Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Velika on January 19, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
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Previous thread:
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7709.0
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I agree it is important for any LBS to understand this as a physical change and not an emotional/circumstial one. If for instance you see this as the brain not being able to distinguish between fantasy and reality, regulate emotions, understand consequence, feel empathy -- and not someone just "acting out" -- it is easier to manage responses that don't exacerbate the condition, especially in a state of shock and trauma.
In my husband's case though I do believe that our circumstances (circumstances beyond our control) were the trigger and that if the circumstances had not been as they are, then this would never have happened. However, where MLC as a brain chemistry thing comes into play for me is not in why it happened but how it has played itself out. His ongoing behavior fits the MLC pattern.
There was a discussion a while back that MLC was stress + depression + addiction (typically seen in form of affair or fantasy affair). Someone pointed out there were a high number of MLCers with twins or high stress jobs.
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I think (and it's just my theory) that when we say there is nothing we could have done to prevent it, that's accurate because even if a situation triggered it, removing the situation doesn't change the risk of it. This goes back to Changing4Ever's last statement, which I also believed for a long time (we were having huge financial issues, family problems, etc., and I assumed everything would be better once we fixed the outer things).
But the underlying issue (chemical impairment, genetics, or psychological predisposition) still exists. There's a reason the trigger made them behave this certain way. But also, like with bipolar mania, it's not inevitable - once you understand the risk, you can, not control it, but at least be a better predictor of what triggers it and/or what signs show it's coming on so you can take measures to ease it.
That's not a perfect science, but I am hopeful that one day, if we recognize this as a 'thing' that is more than just a punchline, a plan of action for the individual can be taken to fit their unique needs, and turn from crisis to transition. My own crisis didn't 'stop' until I changed nutritionally (supplements that regulated serotonin and dopamine) and delved 100% into a plan of personal and spiritual development. I don't think there's a magic pill that just stops it, but if it was seen as a disorder, the shame factor could be lifted and treatment for the individual could be developed.
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We actually had agreed upon a solution for our issue that triggered all this, but this involved relying on the goodwill of family members. Then he started to have problems with other family members (not the ones involved in solving the problem) and his relationship with them became cut off or strained and he decided that he didn't feel comfortable relying on the family members who were going to help us solve our issue. So he had to look elsewhere for a solution. That's what pushed him over the edge. And seeing his mother aging not so well (a great deal due to her own self-neglect), also made the issue we were facing bigger in his mind. However, this is also a third reason I forgot to mention that I have been willing to tolerate what is happening, because just by chance the issue we were facing was actually the topic of my PhD dissertation. So as much as I don't like what he is doing, I understand the cultural and social and personal pressures that he is feeling because i spent 10 years of my life researching the topic, never expecting it would happen to me.
While my husband is clearly depressed, fear plays a huge role in his MLC. He won't admit it, but it is very clear to me (and the OW). Not sure if it is classic anxiety, but definitely I would say this is another emotion that becomes exaggerated in MLC.
Even today he asked me about whether he could rely on me for something that he has long relied on me for, and I basically told him stop worrying as this is not something you would need now, maybe 2 or 3 years down the line at the earliest so don't ask me now. It's an issue where early on in his MLC I drew a clear boundary that never existed before between us (wish I had made it even earlier or else things might have turned out much different) and I reiterated that boundary today, gently though telling him in an emergency the boundary could be crossed. That shut him up. But clearly some anxiety was bubbling up in him.
In fact, I would argue that anxiety is more likely the cause of the MLC and depression is just the symptom. The anxiety made him do it, but he is depressed that he has done it.
I make a conscious choice every day to stay with my husband in spite of his craziness because I do believe he can't help most of it. That there is something going on with his brain chemistry. Many years ago I actually believed he was manic-depressive. Not full blown crazy manic-depressive, more mild than many cases I read about, but he definitely would cycle a few days happy and upbeat and a few days withdrawn and depressed. He pretty much outgrew that at least in the very obvious form, but at the time when I noticed it I also made a conscious choice inside myself to stand by him if indeed he was really manic-depressive. So yes, knowing they have an illness is so important.
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I have noticed the same things with my H. He would say he was depressed early on. Constantly had stomach issues I believe from anxiety. I have clearly seen behavior that cycles from depressed to belligerent , to trying to act happy.
What I struggle with is the road he took to feel better. OW , drugs , and abandonment.
I've hung on believing this is definitely a sickness. For me it's paramount for me to understand what really happened to him.
This thread is insightful. Thank you.
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You've sparked an angle I hadn't thought of before. There IS a thing (in the DSM) called mixed anxiety-depressive disorder. The risk factors (via wiki - take for what it's worth) are everything we've just discussed. ;)
Risk factors for mixed anxiety-depressive disorder include risk factors for either depression or anxiety disorders. These risk factors often overlap and may include:
History of mental health disorders in the family, including substance addictions
Living in poverty
Lack of social or familial support
Having a serious or chronic illness
Low self-esteem
Childhood trauma
Stress
Going to do more research on this, but interesting that my xH was ecstatic when he talked his psych into changing his diagnosis from bipolar to generalized anxiety. It was clearly so much more than that.
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If I misunderstood you Thunder, that is my bad. Thogught you were saying MLC just happens to everyone, because I did read that somewhere and know for a fact it's untrue. :)
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Just wanted to point out this article again - though in our understanding it probably should say MLT and not MLC:
Great apes go through mid-life crisis
Survey hints at biological cause for middle-age blues.
http://www.nature.com/news/great-apes-go-through-mid-life-crisis-1.11847
I understand this as if even apes get it that there is a biological cause that all people go through at that age, and then I believe depending on maybe the ´dose´ of that biological cause, personality and triggers and other circumstances (including unfortunately if OW is more complete AD or quite compatible) etc. the individual either just feels less happy during these years and then adjusts, or goes through a MLT, or a short or long MLC and comes or not out/back afterwards.
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I forgot the hereditary part I think that can easily influence on one side how susceptible one is to these biological causes and also on the personality traits that might or not increase the effect.
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MLC has been around for years and years yet not listed in the DSM5. Probably because not every person goes though it.
One of my favourite quotes from Conway's 'Men in MLC' is:
"Years ago The New York Times ran an anonymous but pointed letter which read in part, "I was forty years old and my husband forty-six when the eccentric behaviour began. An otherwise reasonable and family-loving man suffered, not depression as we understood it, but rage, fatigue, incommunicability, suspicion, hostility. But every incident was my fault supposedly. I was the woman and I was alleged to be in the change of life. Unfortunately, doctors, psychiatrists, men in general, have kept it all under the rug where they have swept it themselves. They are in terror of the truth of acknowledging a condition which affects their behaviour beyond their control, but which they readily ascribe to women without mercy."
Added to that, correct me if I'm wrong, but most research is funded by drug companies. Funded because there is the potential to make large sums of money from selling medication to 'cure' what ails us. The myth of MLC has placed this under the psychological/moral/character umbrella, of which there is no potential to generate an income for the research investor. I think that is a large part of the reason MLC has never been taken seriously.
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I think we are still far off from the necessary understanding for drug companies to be involved.
Of course, there would be a huge market if there were a drug that could cure all this.
But first one needs to identify the brain chemistry/hormones behind MLC in the first place before a drug could be found, unless a drug gets found inadvertently. Just like how Viagra was originally a heart drug and then they found by chance it could help erectile dysfuction as well.
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I forgot the hereditary part I think that can easily influence on one side how susceptible one is to these biological causes and also on the personality traits that might or not increase the effect.
Yes, I have wondered about the genetic component. There was something in the news in the last few years about a "happiness" gene that was identified. My husband happens to be from a country with one of the lowest rates of having that gene and with the lowest rates of happiness. I have always felt he was simply an unhappy person, that it had nothing to do with me or even his life, that he was just naturally unhappy, although it didn't reach the level I would call depression like he seems to be in now. Could be due to childhood trauma partially but I always felt there was something inherent in him. He reached a point in his life where he felt there was an unsolvable problem that he needed a solution to and this may have tied in with his natural unhappiness to push him over the edge.
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I forgot the hereditary part I think that can easily influence on one side how susceptible one is to these biological causes and also on the personality traits that might or not increase the effect.
Yes, I have wondered about the genetic component. There was something in the news in the last few years about a "happiness" gene that was identified. My husband happens to be from a country with one of the lowest rates of having that gene and with the lowest rates of happiness. I have always felt he was simply an unhappy person, that it had nothing to do with me or even his life, that he was just naturally unhappy, although it didn't reach the level I would call depression like he seems to be in now. Could be due to childhood trauma partially but I always felt there was something inherent in him. He reached a point in his life where he felt there was an unsolvable problem that he needed a solution to and this may have tied in with his natural unhappiness to push him over the edge.
It's been mentioned in a few of the other threads for this, but look into Pyroluria or Pyrolle Disorder. It's a genetic B6 and Zinc deficiency that tends to hit the European (particularly Irish) lineage the most. Some doctors believe it can create a propensity for serious ailments like personality or mood disorders, alcoholism, and blood clots, to less serious things like digestive disorders, chronic kidney stones, and chronic diverticulitis. My xH's paternal side suffers from most of that! It's a bit of a red flag to me, but it's also not widely accepted by all doctors. There's a clinic in Illinois called Mensah Medical that specializes in these sorts of imbalances. Just more food for thought (or cheeseless tunnels, depending on your perspective).
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I think we are still far off from the necessary understanding for drug companies to be involved.
And that's exactly my point. How do we even begin to get to the bottom of this if no one is prepared to fund research into it. We don't. And on and on it goes without any real public knowledge or understanding.
I'm not suggesting that medication is going to be the answer. I'm suggesting that drug companies are the ones who fund the research and they obviously can't see the financial payoffs.
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This is a slight tangent, but in the UK at least, much appears to be happening in terms of generating awareness of mental health, especially in men. This seems to be geared towards depression, and I have yet to see someone say that they destroyed their life rather than acknowledge a depression, but some articles come close.
David Baddeil, a well-known comic, writes on this; he says he has been in therapy for 10 years. He also wrote that his father suffers from depression, but wouldn't acknowledge it for anything, and acts towards others accordingly. That's the closest I've seen.
The awareness campaign seems to be focused on men committing suicide, which is said to be the biggest killer of young/early middle aged men now, rather than disease. That is obviously a very serious matter which needs to be addressed; there seems to be less focus on those who "simply" destroy lives.
I'm not at all saying that this constitutes research into the matter, just noting what I observe. Perhaps this is a tiny starting point.
It does point out that the stigma attached keeps people from coming forward; I haven't specifically seen something that says that men may blame everything else, though.
And I agree with kikki, the drug companies don't have a vested interest in funding studies that don't result in a need for a drug, so this side of things does get ignored.
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Here's a question: If we accept that there is something chemical going on that causes this, and absent any sort of drug treatment, then what is it that causes them to get out of it, or for the fog to lift? I've seen it said there is nothing one can do to force the fog to lift, that they have to work through their issues first, but if it is actually a chemical thing, do they really need to work through issues or is it that whatever happened to them chemically just passes?
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And another question, in the absence of a pharmaceutical solution to MLC, conventional wisdom says that if we lay off pressuring our husbands they are more likely to come back. That giving them space is the best thing. So what is this doing to their brain chemistry that increases the likelihood of them returning to us?
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I think pressuring them just adds to their confusion and makes it worse. By giving them space they can process easier.
I know there were times when my H was deep in thought and if I asked him a question he almost got irritated. As if I broke his concentration and he became more confused. Like he couldn't handle two thoughts at once.
There's lots of swirling thoughts going on in them thar brains. ::)
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I think anyone deep in thought would be annoyed, MLC or not.
But my husband up front asked me for patience and space and I agreed to give it to him. This was even before I fully realized it was a MLC and the reason I thought I was giving it to him was different from how it has panned out. I thought it was a more practical matter but really it is something in his brain that needs it.
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Here's a question: If we accept that there is something chemical going on that causes this, and absent any sort of drug treatment, then what is it that causes them to get out of it, or for the fog to lift? I've seen it said there is nothing one can do to force the fog to lift, that they have to work through their issues first, but if it is actually a chemical thing, do they really need to work through issues or is it that whatever happened to them chemically just passes?
If this is depression related, depression is inflammation based. If this inflammation is exacerbated by hormonal changes, perhaps when these stabilize the inflammation will also decrease.
This is also a question I have, because just as LBS will describe their spouse as changing overnight, some recovered MLCers' first hand accounts lead me to believe that the fog lift can also be sudden.
I don't believe MLC is about resolving issues, but I do think it creates a level of disinhibition and lack of awareness and self control that permits otherwise manageable issues to blossom out of control. For example, at bomb drop my husband complained that we didn't go on enough 1:1 weekend getaways together. But his disinhibited solution was to take OW to a gathering of his work colleagues and FaceTime our son shirtless and glowing from a hotel room -- less than one month after bomb drop.
Maybe if someone did this once and then took accountability, asked for forgiveness, did some soul searching, and gained the insight to see what had really movibated this, it would be working through issues. But instead a MLCer will often do increasingly worse things. Also some reconciliation threads as I have mentioned describe returning MLCers as "uncooked," still foggy, and very unaware oftentimes of what just happened and their own role in it.
My feeling is that since the amygdala is likely involved, engaging with a MLCer further taxes his/her amygdala and stress hormones as well, thereby exacerbating this conditon.
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I think we are still far off from the necessary understanding for drug companies to be involved.
And that's exactly my point. How do we even begin to get to the bottom of this if no one is prepared to fund research into it. We don't. And on and on it goes without any real public knowledge or understanding.
I'm not suggesting that medication is going to be the answer. I'm suggesting that drug companies are the ones who fund the research and they obviously can't see the financial payoffs.
