and why I should leave him. I appeared to be happier to everyone on the outside. Obviously I made the right choice and everybody was happy for me to finally have peace.
Only I wasn't getting peace. I turned my world upside down and I was miserable than ever. Somewhere around this time my psychiatrist wanted to know my thoughts about checking in to the mental institution for a few days. I knew then I had to make some changes, but I wasn't ready to make those changes so I decided to not be honest with my team of professionals as the more deeper depressed I came the likelihood of them involuntarily committing me was a real possibility.
I pretend to get better, to have a different outlook. It was all a lie as I was still going home crying all night, half functioning at work, having my poor me pity party but doing nothing to change anything. I do not know why I stayed in this limbo stage for so long. I had my periods of highs when I was with OM, but as soon as our time together ended the depression, the demons were waiting for me.
Your wife is simply stuck. She has not found her motivation to change yet. She blames you for not changing but that is just deflection. She is aware she has not lifted a finger to change and she is ashamed of it but lacks the strength, courage, or willpower to do anything more than what she is doing. Has your wife suffered depression before? Is she currently taking any type of antidepressants right now?
Watcher, you absolutely did the best thing you could was get out of her way and the toxic hell she is creating. This will end when she lifts her head up and stop being the victim. I am very concerned about what you are seeing and hearing. It is very hard to wait for someone you love to seek help, any help but she has to want the help Watcher or any intervention will not last and it will not work. Chatter and confusion exist and have taken over in her head. Do your FIL and MIL live with her?
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Never,
Wow you have a total monster on your hands. This is a classic example of why you never give an MLC an ultimatum of either her or me or else. They will never choose there spouse when they are deep in the fog. What type of boundaries have you put in place to minimize the hurt and destruction he is causing??
What you have is a situation where you have been shelfed for a later time to decide who he wants to be with. It is so disrespectful and demeaning to you on so many levels. It has also given the OW a false sense of security that will come to bite her in the end. I don't do a whole lot of boundaries personally, but in this situation I would.
He is not cake eating he is just being a selfish a$$. He has some awareness of the amount of betrayal and hurt he is causing you, but he just doesn't care enough to stop right now. This could go on for quite some time unfortunately. Some things has to change for the worse for him to even begin to cognitively think about the choices he is making. Either OW lets her mask slip, something happens to knock him off his high horse of confidence, a tragedy happens, or he just start doing the work internally. I don't think he is ready yet to do anything but take the easy route for now which is have fun with floozy.
Not a lot you can do besides trying to minimize your exposure. He seems to have a pattern, he comes in the morning I would be gone for a jog, a walk, grab coffee, anything but be there to see him make a pit stop every morning from OW house. He wouldn't have a chance to tell me he loves as those words are just empty gibberish right now. Get busy, stay out of his way and unavailable. You do this until you are strong enough and are indifferent to this sort of behavior.
You may not say anything but we pick up on the fact that you are in pain, that you are sad and we enjoy it to some extent. It makes us feel good are about are miserable existence. Your pain makes us feel better, it makes us feel that we are doing the right thing. We feel vindicated in some evil twisted way. You self pity basically becomes a sign that you caused are misery, and you are the reason for everything negative, bad thing we were feeling and now that we have broken away from you we are finally happy and we see you for the real you. You are the one who is stuck and miserable and I am so much better from breaking away from you is what we think in our heads about hurting you.
Get out of this vicious cycle, it can go and on until one of the things I mentioned above happens, or you decide to get off the freaking nightmare rollercoaster. Time is a gift if you do the work on yourself. If you do not then time can be a bitter curse. What work do you need to do? You get to decide but your H is too far removed from you right now. Take the focus off of him so he can put the focus back on you.
Denjef31
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Hi Denjef, I love all the advice you give everyone, I hate to add to the list but I am in need of some advice.
My W is live with OM, just started taking meds for anxiety and depression. For the last month she texts me every work day and calls me on her way home, she is hiding this from him cause usually that is the only times I hear from her.
Now she has reached out to me this week and through our talk has expressed an interest in spending family time together with D and I, but I think it is only because D refuses to see her, I hope I am wrong.
I was interested in your take on this.
Thanks.
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Krathos,
Of course she is hiding it from OM. It doesn't matter that she is hiding it from OM. What does matter is that despite whatever perceived problem she thinks it may cause she is still reaching out and communicating with you. As crazy as this may sound communication often is started/initiated in secret. Not too many will openly call their ex/spouse with their current OW/OM within earshot of them as they know they can't be authentic or say what they really want to say.
This is a great opportunity for you to be the lighthouse for her. Let her get comfortable reaching out to you, talking to you. Strive to rebuild that friendship with her Krathos. She already seems to be thinking about things. Not liking the amount of control she feels OM has on her. These small things will grow, the chains are already turning in motion. This will lead to rebellion on her part eventually, and the problems will grow between her and OM. You don't need to do anything but be kind and nice, the opposite of what is about to start happening if it hasn't already between her and OM.
It will start off very very slow and you will wonder if you misread her. If anything is happening, but growth is underneath and internally. Outward growth is always the last and that is the changes you will see visually. It takes many tries and there will be false starts, but your kindness can be her light to a path of change.
Denjef31
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Bluerose,
Absolutely!!!! I am speaking from personal experience and from reading other threads. When you pursue it inflates our ego. It is exhilarating to know someone loves and cares for you so much despite how you are treating them. It also reinforces behavior you don't want. The "dance" ensues. When I would verbally tell my H I loved him and I wanted to work on the marriage it was if I had 3 heads attached to my neck and was speaking greek. He ran, he wouldn't call me, he wouldn't come see me or the kids. He couldn't handle my feelings, he wasn't interested in my feelings either.
I thought if I truly showed him and told him he would see my love is real and would want to work on the marriage or at least see if there was potential to rebuild. I tried and tried this method for months of texting long snoopy love messages. Calling crying while confessing my love and desire to fix whatever was broken. All pathetic in his eyes and the more I did that the more I heard I love you but I think we are better off as friends. I got tired of this so I just stopped for my own good. The pain of rejection was a bitter blow to my own ego and heart.
I stopped calling, I stopped texting. I let some of his calls go unanswered, and text messages go unanswered unless they were about the kids. I got to a point where I said f it. He didn't notice at first or maybe he didn't care. It took weeks of me not reaching out. I was quiet not a word from me. Finally he started calling instead of texting me about silly things. It was always about the kids. I didn't pay attention at first as I thought it really was all he wanted was to keep the conversation about the kids and for me to move on. But this way his way of checking the anchor.
I would answer his question or reason for call and hang up. So he couldn't determine by that phone call what my thought process was at the time. He would wait a few days call for another reason again about the kids and I would do the same thing answer and hang up. He would pick up our son for FB practice if I looked nice, or maybe looked like I was anticipating seeing him he would back away a little like drop him off and not come in. He saw me earlier and I probably gave a vibe and he got his fix that was all he needed.
I then up the anty and I started taking it upon myself to drop our son off to practice so he wouldn't need to come to the house to pick him up, and I would offer to pick him up from practice or just go pick him up from practice if I hadn't heard from him. I decided to limit calling at all even if it was a valid reason. He of course notice that too and he would drop him off and come in the house. I would always look nice but I wouldn't pay him any attention and he would come over give me a hug and a kiss and leave quickly. I didn't let on that it affected me but it did.
I then started staying in my room and he would come up there to see me and speak. We did this dance for a little while. I went from pursuing and being rejected, to distancing myself and being pursued. Same thing for when I was depressed. He pursued and I distanced, I wanted nothing to do with his begging and pleading for another chance. He stopped I noticed, and I started pursuing.
Denjef31
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Hi Denjef,
What type of MLCer were you and what is your H if you don't mind me asking? A Clinging booomerang? A Wallower? A off/ on?
I ask to get a good thought of where you are coing from to possibly ask you a question.
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Thank you Denfef for your input, I really appreciate it.
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Thanks for the reply Denjef,
I agree that she is stuck. Last contact with OM was August 2015. As of August 2016 she admitted to me he was still on her brain. She admitted to her mom last week that OM is still the problem. She chooses to remain stuck in this fantasy, I believe.
Now I recognize that he is the symptom and the overall crisis is much larger. She really does feel that he is her lone issue. Could she just be using OM as an excuse from addressing her overall issues. That would appear to be the case.
As for the parents, MIL does basically live with her while I moved out.
She does have a long history of depression. Postpartum 2003-2006, which was just as bad. She was under care from 2007-2014 and she stopped going with the start of MLC.
She has lost a tremendous amount of weight and that is her excuse for staying off the meds. She says it made her heavier. She also blames the meds and her Dr for not preventing the OM situation. It's your typical blame everyone else scenario.
I have been NC for 2 months but like I said, we have only interacted on 38 days over 18 months. That really would indicate that I'm not pursuing. I did all the usual LBS stuff at BD but I was thrown out at month 4 so there really has been no pursuit since.
We lived together again from months 8-15. I think that was my mistake. She had her way with me and re established control. She got her security and reassurance back. She had begun to panic.
I'm out so far months 16-18. She complained that I missed Thanksgiving and I believe the next 2 Holidays should be also skipped. She expects me for Christmas.
I really hate looking at it this way but I can be out at the moment through month 26 and that would bring us to the start of September. I just don't see my absence being a motivation for her to panic again.
She's too comfortable. She knows that Im too dependable and reliable and I think about the kids and their future. Your H pulled away and you felt it. She is not feeling it. Like I said it's a new phase and it's only been 2 months. Maybe more time. I really don't know.
You know I hate saying it and I would never use them, but the kids really are the key for her getting help. That is the one area where she has held my hand to the fire. The boys are not to have their lives interrupted with this mess.
Thanks again
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Thank you so much Denjef for coming back and replying to all. I needed a break from the site. I have been trying to make sense of my life right now. H pushed the D button and now we are on our last lapse. I am in so much pain but I need to move on with my life. Children tell me I should have done this long ago, "Mom you need to live, no one ever knows how much time we have left, so let it go and start a new life". Easier said than done. I have been mourning the D. H is pushing forward now with OW. I heard they are going away for H 63rd this week. Oh what fun they are having. H never gives me a thought. I have no choice but to move on with my life.
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Den,
I and a couple others were wondering about your opinion now about the om?
But i also have others. My h seems like nevers". He knows. He is causing pain but not ready to do anything. H has been holdong a d over my head for a long time. He has been giving me his paycheck. He tells people he cant move out of his parents house( he sleeps at ow) because i wont give him his money. He says he cant move on with his life and get an apt because of me.
H has not made one decision about this d. His lawyer told him to take some of hos paycheck and he said no.
Well i decided for h to take his money and give me only what the agreement says. I told h he can now gert his apt. He says he still cant .more bull$h!te excuses.
I am emailing his lawyer because honeslty i cant handle this anymore. I dont want it but im coming up on 3 years and just need an end. So with giving h his money and his d im giving him his freedom and independence that he wanted.
This all happened within 3 weeks. In that time though h wanted to meet for coffee . He tld me how thanksgiving was so hard. He asked me if i go to church. He mentioned something about wanting " happy pills " antidepressents. We were at a function and as he said goodbye he grabbed and rubbed my ass but now denies.
So with these mixed messeges ,i have had it. I but the pressure on with this d. It is messing with me.
He was coming around to fix things and i put a stop to this as well i told him as long as he is with ow ,i dont want to seee him.
Im just as confusing because i say this stuff to him then will invite him over. For something stupid. Or i will stop at his parents for something stupid. He is aware of this as well and has told me.
He has also told me that im pathetic when pursing. He has a big ego because of this. He has told me this as well. He cant beleive im still putting up with this after 2.5 years.
I have tried to go nc but i get so sad and miss him. Yes pathetic. I hate other woman who is so below me .why do i waste my time on this? I just hate she gets the time with my h when i want that time with him. I should be used to this .its been so lng.
Because im pushing for this d does he think i really want it? I do to a certain point because i have no idea how long he will be like this. Its humiliating because this ow lives in this small town . I dont want the d if he can come thru this and be a better man.
He did tell me that everytime he tries to talk , i bring the conversation south. He likes talking to me but i only call him. I always think my h needs reasurrnce from me but with what he has told me i think he thinks ill be here forver. He has said that he has to acceot that i will bother him the rest of his life. He hates his life . He is miserble. He told me he doesnt care much for ow. That they should have never got together. But there is no change. He has also told me that ow told him she promised herself that she wouldnt get invovled with a man with a crazy wife.( its the 2 married man ) He has also told me he didnt want to hurt her but felt bad for hurting me.
He also always says jokingly. " what do you want me to just come home" he has said this so many times. I mix up my answer. Sometimes i say yes and sometimes i say no.
Ill say something like. Him getting his life together . And he laughs and says you only think by getting my life together is coming back to you. Thats never going to happen.
He has said he is firetrucked up. And i said im here to listen and undertsand when you are ready. He says. Will do.
Im sorry so long. Whats your insight in all this crazy stuff. Thanks
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Im hurting because he doesnt call. He doesnt seem to care . He was deep into this affair a year ago . It started deep in june of 2015. It is different. Other things do matter to himnow. Like his kids and trying to repair the relationship with them . Its also what he said. Why wont he just talk about what is going on in his head? The confusion and all ? I miss himso much. He has been my friend since 15. I cant seem to let go completely.
