[Nas]

Sorry, denjef, I didn't express myself well in my post.  When I said it makes me think MLC is bullsh*t, I meant the situation is bullsh*t, not that I don't believe in MLC.  I very much believe in MLC and very much believe my H is having an MLC and didn't just fall in love with another woman.

Thank you for your response.  Yes, I suppose I am angrier today.  My H is refusing to continue honoring our financial agreement until I sign his D papers, which don't even list my correct address.  And he wrote to me, "Even though you didn't ask I assume you do still care" and proceeded to tell me my beloved "baby," my dog is very sick and he might need to put him down. 

That's what gets me angry, the situation for which there is no remedy. I move away to rebuild my shattered life and my H responds by rushing to have D papers drawn up and trying to insinuate I don't care about my dog, who I miss so much. 

In the beginning, I tried to convince my H he was depressed.  He never denied it but just ignored me. After I found out about OW, he admitted to anxiety and borrowed my books on depression. I knew at the time he was just trying to appease me to deflect from the fact that I found out about OW.  But I still encouraged it because I thought at least maybe he might seek help for the depression.  He kept my books, don't think he's ever read them.

And while living with OW, I don't see how he will face anything.  What scared me about your post was the part I quoted, where they "establish themselves without you" and start a whole new life and if it works out they don't try to reconcile. 
My H's OW is not crazy, doesn't need him for money or support - she's just an old girlfriend from 20-plus years ago who left her H for my H.  Her H already has a new girlfriend so he's obviously not "standing."  OW will cling to my H now because she can't go back to hers and as long as she keeps being nice to him and validating him, my H has no reason to look back.  That's what I took from reading that - that he left me because in the height of his depressive thinking he felt he was not happy in our marriage.  He might not even still believe that, but now he's living with OW and if she's not terrible and his new job is not terrible, he doesn't have to look back at me, even if he knows he hurt me.  That's what I was calling bullsh*t, the unfairness of the fact that in the midst of MLC he left for a new life and even if he realizes his old life wasn't as bad as he made it out to be when he was in the fog of MLC, the only way he will leave the new life and look back towards me is if his new life falls apart.  If it doesn't fall apart, then that's his new life and that's where he will stay.

I'm probably babbling here. 

[No expectations]

Hi Denjef,

Thank you for all your posts.  I know this must interfere with your own life and dealing with your situation, and I really appreciate your insight.  I do have a question, you can answer me whenever you have time.

You said :
Yes, in MLC which is about a depressed person seeking happiness instead of working on themselves internally, they run run run.

My h has been doing this, but has also been trying to work on himself.  He was attending IC, until the therapist went on medical leave.  She is supposed to be back after New Year.  H told me yesterday he's looking forward to talking w her again, so I know he's going to continue.  He also said I could come with him if I want, but I don't have to.  We had a really good conversation about his MLC (I didn't use those words but I have in the past, and the therapist told him that's what he is going through).  We talked about his loneliness, and I told him I think it stems from him being unable to make himself happy, and that he would be lonely wherever or whoever he is with.  He agreed.  He has cut back his shows in January to only 5, he is a drummer by night (has a FT day job) and in December had 18 shows.  He said he is keeping himself free for January.  We talked about how he needs to spend some time working through his issues.  He said he knows, but it hurts so bad.  I replied, I understand, but you will need to find a way through this or you will just keep running forever.  He agreed.

I know what I said was kind of dangerous but it had been on my mind a lot, and he was so open to talking yesterday that I went ahead and jumped in.  So my question for you is, how do you perceive all of this?  I still consider it a MLC but it sounds like he is really trying to find his way through it.  I pray he has the strength to do it.  I know it must be horribly tough and painful.  Just so you know, BD was in September, 2nd one in October, he moved out in October.  He said he had been unhappy since I was sick, 3 years ago.  I know it's still so early.  I'm trying not to get too hopeful but I can't help but think these are all positive steps. 

At this point, I'm really not putting any pressure on him.  I don't contact him unless I really have a need. I give him the time and space he needs.  I feel like I'm doing a good job on getting on with my life.  I don't know if there is anything else I should/could be doing but I am cautiously optimistic.  Trying not to give myself any expectations or false hope.

Thanks again Denjaf.  I feel like you've become our "guest columnist"...."Ask Denjaf!" lol

[denjef31]

Nassau,

Well sometimes I misinterpret what I read which it seems I have done that in your post by reading it a little too fast. I did also correctly interpret your anger. Who can blame any of you for the situation you have been forced to deal with by yourself? Certainly not me or anyone else as we are or have been in this very same situation of frustration.

Yes, it is very true sometimes they don't look back unless or until they have reason to look back. Selfish? Yes. No one said MLC was not selfish as this whole illness is truly about self loathing and self absorbency at the same time. No one wants to stop the party when the party is a blast. No one see's the error in their ways until they are forced to confront it. For many they will keep running until they cant run anymore. No longer being able to run is the equivalent of hitting rock bottom. Letting go of the ledge they have been holding on to all of this time to prevent looking at themselves.

Rock bottom can be many and different things depending on the issues within that the MLC is struggling with. OW/OM is one of many many things that an MLC can choose to self medicate. As difficult as this is in some cases, the MLC' er has to lose and destroy everything before rebuilding and/or starting over can begin. There is no right or wrong. No one can tell you how this will end or when it will end. Yes it sounds crazy to suggest you be kind and loving and essentially turn a blind eye to BS they are putting you through. Not speaking out and calling them out on their bad behavior, lies, manipulation, and mistreatment of you.