My suspicion is that MLC is an autoimmune disorder linked to gut health. I think that increased interest in gut-brain connection may help on this front.
Earlier this year I went to a type of spiritual psychic. She kept tapping the right side of her temples and saying, "Your husband is really #%&@* up right now!" This led me to research right hemisphere of frontotemporal lobe.
Well the other day I saw him and he kept rubbing the right side of his temple like he was in pain. I saw this many times leading up to and after bomb drop. In fact, before bomb drop he started to get very serious migraines with chills that were so debilitating he couldn't drive at times.
He suffered from severe gut health issues that have gotten much worse since MLC began. One of my pet theories was that the initial mania and "high" he experienced was actually from introduction of new gut flora from OW. (Heh heh a "fecal transplant" if you will.) At bomb drop he looked amazing. His skin and eyes glowed; I could tell he felt not just elated but healthy and energetic.
My theory is that once this adjustment passes and their gut health becomes commingled, the issues have returned. He can no longer treat them with OW fecal transplant. Now he has been diagnosed with mega colon (linked to schizophrenia) and has aged very rapidly.
I have also noticed something strange and that is when my son returns from a weekend with his dad, his breath is often not very good. It is not from lack of toothbrushing but rather digestive. It may be something a mother would only notice, but I had definitely made the connection more than once.
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I'm convinced my H's MLC was hormonal. I think I mentioned I even saw him have hot flashes. I've had them so I recognized them right away. His chest and face would turn red, he would start to sweat, and he would turn down the heat and put cooler clothes on.
They didn't last long but I saw them for what they were.
So in my H's case, and only his, I really think if he had gotten treated for low T, with testosterone, he would have possibly not have had all the side effects of low T. Confusion, exhaustion, unhappiness and a few other things.
I wonder if anyone else has experienced this?
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This is a slight tangent, but in the UK at least, much appears to be happening in terms of generating awareness of mental health, especially in men. This seems to be geared towards depression, and I have yet to see someone say that they destroyed their life rather than acknowledge a depression, but some articles come close.
Whilst I welcome the move in the UK which has seen a lot of TV time given to mental health issues, every one I have watched and every article I have read, concentrates on the already known 'faces' of depression and so the articles or programmes are trying to make it more 'acceptable' to get help, which is great BUT
what I have been waiting for is that programme or article that tackles the lesser well known but I suspect far more common aspects of depression......and which all of us on here are more familiar with........
the doing things to extreme like working too hard, exercising too hard, drinking too much etc........which causes them to withdraw and of course the type of depression that leads someone to want to abandon their lives...............one day someone will make a programme about that side of depression and I believe if this 'face' of depression was more widely known along with it being more acceptable to seek out help then more people would not go into crisis.....
My feeling is that since the amygdala is likely involved, engaging with a MLCer further taxes his/her amygdala and stress hormones as well, thereby exacerbating this conditon.
Velika you are right, because my therapist (who is a neuroscientist) always told me to talk calmly to my H, to never be emotional and to use rational statements to him because any emotion would make things worse.
As you know I have collated lots and lots of information from MLC'ers and spouses from everywhere including here and I have read they are addicted to drama and highs which is why the fights with the OW are so addictive, it doesn't have to be a 'good' high, either.
So given what my therapist said and what I have read it makes sense to me.
Some have been likened to teenagers, I know my H acted like that at the beginning so if the LBS is also acting from emotion it adds fuel to the flame and I learnt very quickly it was me who kept getting burnt in the emotional meetings we had in the beginning.
That's why its best to leave them be as much as possible because they start to figure it out themselves and if they know when they want to come forward we are going to be calm, strong, and non emotive they wont feel so threatened.
Of course in some situations its a very tough ask, like your sitch this week, but you dealt with it amazingly well
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My suspicion is that MLC is an autoimmune disorder linked to gut health. I think that increased interest in gut-brain connection may help on this front.
He suffered from severe gut health issues that have gotten much worse since MLC began. One of my pet theories was that the initial mania and "high" he experienced was actually from introduction of new gut flora from OW. (Heh heh a "fecal transplant" if you will.) At bomb drop he looked amazing. His skin and eyes glowed; I could tell he felt not just elated but healthy and energetic.
My theory is that once this adjustment passes and their gut health becomes commingled, the issues have returned. He can no longer treat them with OW fecal transplant. Now he has been diagnosed with mega colon (linked to schizophrenia) and has aged very rapidly.
You may be right about the gut health thing. There is so much unknown about that but enough is known to know that it might be as important as brain chemistry to our health. There are something like 10k organisms living in our gut and we have no idea what they do.
Funnily, my husband has been suffering a lot of stomach aches, diarrhea etc too. I even told my MIL yesterday that i think it is because he is eating OW's cooking. I personally find that if I eat someone else's cooking for more than a day or two, I get sick, whether that is as a guest or from restaurants. You are exposed to different bacteria etc. when you eat from different sources.
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Some have been likened to teenagers, I know my H acted like that at the beginning so if the LBS is also acting from emotion it adds fuel to the flame and I learnt very quickly it was me who kept getting burnt in the emotional meetings we had in the beginning.
His behavior especially when their others are around and he encourages them to be this way too, reminds me of living in the dormitory in the first year of college. Everyone spent all their time making jokes at others' expense. I was so immature and I was really depressed that year of my life. I don't know how to really deal with it because he just then acts like I am being a spoil sport but really I know he is playing games and intentionally trying to get a rise out of us that I don't want to put up with it. I've distanced myself from these situations as much as possible and he actually cut them off himself which was a relief for a while but now he is allowing them to happen again.
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This looks interesting about gut health and depression: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/836260
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But then there are the wallowers who are not so addicted to drama and highs.
Their just too exhausted to do much of anything. ::)
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As a LBS with a Wallower, I agree with Thunder. I highly doubt there will be a one size fits all pill for MLC because there are different types and everyone is different.
Why not put the focus on PREVENTING MLC in the first place? not a pill after it happens.
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I'm convinced my H's MLC was hormonal. I think I mentioned I even saw him have hot flashes. I've had them so I recognized them right away. His chest and face would turn red, he would start to sweat, and he would turn down the heat and put cooler clothes on.
They didn't last long but I saw them for what they were.
So in my H's case, and only his, I really think if he had gotten treated for low T, with testosterone, he would have possibly not have had all the side effects of low T. Confusion, exhaustion, unhappiness and a few other things.
I wonder if anyone else has experienced this?
There was a poster named Smitty who hasn't been here in probably a few years. Her H got T treatment, and he improved immediately. If memory serves though, he got a new doctor who didn't think he needed it anymore, he stopped treatment - right back to replay. So yep, I do think there's, for at least some, a definite hormonal component (and serotonin is sometimes referred to as a hormone as well as a neurotransmitter).
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El,
Only trouble is how do you prevent low testosterone? Make men over 40 get tested every year?
Then we would need to educate people on parenting.
Then there are people who have avoidance personalities.
Narc personalities.
I wish we could prevent this crisis from happening. I just don't know how we can do that, except be the best parent we can be and if we see abuse, don't remain silent. Tell someone. Maybe save one child who could end up with MLC grow up healthy.
I find it hard to believe if a child is being abused someone doesn't know about it.
Finally educate our teachers to be more aware of abuse in the home and identify how abused kids act.
That's all I can think of.
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Hi Ready,
We must have been typing at the same time. :)
Thank you for that. I do believe with some MLCer's it could help them.
I think possibly if my H was also experiencing ED he would have gone to the doctor to get tested but he never experienced that so I guess I was the problem. ::)
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Thunder,
I don't feel low T is the problem
I don't see being a narc as the problem
I don't see an avoidance personalty as the problem
I'm not a doctor yet do have a lot of medical training. Many times things have alternative results than what the treatment was for. That's how I see the Low T treatments.
I feel becoming something like a narc is part of MLC. We SAY Avoidance personality yet I feel in many cases, the MLCer's brain was just too underdeveloped as a youth to handle what was going on. Shoot, even an adult brain would be too traumatized and unable to handle some cases I've read.
We should put more effort in saving the children from abuse, no matter what type.
I'll be doing my part by saving at least one from this MLC madness, by taking him from foster care and making his home a permanent home filled with love. What about anyone else?
Children are our future!
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I agree with you El, most MLCer's have more childhood issues that caused their MLC.
I was just talking about my MLCer and what I saw and experienced. I do believe his was more hormonal.
But they are all different, that's for sure. ::)
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Thunder,
I was under the understanding from my reading a MLC by definition really started from childhood. Anywhere from age 5 - 10. Horrific things happened in early childhood that were never addressed or healed.
Yes hormonal things happen that part is part of a MLC also.
Other than that it's a milder MLT, a normal transition that hormonal things happen as well.
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There definitely isn't a one size fits all MLC, you only have to read this board on an average night to see that........
As for treatment some MLC'ers have positive reactions to hormone treatment some don't, some have positive reaction to SSRI's and in some SSRI's can make them worse...
Its my belief, if its truly MLC (because some are not IMO) then if its not down to an hormonal issue, then its down to depression and that's why I think that if there was more publicity on other faces of depression I outlined in my previous post and if it was seen as just as acceptable to seek help for mental health as it is for physical health then some MLC could be prevented.
Because I believe there is a small window pre crisis, the potential MLC'er could be helped with therapy, once they are in crisis then they cant.
Thing is there is a stigma, certainly in the UK, around therapy. People are frightened to have any sort of mental health issue written on their medical records, which potential employers/insurance companies could see.
Then there is the stigma as being seen 'weak'...
Its all these sorts of issues that would have to be tackled IMO as far as prevention is concerned..........
Even if the cause is hormonal, getting a MLC'er to go to the doctors (particularly a man) and admit how they are feeling (and be honest about everything to a doctor)is near impossible.......and sometimes this is a chicken and egg situation as sometimes depression can cause hormones to go wacko and sometimes the other way round.....
BTW my H went to the docs twice about 6 months before he left because he had problems feeling his ejaculation......they found nothing, he had lots of blood tests at the time and there was no abnormal hormones then anyway, yet looking back he was heading into crisis with other behaviours he had at the time........he even said to me recently he thinks this problem is/was in his head.......
As he headed into crisis H was having problems sleeping, talking of feeling numb and foggy headed and other symptoms of what I now know to be Anhedonia, I never knew about this type of depression before, I didn't realise him wanting to work all the time was depression, I didn't realise withdrawl from people is depression...I do now.
would it have mattered if I had known he was suffering from anhedonia then? Not really because when he had started to 'act' out these symptoms it was already too late, he had started his affair with the OW........and was already at the beginning of his crisis. BUT if he himself had realised months earlier the feelings of unease he was feeling, the problems sleeping, the drinking too much, the fear of getting old, the dissatisfaction with his life...were all normal feelings at his time of life, if he had realised that he was getting depressed and that it might help to talk about these things etc.. maybe he would have got help like he did for his physical symptom effecting his sexual function.
So, as for my H I am pretty confident my H's crisis is firmly routed in childhood issues which brought forward a major depressive episode in Midlife and other physical problems he has had since are a result of his depression and abuse of his body (working excessive hours, drinking all the time etc)...
Others who suspect their spouses MLC are due to hormonal issues, may have seen a different set of behaviours pre full blown crisis
And Thunder you make a very interesting point...... there are those who may not be in crisis and it could be other things that are driving their behaviour like personality issues.....
But as for the thing about educating teachers to spot abuse, I think they already are (certainly all the teachers I have known and know are) BUT the thing is NOT all of the childhood issues centre around abuse.
Its down to something in their childhood which meant they missed some key development or coping skill.... it could be abandonment by a parent, the death of a parent, emotionally distant parents, a parent with an addiction or personality disorder..... things which disrupt childhood and are underlying.............My H performed well at school, was an exceptional sportsman playing for his school, county in football, swimming for the county,had trials for top football clubs and went on to be (to the outside world) a very successful tradesman...no-one could have spotted the volcano that would erupt when he got to 45........
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Hi Ready,
We must have been typing at the same time. :)
Thank you for that. I do believe with some MLCer's it could help them.
I think possibly if my H was also experiencing ED he would have gone to the doctor to get tested but he never experienced that so I guess I was the problem. ::)
;) Well for real, if we're looking for a cure, according to them, it would be a bus ticket for us out of their lives! ::)
Mine did have the ED, and I think that was the one symptom he definitely didn't want to discuss with a professional. Pride, shame, fear, you name it. That takes us back to likely the beginning of ALL symptoms. I'm sure on some level they knew *something* was up, even the ones who didn't seek medical help. And they are still the only ones who can face it.
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That's interesting about the anhedonia. I found this that you might be interested in reading:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181880/
My husband didn't have ED per se but he had complained of not enjoying sex for several years and he wasn't as active as would have liked and I told him that. He blamed it on me, but I always suspected he had a problem that he didn't want to admit so I didn't pressure him, and a few days ago he admitted he didn't want sex with me nor is he having much sex with the OW because he just "isn't interested in sex" and because of his "mood." Even though he had this fantasy a few months ago he was going to have lots of sex with the OW because he "wants sex every day." Well I never said no to him ever and I would have been happy with the every day or pretty much every day but he wasn't hearing any of it from me when I told him that. Now, you might think he is lying to me about the OW, but for certain reasons I am almost certain he is telling the truth.
They start to lose their abilities and they imagine they are capable of being Casanovas again if they just try another woman and then they find out the problem is them. You have to feel sorry for them at some level. Well, at least I do because this actually could play THE pivotal role in how his MLC plays itself out due to certain things about the situation. If things don't work out as he hopes, he's probably going to have to deal with a lot of self-blame and his depression WILL get worse.