His parents are sick of his behavior as well. Im hoping they can shake him up a bit also.
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I would say I was a wallower/boomerang at times. My H is definitely a clinging boomerang.
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Im hurting because he doesnt call. He doesnt seem to care . He was deep into this affair a year ago . It started deep in june of 2015. It is different. Other things do matter to himnow. Like his kids and trying to repair the relationship with them . Its also what he said. Why wont he just talk about what is going on in his head? The confusion and all ? I miss himso much. He has been my friend since 15. I cant seem to let go completely.
His parents are sick of his behavior as well. Im hoping they can shake him up a bit also.
KB - I understand how you feel. My exH doesn't call, text, email, stop at the house.....nothing. He avoids me like the plague. I have also known my exH since he was 14 and I was 16. Lots and lots of history together. I understand how you feel. My exH's father and stepmother are also quite irritated with exH's behavior. Sadly, they have been unable to shake him up. If they push too hard he just avoids them and goes dark and dim. I would guess that it would probably be about the same in your case as well.
Maybe we never will let go completely. Maybe that's okay.
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Sb & kb
Mine is the same way. His d12 reached out to him last month to let him know she was cutting herself and thete was nothing in his voice. No compassion, caring,empathy or love. Nothing.
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My h does try to stop by and help but i put an end to that because i felt like a doormat . A chump. Like thanks for helping out but he goes off and lives his other life. his actions slightly shows he cares unless its his own guilt. He lives with his parents but sleeps at ow sometimes
He goes out and drinks then sleeps with ow . Shows up at parents the next day. Just like a teenager. He has his money now to get an apt. So his parents can tell him to move our. Get an apt ,go live with ow if he wants to sleep with her . Or whatever. Things have been stagnate. Everyone just standing by while h does this same routine. Something has to change. So i gave him his money and i hope his parents can tell him to go be independent somewhere else.
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DenJef, thank you for the reply. I couldn't respond last night because out of the blue H decides the spend the night. This has happened now six times since March. We only have one computer (his) so I couldn't get on it.
You mentioned not being there in the morning, but the problem is he gets home at 5 a.m. and leaves by 6. It is so disrespectful. He is not cake-eating, you are right, just expects food in the fridge, towels washed, et cetera. Says it's my job. Unreal. He is being a total a$$. I don't think he really wants OW, he just doesn't like getting older. That's his whole problem is what I think. He is narcissistic and it was all about his outer appearance (I'm learning that now,) and he feels no one is "looking at him any more."
How stupid is that? Thanks for posting. So bottom line, no questions like why are you doing this?
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Never, It seems all H's are the same. It is as though they follow a script.
Keep Believing, My H never bothers with me at all. I am 1000 miles from home and has no interest in making sure I am doing ok. H is so involved with OW, that H sees nothing else.
3 1/2+ years and nothing has changed and I am beginning to believe there will ever be normalcy again in this life. I feel sorry for the children and all they have to endure. We must stay strong.
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There most certainly is a "script". It is fascinating because many MLCers say the exact same words and are rather predictable in what they go through. Although it feels very slow, it is never stagnant. Change for them and for us is inevitable.
Life becomes different for the LBSer, that becomes the new normal. With time, as the pain fades, life becomes quite precious again. I know now what can be lost and so I am more aware of the joys of each passing moment.
I will say, that for me, it took about 6 years before I started to feel normal. I used to say that I had become a new xyzcf and that I didn't like her very much, but I think now, this different xyzcf has become more comfortable in her skin.
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Hi everyone.
Denjef I was wondering if you could even remember the good times with your H.
My husband keeps saying that was then. Here's where we are now.
I don't have proof of a current ow. He cheated briefly and said it was just to see if that was his problem. He wanted to be with someone else.
This never of course made much sense morally. But I'm dealing with drug use and very bipolar behavior.
He has certain days he doesn't come around. I worry he's creating a bond with someone else.
After we got the tree he seemed really confused as to why I wasn't all happy.
He said he doesn't come around some days because of my behavior. Must days I leave the area he's at and don't talk to him.
He's told me he isn't attracted to me anymore. He says this a few times. And then said he was mad at the time. But then he says he wasn't into me anymore physically. I guess I wonder why he wants to hurt me in that way. Like cheating wasn't enough.
H and I have been friends since we were ten. He keeps saying it means nothing to him.
From your experience did you project on to your h ?
Could you remember anything good about your life. Your past ? I can't believe he's throwing it all away.
A few days ago he said to D13 to be kind to me because I'm going through a lot.
He's the cause. How can he even tell the kids this knowing they all know.
I ask him anything and he refuses to answer or says I'm a liar to you anyway right ?
Well yes he is but I don't know if he is for real this guy. Who talks like that. Knowing all the lies.
Sometimes I want to tell him how can he forget our wedding day. Or the day our kids were born. Does that mean nothing now ? I want to tell him I love him.
But everyone says to do the 180.
Should I not ask him if he has someone. Should I not be open how I feel ?
Thank you in advance.
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Life becomes different for the LBSer, that becomes the new normal. With time, as the pain fades, life becomes quite precious again. I know now what can be lost and so I am more aware of the joys of each passing moment.
Very true and I'm learning this as well.
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I wonder the same thing. How can they just forget everything? How are they able to just pick up with a ow and her kid and keave everything elez behind and be ok with it?
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I have done so much reading on this site and others. I could rewrite all the scripts. Living home for one year, I heard it all. I don't believe H's care about the M. They have put it to rest. They are so caught up in their new lives that LBS does not matter. H called me twice last night, late, probably when OW was sleeping. I will no longer be H's fool. H has pushed it too far and I don't see anything changing for H.
When the MLC'ers come to wake, they will be shocked by all of our growth, love, religion and loyalty to children and family. My H made me out to be the worse W ever, heard it all from OW. Now OW can try to fill my shoes, which I don't believe she will ever be able to do. No morals and self centered
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Watcher,
I really feel bad for you as I can't fathom how incredibly difficult this is for you. What you are dealing with is much much more than MLC. Your wife has a major depressive disorder on top of MLC. I am not qualified to give expert advice but I will share with you that I have a very close friend whose son has been diagnosed as having major depressive disorder.
She has been battling this disease since he was 11 years old. He is now 22 years old. Nothing and I mean nothing has brought him out of this. He is also withdrawn, doesn't live the life a normal 22 year old will live. He has in fact done just about everything to try to commit suicide. When he isn't trying to commit suicide he lives a very dangerous life such as drinking beer and alcohol all day, on top of the anti-depressive medication he is on(which are several) and adds Percocet he has purchased off the streets.
My friend and her H are well off so they have sent him away several times for months at a time to expensive treatment facilities in ATL, Florida, Colorado spending thousands upon thousands of dollars trying to find something that will help their son. He will not take his medication consistently. He just doesn't care, and he believes the reason he is like this is everybody else's fault not his. He has gotten into several accidents while under the influence, lost jobs, to now he just doesn't leave the house.
I don't know what you can do to help her until she decides to help herself. They use everyone around them to their own advantage. They suck your energy dry, they suck away your compassion, they suck out your desire to help until you yourself are just empty. Be very careful with her, please just focus on your kids. If MIL and FIL drop the rope, maybe that will force her to at least try. She has no motivation to do so right now. Same thing I told my friend about her son, she has done everything for him as if he is still a child, gotten him out of trouble, replaced several cars, applied for jobs, provided him a very nice play to stay. If she just let him fall a victim to his own crap maybe just maybe he will not like the destruction he is creating and start doing differently.
Some will never get there though and that is also a real strong possibility with your W. What I find encouraging though, is on some cognitive level she realizes her role as a mom, and she is functioning in that capacity to some extent. Some dynamics in the household need to happen to force her out of that shell even more.
Denjef31
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Keep Believing,
At first we don't care. We don't call, we don't come by, we don't do what we are suppose to do for our spouses or kids. It's the same story "the script". We are too consumed and involved in this new life, new relationship, new freedom, being single, acting even just for hours each day we have no responsibilities. What a thrill! an emotional high we get from for lack of a better word not giving a f$%k.
I did it, and my H did it. Yet there will come a time when this will change. I did it to my H for almost 2.5 years. My H did it to me for close to months and I couldn't handle the pain and hurt from it. We are aware that we are hurting you, but we are not able to understand how great that pain is. How could it be that bad for you when I am so freaking happy right now? That's what we tell ourselves to rationalize what we are doing.
Our brain to some extent allows us to not absorb how devious and hurtful we truly are so that we are able to look in the mirror, get dressed and do it all over again the next day. When we start looking in the mirror not liking what we see, expressing our shame and guilt to you, drinking and drugging everyday that is a coping mechanism. At that point we are 100% totally aware of your level of pain, we are hurting just as much but we don't know how to fix it, where to begin. Life seems to us as if we would rather run off, move far away so we wont hurt you anymore. Some of us would rather just die, as life is just not worth living. We feel like a total failure, a royal f-up.
Despite all that, despite feeling this way there are some who will still day after day, month after month, and year after year continue to do the same thing knowing full well what they are doing. Those are the ones who feel it is too late, they cant come back, life with you will never be the same, you would never truly forgive them, and they are also aware they are in a miserable relationship with OW/OM. They want out, but they have lost you, lost themselves so as messed up as there life is right now that OW/OM is the last person they can go to. The person they gave up everything for, made a fool of themselves for and a mess of their lives so they have got to make this work.
Then, there are some men and women in MLC who felt miserable in the marriage, they cant see how things could change for the better. They made a decision to end the marriage, they are confident and they are not turning back. Even if OW/OM relationship doesn't work out, they still feel they are better off without you. They will try to start a new life, new friends, new career, new home. They are establishing themselves without you. For some it will work and there will be no chance to work things out. For some they will feel confident in the decision to leave but after months, years go by and they are still stuck in the same rut, even worse than before they will change their mind and wonder if it is possible that you are still interested? Do you still care for them? So much time has passed now, there is no more arguing, guilting, pleading, begging and crying from you. You have accepted that the marriage is over and done.
The lurkers sometimes come back even after making things so final such as divorcing you, marrying OW/OM, and having a baby. All of those things happen in real life but that doesn't mean they wont turn back to you. Doesn't mean they wont try in the future to come back. MLC is exploration of things that were, things you wish they were, things that could have been had we made different and other choices. I have said and will always say change your circumstances, change the environment of what was and make it what can be. They have to feel and believe what they have with you is better than what they are pursuing. The fear of losing you has to be greater than the desire to be with OW/OM.
They wont even think about those things until they feel the shift of energy. Until you shift your focus. They are comfortable in the fog. They are neither here nor there. They half exist in the euphorism of the fog. Many of you are too caught up on how could they do this to me. What makes OW/OM so special that they will leave the kids and me behind like yesterday's trash. You would be inflicting pain on yourself thinking this way as nothing about MLC is really about you. Nothing is about OW/OM. That is why for most they get involved with older OW/OM, they are not as attractive, they dont keep their houses clean, they are total opposite of you and usually not in a good way. They dont have much going for themselves and you cant imagine what your spouse found attractive in them.
What they found was someone who was vulnerable and looking for love. Someone who was willing to listen, hang on to every word. Put up with stuff you wouldn't. Stuff you took for granted, neglected, and they made them feel special. My H moved in with a troll. I am not trying to be mean, but she is truly not his type, she is not attractive, doesn't have anything going for herself, and the only thing he can say about her was that she is "nice" to him. My OM was overweight, and younger but not my type at all, but I was attracted to him like a moth to a flame. I fell for him because he was there, attentive, kind, and nice. You just cant understand or underestimate the pull of opposites attracting. We know it wont and cant last usually but we want to enjoy the ride while it lasts.
I wrote a book, even went off topic. I am sorry. I write too much I get going in my thoughts and cant turn them off.
Denjef31
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Omg den, I agree so much with what you said to Watcher.
I have always thought her problem is deeper than MLC.
I do think she is passed depression, I'm sorry Watcher. It seems there is more of a mental illness here.
I won't say anymore because I am no expert.
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Thunder, Yea after reading his last post giving more details I hate to write that to him but I had to be honest. It is much worse than MLC. I hope she finds her way back out of that depression. It's not impossible, it's just going to take more effort and work on her part more than his for her to get to a better place emotionally, mentally, and physically.
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Thanks Denjef,
Yes, I have realized that there was more than just MLC at play here. I did wonder how much her history with depression was contributing here. I had hoped that it was just MLC, but she did stop taking her meds at BD, so her clinical depression is also a factor I would think.
My MIL has reminded me that her daughter has always been sick. Her parents do view this as a continuation of her problems. They do not view this as an isolated incident. There's so much more that I can add but maybe it's better for me to save it for my thread.
Looking back she did exhibit a lot of this behavior throughout the marriage and for that matter even before the marriage, but things really exploded with the postpartum. So I have a major depressive disorder/clinically depressed W that is also having a MLC on top of it. My psychiatrist has always felt the same. I have some thinking to do as this does change the dynamic of our situation.
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Den ,i find your description of different mlcers interseting but my h seems to be a little of both.