You can do that at anytime you choose. In fact most of us already have. We have argued and pleaded with them. Asked them to come home while in tears, asked them to stop hurting us, threatened them, threw them out the house, started divorce proceedings, informed family and friends they are cheating on you. Has any of that worked? No it hasn't or you wouldn't be here. Your tears equals manipulation and it is exactly the thing they run from. It fuels their behavior. It makes you less desirable and the OW/OM a better option.

So yes I am telling you to move on with your life for real! Give up on trying to reason with them, give up on thinking your tears, your pain, your hurt, your fears, will wake them up. It wont. Pity is not what any of us want. What I suggest and many others who have been where you are is not a game. It is not manipulation. It is only a manipulative game if the changes you make are only for him. It is only a game if you are not GAL for you, it is only a game if you are acting as if you are detaching but holding on silently to all that pain and hurt. Let go of all that and let go of him/her.

When you truly detach, when you truly GAL we are not able to hurt you anymore. The peace grows from within. Everything you do from that moment forward would and will be for you and that of your children. You are able and willing to accept whatever comes your way. Your strength and resolve is unbreakable. You will accept and know that you are fine with or without the marriage. Your thoughts will no longer be consumed about what your spouse is doing. We see the changes, we feel the shift, we either want to prevent that from happening or we don't. Some will be to self absorb to recognize the shift, to weak to do anything about it. So they do nothing.

Denjef31

[Watcher]

Denjef,

That makes so much sense that they are running away from the pain that they have caused us. I was in a divorce support group for about 10 months because my crazy mlc er wanted a divorce, go figure.

My sampling is only about 100 people. My story was the odd ball of the group and they all told me so. People who want to end a marriage, end a marriage. There were both initiators and non initiators in the group. Guess what, even the ones that hated each other, hammered out a settlement.

In other words there was no dragging of the feet. Done is really done. People who really want a divorce, really want to move on, and they make sure it happens like you said. 

[Nas]

I completely agree with that.  My H didn't even remember telling me he wanted a divorce way back in July of 2015.
When he was moving 1000 miles away to live with OW, I asked, "Why didn't you just divorce me?"
He looked down at his feet, his shoulders completely dropped and he just said, "I don't know. "

Makes me wonder though, when they drag their feet for however long, what changes that makes them finally move forward.  When my H found out I was moving, he quickly had D papers drafted and signed them. Went through the trouble of finding a notary public and signing page after page and mailing them back. 
Just makes me wonder what made him so "sure" in that moment that he took such decisive action when he had been so blatantly avoiding it up until then. 
Another unanswerable MLC question.

[denjef31]

Stillluvhim,

You threw a few truth darts, that is all for now you need to do. We would like to help our spouse come thru the tunnel but we cant. He must do this all on his own and for himself.

Pray that god reveals to your H things he needs to see and hear. Pray that god guides his footsteps out of the darkness and into the light. Pray that God reveals to your H the true nature of the OW. Pray that god shows your H that you are his true soulmate. While you are praying you need to take your focus off your H and zip your lips while god works on him. That is the honest truth.

Action means inaction by you.

Denjef31

[Velika]

Denjef, I am curious how MLCer feels toward his/her children.

My MLC-H has from the beginning been extremely aggressive about sharing our son. He at times makes it hard for me to see him and uses him to hurt me.

At the same time, when he does have him, he is not in tune with his needs. They just hang out with OW. He doesn't plan things for him.

He has crossed a lot of lines in my opinion but has not done anything that a court can say he should not have shared custody.

What do you think a LBS spouse should do in this situation and in regards to the kids? If I fight then I become the "enemy" and he won't be self reflective. But I feel I am failing my son sometimes (many times).

Your insights are invaluable and I would love to hear about this topic. Thank you for all your posts.

[Never say never]

DenJef, you posts are absolutely invaluable, but yet, they are so hard to follow.  I know we are supposed to detach, but here I was again tonight following my husband out to the car saying why do you have to leave?  I had dinner cooking, candles burning.  Really? 

I just remembered an interesting thing this morning.  My H gives me a kiss when he leaves each morning.  His comment was a little different this morning.  He said, I know you don't care but I love you, and he walked away. 

His usual is whether you want to hear it or not, I love you.  I used to get so frustrated and say he was wasting his breath because words meant nothing.  This morning was different.  So I yelled over the banister.  I said you know what?  I do care.  I love you, but you are the one that doesn't care, and he walked out without saying a word.

I guess I am just frustrated again:(

[Anjae]

Your wife's illness is not unique but it is something that is not talked about on this forum much if at all.

If by Watcher's wife illness you mean depression, we have always talked about depression on the board, and still do. Of all types of depression, clinical, post-partum, situational, MLC, bipolar (a type of depression with two poles, a manic and a depressive one), etc.

We have several threads on depression:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8495.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1646.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4550.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?board=23.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=307.0


Depression is also talked about on the Links/blogs/articles for us all to share  threads:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7723.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7143.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1231.0

as well as on the Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research threads:

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7709.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6315.0

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1786.0


Depression is also mentioned in several personal story threads. And it has always been. Current members that often post about their depression and PTSD include Barbiedoll and My Brain is Broken.

Many of mine older threads, especially the ones around the time I was taking courses on Coursera on neuroscience/neurobiology are full of posts about depression, bipolar as well as the differences between them and the difference between mood and personality disorder.

Ready2's threads also cover a lot of ground on those fields.

Checking Shantily Lace/Hope Floats old threads and post will also offer a good view on depression.

The fact that a person suffers from depression or bipolar does not mean a person cannot add MLC to their existing illness. Old Pilot's mother is bipolar and has had a MLC.

[Velika]

Anjae, do you mind posting the direct links to your threads on neurobiology? I would love to read.

Thank you for posting all of this!