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Must be frustrating to have the sex drive of a teenager, then have ED too?
Must be difficult.
1T I agree, as far as not necessarily 'abuse' yet some type of childhood issue that brought a great deal of distress that the MLCer wasn't able to handle at such an early age.
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From everything I've read a midlife crisis can be caused by many things.
An abusive childhood, debt problems for years, aging issues, hormones out of whack, unable to get over the terrible loss of a loved one, etc..
I don't think there is any one thing that causes it.
Some people go through a normal transition in their life when they get older and some don't and it turns into a crisis.
As far as an avoidance personality, I just read this:
Avoidant Personality:
If a person has a tendency to avoid conflict in their personal relationships, suffers from feelings of inadequacy, are emotionally distant and has low self – esteem they will find midlife transition harder to navigate. This personality type has a deep fear of feeling shame and rejection. Such feelings will keep them from seeking help should their emotions become overwhelming. More than likely, they will run from their problems instead of trying to find solutions to them. It’s this personality type that normally ends up in divorce court during midlife.
Whether there are external factors that make the process more difficult or not, there is an internal process that is gone through. If a person lacks understanding of the process, he may find himself making irrational decisions he may later regret such as leaving a job, divorcing his spouse and throwing away the security that he built during the first part of his life.
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Thunder,
Most of the things you listed are what happens after a MLC starts. Some of what you listed are the trigger to start the MLC in motion in mid life.
There is something that didn't develop correctly from childhood is the cause of a MLC because of abuse, rape, abandonment etc.
This is why they regress in age, to heal those childhood traumas they just weren't able to at such a young age when it happened.
Their young brains couldn't handle it, and after the trigger that set them off for the MLC, they still can't handle yet, until they become emotionally strong enough to. That is the reason for all of the 'running and avoiding.
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Only trouble is how do you prevent low testosterone? Make men over 40 get tested every year?
If the problem is testosterone, the tests would have to begin earlier than at 40. Mr J and Hoss (Ready2's husband) were on their mid 30's.
I don't think the problem with all MLCers is testosterone, but see no problem in say, having men from 35 onwars being tested every year.
For me, MLC comes from excessive stress and all that it leads to, including depression. I also don't think MLCers are solving any issues while in MLC.
During my very mild crisis I don't recall solving any issues nor that the crisis has anything to do with issues. What I recall was that the pre Mr J BD months, Bd and the following months were extremely stressful.
I find it possible that a sudden, life altering event may lead a stressed and depressed person into crisis point. Depression does not allow to see things clear. Stress makes it even more confusing. Depressed people often feel there is no other way than to run.
Like Trustandlove I have also noticed that there is more awareness being drawn toward male depression.
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The only way to cure this, is after the MLCer heals all their issues after they are emotionally ready to.
There is no magic pill or anything that can do that for them.
Or prevent it from happening in the first place.
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I agree Anjae, the T testing would need to start maybe in their 30's or even their 20's.
It would be a big study so it will probably never happen..in our live time anyway. They first need to figure out MLC is real. :(
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I agree El, some are triggers that start a MLC. While some occur afterwards. There are many reasons for an MLC to happen.
Sometimes a spouses MLC will even trigger the other spouse to go into a MLC.
Mysterious stuff. ::)
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I'm not convinced that the trigger and the manifestation are necessarily related.
For my husband, there is a clear and defined and explicit issue that is behind the actions he has taken. He made other excuses, but ultimately there is a specific issue. Of that I am 100% certain.
How he has manifested the MLC is very typical. But what I wonder is did the brain chemistry push him to look at this issue as something he had no choice but to solve. Or did the steps he took to solve this issue push his brain chemistry to be what it is?
I mean think of obsessive-compulsive disorder. OCD has a specific brain issue behind it, but in each person it manifests itself in different behaviors. So maybe my husband's brain chemistry changed and he found an issue to latch on to.
More questions than answers.
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More questions than answers.
And that's our problem. If you read back on any of the brain/research threads, there are many potential pieces of the puzzle, but it would be great if someone would research the big picture. That's the enormous frustration.
But you're right T&L, I too have noticed that here in NZ. A big push in recent years to educated and destigmatise depression and suicide. That is a very good thing.
Here's hoping it one day extends to the acting out behaviours that we have had to navigate all of these years.
Nearly 7 years into this now, I spend very little time trying to find answers these days. I'm kind of at the acceptance of the mess phase. But it took me a long, long time to get there.
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kikki,
Thank you. In the long run it really doesn't matter how or why. It really doesn't. Ot doesn't even matter what you call it.
It just happened and all we can really do is accept it and move on. We can not help them or change anything.
Researching is good for us in the beginning so we learn what is going on and we learn it has nothing to do with it us, other than that all we are doing is needlessly wasting our time. Putting the focus on them instead of us.
They are not putting time and energy into us.
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Exactly Thunder, I'm with you on the self focus part being what's best for us as the LBS.
We can drive ourselves silly as unscientific LBS's grabbing straws. It won't change a thing in the least or help us (or them) heal faster.
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Depending on literature, testosterone levels peak at 25 to 35. So after a certain age levels in all men decline.
Only 20% of men over 60 however have levels considered as ´too low´.
However, there is no clear definition / quantity when levels are considered as ´too low`.
All this is still quite mushy however it is mostly like this with hormones.
Like for female menopause however acceptance is higher, and women know the symptoms and kind of ´expect´ them, knowing some women will suffer more than others also. But if at a certain age symptoms start, we know what to deal with, know the origin as being internal and due to hormones. A bit like with PMS - we still might be irritable and emotional too at certain days but at least with hindsight we ´know the culprit´ and don´t blame our partner. But due to women´s hormonal cycle we are usually more used to identify this, also with menopause (whereas teenage girls still need to learn this). Men are less used to listen to their bodies and the influence they have on their moods, male menopause is quite a new topic so it takes its time. Also women have internalised and accepted that what is most associated with menopause, i.e. no more being able to have children, it is less associated with lower sex drive (also this is also true for a certain percentage) whereas lower testosterone for men is so much linked to sexual performance it will be a difficult subject (even in times of viagra)...
Besides we don´t even yet have an ideal treatment for female menopause yet (hormone replacement might be linked to cancer later etc. ) so it will take quite some time to get a male menopause treatment, men knowing about it and readily and won´t help us LBS now. Except to maybe stabilise returned MLClers?
I do think testosterone plays a role (and for female MLClers maybe menopause) plus several other factors. And they all need to be treated - like if a MLC can be started or enhanced by testosterone, some men might take medication and that might be enough to keep them into transitioning over this difficult age, other more avoidant or more narcisstic personalities or somebody with more FOO (heavy abuse) might not be able to accept they have to take medication, or be more vulnerable and still react the same way.
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I agree with you Lost.
Somewhere on these threads is a very informative podcast on hormones.
I was intrigued to learn that something like 30-40% of men (don't quote me, it's a long time since I listened to it) get one or more of the classic 'female' symptoms of menopause - hot flushes, lack of sleep etc. That percentage could be well under reported.
The other thing is the effect stress has on testosterone levels. A sudden stressor, such as the death of a loved one, job loss etc reduces the testosterone levels suddenly and dramatically. This apparently then has a sudden, negative affect on many body systems, including the brain, causing inflammation and depression and out of character behaviours and thinking (amongst other things - gut health changes etc).
Research has also shown that some but not all people are more susceptible to mental illnesses of all kinds and potentially have less effective coping mechanisms from childhood stress, than others. Not all. Some are able to sustain resilience throughout life (? genetics, they are not yet certain). But in others, set off inflammatory processes and brain changes etc, that last a lifetime.
My sister in law who is both a GP and a jungian analyst said that they think one of the main differences is whether the child has one adult around them that is able to truly listen and empathise.
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kikki,
Thank God someone else said that out loud!
When I tell people about my H having hot flashes they look at me like I have 2 heads.
He definately had them. :-\
I have also read they can get confusion, irritability, moodiness, bad concentration, sexual problems, forgetfulness and depression.
Mine ticked every one except the sexual (performance) problem.
He still has some concentration and confusion problems but they are much better.
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When I tell people about my H having hot flashes they look at me like I have 2 heads.
He definately had them. :-\
I have also read they can get confusion, irritability, moodiness, bad concentration, sexual problems, forgetfulness and depression.
Thunder, I saw hot flushes with my MLCer as well. (amongst other things).
I suspect that a lot of people don't even visually register hot flushes in men, because they are not expecting to see them.
I remember being amazed as a nursing student, listening to a male lecturer who was informing us that PMT was nothing more than women being overly emotional. Well, we can become overly emotional when our physical symptoms are denied >:( :-\
For the medical profession to accept in recent years that hormones and hormonal changes and fluctuations have enormous effects on our bodies and minds, it really was a long time coming.
I guess we have to be a bit more patient, waiting for them all to catch up on the science that has been emerging regarding the effects on male bodies and minds.
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Sometimes a spouses MLC will even trigger the other spouse to go into a MLC.
Mysterious stuff. ::)
There is no mystery here. That was happened to me. It makes sense. All the stress of dealing with a spouse that is already in MLC we need to remember MLC stars before BD), coupled with other factors, is enough to trigger a crisis.
I don't know if menopause is always linked to female MLC. My crisis happened years before any peri-menopause signs showed. Now that I am heading towards menopause, I see no signs of MLC.
I have also read they can get confusion, irritability, moodiness, bad concentration, sexual problems, forgetfulness and depression.
This is what Jed Diamond calls Irritable Male Syndrome. Diamond has also written about male menopause. So, it is not such a secret. Maybe more a case of different names to the same thing.
It does matter what causes MLC. The way of approaching it for research is different if the causes are hormonal (or better chemical, since hormones are chemicals) and/or psychologic.
Doctors tend to be a few years behind scientists and it tends to take them a while to catch up and accept things that are already known on other fields.
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I don't know if menopause is always linked to female MLC. My crisis happened years before any peri-menopause signs showed. Now that I am heading towards menopause, I see no signs of MLC.
Your crisis seems to have been a reaction to the stress and impact of your H's severe crisis.
Different catalyst, different age and therefore not mid life as such.
This is what Jed Diamond calls Irritable Male Syndrome. Diamond has also written about male menopause. So, it is not such a secret. Maybe more a case of different names to the same thing.
Not a secret to most of us, but Jed Diamond will be an unknown to most of the world. And most people with new thinking are disparaged by 'the establishment' which seems to have the current power and upper hand. I don't understand that thinking, but seems to be how most of the world operates and has done so for a long time.
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Your crisis seems to have been a reaction to the stress and impact of your H's severe crisis.
Different catalyst, different age and therefore not mid life as such.
Fair enough, But, then, since he was 36 when he left, Mr J's crisis is also not a midlife one. The trigger for his one was the death of his paternal grandmother, late Spring or early Summer 2005, when he was still 35. At the time, I ddin't notice anything too strange. But as the months went by, he become more agitated, depressed and stressed.
So, what do we call the crisis of people in their early or mid 30's? A life crisis? A life crisis, that, in some cases, lasts well into midlife?
'The establishment' fears the new. Even if, often, the new is not so new. What Jed Diamond says is nothing new. Yet, it seems it is not yet reaching enough people. Maybe the many voices who have been speaking about male depression (and male menopause) will be at last heard.
GP's and other doctors should pay attention, but, they don't seem to be. Or most don't seem to.
In the meantime, we are all, LBS and MLCers, dealing with the consequences of these severe male depressions (regardless of the man's age and what caused it).
One thing I have noticed in Mr J is that, while in crisis, he went from being his normal, well kept self, to a scruffi man. Until mid 2009, he looked the same and had the same care with himself. From them on, it has been an up and down, mostly a down.
The other day, I was keeping paperwork and photos and I come across some Mr J photos (real photos, from before MLC). One of them is from one of his pre MLC depressions. Guess what, he looks the same, and his as ungroomed as he has been since he went downhill in MLC.
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kikki,
Thank you. In the long run it really doesn't matter how or why. It really doesn't. Ot doesn't even matter what you call it.
It just happened and all we can really do is accept it and move on. We can not help them or change anything.
Researching is good for us in the beginning so we learn what is going on and we learn it has nothing to do with it us, other than that all we are doing is needlessly wasting our time. Putting the focus on them instead of us.
They are not putting time and energy into us.
In my case how does matter. Because my husband's midlife crisis had a specific trigger that was explicitly shared by him and discussed between us and he went into it believing that what he is doing is for OUR benefit because it could solve the perceived problem that triggered it, and I accepted what was happening because he convinced me it was for our benefit, and he went into it not wanting to hurt or humiliate me, this was while he still had some logic and stability in his mind. He believed me to be a kind and devoted wife who "never wronged" him, helped him with anything he asked me to help him with, and he never wanted to leave me. I was his best friend, he trusted me more than anyone. Yes, he said all this after the MLC started but before the replay started. None of this was new, I always knew he felt this way about me, but my point is that after he already knew what his issue was and what he was going to do about it, his feelings for me had NOT changed. He asked me for patience, asked me for space, but asked for it in a kind and polite way and still told me he would be with me forever. Even as he started to fall over the edge he still at one point said to me "WE need this" in a very imploring voice.
Then he just went down the rabbit hole, he won't even use the word WE anymore. A month after he was asking me for patience and space he would suddenly start shouting, "Leave, just leave." He's become really horrible in his behavior toward me. Cold aloof, almost terrified of me. Very touch and go. Sometimes literally touch and go for a minute. I really don't think he expected he would behave like this with me and perhaps that is part of the reason he is seems so depressed now. He's not getting any highs out of this.