My son came home from australia today .h asked if he could stop by. I said ya. I have such a sick feeling looknig at him now. I did ask him 2 questions .he answered and wouldnt even look at me. He has always looked at me . Now im freaking out thinknig he is up to something. Like did he move in with ow. What is it up to now? Kinda thing. Im hiding in my room right now. I told him i didmnt want to see him and he wasnt allowed to come here. When it comes to the kids i suppose that is alright. I have no idea if he is going out of town tomorrow. So i let him over. I guess i could have sad no . Figure out another time to see him but i didnt. I have such a mean feeling toward him now. First time i have felt like this when i see him. It is what it is !
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Watcher,
Yes you have a lot of thinking to do, as your main priority right now has got to be of yourself and most importantly those kids. Your wife deciding to not take her medication is very unfortunate as she can stay suspended in nothing land for quite some time. She really does need to be on a medication regimen determined by her doctor. What can you do if she wont take them? You are definitely in a precarious situation. Your wife's illness is not unique but it is something that is not talked about on this forum much if at all.
Even with medication your wife has a long haul ahead of her. I will be praying for you and your family. God has put this burden on you to bear for a reason. You sound like a very strong man, dedicated father, and husband. Somehow while the situation may seem bleak, something good will come out of this. My hope is that she will seek help and commit to getting better. Prayers to you!
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Keep Believing,
He possibly is up to something. They are always up to something in MLC. Understand that I recognize and understand why you are doing, feeling, and saying the things you are to your H. I want you to think for just one minute about why you told him to not come to the house anymore? Was that a boundary you set for yourself to minimize hurt or did you tell him that out of anger ?
If it's a boundary you feel you need to implement then say no more as sometimes you have to do that to protect yourself. If you did it out of anger it will backfire and the thing you are most worried about will definitely come to fruition. This is just my opinion and everybody got different ways to skin a cat. Do not push or force him out even out of anger then expect him to not run into the arms of the bimbo waiting in the wings pressuring him and inviting him into her bed full time.
Yes MLC'r can be a combination of what I described and they can also be monster/boomerang/vanisher etc 1 week and be all the way on the side of crazy the next. and that can change just as quickly. Nothing is off limits or certain. MLC is confusion...I love you I don't love you. I want you I don't want you. I want to work on our marriage to Its over we can never work out our marriage Im done! They leave for days no call no nothing, then they think about you and they come over pretending to be interested in fixing things around the house.
This is there way of keeping one foot in the door, making sure you don't move on. It causes utmost confusion for LBS, as we are told to not get our expectations up, and detach. Yet here my spouse is cutting grass, fixing that old plumbing problem we have had for months. Is he doing this because he misses me and wants to come home or is he doing this out of guilt and he wants to fix the place up so he can force me to sale the home? Cycling, Cycling, and more cycling.
The best thing you can do for yourself is zip your lips right now. Whatever you say its not going to alter his path. You will just get more frustrated by his lack of empathy or concern right now. Don't alienate him and make him feel like the contraption he is pursuing. It is very very hard to show love when you are not getting love in return. Not knowing if showing love will work, and we don't want to be made out to be or look like a fool. We want to maintain some dignity and some respect.
I get that I really do. I am not sure if you will get anything positive out of the course of action you have taken. Sometimes it is not about getting positive interaction with our spouse. Sometimes it is about controlling the bleeding and protecting our heart from further hurt. Whatever you do and decide just make sure it is for you and not to get a reaction out of him because it is not time for that yet. I will pm you tomorrow.
Den
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My Course of action is to give him everything he wants
His money his d and his freedom . I'm not going to have him hold these things over my head any more. He has controlled me with his money and this d . He knows I didn't want it so you all know how they play with that. If he wants it , I'm giving it to him. For me a d gives me there's son to let go of hope . I can't let go completely but for me a d wil help me heal . I didnt want it but he needs help
. He chose ow over me too many times . To me he made his decision . If I start a new relationship it might as well be with someone different than h then to have to feel the pain all over again to reconcile . I don't have that in me .
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Our brain to some extent allows us to not absorb how devious and hurtful we truly are so that we are able to look in the mirror, get dressed and do it all over again the next day. When we start looking in the mirror not liking what we see, expressing our shame and guilt to you, drinking and drugging everyday that is a coping mechanism. At that point we are 100% totally aware of your level of pain, we are hurting just as much but we don't know how to fix it, where to begin. Life seems to us as if we would rather run off, move far away so we wont hurt you anymore.
This is precisely why I have gone dark on my H. In May he was saying how he can't look in the mirror, how he knows I'll never believe he's sorry, how he's never felt "good enough," how he's not a good person. Then he moved 1000 miles away. I don't believe he moved far away so he wouldn't hurt me anymore. I believe he moved 1000 miles away because he wanted to be with OW and didn't give a flying f**k if I hurt anymore as long as he doesn't have to see it.
Then, there are some men and women in MLC who felt miserable in the marriage, they cant see how things could change for the better. They made a decision to end the marriage, they are confident and they are not turning back. Even if OW/OM relationship doesn't work out, they still feel they are better off without you. They will try to start a new life, new friends, new career, new home. They are establishing themselves without you. For some it will work and there will be no chance to work things out. For some they will feel confident in the decision to leave but after months, years go by and they are still stuck in the same rut, even worse than before they will change their mind and wonder if it is possible that you are still interested? Do you still care for them? So much time has passed now, there is no more arguing, guilting, pleading, begging and crying from you. You have accepted that the marriage is over and done.
Again, this is why I let go and am not communicating with him anymore. Initially he did say he was miserable in the marriage. It's complete rubbish because he was not miserable until he experienced the deaths of his grandparents and the sudden death of an old high school friend and started showing all the signs of MLC. But he must believe it was the marriage because he is "establishing himself without me." He's got a new career, new friends, a new home, new romantic partner...and so reading this makes me think that unless the new romantic partner turns into a crazy b*tch or he fails at his new career, he will never look back. Like he left me under false pretenses but since the new life is working out okay, that's it, I just lose out anyway. Which makes me think this whole MLC stuff is such complete bullsh*t and the only way an MLCer will ever turn back is if they fail in their new life or their affair partner dumps them.
They wont even think about those things until they feel the shift of energy. Until you shift your focus. They are comfortable in the fog. They are neither here nor there. They half exist in the euphorism of the fog.
I've never felt my H was feeling "euphoric" because he has expressed anxiety and depression and when he moved to be with OW, he talked about fearing the move would "put him in the ground." But he is where he is and seems to be set on staying. I haven't pursued him in a long time. I only contact him regarding legal questions. I moved away to a new state to start a new life of my own. His response was to have D papers drawn up and callously tell me that my beloved dog might not have much longer to live and insinuate that I don't care (even though he knows I've been hoping to have the dog come live with me). He felt the shift of energy from me and as with every single other time during this where he might have turned back toward me, he's chosen the new life and the OW. So I've chosen to live my life without contact with him, because there is nothing else I can do.
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Correction. Time to let go of hope
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Hi Denjef,
I have another question for you about handling MLC H. In my situation, H moved away 1000+ km in October 2015 and he comes to visit every 6-8 weeks, usually for a long weekend, to see D8. This time, he will be here for 8 days. When he is here (staying in my apartment), he usually prefers to do things as a family rather than with D8 alone. He tells me that he cries often because he is away from D8 and makes it sound as if our relationship was just a casual dating relationship, over which I need to get. He writes that he wants what's best for D8 but doesn't act like it at all (he moves away, breaks up our family, gets himself a pricey apartment and puts himself into a tough spot financially but now writes that he wants to visit more often, etc.). It's all about him, lots of replay behavior (one or two OWs, possiby dating others in addition). He sometimes says that he is sad about hurting me so much (but I don't feel it's really sincere) and that it must be tough for me to be a single parent (thanks, H, for making me one...). Also, he feels uncomfortable to come visit, claiming that he cannot sleep a week prior to coming (although he hasn't slept well for several years now, for various reasons according to him).
He told me recently that he is going to make himself available to OWs (although he's dated/had an OW for possibly close to a year).
So, my plan is to treat him friendly during his visit and to also launch a few truth darts (about a marriage not being like a casual dating relationship), kids suffering from the break-up of their family (if the topic comes up), and possibly also about morals, lying and cheating. I usually can deliver them quite calmly or slip them in during "normal" conversations. Do you think that truth darts are beneficial?
Another question I have: Since H and I have always liked doing about the same things, it's easy for me to come up with lots of activities that we could enjoy the three of us. On the other hand, I feel that he doesn't deserve me putting in a lot of effort to make our times together nice (since he has been claiming that he is only coming for D8 anyways). What is your take on that?
Looking forward to hearing from you when you get around to it.
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It is very very hard to show love when you are not getting love in return. Not knowing if showing love will work, and we don't want to be made out to be or look like a fool. We want to maintain some dignity and some respect.
This is so right on the money, Denjef.
I keep asking myself: Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy? For me, it comes back to trust and time. Standing is a marathon. Here's to hoping I don't die on the hill at Mile 23.
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Nassau,
You are angry, and your hurting. I pray that all LBS's find some peace, get their life back. Do you really think he moved 1000 miles away to be with OW if this was not eating him alive? Let me just be completely clear, a man or woman who just doesn't want to be in the marriage, they are done, they don't feel sh%t for you they just leave never looking back. They can live 2 blocks away from you and not give a flip about it. They can see you in the mall, at the store, restaurant and be completely removed and feel nothing!
They are very capable of calling you up to make arrangements for the kids, they don't stall on the divorce, they don't have a problem with being around you, they aren't running from you. They haven't abandon their responsibilities as a dad. They are capable of co-parenting. They are not confused about what they want and who they want. They make a decision and stick with it.
Your spouse did move away to start a new life yes, but he didn't have to move away to do it. He moved away because he cant bear to see you. The hurt and pain on your face. The thing is no matter where he moves, he knows what he did and it is still eating him up. At night when he is lying down and no where else to run this is when his conscious and morals attack him. He may never express that to you, but it is happening. There is and will be no peace for him until he rights his wrongs. Your H may choose to remain out of sight for years. Its also very possible you could get a call at any given time with him sobbing asking for your forgiveness. Nothing is certain.
Yes, in MLC which is about a depressed person seeking happiness instead of working on themselves internally, they run run run. A person that is choosing to do drugs for the high it gives them, they initially think they are in control they can stop any time they choose to. Eventually after time passes they know they have an addiction problem and they continue to get high or drink because they don't want to stop. At some point the addiction over powers them and they are completely aware this is addiction and they cant live without it and when a loved one tries to intervene they run. They are not ready to face the real work that is involved with getting clean, staying off the drugs, getting a job, and being an adult. That is the same scenario most MLC'er face. Stop the addiction, go home, and try to fix their messed up life or keep drug seeking and running.
You may think MLC is a bunch of BS because you don't understand it, you have never experienced it and I hope you never do. I use to wonder why my sister couldn't just stop doing drugs before she lost her kids, her home, her job, her life, her freedom everything down the toilet and life in shambles. Why would anybody give up everything they have worked so hard for a few moments of getting high? Yet it happens. They lose their teeth, holes in their face, serious health issues, life threatening events and they still will go back out to get high not knowing if that will be the last and they lose their lives. Tell me why anyone would voluntarily do that if addiction is not real?
Addiction and depression are intertwined in MLC. You are thinking about this from your perspective of a betrayed hurt spouse and none of that will help you.
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Sorry, denjef, I didn't express myself well in my post. When I said it makes me think MLC is bullsh*t, I meant the situation is bullsh*t, not that I don't believe in MLC. I very much believe in MLC and very much believe my H is having an MLC and didn't just fall in love with another woman.
Thank you for your response. Yes, I suppose I am angrier today. My H is refusing to continue honoring our financial agreement until I sign his D papers, which don't even list my correct address. And he wrote to me, "Even though you didn't ask I assume you do still care" and proceeded to tell me my beloved "baby," my dog is very sick and he might need to put him down.
That's what gets me angry, the situation for which there is no remedy. I move away to rebuild my shattered life and my H responds by rushing to have D papers drawn up and trying to insinuate I don't care about my dog, who I miss so much.
In the beginning, I tried to convince my H he was depressed. He never denied it but just ignored me. After I found out about OW, he admitted to anxiety and borrowed my books on depression. I knew at the time he was just trying to appease me to deflect from the fact that I found out about OW. But I still encouraged it because I thought at least maybe he might seek help for the depression. He kept my books, don't think he's ever read them.
And while living with OW, I don't see how he will face anything. What scared me about your post was the part I quoted, where they "establish themselves without you" and start a whole new life and if it works out they don't try to reconcile.
My H's OW is not crazy, doesn't need him for money or support - she's just an old girlfriend from 20-plus years ago who left her H for my H. Her H already has a new girlfriend so he's obviously not "standing." OW will cling to my H now because she can't go back to hers and as long as she keeps being nice to him and validating him, my H has no reason to look back. That's what I took from reading that - that he left me because in the height of his depressive thinking he felt he was not happy in our marriage. He might not even still believe that, but now he's living with OW and if she's not terrible and his new job is not terrible, he doesn't have to look back at me, even if he knows he hurt me. That's what I was calling bullsh*t, the unfairness of the fact that in the midst of MLC he left for a new life and even if he realizes his old life wasn't as bad as he made it out to be when he was in the fog of MLC, the only way he will leave the new life and look back towards me is if his new life falls apart. If it doesn't fall apart, then that's his new life and that's where he will stay.
I'm probably babbling here.
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Hi Denjef,
Thank you for all your posts. I know this must interfere with your own life and dealing with your situation, and I really appreciate your insight. I do have a question, you can answer me whenever you have time.
You said :
Yes, in MLC which is about a depressed person seeking happiness instead of working on themselves internally, they run run run.
My h has been doing this, but has also been trying to work on himself. He was attending IC, until the therapist went on medical leave. She is supposed to be back after New Year. H told me yesterday he's looking forward to talking w her again, so I know he's going to continue. He also said I could come with him if I want, but I don't have to. We had a really good conversation about his MLC (I didn't use those words but I have in the past, and the therapist told him that's what he is going through). We talked about his loneliness, and I told him I think it stems from him being unable to make himself happy, and that he would be lonely wherever or whoever he is with. He agreed. He has cut back his shows in January to only 5, he is a drummer by night (has a FT day job) and in December had 18 shows. He said he is keeping himself free for January. We talked about how he needs to spend some time working through his issues. He said he knows, but it hurts so bad. I replied, I understand, but you will need to find a way through this or you will just keep running forever. He agreed.
I know what I said was kind of dangerous but it had been on my mind a lot, and he was so open to talking yesterday that I went ahead and jumped in. So my question for you is, how do you perceive all of this? I still consider it a MLC but it sounds like he is really trying to find his way through it. I pray he has the strength to do it. I know it must be horribly tough and painful. Just so you know, BD was in September, 2nd one in October, he moved out in October. He said he had been unhappy since I was sick, 3 years ago. I know it's still so early. I'm trying not to get too hopeful but I can't help but think these are all positive steps.
At this point, I'm really not putting any pressure on him. I don't contact him unless I really have a need. I give him the time and space he needs. I feel like I'm doing a good job on getting on with my life. I don't know if there is anything else I should/could be doing but I am cautiously optimistic. Trying not to give myself any expectations or false hope.
Thanks again Denjaf. I feel like you've become our "guest columnist"...."Ask Denjaf!" lol
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Nassau,
Well sometimes I misinterpret what I read which it seems I have done that in your post by reading it a little too fast. I did also correctly interpret your anger. Who can blame any of you for the situation you have been forced to deal with by yourself? Certainly not me or anyone else as we are or have been in this very same situation of frustration.
Yes, it is very true sometimes they don't look back unless or until they have reason to look back. Selfish? Yes. No one said MLC was not selfish as this whole illness is truly about self loathing and self absorbency at the same time. No one wants to stop the party when the party is a blast. No one see's the error in their ways until they are forced to confront it. For many they will keep running until they cant run anymore. No longer being able to run is the equivalent of hitting rock bottom. Letting go of the ledge they have been holding on to all of this time to prevent looking at themselves.
Rock bottom can be many and different things depending on the issues within that the MLC is struggling with. OW/OM is one of many many things that an MLC can choose to self medicate. As difficult as this is in some cases, the MLC' er has to lose and destroy everything before rebuilding and/or starting over can begin. There is no right or wrong. No one can tell you how this will end or when it will end. Yes it sounds crazy to suggest you be kind and loving and essentially turn a blind eye to BS they are putting you through. Not speaking out and calling them out on their bad behavior, lies, manipulation, and mistreatment of you.
You can do that at anytime you choose. In fact most of us already have. We have argued and pleaded with them. Asked them to come home while in tears, asked them to stop hurting us, threatened them, threw them out the house, started divorce proceedings, informed family and friends they are cheating on you. Has any of that worked? No it hasn't or you wouldn't be here. Your tears equals manipulation and it is exactly the thing they run from. It fuels their behavior. It makes you less desirable and the OW/OM a better option.
So yes I am telling you to move on with your life for real! Give up on trying to reason with them, give up on thinking your tears, your pain, your hurt, your fears, will wake them up. It wont. Pity is not what any of us want. What I suggest and many others who have been where you are is not a game. It is not manipulation. It is only a manipulative game if the changes you make are only for him. It is only a game if you are not GAL for you, it is only a game if you are acting as if you are detaching but holding on silently to all that pain and hurt. Let go of all that and let go of him/her.
When you truly detach, when you truly GAL we are not able to hurt you anymore. The peace grows from within. Everything you do from that moment forward would and will be for you and that of your children. You are able and willing to accept whatever comes your way. Your strength and resolve is unbreakable. You will accept and know that you are fine with or without the marriage. Your thoughts will no longer be consumed about what your spouse is doing. We see the changes, we feel the shift, we either want to prevent that from happening or we don't. Some will be to self absorb to recognize the shift, to weak to do anything about it. So they do nothing.
Denjef31
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Denjef,
That makes so much sense that they are running away from the pain that they have caused us. I was in a divorce support group for about 10 months because my crazy mlc er wanted a divorce, go figure. :)
My sampling is only about 100 people. My story was the odd ball of the group and they all told me so. People who want to end a marriage, end a marriage. There were both initiators and non initiators in the group. Guess what, even the ones that hated each other, hammered out a settlement.
In other words there was no dragging of the feet. Done is really done. People who really want a divorce, really want to move on, and they make sure it happens like you said.
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I completely agree with that. My H didn't even remember telling me he wanted a divorce way back in July of 2015.
When he was moving 1000 miles away to live with OW, I asked, "Why didn't you just divorce me?"
He looked down at his feet, his shoulders completely dropped and he just said, "I don't know. "
Makes me wonder though, when they drag their feet for however long, what changes that makes them finally move forward. When my H found out I was moving, he quickly had D papers drafted and signed them. Went through the trouble of finding a notary public and signing page after page and mailing them back.
Just makes me wonder what made him so "sure" in that moment that he took such decisive action when he had been so blatantly avoiding it up until then.
Another unanswerable MLC question.
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Stillluvhim,
You threw a few truth darts, that is all for now you need to do. We would like to help our spouse come thru the tunnel but we cant. He must do this all on his own and for himself.
Pray that god reveals to your H things he needs to see and hear. Pray that god guides his footsteps out of the darkness and into the light. Pray that God reveals to your H the true nature of the OW. Pray that god shows your H that you are his true soulmate. While you are praying you need to take your focus off your H and zip your lips while god works on him. That is the honest truth.
Action means inaction by you.
Denjef31
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Denjef, I am curious how MLCer feels toward his/her children.
My MLC-H has from the beginning been extremely aggressive about sharing our son. He at times makes it hard for me to see him and uses him to hurt me.
At the same time, when he does have him, he is not in tune with his needs. They just hang out with OW. He doesn't plan things for him.
He has crossed a lot of lines in my opinion but has not done anything that a court can say he should not have shared custody.
What do you think a LBS spouse should do in this situation and in regards to the kids? If I fight then I become the "enemy" and he won't be self reflective. But I feel I am failing my son sometimes (many times).
Your insights are invaluable and I would love to hear about this topic. Thank you for all your posts.
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DenJef, you posts are absolutely invaluable, but yet, they are so hard to follow. I know we are supposed to detach, but here I was again tonight following my husband out to the car saying why do you have to leave? I had dinner cooking, candles burning. Really?
I just remembered an interesting thing this morning. My H gives me a kiss when he leaves each morning. His comment was a little different this morning. He said, I know you don't care but I love you, and he walked away.
His usual is whether you want to hear it or not, I love you. I used to get so frustrated and say he was wasting his breath because words meant nothing. This morning was different. So I yelled over the banister. I said you know what? I do care. I love you, but you are the one that doesn't care, and he walked out without saying a word.
I guess I am just frustrated again:(
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Your wife's illness is not unique but it is something that is not talked about on this forum much if at all.
If by Watcher's wife illness you mean depression, we have always talked about depression on the board, and still do. Of all types of depression, clinical, post-partum, situational, MLC, bipolar (a type of depression with two poles, a manic and a depressive one), etc.
We have several threads on depression:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8495.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1646.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4550.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=23.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=307.0
Depression is also talked about on the Links/blogs/articles for us all to share threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7723.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7143.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1231.0
as well as on the Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7709.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6315.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0
Depression is also mentioned in several personal story threads. And it has always been. Current members that often post about their depression and PTSD include Barbiedoll and My Brain is Broken.
Many of mine older threads, especially the ones around the time I was taking courses on Coursera on neuroscience/neurobiology are full of posts about depression, bipolar as well as the differences between them and the difference between mood and personality disorder.
Ready2's threads also cover a lot of ground on those fields.
Checking Shantily Lace/Hope Floats old threads and post will also offer a good view on depression.
The fact that a person suffers from depression or bipolar does not mean a person cannot add MLC to their existing illness. Old Pilot's mother is bipolar and has had a MLC.
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Anjae, do you mind posting the direct links to your threads on neurobiology? I would love to read.
Thank you for posting all of this!
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denjef,
I so agree with stillluvhim, you are putting yourself out there for so many people when you have so much going on yourself. You are truly an amazing person with a talent for helping people.
All the questions you are asked have been, not only answered with patience but with caring and real insight. You make yourself so accessible. I don't know how you do it.
I salute you as one of the biggest asset Hero's Spouse has ever had.
Just wish I had a question. lol
Take care of yourself.
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Ditto
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Thank you Denjaf. I will absolutely follow your advice. You're so right, this is his crisis, not mine.
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I agree with Thunder ... DenJef, I don't know how you do it with your busy schedule. You are such an asset to this site, it is unreal. You have knowledge from both sides of the story and we all want your version so bad and it has to be so much pressure for you to read everyone's post and offer your advice.
Bottom line, we all want to hear positive feedback and are looking for you to be a magician, and unfortunately, you are not. You are a human being, just like we are, and can only offer firsthand knowledge of what you actually went through, which is invaluable. This is information that is to be treasured.
I only wish I didn't have the jealousy attached to this. I wish I could rise above my H being with the OW every night and see the anguish he is going through every night. This is by far the hardest thing I have had to go through in my life.
Having gone through this yourself, does this give your more patience with your H than us average LBSes who don't know what our MLCer is going through? Also, are you able to discuss things with your MLCer because you can relate with him what he is going through? My H and I have NO COMMUNICATION AT ALL. NONE.
THANKS, DEN JEF. WE APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR INPUT.
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Your wife's illness is not unique but it is something that is not talked about on this forum much if at all.
If by Watcher's wife illness you mean depression, we have always talked about depression on the board, and still do. Of all types of depression, clinical, post-partum, situational, MLC, bipolar (a type of depression with two poles, a manic and a depressive one), etc.
We have several threads on depression:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8495.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1646.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4550.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=23.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=307.0
Depression is also talked about on the Links/blogs/articles for us all to share threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7723.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7143.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1231.0
as well as on the Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research threads:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7709.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6315.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0
Depression is also mentioned in several personal story threads. And it has always been. Current members that often post about their depression and PTSD include Barbiedoll and My Brain is Broken.
Many of mine older threads, especially the ones around the time I was taking courses on Coursera on neuroscience/neurobiology are full of posts about depression, bipolar as well as the differences between them and the difference between mood and personality disorder.
Ready2's threads also cover a lot of ground on those fields.
Checking Shantily Lace/Hope Floats old threads and post will also offer a good view on depression.
The fact that a person suffers from depression or bipolar does not mean a person cannot add MLC to their existing illness. Old Pilot's mother is bipolar and has had a MLC.
Anjae,
Hmm here we go again. I never implied that a person who is bipolar or suffering a mood disorder or major depressive disorder cant mutually exist with MLC. I was only telling Watcher that his wife illness was more than just MLC. I have read some of those articles you posted when I first came to this board. I am aware of those and I realize it is discussed but hardly when you compare the number of threads and discussions that are posted daily about MLC.
Done here goodnite
Denjef31
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Good night, den.
Tomorrow is another day. ::)
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Den, i agree with thunder with all your time and patience. Thank . I do beleive you are helping me through this.
Funny though , i do bleive h iknows im moving on. Not completely . but just about done. Things have changed a bit with him cant quite explain. But im not sure if its good or bad. The way he talks makes it sound like he has ade the decision to stay gone and be done. Im ok with that at least there could be an answer on his part. I know i dont need h. What gets me about all this that makes me sad is im lonely. ( yes i go out and have peeps) it having no companion at the presemt moment. And its been too long.
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Thunder,
Thank you. I do want to give you a sincere shout out for being such a positive person on this board for so so so many people. Every time I read a post from you, you have always come from a position of being real, but also being kind and respectful that people are hurting. Your advice is the truth but kind. It is I and so many others should be thanking you for the wonderful contribution you give to this forum. There are a lot of others who display this same kindness and well I just got up this morning thinking about some post I read and you were in them and I noticed this same pattern of kindness in all of them.
I do feel much better today after I got some rest. Thanks again!
Denjef31
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Agreed again, Thunder! You are always one of the first friendly welcomes to newbies and you have been with me on my journey since day one. ;)
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I was thinking the same thing last night. Thanks Thunder.