Either he fooled me like he never fooled me before (and believe me I could always tell when he was lying, it's in his eyes and his voice, and he wasn't lying) or his mind is not working properly. But if he really was fooling me, he would have done what he has done behind my back and then one day I would have woken up and he would have moved on with his life and I would be out in the street. Because he could probably have pulled it off, but instead he has been completely transparent in everything. Or the easiest thing for him to have done would be to divorce me, whenever I became too much of a pain in the ass. Divorce would be quite easy for him where we live and with regards to our circumstances. He'd lose nothing except what I might be able to help with in the future. So much easier than it would be for most of you where you live.
So yeah it does matter why. If he had plotted all this in a cold-blooded, methodical manner, do you think I would stay with him for a minute? Of course not. Financially I don't need him. We don't have children that I would want to stay just for them. He has nothing on my head to keep me against my will.
If something snapped in his mind chemically, and his behavior is due to something he can't control, then I am willing to be patient and give him the space he needs for as long as he needs it. But because I truly believe there is something medical underpinning his behavior, I will not leave him because of HIM. If I were to leave him in the future, it would be because I simply could not bear the situation anymore. It will be because of me, if it happens. Because I need to get away for my own health.
I'm here because I love him, I liked my life with him, and I believe once he works his way through this that we will actually have a better life. Yes, I am severely depressed and lonely right now, but the healthy man I used to know is worth it. His wacky behavior now is unacceptable, but I actually have seen some good changes in him as well and I believe they will stay, so who is not to say we will have a better future?
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Fair enough, But, then, since he was 36 when he left, Mr J's crisis is also not a midlife one. The trigger for his one was the death of his paternal grandmother, late Spring or early Summer 2005, when he was still 35. At the time, I ddin't notice anything too strange. But as the months went by, he become more agitated, depressed and stressed.
So, what do we call the crisis of people in their early or mid 30's? A life crisis? A life crisis, that, in some cases, lasts well into midlife?
I don't know, but I would guess that the only difference is that whatever a life crisis is, most of our spouses needed the addition of those mid life hormonal changes to throw them completely off balance. I presume that is the only variable here. We're all dealing with the same devastating effects, no matter their ages.
Changing4Ever. It's entirely up to you what you choose to do, how you choose to do it, and for how long. It's also entirely up to you to change your mind in the future as well.
We each have our own experiences and our own unique situations that we are dealing with.
Yes, it mattered a great deal to me too. I married a good man. We have a fantastic life together, and a lovely family. But his extremely explosive crisis has destroyed that, and after 7 long years, I am walking as far away as possible.
You do what you need to do and what you feel is right. You don't need anyone's blessing to do that. Just yours.
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Hi Anjae,
I would say if yours and Mr J's crisis were not in midlife, and had no childhood issues, it's sounds to me more of some sort of transition. Not a MLC.
Plus you said yours was short right? Yours was definitely not a MLC.
I tried to write on this last night yet we have a really bad storm here.
You've been fortunate!
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Elegance, lenght does not determine MLC. RCR's husband has a short MLC (short is always short in MLC terms). So did the spouses of other HS members.
For me, chidlhood issues are not the reason for MLC, so the exitence, of not, of those, is not what makes a MLC.
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I believe stayed's H's MLC was pretty short too, wasn't it? I don't think he had childhood issues either, that I remember.
Not sure what his was from.
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C4E, I think what you wrote is very important. My MLC-H is a partner at a law firm. Legally we could have been divorced a year ago. He is now expecting a baby and we are still not legally divorced.
I believe like you that this is medical. In my case because of the baby I know we cannot reconcile. So I am not standing so much as trying to understand what has happened.
There are a lot of truisms that are repeated in this site. I think some are worth questioning.
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Anjae and Thunder,
I don't see a need to debate and you can think anything you want yet RCR and HB agree with me.
The length as has to do with how severe the childhood issues were and how fast the MLCer was able to work them out.
If you don't want to think it has anything to do with childhood traumas, then that wouldn't apply to you.
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I've read a lot about childhood issues being a factor, but I have yet to see a clear and convincing example of it. HB's articles about "children of the issues" are very vague to me.
I can imagine childhood issues playing some role in my husband's case but without others giving really good examples of such cases I have yet to be convinced of it.
Velika, Why is the baby a barrier to reconciliation?
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I've read a lot about childhood issues being a factor, but I have yet to see a clear and convincing example of it. HB's articles about "children of the issues" are very vague to me.
I can imagine childhood issues playing some role in my husband's case but without others giving really good examples of such cases I have yet to be convinced of it.
I think some of the "children" part enters with who they pick as the affair partner. Many start as confidants. It is someone they are drawn to when they are still able to function better and at least initially offer a way to explore/fantasize about other aspects of their personality. ("Shadow persona," "anima.")
I think this in a sense "sets up" what unfolds when the eight ball hits. (Eight all = neurological tipping point.)
My MLC-H and his MLC-sister both had "accidental" pregnancies in MLC when their child/youngest child was the same age as my husband was when his mom had a shotgun wedding to an abusive stepfather. In my mind this is definitely some type of unconscious reenactment of very specific wounding.
My MLC-SIL "corrected" her mom's mistake by terminating the pregnancy, but it did not end MLC. She did not work through her issue, in other words.
I had a small crisis in my early twenties that was brought about by taking birth control pills. While not extreme/dangerous, I did things that were both out of character and totally in line with my own issues -- because I was still me, with my own history. When I stopped taking the pills, I felt almost instantly better and made better choices for myself. I did not resolve anything during this "crisis"/adverse medical reaction. In fact like many former MLCers I feel embarrassed about much of it -- and my actions were mild in comparison.
Velika, Why is the baby a barrier to reconciliation?
I don't think my husband will ever recover, based on his family history. But aside from that, I think there was a tipping point where he did too much damage. I don't think I could ever trust him again, and much of this has to do not with his actions when he had clearly lost his mind but to his actions leading up to that, when he was able to pretend so well. This for me is actually worse in many ways.
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Erik Erickson is well known for his 8 stages of psychosocial development. He outlines specific developmental tasks that need to be attained in order for a person to "successfully" complete a certain stage of life. As part of my nursing education, I had one course that was totally about these stages and how they are impacted by illness.
Just because a person appears to have had a "good" childhood, may not necessarily mean that their needs were always met, or that some critical thing happened that perhaps they are not even aware of that has somehow led to this needing to be resolved later in their lives.
For example, did the mother suffer from post party depression and wasn't able to meet the needs of her newborn. Studies that were done with baby monkeys who were removed from their mothers, even though they were adequately fed, did not thrive. Those whose formula was given by a fake monkey but one that was soft and furry gained weight and thrived compared to those who were given milk alone.
How was toilet training handled? Was the child sexually abused and have they subconsciously buried that abuse? Did a grandparent or other family member die...how was that handled? What kinds of punishment were inflicted on the child? What kind of cultural restraints were placed on the child...eg: boys don't cry.
In the very early years of infancy and childhood, many many things could have happened that arrested the development in some way or another...even in families that appear "perfect".
We don't know what effect this type of trauma could have inflicted upon them. We know that severe trauma such as rape or war does cause biochemical changes in the brain that leads to permanent changes, causing symptoms of post traumatic stress syndrome. When the very young brain is developing, perhaps even in utero, many factors could impact them that could cause them to crack later in life.
So many of our spouses had ED issues, so many experienced a crisis after the death of a parent...there is a link perhaps. How were their bodies considered? If they touched their genitalia as an infant, how did a caregiver respond to that..was their hand slapped? Were they scolded and told they were bad?
Those are things we will never know about family of origin issues but they are things that could explain some of the characteristics that occur later in life.
The first couple of years of development is perhaps the most important time our lives.....things that are set in those early years become permanent fixtures of who we are.
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Absolutely agree xyz.
And what is trauma to one child, may or may not have the same degree of trauma attached to it for another child in the family. Different personalities view the world in different ways.
One large trauma, can be as destructive as many many little ones chipping away.
Family dysfunction can easily be buried behind large public smiles.
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I don't know, I think if this were related simply to childhood trauma (and especially what you are describing here), then we would see this all the time and everywhere.
I believe that in many instances on this board, the "childhood trauma" was actually the MLC of a parent, and that this repeats not because of psychological reasons but for physiological ones.
Whatever happens, I think the brain becomes overwhelmed and cannot function, especially in the frontotemporal lobe. If this were not the case then I think we would see more instance of freak out at bomb drop and then a return home after a few months of perspective/consideration. Instead, many grow worse and worse and increasingly unrecognizable until the condition either stabilizes or improves.
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I am certainly not saying childhood or adolescent trauma can't cause a MLC, it sure can!
But there are many theories out there as to the cause, by psychoanalists and psychologists. I've read a lot of them.
You need to keep in mind neither RCR or HB claim to have any medical training, nor do they claim to be experts. They did extensive research just like we are.
Just an example:
A midlife crisis is experienced between the ages of 40 and 60. It was first identified by the psychologist Carl Jung and is a normal part of the maturing process. Most people will experience some form of emotional transition during that time of life. A transition that might cause them to take stock in where they are in life and make some needed adjustments to the way they live their life. Most seem to come through the process smoothly without making major life changes.
For some, a midlife crisis is more complicated.
3 external factors that may cause midlife to be problematic for some people are:
1 . Debt:
It is easier to accumulate debt due to the availability of credit cards and loans. We are bombarded by credit card companies and it is easy to find yourself with large balances owed. We live in a society where it is commonplace to be living above our means. Finding yourself middle aged, in debt and facing retirement can add stress to an already stressful time in life. A normal reaction would be to seek help from a debt management company or consolidate your loans. A person who is finding it difficult emotionally during midlife might find it easier to walk away from their family in order to rid himself of what he feels is the cause of all the debt.
2 . Significant Loss:
The death of a parent or family member can cause grief, which is difficult enough to come to terms with, without having to also cope with the feelings of a midlife transition. Put the loss of a loved one with the feelings that accompany midlife and the whole process becomes bewildering and overwhelming.
3 . Avoidant Personality:
If a person has a tendency to avoid conflict in their personal relationships, suffers from feelings of inadequacy, are emotionally distant and has low self – esteem they will find midlife transition harder to navigate. This personality type has a deep fear of feeling shame and rejection. Such feelings will keep them from seeking help should their emotions become overwhelming. More than likely, they will run from their problems instead of trying to find solutions to them. It’s this personality type that normally ends up in divorce court during midlife.
Whether there are external factors that make the process more difficult or not, there is an internal process that is gone through. If a person lacks understanding of the process, he may find himself making irrational decisions he may later regret such as leaving a job, divorcing his spouse and throwing away the security that he built during the first part of his life.
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I had a brief but somewhat self-reflective conversation with my husband about an hour ago. The things he said got me doing some research as to what would explain some of his odd thinking. I came across a different part of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex. The dysfunction of this part of the brain I could see explaining a lot of the MLC behavior. It would be interesting if you all were to google it and see what you think. I am not even going to speculate about the chemistry of it but if its capabilities to do what it is supposed to do were redced to me could explain a lot. I don't want to say too much now as I'd be interested in your own theories without being affected by my own.
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It explains a lot about depression. :)
I would suppose AD drugs maybe target that part of the brain.
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I came across a different part of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex. The dysfunction of this part of the brain I could see explaining a lot of the MLC behavior.
Amongst these threads is my googling on that exact brain area. It really hits the nail on the head for me too.
Research has shown that childhood trauma puts people at risk for non coping behaviours and mental/personality disorders of all kinds.
Chicken or egg - is the cause biologically genetic, or purely environmentally triggered?
I suspect both.
Epigenetics and Bruce Lipton - his thinking is interesting to read about
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Research has shown that childhood trauma puts people at risk for non coping behaviours and mental/personality disorders of all kinds.
I don't disagree that childhood trauma can play a part, but I don't think that is valid for all mood/personality disorders.
Head trauma, from accident or other, can also be a factor. Or it can be how the person's brain is wired from birth.
We know that there are risk factors, but we still don't know enough. Also, an illness can come from different sources.
Chicken or egg - is the cause biologically genetic, or purely environmentally triggered?
I suspect both
Who knows? The only thing we seem to be able to spot is that stress, a lot of it can lead to MLC and if not all, most of our MLCer were under a lot of stress at BD.
RCR and HB did not went the biology/neurobiology route. They are more in tune with psycology, psychoanalysis and development stages. Even if, at least RCR, acknowledges and talks a lot about depression.
Each contribution is useful and allows for debate.
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Agree Anjae
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I agree that all of it is in the soup, and to what degree involves the individual. That's a softer stance toward the childhood issues than what I took initially. The more research that comes to light (and the neurotransmitter stuff is still relatively new science, which is why it wasn't part of the discourse before), the deeper we go. Like peeling back the layers of an onion, the inner core does not negate the outer that we initially saw. I'm grateful for what HB and RCR have done, and it inspires me to do my own research, too. I don't think either woman intended to be a means to an end.
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Progress
Midlife Crisis Takes TIME
By Kenda-Ruth Stumpf
In Brief, MLC is about unresolved issues from childhood or adolescence. The MLCer must now resolve these issues and reintegrate the fragmented portions of the Self. Since these are issues of a younger person, they need to be resolved by that younger Self--thus the MLCer will regress in age.
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/the-children-of-the-mid-lifers-issues/
https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/a-deeper-look-at-the-children-of-the-mid-lifers-issues/
There is more in the MLCers Acceptance stage. I must have read everything written on MLC at least 50 times . Are you kidding me? lol Have you seen the state my H is in? I HAD to read on it! No need for debate,at least not for me :)
I would suggest if the MLCer is not doing these things then it's a probability it's just not MLC.
This site is about standing for our spouse while they go through MLC. Self Focus.