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Oh my gosh, thank you, guys. I am no better than anyone else on here but I appreciate your kind words. :)
I think everyone contributes so much of themselves on here. I love seeing newbies gain enough strength to start helping others. That's what this site is all about.
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Hate to pile on with the "me too" posts, but I'm gonna...
That is one thing I too have noticed about you Thunder-You are consistently friendly. I for one appreciate that VERY much.
We are all different, and respond to things in different ways. While honesty is the best policy, and avoiding conflict to maintain the peace is bad, I personally believe there is a fine line between "BRUTAL honesty" and being "rude". Even after this nasty MLC business, I STILL haven't developed thick enough skin. So be it. Its who I am, and I'm quite proud of that. While I appreciate honesty, it can be delivered without sugar-coating in a compassionate friendly manner. <---That is YOU. I avoid threads where the "tone" goes a little over the top. Conflict avoidance? No. A choice.
-T
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Oh T, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Now enough about me. We're all special. right? :)
I do agree, though. I try to stay off negative threads. Fortunately, we don't have many.
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Denjef
I have been reading along since your last thread and I would also like to thank you.
I have days I doubt my xH MLC and then I read something you have written to someone else and it just gives me a little bit of hope which at 51/2 years since BD is fading fast.
I think one of the biggest things that keeps me believeing is exactly what you said that people divorce all the time but there x's communicate, co parent, make kids arrangements, take on their parental responsibilities.......my xH took me to court for contact every other weekend.....it doesn't happen. If I ever see him which is rarely he scurries off like a naughty child and can't even look at me. xH has often said he thinks about us every day and cries all the time......not sure about that now he has OW.
My xH initiated D 6 months after BD but did nothing until I forced the issue at 4 years because he lost his job and threatened to stop paying the mortgage and I needed to protect myself financially . I truly believe we would still be married otherwise.
You said MLCers need to lose and destroy everything before rebuilding/starting over. My SIL said last week she doesn't believe my xH has felt that "total loss" yet as he knows I'm still here waiting when it all goes wrong for him. I'm not sure how to detach more than I am. I bring up our children alone, work full time, own my own home, have my own business, went on holiday in October without the children, go out socialising occasionally......not sure what else I can do.
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Denj, HS is a site/board for MLC and people dealing with a spouse in MLC. It is normal and logic that most threads are about MLC.
Velika, I don't know exactly where in my threads there is neuroscience. They tend to be a mix of my story, physics, astrobiology, fillm, classics, poetry, neuroscience/neurobiology and meditation.
If you want you can give these a read:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3042.0 - On the Road to Ithaka I meet a NeuroQuantum Scientist
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3258.0 - From Europa to Titan, I'll go to the Movie Theater
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3339.0 - Technicolor and Sound are Wonder, Silent and Black & White Detail
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3476.0 - Pulp Fiction From Dusk Till Dawn or Reality is Stranger Than Fiction
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3616.0 - To the Wonder, Side Effects Behind the Candelabra
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3850.0 - Only God Forgives? Soul Searching in a Time-Space Continuous
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4567.0 - A Time to Live and Grow on My Way to Paradise
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5332.0 - Gliding Towards the Future, More Neuroscience and Some Laughs
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5756.0 - Towards the Launching Pad 10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0… Lifted
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6640.0 - Happiness is Good for Your Neurons and Puts a Smile on Your Face
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8002.0 - Still Meditating and Swimming in Neuroscience
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I think we were posting a lot more of the neuro and disorder-oriented things in our threads circa late 2012-2014, prior to having dedicated threads for it. It was easier to not get the opposition that way, honestly. We're outliers amongst outliers! ;) And I am not complaining, because I know the urge I have now sometimes to quell someone's fears that there spouse is having more than an MLC. Given that we are "diagnosing" only through the anecdotal evidence of the observer, not the observed, I know it's always debatable (even when that debate gets us nowhere). I don't like saying MLC absolutely can't be treated, because that's not always true; take Smitty's H, for instance, who responded positively to testosterone treatment. Or barbiedoll's husband who is uncovering his shadow self in talk therapy. Or those of them that DO respond well to anti-depressants. Mine tried them and it made him manic, lending credence to his original bipolar diagnosis, but that still is something I can't say with 100% certainty is the case. It helps me to understand these things and I continue to be fascinated by it, but I do finally accept that none of my learning can cure my spouse. But the learning still has value for my healing.
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Ready,
I believe my H could have been helped with testosterone treatments because I think his crisis was more hormonal than anything.
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Chiming in here.
A little off topic, I agree with TNT here about Thunder, you do have a way of soothing conflicts on these threads. Thanks for being the one that brings all back to seeing we're all in the same boat. The fact that you are the one that reminds us that we need to sometimes take a step back makes you a true gem on this forum. Thank you for being the loving, nurturer. :)
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Den, i hope you can answer this , or maybe it is scprit too,
Question 1) Sometimes when i talk to h he will ask me , do you expect me to just come home and be like hi honey im home. Sometimes i have said yes and sometimes i have said no. If i say no he is quiet , if i say yes he laughs and says im crazy. Any insight to this? Question 2) Is there ever a time if your h gave you an ultimatum how you would have responded?
Question3)Also ,i think you said something about if your h would call you ,that you were happy to hear from him. Well if you liked talking to him ,how come you wouldnt call him?
And sorry but i have asked this a couple times , maybe you answered it and i missed it. But what is your opinion about the om now? Do you even like him? Did you go through the withdrawal of him ? Thank you so much for your time
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KB,
Your H said that or shall I say asked you that question because he see the marriage as having serious problems that will not be resolved over night if ever in his mind. He believes that coming home is just the tip of the iceberg and it doesn't address anything. He believes whatever issues you have is the reason he left and not the OW. He may have some validity to that and maybe he doesn't, problem is he believes he does.
What other issues besides his career does he have a problem with that you are aware of? What have you done to resolve those? My H sort of did give me ultimatums but I never cared or worried about them as I knew deep down he was not strong enough to stick to it. He would say things like "we either going to work on this marriage or I am done." and he would also say things like "If I don't want him let him go so he can move on." I never would respond because I didn't want to give him any hope but I also knew I wasn't going to let him go either. I kept stringing him along until he got off the rollercoaster ride I was giving him.
I see OM occasionally but I had to change my number recently, as he would still call or text from time to time trying to reminisce or perhaps trying to see if he had any chance with me. I like OM as a person, but as mate? No. At the time I was dealing with my depression I adored the OM, I thought he was the missing link! He could give me everything I was missing in my life. Yes I did go through withdrawals. I ended it and still went through withdrawals. I had some real feelings for him but they were not love so I was sad about breaking it off. I actually broke it off with him last July or August 2015. I was finally okay and not sad about it anymore probably in November.
I didn't call my H because I knew what he wanted and I was not ready to give him what he wanted if ever at that point. I felt guilt talking to him, I could hear he was sad, I knew he felt lonely, and hoping for something anything to hold on to. I didn't want to lead him on, but I wanted him to wait. So basically I didn't want to imply he should wait, or ask him to wait I wanted him to wait on his own. Just a very selfish time. I was pushing him away but secretly hoping he would stay put.
Denjef31
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Well den , I have changed everything that he didn't like about me.
But I didn't like about myself. I think maybe either he is holding on to resentments or he is not sure if he could quit drinking . I also believe he thinks I would not be able to let go of the past . In the messege to responded by email. Is it possible he was giving me his check because of coming back some day ? Funny the things you told me to tell h is what I did tell him. I'm not sure of when h might bottom out but I know his mother doesn't know what to do about his behavior anymore . She told me this. I told her I gave him his money so he. Could get his apt. Or I said why doesn't he move in with ow . Also this job he has he is supposed to stop traveling . It was supposed to be in July then nov but yet still traveling. Something has to change soon I would think . Regardless of him hitting his bottom. Either his parents , not traveling and get more invoke executive with ow or she must be getting tired of his bull$h!te too . So many different direction s with him , I would think he would have to employs from that but who knows . Thanks for your input and anymore you could share . Are you saying my h is double sided because he has his parents and ow ?
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This is something I'm dealing with myself. H days what do want from me , to come home.
I just found out that he has been involved with a married woman at work. I know believe this has been the entire time after bd. maybe before. Or entertaining the idea.
He went from crazy behavior to depressed behavior. Done drugs and been a complete monster. Projection from day one.
Now he claims he's in love. Finally admitted it to me after I had proof.
What an affair down. He told me before he had cheated with a late twenties early thirties attractive person. Omg no. Older than me. Wrinkled and not attractive at all. It's crazy to me. Why make that up ?
How do you feel when they are older and not attractive ? My h has mayjie self esteem issues. Said I did that to him. He too blames the marriage failure on me. Absolutely nothing to do with ow he says.
Today he is acting like he never admitted anything to me. He's saying there is nothing to end. Nothing is going on. I was very angry. I mean I've been put through hell this year and told lie after lie. Been called names and abandoned along with my kids.
Does he love her ? I mean did you believe you loved om? My husband aggressively kept sleeping with me.
How can he be in love ?
He filed for divorce but never served me. Found out ow filed two months before. He denied he filed.
I think he was pushed into it.
Today he was so bizarre saying you have no proof. Nothing happened. Nothing to end because nothing is going on. In a weird voice. After admitting everything in a depressed state two days ago.
What the hell is this. He will get fired if found out. If I go to his boss. Because he's the manager.
A part of me wants him to get fired. So they can't be together. He's not giving me money anyway.
He told me I was crazy today. At times he's erased stuff in his phone in front of me. Then told me I didn't see anything.
I think he's ill. I don't think I can stand at this point. How do you when he's telling me I'm crazy.
Do I out him to everyone? Make him have consequences. He's a coward. The way he's handled our kids and I.
All I did was apologize for what he says I did. Neglect him . Hurt his self esteem. He has a drug issue too.
How the hell do I know who's talking ?
Today I don't know if it damage control. He thought I was recording him ?
I think it's more of the same pathological lying . Thinking if he says it it's true ?
Any help here is appreciated.
We will end up divorced because he's not giving money. And I think ow is pushing. When will he wake up.
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She just changed her profile picture on Pinterest to a sarcastic b face. I can see she knows I know. It's been the same for a year.
Guess she's going to be really nasty.
I can feel it.
How could he bring this poison in our lives. We had a beautiful love story.
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Den, Did you hit a bottom? What happened and what was it like?
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Den,
You have said that once your h had let go of the rope, you started coming out of the fog or something like that. I feel like i have. We went from christmas 2015 until august 7 2016 without seeing each other and not much contact in between. When he insisted on a face to face in augusthe told me he wasnt happy, didnt desire the ow and wanted to work on us. He also said that if he felt any tremors between us he would run. We saw each other a few times during that month. He talked about him having a friendship with the ow. Claiming that we never had that in our marriage. I asked him what a fr I end was to him and he gave a vague answer. I told him that being friends in marriage is different rhan being just friends with someone. He said he wanted a best fr I end. When he went on fb and started to connect with old friends, every person he ralked about was his best friend. Exxept for me. He was obsessed with it. The last time i seen him on sept.5 he said i would have divorce papers in 2 weeks. Two hours later he said he didnt know what he wanted. I have heard it gets worse before it gets better and it has gotton worse. He has completely abandoned the kids in every way possible. My daughter called him in november to tell him she was cutting herself and he didnt care. No empathy in his voice. He still has not called to check on her. I have once again have had no contact with in almost 5 months. What does all this mean?
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KB,
Rock bottom is a place no MLC wants to go. We have exhausted all possibilities at that point. We have used up everyone we possibly can and we have run as far as we can...this is the end of the road. Nowhere else to turn, no where else to hide. Thats when we see the situation for what it is. No more blaming someone else for our problems. We finally take a good long look in the mirror and see our true ugliness, the hurt and pain we have caused. It sickens most of us to the point of self hate. I felt I had no one I could turn to anymore, no one who would listen, and no one who truly understood me. Lightbulb went off that self pity would get me nowhere so I started to think about my life, my choices, what I wanted my life to look like in the future. I cried and cried until I couldnt cry anymore. This went on for sometime, then one day I forced myself to get up and I slowly started putting my life back together. Slowly started rebuilding friendships, family relationships, the kids, and finally I had to deal with H.
I was most afraid to rebuild with him because I hurt him the most. I didnt want to rebuild only to run again. Also afraid of his rejection, afraid he would be unwilling to forgive me. Coming to him (eventually)was the hardest thing because it forced me to be really naked emotionally and finally verbally admit my faults. I pretty much lost everything mentally and emotionally, but I was barely hanging on to physically.
Denjef31
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Bluerose,
I am sorry you and your kids are going thru this. From my perspective, your H is still running. He is afraid to let you go that is why he keeps checking on you, saying things to give you hope that he is done but he isnt. You are still dealing with a very confused man...that's the MLC. All of this is script. He do but he dont, he love you but not inlove with you, he wants a divorce but he doesnt do anything to really obtain one, he is a loving committed father and husband, yet he doesnt take any real interest in you or the kids. Script Script Script!!! He means those things at the time he says them but many things alter a MLC'er on their current course. OW pull is still too strong, he has not progressed far enough in the tunnel to resist it yet.