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For me it's not the depression so much that it explains, but rather the muddled thinking. Others have mentioned the prefontal cortex and the amygdala. These two parts are responsible for emotions. But the ACC regulates emotional conflict between various options. And we have to admit there is a lot of emotional conflict in the MLCers that isn't getting regulated. Hence all the confusion.
The ACC plays a role in appropriate responses. to a lot of stimuli In taking appropriate decisions. Read this section of the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex#Functions
And read this too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647221/
If you think about these functions being impaired, then the saying "Don't believe anything they say and half of what they do" makes sense.
There's an example I saw in my husband the other day. He was complaining about something and talking about how he wanted a situation to be (it didn't involve me). Literally 2-3 minutes later he took an action opposite of what one would have expected him to take if he indeed wanted the situation to be as he said he wanted it. My jaw dropped to the floor. There was a total disconnect between what he wanted and what he did.
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Ready, I am very grateful to RCR for all the research she has done, too.
I guess we can only go by what we experience and what we read. If childhood issues are the problem with some then so be it. If the MLCer has no childhood issues (and some don't) then their MLC is caused by something else.
With all the different medical experts out there not one of them have come up with only one reason for this. Maybe some day with all this research people will have more concrete answers.
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With all the different medical experts out there not one of them have come up with only one reason for this. Maybe some day with all this research people will have more concrete answers.
The tendency in research is to find there is no simple concrete answer to anything much, especially in brain and behaviour.
I don't think MLC is just one thing. There are too many differences. So looking for a cause, or defining this as one thing, is an anomaly.
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The reason there is just not one reason is because each MLCer has had different things in their life that brought them to this point.
Sometimes things were just so bad, the MLCer's brain may have just shut it out, repressed the memory where it would take much longer to recover from.
Or
If there are NO childhood issues, then it's not MLC. It's something else. MLC is about finally healing childhood issues.
Are there threads on what people can do to better there mirror work? Or GAL suggestions? Isn't this site about the LBS, and not the MLCer? What about learning new ways Detaching? I wonder, just how detached are we if we spend valuable LBS time 'debating' MLC?
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El, if that is your opinion that's ok.
But all of us with MLCer's have our opinions, too. :)
That's what we are all sharing here. Our opinions by our research and experiences. No two MLCer's are the same.
My opinion is it's not so black and white. Not enough research has been done to say it's only one thing.
But if you're convinced it's from childhood issues only then I respect your opinion.
I want to respect everyone's opinions. That's how we learn.
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As I've told you before Thunder, I don't speak on opinions. That goes against my culture.
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Yes El, I do understand that, but this is a Discussion thread.
A discussion group is a group of individuals with similar interest who gather either formally or informally to bring up ideas, solve problems or give comments.
One element of conversation is discussion: sharing opinions on subjects that are thought of during the conversation. In polite society the subject changes before discussion becomes dispute or controversial.. For example, if theology is being discussed, no one is insisting a particular view be accepted.
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With all the different medical experts out there not one of them have come up with only one reason for this. Maybe some day with all this research people will have more concrete answers.
The tendency in research is to find there is no simple concrete answer to anything much, especially in brain and behaviour.
I don't think MLC is just one thing. There are too many differences. So looking for a cause, or defining this as one thing, is an anomaly.
Thank you for the reminder on this, Mermaid. Even this far in it sometimes gets easy to forget that we're not looking for the solution to a math problem. I can thank MLC for helping me discover a love for science, though (silver lining? ;) ).
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Yes El, I do understand that, but this is a Discussion thread.
A discussion group is a group of individuals with similar interest who gather either formally or informally to bring up ideas, solve problems or give comments.
One element of conversation is discussion: sharing opinions on subjects that are thought of during the conversation. In polite society the subject changes before discussion becomes dispute or controversial.. For example, if theology is being discussed, no one is insisting a particular view be accepted.
And that's what makes this such a great forum, and why even as detached from the MLCer as I am, I still come here. I love the people, and how the tone of this place makes it comfortable for everyone to stay here. Great description, T.
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Are there threads on what people can do to better there mirror work? Or GAL suggestions?
Yes, there are,
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4287.0 - How To Do Mirror-Work + Self Care
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4215.0 - Steps to good mind
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=3774.0 - GAL Ideas
There are also many threads on all types issues in the Archives as well as on the main board. Just select the discussion, blue mirror, pink heart or green monster icon.
But this thread is called Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research. It is to debate those issues, it is not even to discuss MLC per se. It is to debate and post articles on Biochemistry, Neurotransmitters, and Brain Research. So, childhood issues of the MLCer do not belong on this thread. There are threads for that.
We have a thread for all kinds of discussions: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7571.0 Please be so kind to debate matter that do not pertain to this thread matter there. Thank you.
Changing, Trustandlove, Ready2 and anyone else reading along. I put your last post from this thread on the Discussion Thread. Please lets try and leave this thread to its subject matter and debate other issues there on or where else more to the point.l Thank you.
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Anjae, I have to disagree that childhood issues do not have a place on this thread for indeed childhood issues affect the brain and are part of the possibilities that contribute, for I don't believe that there is only one cause but a multiple of factors that are involved in the development of this crisis.
However, I can understand why this thread should be kept to scientific research relating to Biochemistry, neurotransmitters and brain research.
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I agree with Anjae and have noticed that this thread in particular often ends up with a debate about whether there is a neurological basis for the the behaviors observed in MLC.
Unfortunately, this debate is not based in neuroscience or biochemistry. It is based on a Jungian/Ericksonean idea/assumption of MLC as a life transition. (I know there is reseach on how childhood trauma affects the developing brain, I mean the assumption that MLC is a process or "journey" rather than a result of neurological shift/change/damage/malfunction.)
Because of this, someone will often post something interesting about the brain (as C4E has done) and this is followed by a debate about origins of MLC that are not based in neuroscience.
This is a great discussion of course but I think the original purpose of the thread is lost and it is harder to find information in it.
I think most of us know a) MLC is an umbrella term for a spectrum of behaviors; b) Not everyone on this forum is observing the same behaviors; c) Not everyone believes this is physiological in nature; d) Because this is poorly understood we cannot rely on published studies and instead must look at better understood conditions that manifest in similar ways.
I really respect the tone and of course posters here, so my comments are simply regarding the content of the posts.
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I'd like to concur with the posters above that this particular thread is about biological aspects of brain science and I'd like to see it continue that way. Nearly five years into my journey, this is one of only two threads I come back to read (this and "MLC in the News"). As a single mom with limited time for online pursuits, my personal opinion is that it is frustrating to sift through debates to get to the information I came here for.
On another note, I think this may be the podcast Kikki referenced a few pages back: http://holyhormones.com/mens-health/andropause/menalive-author-jed-diamond-phd-supporting-men-and-the-women-who-love-them-on-holy-hormones-honey-october-8/
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Timely discussion. Yesterday afternoon, D told me ex-H is being unfriended on FB for his lack of ability to filter what he says/types. This reminded me that I had seen something linking lack of verbal filter (verbal dysdecorum) and neurological conditions. As we've said over and over, no two MLCs are alike, but this describes many of my ex's symptoms:
Psychopathology of Frontal Lobe Syndromes
Michael H. Thimble, F.R.C.P., F.R.C. Psych
11 Oct 2016
One of the specific behavior deficits following frontal lobe damage is attention disorder, patients showing distractibility and poor attention. They present with poor memory, sometimes referred to as "forgetting to remember." The thinking of patients with frontal lobe injury tends to be concrete, and they may show perseveration and stereotypy of their responses. The perseveration, with inability to switch from one line of thinking to another, leads to difficulties with arithmetic calculations, such as serial sevens or carryover subtraction.
An aphasia is sometimes seen, but this is different from both Wernicke's and Broca's aphasia. Luria (9) referred to it as dynamic aphasia. Patients have well-preserved motor speech and no anomia. Repetition is intact, but they show difficulty in propositionizing, and active speech is severely disturbed. Luria suggested that this was due to a disturbance in the predictive function of speech, that which takes part in structuring sentences. The syndrome is similar to that form of aphasia referred to as transcortical motor aphasia. Benson (10) also discusses the "verbal dysdecorum" of some frontal lobe patients. Their language lacks coherence, their discourse is socially inappropriate and disinhibited, and they may confabulate.
Other features of frontal lobe syndromes include reduced activity, particularly a diminution of spontaneous activity, lack of drive, inability to plan ahead, and lack of concern. Sometimes associated with this are bouts of restless, aimless uncoordinated behavior. Affect may be disturbed. with apathy, emotional blunting, and the patient showing an indifference to the world around him. Clinically, this picture can resemble a major affective disorder with psychomotor retardation, while the indifference bears occasional similarity to the "belle indifference" noted sometimes with hysteria.
In contrast, on other occasions, euphoria and disinhibition are described. The euphoria is not that of a manic condition, having an empty quality to it. The disinhibition can lead to marked abnormalities of behavior, sometimes associated with outbursts of irritability and aggression. So-called witzelsucht has been described, in which patients show an inappropriate facetiousness and a tendency to pun.
Some authors have distinguished between lesions of the lateral frontal cortex, most closely linked to the motor structures of the brain, which lead to disturbances of movement and action with perseveration and inertia, and lesions of the orbital and medial areas. The latter are interlinked with limbic and reticular systems, damage to which leads to disinhibition and changes of affect. The terms "pseudodepressed" and "pseudopsychopathic" have been used to describe these two syndromes." A third syndrome, the medial frontal syndrome, is also noted, marked by akinesia, associated with mutism, gait disturbances, and incontinence. The features of these differing clinical pictures have been listed by Cummings, (12) as shown in Table I. In reality, clinically, most patients display a mixture of syndromes.
Orbitofrontal syndrome (disinhibited)
Disinhibited, impulsive behavior (pseudopsychopathic)
Inappropriate jocular affect, euphoria
Emotional lability
Poor judgment and insight
Distractibility
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Interesting neuroscience developments:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/16/portable-brain-scanning-helmet-could-be-future-for-rapid-brain-injury-assessments - Portable brain-scanning helmet could be future for rapid brain injury assessments
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/02/alzheimers-treatment-within-reach-after-successful-drug-trial-amyloid-plaques-bace1 - Alzheimer's treatment within reach after successful drug trial
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For anyone who is not as clever as Anjae, Velika and others on here and would be overwhelmed by more scientific books on the subject
I can recommend a really good book which helps you understand how various parts of the brain work in depression and addiction..
Its written by a guy who had depression and went through various addictions to become a developmental psychologist and researcher of neuroscience and he tells his story and in between explains what was happening to his brain and what the various points do...
I found it easy to absorb and see how this relates to the way the brain may work in MLC..
The book is called "Memories of an addicted brain" and its by Marc Lewis
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This is both amazing and scary: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/10/scientists-identify-parts-of-brain-involved-in-dreaming - Scientists identify parts of brain involved in dreaming
"What’s more, changes in brain activity have been found to offer clues as to what the dream is about."
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This is both amazing and scary: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/10/scientists-identify-parts-of-brain-involved-in-dreaming - Scientists identify parts of brain involved in dreaming
"What’s more, changes in brain activity have been found to offer clues as to what the dream is about."
Wow! I love what they wrote about this and consciousness. So interesting too as someone who sometimes feels like someone in MLC is in a "trance."
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It is. MLC can be seen as a sort of "trance".
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Diabetes, weight can combine to alter brain, study says:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/health/diabetes-brain-study/index.html
"You can see a person with depression has thinning of the surface of the brain in certain areas, and you go in and do the same study with somebody with diabetes, and they have thinning in the exact same areas,"
This could very well be my husband's "reason"...I have always felt that there is something wrong biochemically in his case.
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An interesting article:
Testosterone Linked to Snap Judgments, Less Reflection
By Traci Pedersen
~ 2 min read
A new study found that men given doses of testosterone were more likely to rely on snap judgments during a brain-teaser test rather than rely on cognitive reflection; that is, stopping to consider whether their gut reaction to something is correct.
“What we found was the testosterone group was quicker to make snap judgments on brain teasers where your initial guess is usually wrong,” said Dr. Colin Camerer, the Robert Kirby Professor of Behavioral Economics at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech).
“The testosterone is either inhibiting the process of mentally checking your work or increasing the intuitive feeling that ‘I’m definitely right.'”
The study involved 243 males who were randomly selected to receive a dose of testosterone gel or placebo gel before taking a cognitive reflection test. A math task was also given to control for participant engagement, motivation level, and basic math skills.
The questions included on the cognitive reflection test were similar to the following: A bat and a ball cost $1.10 in total. The bat costs one dollar more than the ball. How much does the ball cost?
For many people, the first answer that comes to mind is that the ball costs 10 cents, but that answer is incorrect because then the bat would cost only 90 cents more than the ball. The correct answer is that the ball costs five cents and the bat costs $1.05.
A person prone to relying on their gut instincts would be more likely to accept their first answer of 10 cents. However, another person might realize their initial mistake through cognitive reflection and come up with the correct answer.
Participants were given as much time as they needed to complete the questions and were offered one dollar for each correct answer and an additional tow dollars if they answered all the questions correctly.
The results show that the group that received testosterone scored significantly lower than the group that received the placebo, on average answering 20 percent fewer questions correctly.
The men given testosterone also “gave incorrect answers more quickly, and correct answers more slowly than the placebo group,” the authors write. The same effect was not seen in the results of the basic math tests administered to both groups.
The researchers believe that this phenomenon can be linked to testosterone’s effect of increasing confidence in humans. Testosterone is thought to generally enhance the male drive for social status, and recent studies have shown that confidence enhances status.
“We think it works through confidence enhancement. If you’re more confident, you’ll feel like you’re right and will not have enough self-doubt to correct mistakes,” Camerer says.
Camerer says the new findings raise questions about the potential pitfalls of the growing testosterone-replacement therapy industry, which mainly targets the declining sex drive experienced by many middle-aged men.
“If men want more testosterone to increase sex drive, are there other effects? Do these men become too mentally bold and thinking they know things they don’t?”
The study was conducted by researchers from Caltech, the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, Western University of Health Sciences and ZRT Laboratory in Oregon, and is published in the journal Psychological Science
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Interesting article on how traumatic memories hidden in the brain are more likely to be accessed when the brain is in that same state:
https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2015/08/traumatic-memories-hide-retrieve-them
My MLCer was on a benzodiazepine med when he started MLC, as well as an SSRI -- interesting in the context of this article.
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Thank you for that, Velika. That really validates what I suspected. In my H's case, the "drug" that is inducing this is his mother. I think moving in with her brought back memories of his father's abuse.
It also jives with the theory mentioned in this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265099/
Considerable work has addressed the variety of cues available at the time of memory testing and how these cues affect retrieval success. The principle of encoding specificity asserts that a cue to retrieval will be more effective if it recapitulates some aspect of the encoding of that memory (Tulving & Thomson, 1973). For example, if the word palm is learned in the context of a “palm tree,” the word hand will be less effective as a retrieval cue than a word that invokes the image of a tree.
How do you think the drugs your husband were on influenced him? This is what I don't get.
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Interesting article on how traumatic memories hidden in the brain are more likely to be accessed when the brain is in that same state:
https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2015/08/traumatic-memories-hide-retrieve-them
My MLCer was on a benzodiazepine med when he started MLC, as well as an SSRI -- interesting in the context of this article.
Velika its interesting you say your H was on an SSRI, the private investigator I hired to find out who OW was at the beginning of this also had a MLC and he is now on SSRI's and recommended them.
But shortly after I spoke to him about his MLC, I also read a couple of stories on here where SSRI's actually made the MLC worse.
I am no scientist but I wonder if, there is a 'wrong time' for someone to be given an SSRI if in crisis?.
If its possible that MLC is a chemical imbalance I wonder if SSRI's given at the point where the MLC'er has found an AP might add to the high.....
is it possible your H's increase in irrational behaviour got worse when taking these drugs?
Is he still on them?
The PI only started taking them when he was sectioned toward the end of his crisis and was still on them when I spoke to him in Nov 15 (which was about 5 years after his crisis).
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1T, he was put on an SSRI (Paxil) off label about six months prior to the crisis, by a general practitioner and to treat IBS.
My dad was going through intense cancer treatments during this time so it is likely I missed changes to his behavior. However, in retrospect I now see he developed debilitating migraines during this time and began to exhibit some out-of-character behavior.
To be honest, as soon as he bomb dropped me the SSRI was my first thought. I read that an SSRI can trigger bipolar and family history of bipolar is a contraindication.
My former SIL also had a MLC. I talked to her ex and he said it also kicked off with an atypical reaction to an ssri (prescribed for postpartum depression and SAD) and that she has been told that she possibly has bipolar. My former FIL also told me that she had suspected bipolar.
I now think that my H had depression for at least a few years if not decades prior to MLC, and that the SSRI created a eurphoric mania that has tipped into mixed mania/cyclothemia that he cannot "crash" from.
He claims he is not taking the SSRI anymore but has lied about this in the past. He also told me that he is taking a low dose, but a neurologist told me it was quite high and that he should not be taking it with a benzodiazepine, which he only takes on occasion.
Migraines are also thought to be a symptom of bipolar. It is my theory that the very extreme MLCers have something that is or is close to bipolar or cyclothemia. I think the ones who "wallow" have more clarity and chance to recover because their depression tends to be unipolar. They may be very down, but they feel less euphoria and rage that tend to create additional problems and drive their destructive behaviors.
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Agreed on all counts. Having had a very similar situation, even if they do go off of them, as mine did, if they don't taper it can make the mania even worse. For some people it just upsets the brain chemistry in a way it is not intended ("rare and serious side effects can occur," as the ads state). For me I take a bit of comfort in knowing this really is something within him that I can in no way cure, despite my deep education on it now. The fellow I'm seeing is on a similar drug for PTSD, and it effects him completely differently. The contrast is good to see.
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Interview with Robert Sapolsky posted on Vox today: https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/5/23/15516752/science-human-nature-free-will-robert-sapolsky-interview
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Bingo. Always had a sense that Robert Sapolski would be the one to validate our perfect storm/biochemistry theories.
Well done us.
"So what is true for the epileptic is true for all of us all of the time? We are our brains and we had no role in the shaping of our biology or our neurology or our chemistry, and yet these are the forces that determine our behavior."
Thanks for posting this IANTE
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Any one read Quiet?
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Always had a sense that Robert Sapolski would be the one to validate our perfect storm/biochemistry theories.
Well done us.
He does validate our perfect storm/biochemistry theories, mas he always strikes me as someone who confuses mechanical actions, typping for example, with thought and chose what t-shirt to wear. I don't think the last two have only to do with biochemestry.
Also, if one is going to put everything down to biochemestry, one will not have right and wrong or good and bad, because, hey, my biochemestry made me do it.
"So what is true for the epileptic is true for all of us all of the time? We are our brains and we had no role in the shaping of our biology or our neurology or our chemistry, and yet these are the forces that determine our behavior."
We had no role in shaping the biology, neurology and chemestry we were born with. Afterwards, we often have a big role shaping how those go, especially neurology and chemestry, the core of human biology is hard to change.
He does, however, mention ambient, history, society, etc as factors that shape those things, so he is aware they can be changed depending of how we were raised/socialized and what type of life we lead (are leading).
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Has anyone looked into Huntington's Disease? This seems like an exact description of what I have observed in my former H.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/hopes/cgi-bin/hopes_test/the-behavioral-symptoms-of-huntingtons-disease/
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Here is another disorder with a description similar to what we see on this forum.
Depersonalization Disorder:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/04/depersonalisation-disorder-the-condition-youve-never-heard-of-that-affects-millions
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New article on depression and white matter - structure and function:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318586.php
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From the book Ray has recommended me, and that I am finding very interesting: Daniel J. Siegel, Mindsight
"Like some sleeping medications, alcohol is notorious for being able to shut off the hippocampus temporarily. Alcohol-based “blackouts” are not the same as fainting: The person is awake (though impaired) but does not encode experience into explicit form. People who have blackouts after drinking may not “remember” how they got home, or how they met the person who is in bed with them the next morning.
Rage can also shut off the hippocampus, and people with out-of-control anger may not be lying when they say they don’t recall what they said or did in that altered state of mind.
Recent research suggests that other states of high emotion—beyond those we can normally tolerate—may also shut off the hippocampus by way of the high levels of stress they create. Excessive stress-hormone release in a state of terror, for example, may disrupt hippocampal integration."
"Trauma may also shut down the hippocampus temporarily through the mechanism of dissociation. In the face of an overwhelming experience or threat to our survival, when there is no possible physical escape, not only do we release high levels of memory-blocking stress hormones, but the brain may find another form of escape by aiming the narrow channel of focal attention away from the threat. While we don’t yet know exactly how this happens, awareness becomes completely absorbed in some nontraumatic aspect of the environment, or in the interior landscape of the imagination."
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I saw this on the news tonight...there is so much we do not know about the human brain....this is about how certain people do not respond well to anti depressants and how a test that looks at their genetics can help to determine what medication might be more useful...as well...the dosage is also really important...the recommended dose may not be at all what the person needs.
It is just an example of how different we are and that even with treatment, many people who suffer from depression do not feel better.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/finding-right-medication-gene-test-may-help-treat-depression-n782781
So, treating the MLCer becomes very tricky, especially if they are not open to going for any treatment, let alone finding the right treatment and dosage.
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This is an interesting and, probably, controversial idea. And, for now, only tested in mices and monkeys. But regardeless of how we see it this matter, it is fascinating the many ways people are looking to illnesses or situations that affect the brain.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/26/will-heroin-vaccine-cure-west-drug-epidemic-chemical-answer-to-social-problem
As the article says, addiction is a very complicated issues, and one single way of trying to stop it may not work. But I think is makes for a fascinating reading.
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Depression's Link to Inflammation Gains Strength
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/10/09/depression-inflammation.aspx?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=facebookmercola_ranart-ths&utm_campaign=20170827_depression-inflammation
“Elevated biomarkers of inflammation, including inflammatory cytokines and acute-phase proteins, have been found in depressed patients, and administration of inflammatory stimuli has been associated with the development of depressive symptoms.
Data also have demonstrated that inflammatory cytokines can interact with multiple pathways known to be involved in the development of depression, including monoamine metabolism, neuroendocrine function, synaptic plasticity, and neurocircuits relevant to mood regulation …
Psychosocial stress, diet, obesity, a leaky gut and an imbalance between regulatory and pro-inflammatory T cells also contribute to inflammation and may serve as a focus for preventative strategies relevant to both the development of depression and its recurrence.”
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Here is another disorder with a description similar to what we see on this forum.
Depersonalization Disorder:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/04/depersonalisation-disorder-the-condition-youve-never-heard-of-that-affects-millions
I think you're getting closer. You might also be interested in the following article. Derealization often goes hand-in-hand with depersonalization.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/derealization (https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/derealization)
This is an interesting and, probably, controversial idea. And, for now, only tested in mices and monkeys. But regardeless of how we see it this matter, it is fascinating the many ways people are looking to illnesses or situations that affect the brain.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/aug/26/will-heroin-vaccine-cure-west-drug-epidemic-chemical-answer-to-social-problem
As the article says, addiction is a very complicated issues, and one single way of trying to stop it may not work. But I think is makes for a fascinating reading.
I think this may solve the heroin epidemic but users will just turn to cocaine or meth or alcohol. They're focusing on the wrong thing. The heroin use is not the problem. The problem is that the addict needs the heroin. Take heroin away and they'll find something else. Take alcohol away from an alcoholic and you still have an alcoholic.
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Wow. Derealization does sound a lot like this. Interesting too that it can be a symptom of disease of the temporal lobe or schizophrenia.
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I know many of us have considered that our spouse may have bipolar disorder or that MLC is a condition similar to bipolar. I know there has been more research into bipolar to understand it as a systemic illness.
An observation many of us have had is that our spouses appear to age very rapidly after bomb drop. There were times in the months that followed that my FH had an almost “ancient” look. He still retains a distinctive “before” and “after” look of MLC that I know is in part due to stylistic choices but also seems to reflect in his face shape if that is possible, complexion, as well as eyes and body fat distribution.
I found some interesting articles about bipolar and aging that would appear to lend support to the idea that what we observe may be linked. There is actually significant research in this area, including theories that bipolar is a disease of accelerated aging.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-017-0048-8
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Thank you for this, V!
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Are Some Psychiatric Disorders a pH Problem?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-some-psychiatric-disorders-a-ph-problem/
"Even as it becomes clearer that brain acidity may be a key characteristic of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, whether this could be a cause or effect remains an open question. According to Miyakawa, one possibility is that the increased acidity results from higher than normal neuronal activity in the brains of people with these disorders. Another popular theory is that the greater acidity could be the result of impairments in mitochondria, the powerhouses of cells, Regenold says. These two hypotheses may not be mutually exclusive.
The next big question will be whether low pH in the brain can lead to the cognitive or behavioral changes associated with these disorders, Miyakawa says. There are suggestions that this is the case. “We know that receptors [that are activated by acid] have prominent effects on behavior in animals,” Wemmie says. “That implies that there may be changes in brain pH in the awake and functioning brain that people haven't appreciated all that well.”
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Found this really interesting in light of what we are dealing with. Worth reading the entire article but this quote really stood out to me:
The team speculates humans’ elevated striatal dopamine levels in particular would have led to more advanced social behaviors and perhaps monogamy, both of which may have improved our offspring’s survival and benefitted our ancestors. They also feel that by enhancing social behaviors, a “dopamine-dominated striatum” personality type, as they call it, would have led to selection for increased brain size and also language.
I had recently reflected that my ex seems like a different species almost. Reading this article — and especially knowing that he had been taking an SSRI prior to the MLC — definitely validates that this could be chemical.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cocktail-of-brain-chemicals-may-be-a-key-to-what-makes-us-human/
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Interesting article in Scientific American about link between criminality and brain lesions.
How Responsible are Killers with Brain Damage?
Interestingly, the ‘criminality-associated network’ identified by the researchers is closely related to networks previously linked with moral decision making. The network is most closely associated with two specific components of moral psychology: theory of mind and value-based decision making. Theory of mind refers to the capacity to understand other people’s points of view, beliefs, and emotions. This helps you appreciate, for instance, how your actions would make another person scared or hurt. Value-based decision making refers to the ability to judge the value of specific actions or their consequences. This helps you see not only what the outcomes of your actions will be, but whether those actions and outcomes are good or bad.
The fact that violence can be a symptom of brain disease shows not that free will is an illusion, but that free will can be injured just like other human abilities. These rare cases of dysfunction allow us to see more clearly that our healthy brains endow us with remarkable capacities to imagine, reason, and act freely.
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A Feverish Debate
Are common bacterial infections making children mentally ill?
https://thewalrus.ca/a-feverish-debate/
"According to those who believe it exists, pandas can suddenly turn healthy children into basket cases. The hallmarks are rapid onset, and extreme emotional instability marked by screaming rages or uncontrollable sobs. “Some families have told us that their children seem possessed,” says Susan Swedo, an American physician who was part of the team that first described and named the condition."