Best thing you can do and forgive me I hate regurgitating the dreaded words but it is DETACH! You can do nothing for him, he cant do anything for himself yet. Most of the work needed here are internally and he must do it. Step aside and focus on your kids as they need you more than he needs you. I had to do the same thing. Very painful to let go but when you finally arrive to the other side of this thing you will understand why. Some days he will sound clear headed and like the man you use to know. This can and will change quickly as he runs back into the darkness. I would stay away for now as your child cutting himself is a cry for help and unfortunately your H has his own cry for help and unable to be of help to anyone right now.
He is very much aware, but the true seriousness of what is going on has not sunk in yet. Remember that, you will hear him in awe of things later that he has done so please try to remember that.
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Denjef,
I know it's been said so many times, but you are such an inspiration to all of us here. I know at least I hang on to every word you say with such hope that my husband will some day come out of his fog. I guess we could all go on and on with our situation and ask for your advice, but since you are not a mind reader and you don't have a crystal ball, it sounds to me like you are saying that all we can really do is detach and hope that they will hit their rock bottom, wake up and come back to reality a better person. Is that right?
I mean, I would love to tell you my story and wish you could give me the magic answer. Yes, I had a fairytale marriage that I thought would only have the usual ups and downs that every marriage has. In a million years. I would never have thought "we" would be "that" couple! Well, here we are.
I guess I'm rambling now. It's been four years for me. I never thought I'd last this long and here I am, still standing and it doesn't seem to be getting any better :'( :'(
Funny thing and then I'll stop rambling. My H is in law enforcement. He said something humorous the other day. He said: "I treat people how they treat me. Treat me with respect, I will treat you back with respect." I wanted to laugh out loud. He is telling me that!! I have learned. I didn't even respond ::) ::)
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Thank you so much. I think i already knew what you were going to say before i read it. Thank you.
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He is very much aware, but the true seriousness of what is going on has not sunk in yet.
You've said this before and I'm very glad you bring it up.
I think it's really important to remember that they are not completely insane and unaware of their behavior.
To me, it seems more like a compulsion to continue and they just cannot stop themselves.
Some MLCers I've read about in recent threads seem to verbalize this. One recent thread, someone said their MLC H said "Let me make this mistake."
To me that speaks volumes.
My own H said before he moved away that he had to do it "if it puts me in the ground."
I don't think I ever will truly understand feeling that compelled to do something. I imagine you can't fully understand it unless you experience it firsthand.
As for rock bottom, thank you so much for giving your view of it.
It is a concept that scares me because I have wondered if my H will ever hit it.
I sometimes think if his new life is not amazing but also not terrible, but just kind of "okay," he will just continue on and on and never hit bottom.
Yes, he will have the guilt of what he's done to me and how he's treated me, because he knows it's not right, but if nothing blows up his current life he could go on for the rest of his life just stuffing down his guilt and compartmentalizing.
That is the reason I have moved away and am building my own new life. I have to because the life we had together is completely gone. H blew it to bits in order to create his own new life. If he hits rock bottom and looks back, he will see just a pile of rubble where our life used to be.
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He is very much aware, but the true seriousness of what is going on has not sunk in yet.
You've said this before and I'm very glad you bring it up.
I think it's really important to remember that they are not completely insane and unaware of their behavior.
To me, it seems more like a compulsion to continue and they just cannot stop themselves.
Some MLCers I've read about in recent threads seem to verbalize this. One recent thread, someone said their MLC H said "Let me make this mistake."
To me that speaks volumes.
My own H said before he moved away that he had to do it "if it puts me in the ground."
<...snip...>
The line I got at BD was "I know this is the worst mistake of my life and I will never find a man as good to me as you are but I have no choice...."
If I remember correctly I think my reply at the time was that I didn't see anyone holding a gun to her head... Probably NOT the most helpful but in the middle of BD I wasn't too concerned about being helpful...
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Thank you for the response . My h has a job where he can keep running . It takes him out of town . Comes in town on the weekends . I don't know how much longer he can do this . He said he was done traveling in July then nov but he is still going . I think maybe when he is in town some reality might set in . He said he was tired of running but he is still going
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I guess my question to everyone is do your spouses seem even slightly happy when you have contact with them or if they talk about the OP? My H just will not talk to me but he seems so depressed. My daughter and I agree that we absolutely do not believe he can leave our house and turn around and suddenly be happy. We just don't see that.
I think he runs and hides to a place where he can just be in oblivion. I think maybe in the beginning it may have been fun, going places and doing things, but at this point, I really think he is just a total functioning alcoholic who doesn't know who he's become. All he asks me to do is pray for him.
Other people on this post seem to say their spouse says they are happy with the OP and they even throw it in their spouse's face, saying they should never have gotten married, et cetera.
Like I said on my post today, I'm having a very bad day today. It's H's day off today and he's usually home by 5 a.m. sleeping on the couch for the day. I called D and she said he hasn't gotten home yet :'( :'(
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KB,
Rock bottom is a place no MLC wants to go. We have exhausted all possibilities at that point. We have used up everyone we possibly can and we have run as far as we can...this is the end of the road. Nowhere else to turn, no where else to hide. Thats when we see the situation for what it is. No more blaming someone else for our problems. We finally take a good long look in the mirror and see our true ugliness, the hurt and pain we have caused. It sickens most of us to the point of self hate. I felt I had no one I could turn to anymore, no one who would listen, and no one who truly understood me. Lightbulb went off that self pity would get me nowhere so I started to think about my life, my choices, what I wanted my life to look like in the future. I cried and cried until I couldnt cry anymore. This went on for sometime, then one day I forced myself to get up and I slowly started putting my life back together. Slowly started rebuilding friendships, family relationships, the kids, and finally I had to deal with H.
I was most afraid to rebuild with him because I hurt him the most. I didnt want to rebuild only to run again. Also afraid of his rejection, afraid he would be unwilling to forgive me. Coming to him (eventually)was the hardest thing because it forced me to be really naked emotionally and finally verbally admit my faults. I pretty much lost everything mentally and emotionally, but I was barely hanging on to physically.
Denjef31
Now that's true maturity, and growth.
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As for rock bottom, thank you so much for giving your view of it.
It is a concept that scares me because I have wondered if my H will ever hit it.
I sometimes think if his new life is not amazing but also not terrible, but just kind of "okay," he will just continue on and on and never hit bottom.
Yes, he will have the guilt of what he's done to me and how he's treated me, because he knows it's not right, but if nothing blows up his current life he could go on for the rest of his life just stuffing down his guilt and compartmentalizing.
Nassau - that's exactly how I think my exH will live the rest of his life.
I hope you found some joy and peace for Christmas. All the boxes unpacked and does it look like home? My best to you, cyber buddy.
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Den , I another post you said my h has along way to go considering he has enablers(his parents and ow) what is a long time? I know you can't really giveatimeframe but I'm. Curious as how you predict this. You know I'm talking d and I can't do this anymore but if there could be a promise my h would turn toward me in the next month then maybe I could wait.
Since I set boundaries. That he can't come to the house because he is with ow we met for coffee once then he grabbed my butt. I of course yelled at him after because I found out he was out of town with ow again . So became lose to me the. Ran again I reacted. Do you think if didn't react to him being with ow . He would be farther out of the tunnel. ?
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For the most part if my h and I talk it's cordial. H seems to like it . But I have to call him . But when I find out h is with ow he is a monster . So angry . This seems more recent . H thinks he's hiding it . But says he has nothing to hide . On Christmas I called him about a gift he was to get the kids . I could tell he wanted to ask me things but changed it to something about the kids.as we were hanging up h thrpugh in there. Merry Christmas . I said it back but of course this made me happy .he cared a little . Ya know?
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Hi KB,
I know this was directed at den, I hope you don't mind me giving you an answer.
I don't honestly see a month as a very long time in MLC Land. I know from every little improvement in my H every little step he took, took forever. I could S L O W L Y see it happening. If it happens with your H you probably won't see it for some time.
If I could just suggest 2 things.
Number one I would not be the pursuer. Let him contact you no matter how long it takes. It's hard but in means more if it comes from him. Let him miss you a little and wonder why you are not calling him.
Number two, I wouldn't even mention ow. Even if you know and he thinks he's fooling you. He's not.
He is going to have to see for himself what a ding dong she is, and he will. By bringing her up you only ruin a nice time you're having with him. He will walk away feeling good inside about your connection.
He will not go home angry, he will go home thinking about what a nice time he had with you.
Ok, I'll let den answer your question. I just wanted to give you my opinion, for what it's worth. :)
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Hi KB,
I know this was directed at den, I hope you don't mind me giving you an answer.
I don't honestly see a month as a very long time in MLC Land. I know from every little improvement in my H every little step he took, took forever. I could S L O W L Y see it happening. If it happens with your H you probably won't see it for some time.
If I could just suggest 2 things.
Number one I would not be the pursuer. Let him contact you no matter how long it takes. It's hard but in means more if it comes from him. Let him miss you a little and wonder why you are not calling him.
Number two, I wouldn't even mention ow. Even if you know and he thinks he's fooling you. He's not.
He is going to have to see for himself what a ding dong she is, and he will. By bringing her up you only ruin a nice time you're having with him. He will walk away feeling good inside about your connection.
He will not go home angry, he will go home thinking about what a nice time he had with you.
Ok, I'll let den answer your question. I just wanted to give you my opinion, for what it's worth. :)
I wholeheartedly second everything Thunder wrote above. This process is a marathon and the pace is S L O W. Ultimately you will decide when/if you'll finish the race.
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Den the confusing part to me is this ,
You felt like you were losing your h. Is that when you decided to look at yourself and hit bottom? Which came first i suppose. Stayeds husnabd said the same thing. Is was afriad of losing her and that made him wake up but the wholetime he knew he could keep going as long as the anchor is there. You the same . So it seriously takes the fear of losing them to change. Is this my understaanding ? Like you know you are wrong but you do it anyway . You push the lbs away but yet want then there to wait. I cant comprehend that.
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Keep believing l Like you know you are wrong but you do it anyway . You push the lbs away but yet want then there to wait.
That is the part that I can't wrap my head around either. My W has hinted at the same feeling, she knows that she is wrong in what she is doing but continues on with the whole affair.
I have been NC since the 24th and she hasn't contacted me since Christmas morning, but I ignored her, don't know if she is pissed about it or what but I do know that she has tried D several times.
I'm just kind of tired of playing this game with her, you tell me that you don't want me but you can't let go either, it is just one big game and I for one am sick of playing, I don't like sharing her with OM and I won't, time to really detach.
The sad thing is that part of me can't remember her here anymore, I guess that is good???
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In response to the rock bottom. Yes some of our spouses will never hit rock bottom because they will continue to run from it. Some spouses are not happy and they are not miserable so you think they will never hit rock bottom. What makes a person happy? Rock bottom doesn't have to come because the end of a relationship. Many things can influence rock bottom. I had a high paying job, a nice home, a H who I knew still loved and wanted to be with me, great kids, and OM who wanted to be with me. I still hit rock bottom!
Rock bottom for me was not about OM, it was about my own sh$t internally that I still did not address. I was running, and running as far and as fast as my little legs could carry me, withdrawing from my true family but I was still not happy. If you saw me I looked like the life of the party, drinking, smiling, laughing, joking around, on the go. Going on nice vacations, posting pics on FB, the socialite. All of that was a façade...BS!!!!
When I went home and I was finally alone to myself, my thoughts would flood in. I would take ambien, or clonazepam trying to go to sleep I didn't want to think. I escaped it for as long as I possibly could. I had it all or so it seemed. None of the things and people I was around truly made me happy, but I tried so hard to make it work. I tried hard to make this new life feel right but it never did. My old life was in the shadows and I was still drawn to it. I couldn't totally forget or give up that life. So I held on to it secretly.
What most of you are dealing with is a spouse who cant explain why they feel the way they feel, some are trying to figure it out themselves but they have no answers. They just feel a strong pull to seek whatever it is that is out there. You are seeking answers because you are hurting, they are seeking answers because they are mentally confused and torn. I had my rock bottom almost the same time I noticed H pulling away. Maybe I felt it intuitively before anything else. It was like waking up and the damn house is on fire! I woke up to freaking chaos around me. My life, marriage, relationships were all in shambles and I had no idea how bad it was until that very moment.
Yes I knew I was not returning calls, absent from family events, not spending quality time with the kids, ignored and abandon my H, but I just didn't know the depths of what I was doing until then. So it becomes a time of trying to fix things. The awareness that I was losing H happened around the same time I was coming out of the fog. That's the only reason I was able to recognize and start trying to fix it.
Remember when we are in the fog we don't really care too much what you do. We throw breadcrumbs to keep you right where you are, we in fact usually encourage you to move on go find someone to be happy with. All of this is script because deep down we really don't want that to happen but we say this to relieve our guilt so we can say we told you to move on. When in reality we say that because we are so confident that you love us that you will not move on and we are free then to continue doing what we are doing.
Denjef31
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Thank you for this, denjef. As always, your description of what it's like on the other side is so incredibly helpful.