"To lay people, it may sound outrageous: a common childhood infection can lead to an immune reaction that attacks the brain. But Swedo’s theory was not new. Her hypothesis was similar to the explanation for rheumatic fever. She thought then, and still thinks now, that pandas might be a variant of that disease."
"According to Swedo’s original paper, pandas has five key features: it affects kids; they display obsessions, compulsions, or tics; they present other neuropsychiatric oddities; their symptoms either start abruptly or have sharp worsenings; and a clear association has been established between those worsenings and infection with strep."
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Re: Brain disease and criminality. For sure. Can't recall if researchers scanned the brains of violent offenders in an Oregon or a Washington State prison, but they discovered the neural networks responsible for empathy and social emotions (right side of the frontal/temporal lobes) are dead. They did not light up. Now, those research subjects did not have brain injury or degeneration but the circuits do not work. Brain damage can definitely lead to criminality depending on the site of injury. Impulsiveness combined with a lack of empathy and unconcern with repercussions would make someone prone to antisocial acts.
Many patients with ftd, which is a degenerative disease, are finally properly diagnosed because they commit a criminal offense, something their families just know they would've never done unless something was terribly wrong.
As we've often discussed, you and I and others on this board believe that some of these brain disorders are an autoimmune disorder. Something is causing inflammation, whether bacterial, viral, fungal, environmental, we don't know yet.
Wanted to let you know I came across a paper the other day (I will reference it when I find it again) that some researchers believe a bacterium is sent from the gut to the brain when over-consumption of sugar is detected. Which brings us around full circle to your theory of gut/brain health.
But I wonder if the sugar consumption is the first-line defense to nourish the stricken brain, and the 2nd brain - the gut - hurriedly sends reinforcements.
Children need sugar (glucose), fat and cholesterol when their brain is developing, and protein when their bodies are. Maybe when the brain senses something is wrong in older people the brain compels us to consume brain food which is necessary to its development, but futile to save it.
As a man called Phil in the Mountains says, we must stop studying and researching in "silos." Everything is connected.
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Just came across a fascinating theory posted on an infidelity board. He said some researchers wonder whether it's an adaptive genetic strategy to encourage later life procreation. Since for most of human history, he says, life expectancy was around 50, a degenerating prefrontal cortex causes (among other behaviors) a surge in indiscriminate mating, ensuring more offspring would be made before demise.
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Just came across a fascinating theory posted on an infidelity board. He said some researchers wonder whether it's an adaptive genetic strategy to encourage later life procreation. Since for most of human history, he says, life expectancy was around 50, a degenerating prefrontal cortex causes (among other behaviors) a surge in indiscriminate mating, ensuring more offspring would be made before demise.
Wow, in a strange synchronicity, I had wondered just the same thing yesterday!
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Brains of those with psychiatric disorders show similarities at the molecular level
"Psychiatric disorders such as autism, schizophrenia, and depression share similarities at the molecular level, according to a new analysis of 700 donated brains.
It is well-known that genetics can make people more susceptible to psychiatric disorders, but the link is more complicated. DNA includes instructions for making proteins, but these instructions can be carried out in different ways by another genetic building block called RNA. (This is called “gene expression.”) In a study published today in the journal Science, researchers analyzed the brains of 700 people who had autism, schizophrenia, alcoholism, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder. The RNA molecules in these brains had all been sequenced into something called a transcriptome. By comparing these transcriptomes to each other (and against the transcriptomes of people without the disorders) the scientists found important physical similarities.
There was the most overlap between those with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Plus, these two disorders and autism were associated with extra sensitivity in brain cells called astrocytes. Depression, on the other hand, didn’t show this, but it had a distinctive pattern of hormone signaling that none of the others did. The scientists found the least amount of overlap between autism and alcoholism, and schizophrenia and alcoholism."
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/8/16986670/neuroscience-brains-mental-health-psychiatry-genetics-gene-expression#23959413-tw#1518123336692#23959413-tw#1518944447099
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Interesting Velika. It's very reassuring that science is slowly but surely 'getting there'.
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So if it is a chemical change in the brain - does that ever even out whether the MLC comes back to his old life or goes on with the OW etc. Or can that chemical change stay forever changing the brain chemistry for good? Any thoughts? Thanks:IFo
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If-only:
So if it is a chemical change in the brain - does that ever even out whether the MLC comes back to his old life or goes on with the OW etc. Or can that chemical change stay forever changing the brain chemistry for good? Any thoughts? Thanks:IFo
Yes, it seems from the reports of members whose spouses have been in crisis and who have come through it, that they are normal and sometimes even nicer people then they were before their crisis.
MLC is often associated with depression, and when depression is resolved, there will be change in some of the neurotransmitters that are associated with depression such as serotonin levels.
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That’s very interesting - I had no idea it was physical - I remember hearing that depression left untreated can take up to 7 years to resolve untreated but antidepressants do help to treat depression . I wonder if antidepressants could help move a MLC along quicker because that 7 year time frame I refer to - can also be a time frame for MLC? Thoughts? I don’t think I can wait 7 years standing as I am getting older. Thanks: IF
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There are many thoughts and ideas about the "cause" of MLC and although there are many similarities in our stories, there also are many differences.
After reading all I can about MLC over the last 8 1/2 years (and as far as I can see he is still in crisis) and my own knowledge of physiology and psychology from my background as a nurse, I like the statement "it is a perfect storm" because I think there are several factors that contribute to their crisis such as:
- something that was not resolved developmentally...the research by Eric Erikson on the stages of life and the developmental tasks that are needed to resolve each stage
-family of origin issues
-fear of getting older
-the loss of someone or something significant...a job, a family member
-hormonal changes
-physical changes
-biochemical changes which could be related to depression or physical and hormonal changes
-stress
Only you will be able to decide really what your thoughts are regarding what causes this.
As for standing, well...myself and others have been standing for many many years. Other LBSers take a different path. We are all different and we have to figure that out for ourselves as well.
Personally, I see that there is something really wrong with my husband of 32 years. If he had any other "condition" such as cancer or heart disease, I would remain his wife..I did not stop loving him because he no longer wants me in his life.
I also believe that the crisis ends and I do have several friends personally whose spouses have returned and they are quite happy now. There are no guarantees, no way to predict (I don't think) which ones will come back and which ones do not...most people feel that the length of time is just not worth it.
I had to examine deeply what my core beliefs and values are and I know what I truly believe about us and about our marriage. It is a decision that I have felt right for me but each person will decide that as well for themselves. I will try and find some other threads for you to look at that talk about the many causes of MLC. Depression seems to be a central theme.
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That’s very interesting - I had no idea it was physical - I remember hearing that depression left untreated can take up to 7 years to resolve untreated but antidepressants do help to treat depression . I wonder if antidepressants could help move a MLC along quicker because that 7 year time frame I refer to - can also be a time frame for MLC? Thoughts? I don’t think I can wait 7 years standing as I am getting older. Thanks: IF
Mine was on SSRI anti-depressents and things got worse. They are not for everyone.
I asked several of my pharmacist friends about SSRI drugs and people with very low serotonin (and I believe my xH has chronically suffered with that his whole life - without writing a whole novel I'll just say he always showed signs of a B6 deficiency). As one great pharmacist friend put it, "If you had a vineyard that had very low yield of grapes one year, you couldn't just keep squeezing the ones you had harder to get more juice." That's stuck with me as to why it may not have been a fit.
Reuptake drugs work with the serotonin that is already present - they don't make more. It has always been my belief that addressing the underlying reason they don't have an optimal amount of serotonin would actually speed up the timeline. It's what I did when I believe I was in crisis, and it did help.
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Here are the addresses to several threads starting back in 2011 entitled Links/blogs/articles for us all to share.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1231.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1769.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2790.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7143.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7723.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9309.0
Many people have studied MLC from all angles and you will find a wealth of information relating to MLC...unfortunately no one clear answer.
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R2T, yes, I thought it was interesting that this study differentiated between depression (hormonal) and other psychiatric illness (genetic).
This actually makes a LOT of sense to me, and also may help explain why people can come to this site with similar symptoms that result in different outcomes.
For example:
- Someone with severe depression may in fact "wallow" for years, or have more periods of clarity, and eventually recover, due to midlife hormonal fluctuations.
- Someone with midlife-onset bipolar/schizophrenia or other psychiatric condition might initially present similar but more extreme behavior as a depressive but deteriorate and never recover.
My ex also began taking an SSRI shortly before bomb drop. It was not the first SSRI he had taken, but it was a more controversial one (Paxil). Since studies have found that a lot of depression is inflammation-based, not serotonin-based, it also makes sense why this could be counter-productive or even catastrophic.
In the wake of recent mass shootings, I read a touching post about someone calling for more oversight and caution about psychiatric drugs. She wrote she had also "lost" someone to SSRIs, and that this needed to be openly discussed. It was encouraging for me to read a more high-profile person address issue this in a public forum.
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Exactly! Just as we suspected, so many frontal lobe dysfunctions (autism, bipolar, schizophrenia, ftd etc.) are related! I think sociopathy should also be included.
As we keep saying, once WE ALL start working together we will find cures. I still think we are looking at an autoimmune disorder in some cases that combined with stress and/or a genetic predisposition and possibly another trigger, a sickness will take hold. We are getting closer every day.
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Blowing my mind! bvFTD, thought of you:
Could a pathogen be the cause of Alzheimer’s disease?
http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/could-a-pathogen-be-the-cause-of-alzheimers-disease
In 2011, Judith Miklossy and fellow researchers at the International Alzheimer’s Research Center, found evidence of spirochetes—a bacteria which can cross the blood-brain barrier, in the brains of former Alzheimer’s patients. This is a type of bacteria responsible for syphilis and Lyme’s disease, and is also known to cause all kinds of neurological issues if such diseases are left untreated, long-term.
In Miklossy’s work, Borrelia burgdorferi—the species of spirochete that causes Lyme, was identified in 451 out of the 495 Alzheimer’s-riddled brains they examined. Yet, her work at the time was derived by other researchers and until recently, she had difficulty securing funding.
Now however, with many promising new drugs proven ineffective, the field is looking for a new direction to explore, and this may be it. Dermatology professor Herbert Allen of Drexel University, suggested that if Alzheimer’s is indeed an infection, then a biofilm—a bacterial colony that huddles together in order to repel the immune system, could be considered evidence for the presence of an Alzheimer’s-causing bacteria.
These have been found in brains affected by Alzheimer’s. Amyloid plaque buildup therefore could be evidence of an immune response. The person might be infected with a certain kind of spirochete years or even decades earlier, which lies dormant, until the time it deems necessary to become active. This happens with syphilis and sometimes with Lyme.
One interesting finding has been that neurosurgeons performing procedures on those with the neurodegenerative condition, are actually more likely to fall victim to the Alzheimer’s themselves. A 2010 society of neurosurgeons report, found that their members were six times more likely to die from Alzheimer’s than any other condition. Yet currently, the medical establishment considers Alzheimer’s to be non-communicable.
These days, two Harvard researchers have been looking into whether Alzheimer’s might originate with a colony of bacteria in the brain. To find out, they’ve had to launch a larger initiative. Assistant Professor of Neurology Robert Moir, teamed up with Professor of Child Neurology and Mental Retardation Rudolph Tanzi, both of Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital.
They’re leading The Brain Microbiome Project, to find out what bacteria can be found in the brain and which are friendly and which aren’t. In a 2010 study, the duo proved that amyloid beta plaque is in fact an antimicrobial peptide.
Tanzi told The Daily Beast,
"Turns out, our most ancient immune system, before we had adaptive immunity, had little baby proteins, antimicrobial peptides, and when they saw bacteria or a virus or a fungus, they would stick to it and clump it up into a ball and the peptide would grow into a spiral like spaghetti and trap it like a fly trapping a seed, and that is one of the most classic ways that our primitive innate immune system protects us."
The theory still has critics. There may be another reason for their outspokenness, besides the usual concerns. “The things creeping around in the brain will scare the heebie-jeebies out of you,” Moir told The Harvard Gazette. If an infection does prove to be the source of Alzheimer’s, we should be able to recognize it easily and wipe it out, before any neurological damage takes place, which means the end of Alzheimer’s as we know it.
Could a virus be causing Alzheimer’s? To hear more about that theory, click
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I've always wondered why they didn't focus on plaques in Alzheimers and protein clumping in ftd. It is understood the diseases begin long before memory slips or behavioral irregularities emerge so I have thought the brain must have been engaged in a ferocious war for quite some time. I think the plaque formed and protein clumped around an invader! But the combatants didn't stop and lost control.
I think AlZ and FTD are autoimmune disorders. A bacterium, virus or fungi infiltrated the brain and combined with a trigger, such as stress and a gene primed for the disease, the sickness took hold.
Interestingly, symptoms of mold syndrome include: depression, anxiety, mood swings and numbness. One man said he couldn't plan anything and he lost his imagination, his "inner vision."
Intense carb and sugar cravings are a telltale sign of ftd. Forgot the name, but a type of fungi is partial to the sugars in the brain and the spinal cord (ALS?). Your son's parasite theory from day 1.
Researching in silos, becoming fixated on pet theories and fighting for funds for individual labs have lost us over 100 years. They should've consulted an 8-year-old boy.
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And just to expand on our theory a bit: Maybe it isn't just one bacterium, virus or fungus that started the cascade of catastrophic neuronal death. Perhaps once a pathogen penetrated the brain in someone whose immune system overreacted, others followed gradually overwhelming the brain's defenses.
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And just to expand on our theory a bit: Maybe it isn't just one bacterium, virus or fungus that started the cascade of catastrophic neuronal death. Perhaps once a pathogen penetrated the brain in someone whose immune system overreacted, others followed gradually overwhelming the brain's defenses.