Remember when we are in the fog we don't really care too much what you do. We throw breadcrumbs to keep you right where you are, we in fact usually encourage you to move on go find someone to be happy with. All of this is script because deep down we really don't want that to happen but we say this to relieve our guilt so we can say we told you to move on. When in reality we say that because we are so confident that you love us that you will not move on and we are free then to continue doing what we are doing.
My H has never told me to find someone else, even though he's run so far away from me and has never once wavered from saying he doesn't love me and he acts like he's not the least bit attracted to me.
When I found out about OW, I asked H how he would feel about me being with another man. He hunched over and said, "I wouldn't like it." Then he went into the bathroom and when he came out his eyes were bloodshot.
A few months later, when he told me he was moving 1000 miles away to be with OW, he also told me that OW's husband (from whom she had separated) has a new girlfriend. I asked him why he, OW and OW's husband all have someone to spend time with and yet he had been stringing me along for a year at that point. I asked him why I was the only one who wasn't totally free to find someone. (I know in reality I was. I could do whatever I wanted. He was throwing crumbs but I didn't have to accept them.)
He didn't have a response for me - he just looked away and his eyes filled with tears.
Rock bottom for me was not about OM, it was about my own sh$t internally that I still did not address. I was running, and running as far and as fast as my little legs could carry me, withdrawing from my true family but I was still not happy. If you saw me I looked like the life of the party, drinking, smiling, laughing, joking around, on the go. Going on nice vacations, posting pics on FB, the socialite. All of that was a façade...BS!!!!
When I went home and I was finally alone to myself, my thoughts would flood in. I would take ambien, or clonazepam trying to go to sleep I didn't want to think. I escaped it for as long as I possibly could. I had it all or so it seemed. None of the things and people I was around truly made me happy, but I tried so hard to make it work. I tried hard to make this new life feel right but it never did. My old life was in the shadows and I was still drawn to it. I couldn't totally forget or give up that life. So I held on to it secretly.
I'm glad I read this today. H seems to be settling into his new life. He's finally changed his location on his online profile from the city we lived in together to his new city where he lives with OW. And he's starting to exhibit the kind of smugness and "grandiosity" he had for a few months right after BD. Makes me think he thinks his new life is "working for him" and he's on a high from it.
A few weeks ago he wrote me an email saying he didn't want our D to drag out any longer. (Meanwhile, he did absolutely nothing for 19 months and just had papers drawn up when he found out I was moving 700 miles away.)
So he doesn't want it to "drag out" any longer, yet I've emailed him twice to move it along and got no response from him.
It is so very hard to wrap my head around how he could be living so far away and starting to really build his life there (changing his online profile location, moving in with OW, switching to a local bank there) and yet he isn't making ending our marriage a priority.
I would think if he is intent on living a new life there, he would feel a strong need to "wrap up" his old life so he can be free to really live his new life fully.
His issue, which he verbalized pretty clearly for a while before he moved away, is not feeling "good enough."
I don't know where his rock bottom will be. I think if he finds himself not happy in his new life either, he won't think it's because he needs to find happiness within himself. He'll think it's because he's "not good enough" for his new life. And that I feel will take a very, very long time to work through, if he ever does.
I believe we will be divorced and he will continue on for years, but I do pray every day that he gets through it, because the man I married was more than "good enough."
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He popped out had moments of clarity and he was emotional. The same thing that causes him to get emotional also caused him to run back in the tunnel where it is safe. He doesn't want to feel guilt, or sadness. He just wants to run, run, run. He feels this is the only way. He knows deep down what he has done, he knows it isn't right but he has suppressed some of it, the part that would give a glimpse of your pain. You are doing the best thing, let go of the situation and leave it to god. He either comes out of the tunnel or he doesn't. It could take years. You sound very strong, and I pray for peace and happiness in your life god bless!
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Thank you so much for the post today Denjef, it was so very, very insightful and helpful. It has given me further understanding of why my H is behaving the way he is. I'm struggling today as New Year's Eve approaches and I know H will take ow to our friends' party. However, I believe what you said about about your new, fun life being a facade is the same for my H, he told me earlier this year his "happiness" is just a mask. I needed to read this tonight and remind myself that not everything is as it seems. Thanks again and wishing you great things for 2017.
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Denjef, ditto what Cat66 says!! THANK YOU!!
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Denjef, I to want to say thank you for the post, when I feel like giving up , which is happening more and more lately, I read your posts and I see exactly what you are saying in everything W is doing, how she is acting, all her seeking around.
She can't possibly be happy with this new life she has created for herself, her problems didn't go away they are just worse, I wasn't the problem like she has a habit of telling me, her life isn't better now, why she refuses to let me back in yet is crazy, in some ways she treats me like her husband still and in other ways no chance. But I guess time is on my side, in a lot of ways I'm better off without her, especially financially and I think it bothers her.
Anyways thank you for keeping me rooted.
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A BIG THANK YOU! This is exactly what I need to hear. My H says I should find someone all the time.. well for about 2 years. My favorite part is he has picked out the people for me... BTW they are all married... seriously.. I am not you Mr. MLCer.
I find it interesting that they would say that but secretly not really want you to move on and that they are confident that LBSer love them enough not move on.
Thank Denjef!!!
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Den,
When you started to repair your relationships , how was it different than the superficial relationship you had with people.? Kids? Can you describe how you reconnected with your h? Was it slowly? Did you test the waters first? Didyou verbalize anything to him? Why were you afraid to go to him if you knew he was " waiting for you" you knew he loved you. How long did it take you to start the proces of rebuilding with kids ? Then h ?
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Den, after reading reply 117 again, could you explain the best way not to fall in to h pursuit? My h asked to get a cup of coffee . Weeks ago. That sday i first said no then called him later and asked if he still wanted to meet. We did .it went ok. Should i not have gone? Can you play out a scenerio of how we are not supposed to quote" you back off if he pursues" Once again a fine line ofbeing there for him or do yuo back off if they pursue?
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Thanks Den. I'm really gratefull for you insights.
I'm gaining a lot from everything you say.
Happy New Year.
DW
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Den
I have been following along for a while and your posts have helped a lot.
I do have a couple of questions:-
Was there a point in your crisis where your behaviour became much worse? I ask because this is our sixth Christmas without xH, he has never spent Christmas with the children but he has always text or called them wished them Happy Christmas and shown an interest in their day and what presents they had......this year nothing. He put cards and gift cards through the door a few days before Christmas while we were all still in bed.
S26 text him Christmas day evening
S "Thank you for our gift cards sorry I'm late texting we've had a busy day"[they have a 6 month old baby so trying to make sure all the family see on his first Christmas]
He received a load of abuse in return.....things like
xH "I'm at the bottom of the pile, my small effort meant nothing, throw the cards away, even when it's bad I'm still your Dad, there are a number of things I can't change or make up for and you are just a small part of that, I have no motivation to keep trying, you will not hear from me again"
S10 text Boxing day
S "Hope you had a nice Christmas did you get our card"
xH " Yes you sent it to the wrong address"
xH announced OW and stepson in November but only because his hand was forced [ our D28 changed jobs and ended up working where OW S works] but we do know he has been keeping her a secret for months. His behaviour seems to be much worse since then. xH has only seen his children for about an hour since February his excuse was he's busy with work. The children now know he was lying......if he had time for another family why didn't he have time for his own. They have told him they don't want anything to do with him. Should they just accept his little efforts [as he puts it] and by not accepting his efforts are they making things worse?
51/5 years is a long time and I need to start to think seriously about whether I'm going to continue to stand xH has completely ignored my texts since October even when it has been about the children. I really don't see any hope anymore as his behaviour now is probably the worst it has ever been.
Thank you.
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Den I hope you don't mind me asking your opinion
My husband is taking me to court to force the sale of our house despite my side trying to reach some agreement over the whole financial settlement. My lawyer advised me that in order to defend this action I would have to file for divorce so the house would not be sold but looked at as part of the settlement, makes sense although I didn't want to file but for financial security I understood.
My H found out about what my plans were via legal aid and filed for divorce first, I got served the papers three days before Christmas !
My teenage daughter called him out on this, how could he do this just before Christmas and he has told her that I filed first. I did not file first but he is adamant that I did, however, if I had filed first he wouldn't have been able to file too, he is to show my daughter emails as proof that I filed first the next time he sees her.
Nothing surprises me anymore about H and his actions but has he done this so that he is in control or purely to be cruel and nasty to me ?
It's cost him the fee to file rather than me
I was not comfortable filing for divorce and I prayed to God as I was concerned that my H would think that I had given upon him, God answered my prayers and H filed first despite how hurt I feel.
Den, I want to wish you peace and happiness and hope for the future in 2017.
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Denjef,
I know thst you are not a mind reader, but with your knowledge on the subject it makes me want to pick your brain. I would love to sit and talk to you for a day or 2.
Do you think when the mlcer does youch and goes, they have a higher return rate? Or being vanishers?
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Den , im sorry i keep asking questions. I keep telling myself i will not ask any more. But thought of this today. Did the om ever know how you truly felt about your h. When you left om did you tell him you were going back to your husband? I guess im asking what kind of talk went on with om about you and your h. Did he know you talked or slept with your h. Did you pretend that you had nothing to do with your h? I think this is my 3rd post of questions before letting you breath to answer the others. You truly have helped my brain relax with the wondering . Im sure it benefits all us lbs. thank you for your time !!
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Hello Everyone and Happy New Year to you all!
I have copied another story from a "prodigal" same as a wayward spouse who left. She is saying the same things I have been saying but sometimes it is good to read other stories. I hope her story resonates with some of you and gives you comfort. I will be back on here after work to respond to some questions.
Hello Everyone,
I was deep in thought today and I want to share some of my experience as a prodigal. At first, I was a little embarrassed to share it, but I realize that was the enemy’s condemnation and that I need to use my testimony as God has commanded, which I hope blesses you and will help overcome and hurl down the devil as you stand for the restoration of your marriage and family (Revelation 12:10-11).
I was very unhappy in my marriage and I didn’t believe I loved my husband anymore; we were always either arguing or giving each other the silent treatment. We lived like strangers in our routine of go to work, come home, take care of the children and repeat it all over again. And I never consulted God on anything; I was too angry and my heart was made of the hardest stone imaginable.
I met someone who “understood me”…someone who sang my praises, complimented me, etc. So I leapt in and did the wrong thing; knowing what I was doing was wrong, and knowing I was sinning against God.
There is a voice within every prodigal that tells them what they are doing is wrong. Every prodigal is shown the way out, but chooses to turn their back on what is “right.” Why? Because we are LOST…we are HURTING…and we are SAD. Yet, we show you, our spouses, that we are happy and that we could not have it better any other way; life is good, we are feeling good and having the time of our lives. Everything we ever wanted is now within this other person and you are now the enemy; you want to rob us of our joy, you don’t understand us, you don’t love us; because if you did, we wouldn’t have gone astray. Prodigals think CRAZY things. We hear the ENEMY’S voice louder than God’s; we have put God’s voice on mute and the enemy tells us that we will be happy if we are divorced from you…then we could be free, happy and fulfilled. It’s all a LIE, but we don’t know that. We even think our children will be “just fine”–another lie. We buy into the “it’s better for me to be happy…then I will be a better father/mother” trap—just another Lie.
We come home to you, our spouses, and you throw stones at us. You tell us what we are doing is wrong. You tell us we need God. You cry, you raise your voice, you act desperate, you act mean, etc. And the prodigal’s instinct…RUN!!! RUN as fast as we can!! Get away from this person!! We think YOU have lost it; not us. And your clinginess, desperation and tears make us sick to our stomachs; not because we don’t care about you–because we do–we love you, but it is hidden so deep inside that we can’t see or feel it. It makes us feel horrible because we KNOW what we are doing is wrong; you don’t need to tell us. We are running from God, and when you act like that, we run from you too.
My husband prayed for me and was the one standing for our marriage during that time. He didn’t know how to do it and often times he was so negative and emotional that I wanted nothing to do with him. Please listen to me–if my husband had been treating me nice, praising me, encouraging me, showing me respect and unconditional love, I would have been blown away. If he had been peaceful, okay with me leaving if that’s what I chose to do, and confident, I wouldn’t have known what to do with the situation. But I would have been drawn to that peace and it would have woken me up.
Believe it or not, I still have to remind myself of these things when I get all worked up and emotional. One would think that I above all, should know this. However, when we are in the midst of the storm, filled with love for our spouse and the desire for restoration, we have a tendency to want to do something, say something…anything to bring them back or keep them from leaving. BUT DON’T DO IT!! There is nothing you can say or do, and everything you say or do in your will, will FAIL. RELINQUISH your spouse to God. Put it all at His feet and walk away. AND DO NOT PICK IT BACK UP!!
You have to get to a point where you are okay either way…with restoration or without it because you are content with GOD and his love. When your relationship and love for God far surpasses that of your wife/husband, you have arrived. And when you are at peace with the thought of them leaving, your blessing of restoration is on its way. Let your prodigal GO!!! God will bring them home.
He brought me home to a man I SWORE I didn’t love, didn’t want to be with, and didn’t want to be in the same room with if it could be avoided. I thought I was in control and I would do as I pleased. Who was going to stop me? God was, but I didn’t know that!!
God indeed stopped me and now I am the one praying to God for my husband’s heart and I am the one who wants restoration. God brought me to my knees when there was nothing and no one else that could help me. Wow!! Just look at what God can do–He can do it, you guys!!! He can and He will!!! Just do your part…LOVE, LOVE, LOVE…respect, support, praise and help. When you are hurt, love them (they hurt too). When you are angry, love them (for they are angry too). God will show us amazing and wonderful things when we follow what he says. He commands us to love even our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48). And sometimes we feel that our spouse is the enemy, so we have to love them; they need our love because they have been taken captive by the enemy. PRAY THEM OUT!!! PRAY, PRAY, PRAY and be unrelenting!! DO NOT GIVE IN AND DO NOT BE MOVED by what they say or do. IT IS JUST TEMPORARY! GOD has them, so remember that they are NOT in control. Use this time to complete the work that needs to be done in yourself and let God work on your spouse. Restoration won’t work if you’re not ready.
I am writing this with Love, because I don’t want you guys to make the same mistakes. Remember that God wants our marriages restored and our families healed more than we do; we just need to get out of the way and let Him work.
With much love and gratitude to you all,
Name Omitted
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KP,
Whenever you are free with nothing to do and your spouse ask you for coffee, lunch or whatever you should go as your goal is to reconcile. Do not change or cancel plans to meet up with them though, don't be available everytime they suggest a meet up either. You should be far enough along that you are staying active and busy with your own life that this shouldn't be a problem telling him occasionally you have other plans.
So did you make any other plans to meet up? Did you gain any perspective where his head is at?
Denjef31
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Denjef,
I know thst you are not a mind reader, but with your knowledge on the subject it makes me want to pick your brain. I would love to sit and talk to you for a day or 2.
Do you think when the mlcer does youch and goes, they have a higher return rate? Or being vanishers?
This would be a tough question to accurately answer. This would be a good research question actually. Having said that it would appear a clinger would be more likely to return as they are clingers and cant let go. Vanishers have let go completely and appear to have moved on and settled in their new lives. That I think would be a fatal mistake to assume that though.
Any of these MLC' ers can wake up out of the fog at anytime and decide to go home just like that within the blink of an eye, just as clinging boomerang may ultimately choose OW and make that work as they have destroyed everything else in their lives. It seems like you are trying to determine the likelihood of your spouse return based on a pattern since everything else appears to be script. Don't do that, it could steer you in the wrong direction. It ends when it ends and he wont have a answer about the direction he will take his life until he looks within.
Denjef31
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No OM didn't know how I truly felt about my H...no one did. I stated in probably fog 1 thread that I told everyone who would listen how bad my husband was. I painted a very good picture of why I was justified in leaving him and I have everyone believing my BS. I loved my H but I couldn't and wouldn't tell a soul that. Something in me made me do and say those things. I still cant explain why I wanted to destroy my H's personality other than I wanted to make myself look good and have everyone pitying me.
I lied to OM, trashing my H even telling OM about H .begging and pleading to work on our M. OM and I would laugh and make jokes at H expense as I was playing the game and I had to keep it up. Soon as I would get home I was thinking about H. I felt extreme guilt by being dishonest about my true feelings but again something was pulling me to explore. Being a committed married woman didn't fit into this new lifestyle. After all I couldn't fall on the sword after I said so many horrible things about H, after I told so many personal things with my own personal spin on it. No I had to take those lies with me to the grave.
H kept saying I wouldn't take him back because I was doing a good job lying to people and I was afraid of what people would think. He had no idea how right he was. It took months of rebuilding a relationship with my kids. My daughter especially as her and I bumped heads the most.
Denjef31
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Den , thank you. I had a feeling thats how it could be with my and and ow. Laughing and all. In a way a wish she knew h and i have had normal talks and stuff. She thinks she has him in full but she doesnt, . The coffee was fine. I think i know here my h s head is goung but i then think im nuts and making things up. Little things here and there that he has said. If i listen i hear him giving hints of wanting to come home. But like you ,i think he is afraid of what people might think. But it is his life and future and shouldnt care about that.
My h is going to fix the breaks on my car. He offered to swap cars. Twice. I cant help but wonder if ow and him could be over. She lives a few blocks away. I could drive up and down her block 10 times in h car. Could he be trying to tell me something with this offer to swap cars or did he not even think of it. ?
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Well i have no clue what he is doing. He is with ow and told me this. He always denied before, But he is pickng up our d and said he would,stop in. Immore confused than ever.still fixing my breaks tomorrow
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I keep reminding h how ow hit me and how can he be with someone who hit the mother of his children? Why doesnt this bother him.? I have even asked him to find someone new because of this. Why doesnt he think i will d him? Is he fearful when saying this or does he really belive that i wont.?
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OM and I would laugh and make jokes at H expense as I was playing the game and I had to keep it up. Soon as I would get home I was thinking about H.
Just wondering, denjef, did it bother you either consciously or subconsciously when OM would participate in making jokes at your H's expense? Did it make you think maybe OM wasn't a truly good person, either while in the fog or once you were out of it?
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No, I knew OM reaction and comments were a direct reflection of the horrible things I exaggerated. I can say I felt more guilt because my life was one big fat lie and no one was seeing the true me during this time. I was a chameleon and changing my personality depending on who I was around. After the fog I felt worse because I really wanted to step up and tell everybody how horrible of a person I was and most of the stuff I said about H wasn't true, in fact I did play a part in a lot of the things we went thru.
I still haven't got the courage to do that, what I have done is defend my H and I have asked people who do not respect my H, our marriage, to please leave us be as what they say will not sway any decisions I make because they don't know the whole story they only know my version of the story and that it was not fair to H. I feel I really need to come completely clean and laundry list what lies I told to feel better. I have of course came completely clean to my H about everything.
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Wow DenJef! Just wow! I know what you are saying and have felt it from the LBS end.
I really hope things work out for you positively.
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Den, this must be so hard for you being bombarded with all these questions, but it is so very important for all of us LBSes to hear every word you talk about. You have no idea how I/we cling to everything you say.
It is as if you are talking through our spouse's head and it makes things so much clearer to understand and to have some empathy instead of anger for our spouse. I can't imagine having to relive what are you doing.
Does anyone ever ask you how you are doing through all of this? I hope you are taking care of yourself and getting all of the TLC you need. It can't be easy reliving the past. I know that when I am finally done with all of this, whether with my H or not, I will not want to relive the past but will want to move forward.
Thanks again ...
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Denjef, coming clean to your H is the most important and it shows your tremendous strength of character to have done so.
My fear is my H will never have that strength.
I'm afraid he's gone completely to the "dark side." He hasn't responded to my last 2 emails that were strictly about D business. He lives with OW and seems to be settling fully into his new life in his new city.
Just before Christmas he emailed me to say he will have to put my dog down soon. I felt it was sort of manipulative of him to say that knowing how much I love and miss my dog. And also shows his complete lack of empathy and his inability to see how anyone but himself is affected by anything. He clearly didn't comprehend how putting the dog down would affect me, since I won't even get to say goodbye.
Once a person is that far gone, I don't know how they come back and that scares me.
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Krathos,
Sounds like you are about to or perhaps already have drawn your line in the sand. Yes at some point LBS will get tired and completely detach whether consciously or subconsciously. At some point some space and distance must be created, and a time comes to take care of ourselves. MLC'er don't see the pull away initially, for some it could take days, weeks, or months before they finally realize you are no longer hanging on to their word.
Eventually, they most definitely feel the distance. They will certainly move closer in attempt to close the gap and secure you in the position you have kept throughout this ordeal. When this happens the LBS is by this point hoping for a sign there spouse is coming out of the fog. They aren't. They just noticed you might be slipping away and so they try to do a little damage control. They are peaking out of the tunnel but they are not ready to completely come out.
Perhaps for some this could be an indication of their true desire once this ugly thing they are dealing with has been dealt with. Anything can happen but there is a reason we wont let you go. There is a reason we are checking to make sure we are right where we left you. We are sick, we are compulsive, we are having in many ways an out of body experience but we are not stupid. It's like looking at yourself from outside of your body doing and saying things that you don't agree with, that are totally out of character but you hear and see yourself doing these things.
We should be able to stop it as we are aware we are doing these things but we cant. We have completely lost self control. In moments of clarity we hope you will wait for us to get thru this and you can forgive us because we still deep down want you. In the fog we will rationalize and say awful things to get you out of our face, off our backs because you know us so well. You see what the OM/OW doesn't. You know what we are showing to everyone is not the real us. We can sense you looking into our soul. We don't want that, we don't want you to know our secrets. How deep the betrayal really is. We will say and do anything to throw you off track.
So what is a LBS to do? After all we have a life to live too. I ask from personal experience to please find it in your heart to pray for them. They are lost, confused, and scared. It doesn't seem that way but they are. Even the ones who are so sure in their sin that they are better off and happy in their new life. It is all a façade. It really pains me to read so many stories and they all are going thru the same thing. My own H is struggling to hold on to me, reconnect, as he is still dealing with MLC.
Sometimes I become frustrated, and then I think back about the confusion that was in my head so I get on my knees and I pray. Everytime I feel myself feeling negative about this process I am given a sign. When I practice what I have been saying to all of you I see movement on his end to come closer. When I slip up and move closer to him that scares him. He still has much work to do and I can see very clearly he wants to take control of how fast this goes. MLC is a process, sometimes a very long long process.
While your spouse is going thru whatever internal work, replay, and monstering they need to do we need to also do our own work, get to a better place. I often think as an LBS and as a former MLC'er if we know what we should be doing then why is it so difficult to do? Why do we resist the process? Why does it take us so long to let go?
While I have let go, and given in to the process long ago, I resisted even when I knew what I was doing would not help or change the outcome. Our brains just tells us to go with the heart. We defy common sense. We feel if we could just reach them, talk to them, talk some sense into them. Our lives, MLC is nothing like the romantic movies we see on TV. Things will not work as they do where you confess your love and our spouse runs into our arms crying and asking for forgiveness. They will often come home not even acknowledging the pain or hurt. For some it will still be all about them and you should be lucky they came back. Don't let that deter you, they still have work to do and your strength will be needed even more to get thru this painful and incredibly difficult time.
Denjef31
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Nassau,
He has completely gone to the dark side. I did too. That is what the tunnel is a place of darkness. Everything is negative and voices telling us the wrong thing to do. We are truly in a battle between right and wrong. It takes time to not listen to the voices saying do this do that. You think because what you see or hear is all negative and utter chaos that things cant change, that he wont recover but he can. If he can gather his strength, if he can fight to get better he absolutely can come out of this.
You need to step away as you will see a very bitter, angry person who seems so happy in their adulterous lifestyle. The anger, the mean spirited person is the person who is trying to throw you off track. That is not your spouse doing these things. Your spouse can see/hear everything but there are not in control of the ship, the vessel has been taken over right now. Many of you have no idea what you are truly dealing with.
Denjef31
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I just realized this thread is close to 150 again, do you all feel you need another thread started for the fog? If you all are okay and feel you have enough information about it I shall end it here. Let me know
Denjef31
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Please do another thread. You help everyone so much. I know how grateful i am for you doing this and so are many others. Thank you thank you thank you!!
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ditto!
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Denjef,
I have had a roller coaster of 2 days. My W has been a little all over the place. Today she tells me that she will do the necessary work for the marriage. She wants the marriage. She is not asking me to come home. She is going to seek help.
We have talked many hours and it does seem different and of course I am more than skeptical at 19 months from BD. She is willing to take a chance and I am hesitant.
I don't see any remorse and she still blames. She still has her walls up but she is telling me the time is now to start working and moving forward. She says this is the opportunity that I have been waiting for.
Does it turn on just like that ? I met her for coffee yesterday after 75 days NC and we talked about our marriage. She is hurt, angry, vulnerable and willing to take a leap. I know it's actions and not words. I just don't know if it's possible for this turn around. Then again, we have only talked 37 days over 19 months so maybe I have been out of the process.
I just don't know. It feels like I have been here before but it also feels different this time. She talks a lot about the kids. I see and hear the fear. Right now we are just talking on the phone. I do have to give her a chance here. Correct ?
I'm not moving back in and we are going to take things slowly. I am really overwhelmed at the moment with everything that she is talking about with all her hurt and pain. And again, it's all her hurt and pain.
I just don't know how this dance is supposed to start now. I know that I cant shut her out so I am listening. Any thoughts ?
Thanks Denjef
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If it's not too hard for you, Please do another thread. Thank you so much again.
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Denjef,
I think everyone gains so much from your words, I know I do. Even when you answer others, I see so much more clearly, and have learned more empathy for my H because of you. Please continue if it isn't too much for you.
Thank you as always!
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Im curious den , when you are in the fog what kind of talk, words actions would make you feel good about your spouse.
You tell us that " love" or any kind of hug of the sorts are out of question.
It seems as though if we are negative thats a slam to an already low self esteem.
Also we need to avoid anything to boost an ego. Is there anything said or done beside leaving you alone that made you feel better or made feelings seem to surface ( at least for a liitle while) for your spouse. When memories are mentioned , how did that affect you?
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It is time for a new thread, Dej. I will be locking this one. Please be so kind so start a new one. Thank you.
new thread: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8542.0