Fascinating! I came across this other article about PANDAS:
Yes, You Can Catch Insanity
A controversial disease revives the debate about the immune system and mental illness.
http://nautil.us/issue/23/dominoes/yes-you-can-catch-insanity
Three things come to mind, which I have mentioned elsewhere:
1. When my ex first developed symptoms, my friend's daughter was diagnosed with PANDAS. She was taking her to Stanford and had luckily caught it early on. She was one of the first people to tell me she had closely observed my ex at a school event. She told me, "He looks weird." She was the first person to tell me that she thought he might have bvFTD. (Which I have mentioned I immediately discounted because he wasn't eating food out of other people's grocery carts etc.)
2. My aunt had one of the most insane MLCs I have ever seen apart from my ex. She contracted sarcoidosis, she believes from a pet bird. She basically went crazy. She was always "eccentric" but she went completely nuts — around this time she became involved with an unstable absolutely crazy person. I don't know if it was the bird or her partner that caused it sometimes. They got married but soon divorced.
My aunt found a doctor who prescribed the Marshal Protocol who put her on a very low dose course of antibiotics and urged her to avoid overexposure to vitamin D as well as other measures. My aunt took this to radical extremes. BUT — incredibly — she did recover from her "MLC" and became absolutely convinced that the source of her troubles had to do with bacteria.
3. Prior to showing obvious symptoms, my ex developed a series of strange clammy fevers and headaches. Sometimes they were so bad he couldn't drive. After he bomb dropped me, he seemed to have some clarity and change of heart. Then he suddenly developed this same clammy fever and ran right back to the OW.
Another point to note is that "MLC" happened to tons and tons of colleagues of his, including in one case very young woman. She and her new husband had just bought a house. She suddenly left him, out partying all the time, quit her job, filed for divorce. At the time my ex thought she was crazy.
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Reading this article, I have to wonder — if antibiotics can help a patient with PANDAS, might people who recover from MLC have had some similar antibiotic experience? Or if not antibiotics per se, then some illness that perhaps led to a proper immune response or other change of scenery that might have changed the bacterial biome they existed in?
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Hey, I am new to this information and I am finding it fascinating. I have a couple of questions that some of you can probably answer:
1) My H has always had the inappropriate social behavior that is described in FTD. But since he's always had it, that's probably not any type of FTD? Or is there something like that that can be life long? Could he just have had that one symptom and now full on FTD is kicking in? I notice when he comes to my house he eats all the sweets. He didn't do that before.
2) Does there face change? Does there bone structure change? MY H's eyes have really sunken in in the past six months. And the proportion of his forehead to face looks different.
Thanks for any information.
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Hi, Family:
A profound personality change characterizes ftd; however, some people have reported the behaviors can also become grossly exaggerated. You said your spouse has always exhibited inappropriate behaviors, but are the behaviors now crossing the line into alarming and unacceptable?
Researchers have devised a test that can detect ftd due to changes in the retina. My H's eyes are dead. No light shines from them which is such a disturbing change from when love and warmth radiated from them whenever he looked at me. It makes sense to me that with enough damage to the orbitofrontal cortex, the eyes may appear to or actually sink in. After all, the eyes truly are the windows to the soul, and their souls are black space.
Velika: Absolutely riveting observations!
I recall some pALS who said they reported to their doctors that they came down with fever and flu-like symptoms before ALS diagnosis. The doctors dismissed their belief that they may be related somehow.
A woman on another board noticed her mother exhibited full-blown Parkinson's symptoms as soon as she stopped smoking. Could the nicotine have been keeping the illness at bay? Anyone's spouses start smoking during MLC or increase their cigarette habit?
I know my husband was compelled to leave the house. I had originally thought the noise and activity of children and pets overstimulated him since he was losing his filter, but just maybe it was something inside the house. MLCers on this forum with no kids also bolt. When we asked him to come home he said, "I can't come back to THAT house" as if it was haunted or contaminated. A year before he left he also moved our store to another location. The move was very disruptive and lengthy, but he insisted on it. Moving to change another habitat? To rid himself of another possible source of his restlessness and deep unease?
I also follow idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis news. You mentioned that neurosurgeons who have operated on people with Alzheimers have also gotten the disease. The article I came across said to watch out for mold developing in lungs transplanted into IPF patients.
So many of our spouses start coming down with other ailments. It's as if their entire bodies are under assault. My H has bad arthritis in his neck, but what really got my attention were his toes. They are all black with fungus. He was never suspectible to nail infections.
I am simply saying that since they haven't cured so many of these diseases even after over 100 years of trying, they may wish to start developing other theories no matter how "out there" they seem.
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Hey, I am new to this information and I am finding it fascinating. I have a couple of questions that some of you can probably answer:
1) My H has always had the inappropriate social behavior that is described in FTD. But since he's always had it, that's probably not any type of FTD? Or is there something like that that can be life long? Could he just have had that one symptom and now full on FTD is kicking in? I notice when he comes to my house he eats all the sweets. He didn't do that before.
2) Does there face change? Does there bone structure change? MY H's eyes have really sunken in in the past six months. And the proportion of his forehead to face looks different.
Thanks for any information.
FiMG, very interesting!
1. Inappropriate Social Behavior
One of my theories early on was that one lobe had become dominant over another. Studies have shown that we have more than one "brain" — our right and left hemispheres will show disagreement when there is an injury, damage, or in instance of lobotomy. For example, the right and left hand may not agree on what to wear. There is a theory that everyone's brain is like this, but has managed to co-exist.
I wondered, if our spouse or former spouse brain has this illness, perhaps one side has hijacked the other — which is why people will report an expression of their spouse at times where they look like they are watching in horror at what they themselves are doing, like a frightened child.
However, I also feel that many of those afflicted prior to MLC had a not fully developed sense of self and also a "shadow self." I think this is why RCR's articles are an important component of understanding MLC even if it also has neurological/medical component. In other words, your H behavior contains some authentic aspects of his personality.
My former SIL also had a MLC. Prior to this she was grateful for her husband and their lives. She often expressed that she wanted to be a different mom than her mom. When MLC hit she had affairs, slept all day, drank heavily, abused prescription meds. Her now ex husband told me he felt on some level she was now being her true, uninhibited self, a feeling I have at times with my own ex. It is like his executive function is not working so he is acting like a disinhibited 15-year-old.
2. Face Change
Yes. I noticed early on my ex's eyes appeared strange, not aligning, and eventually sinking. Often they will have a "startled" look, watery, or robotic, empty and cold ("reptilian"), but other times cold, dark, angry. My former BIL also told me that he could tell how his ex wife was going to act given her eyes.
Then his head shape changed. My son, age nine, told me earlier this year that this was a change his dad noticed as well. He actually asked our son if his head was changing shape! I agree it is almost like the forehead ratio changes. I don't know if some of this is due to fat distribution.
One of my more radical and out-there theories is inspired by apes. You know how a Gorilla becomes a silverback when there is a change to status, including significant growth to sagittal crest? This is a physical change believed to be connected to sex selection. They morph into another creature. Sometimes I think MLC is like this.
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bvFTD, yes, I agree with you, there is no reason not to explore other "out there" theories — particularly because some of these theories are perfectly accepted when it comes to other species! It is well documented that parasites can affect the behavior and minds of all other types of animals, driving them to do crazy and self destructive things. Why would we think that we as humans are the exception to this?
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ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Late Life Bipolar Disorder Evolving into Frontotemporal Dementia Mimic"
"Conclusion:
Symptoms fitting the criteria for possible behavioral variant frontotemporal dementia may be present in end stage of bipolar disorder. An alternative neurodegenerative nature seems unlikely based on repeated normal neuro imaging and the absence of clinical progression. Functional involvement of the frontal-sub cortical networks might play a role."
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Thanks for sharing this link bvftd
"Most profound was their lack of insight and empathy. All four displayed disinhibition and stereotyped behavior, "
"A possible link between bipolar disorder and bvFTD has also been suggested by case reports on patients presenting with manic symptoms as a first manifestation of bvFTD and patients with a lifetime diagnosis of bipolar disorder evolving into bvFTD. This large clinical overlap in social cognition, executive disturbances, and behavioral profiles might be explained by the involvement of common functional neuroanatomical networks" (just as we have often discussed on this board)
"The condition fulfilling criteria for possible bvFTD failing to convert to probable bvFTD over time is labeled benign bvFTD phenocopy syndrome. These patients exhibit behavioral and functional impairments consistent with a frontal lobe syndrome but fail to progress over time and have no frontal or anterior temporal atrophy or hypoperfusion at follow-up. Although an alternative explanation is generally lacking in these cases, end-stage bipolar disorder may be one of the underlying causes of this syndrome, with a male predominance as in our cases."
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Wow, Kikki, so interesting.
bv, your post about the ALS viral symptoms led me to come across articles about the role of retrovirus HERV-K in diseases. It sounds like this is actually a virus that lives in the RNA? I just started investigating but was curious if you had read anything about this. It certainly speaks to the hereditary component.
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Yes, I came across that theory a little while ago, too.
NIH
"Dormant Viral Genes May Awaken to Cause ALS"
" . . . reactivation of ancient viral genes embedded in the human genome may cause the destruction in some forms of ALS. The result, suggests a link between human endogenous retro viral genes (HERVS) and ALS.
. . . raise the question of whether antiretroviral drugs, similar to those used for suppressing HIV, may also help some ALS patients."
The article goes on to say that humans have been passing on genetic remnants of ancient HERV infections, but the genes for these viruses were considered junk DNA, but motor neurons may be susceptible to activation of those genes in ALS.
I am just glad they are finally climbing out of their silos they've been in for 100 years, or is it that alternative theories that have been around for a long time are only now being given some credence and funding?
You cited a researcher studying bacteria as the cause for some neurodegenerative diseases: others are looking at common viruses. Regardless, I think we are still on the right track of thinking inflammation and the autoimmune system are still involved. The body starts attacking the pathogen but does not stop. I am still fascinated by the thought there could also be a fungal link, or who Knows, maybe a devastating combination of events that begins the fatal cascade.
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Just found a piece of information that has been troubling me ever since the early days. My MLCer (when I finally knew about the OW), said that she made him 'feel safe'. How on earth could that be when they barely knew each other? And what was this new found need to feel safe when he had never had this need prior?
I finally have the answer to that below:
https://www.bphope.com/blog/bipolar-disorder-and-the-marriage-go-round/
Of course I was also hypersexual and I thought we were in love. The hypersexuality, I later found out, was really a deeper cry for safety and calm. Researchers have found that the brains of people with bipolar disorder lack the homeostatic regulation necessary between the amygdala and other parts of the brain. Furthermore, chemicals released during arousal generate a sense of safety in the brain. Of course it doesn’t last long, so it creates an addictive pattern of behavior … hence—hypersexuality …
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Kikki:
It's kind of hard to describe the feeling when the puzzle pieces finally fall into place: Relief? Satisfaction? Vindication? Peace? Or Resignation?
But I think it's always better to know than to be left wondering what the f^*k went so wrong.
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You summed up those feelings very well bvftd.
Possibly also add in frustration, that it has taken this long for some of the puzzle pieces to make sense.
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Kikki, wow this is so tragic. I find that when I can let go of my own anger and pain that is my dominant feeling. It is a tragedy.
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Absolutely agree Velika. The pain of this train wreck and the cruelty towards us due to the new lack of empathy and strange thought processes, makes for a horror of an experience for us. Even though it's obvious that something has seriously gone amiss, it's nigh on impossible to be compassionate 100% of the time. Especially when they are messing with our children's heads and hearts and our financial wellbeing.
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Brain’s “Brakes” Suppress Unwanted Thoughts
Researchers identify a new target for disorders such as PTSD and schizophrenia
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-rsquo-s-ldquo-brakes-rdquo-suppress-unwanted-thoughts/
Everyone has unwelcome thoughts from time to time. But such intrusions can signal serious psychiatric conditions—from “flashbacks” in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) to obsessive negative thinking in depression to hallucinations in schizophrenia. “These are some of the most debilitating symptoms,” says neuroscientist Michael Anderson of the University of Cambridge.
New research led by Anderson and neuroscientist Taylor Schmitz, now at McGill University, suggests these symptoms may all stem from a faulty brain mechanism responsible for blocking thoughts. Researchers studying this faculty usually focus on the prefrontal cortex (PFC), a control center that directs the activity of other brain regions. But Anderson and his colleagues noticed that conditions featuring intrusive thoughts—such as schizophrenia—often involve increased activity in the hippocampus, an important memory region. The severity of symptoms such as hallucinations also increases with this elevated activity.
In the new study, Anderson and his team had healthy participants learn a series of word pairs. The subjects were presented with one word and had to either recall or suppress the associated one. When participants suppressed thoughts, brain scans detected increased activity in part of the PFC and reduced activity in the hippocampus. The findings, which were published last November in Nature Communications, are consistent with a brain circuit in which a “stop” command from the PFC suppresses hippocampus activity.
Using magnetic resonance spectroscopy, the team also found that levels of GABA—the main chemical that inhibits signals in the brain—in participants' hippocampi predicted their ability to suppress thoughts. “If you have more GABA to work with, you're better at controlling your thoughts,” Anderson says. In other words, if the PFC contains the mental brake pedal, hippocampal GABA levels are the brake pads that determine how effectively the brain stops.
The study helps to bridge the gap between molecular neuroscience and human behavior—and how the process goes awry in disease. “It's a great step,” says neuroscientist Brendan Depue of the University of Louisville, who was not involved in the work. “The next step is to do a drug study,” Anderson says. “Could we make people better [at suppressing thoughts] by giving them drugs that enhance GABA?”
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Hi Velika,
Would you like to start a new thread on this subject?
Thank you. :)
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http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10049.0