[lawprofessor]

Ah, yes Anjae I see your point now. 

Interesting because I'd never thought about it in the terms you describe referring to my ex wanting to return. 

Lp

[Anjae]

We do not promote waiting around. Anyone who has been reading this site over the past year, at least, knows that the advice is consistently to DETACH as soon as one can, work on oneself, and leave the MLCer to it.

That has been the advice for years on end. Yes, hope was talked about, still is. Returns were talked about, still is, but that has been the standard advice for many years. 

Air, fair enough, you don't to answer, don't answer.

Each of us have different beliefs. Mine are based on HS stories and real life and those tell me most MLCers will want back. They also tell me most will never reconcile because the LBS will not want to.

In that regard, LP, your husband showed that things we used think aren't as we used to think.

[Treasur]

Just wanted to point out that this discussion has veered slightly. Not saying that is wrong or not valuable, just slightly different talking about returns, the odds of reconciliation and standing. Whereas I thought the original discussion was more about 'framing' ones attitude towards MLC behaviours...and how that might affect your choices and recovery as an LBS.

For many of us who are not standing or seeing anything other than a marriage destroyed in a horrific way, there is a residual WTF to resolve in our own minds as part of taking responsibility for our recovery from someone else's behaviour in crisis. As part of working out our own answers to 'WTF happened' we often try to figure out if we believe in MLC, who our spouse really was and is, and how we make peace with that. The issues of intent, responsibility and impairment for me are part of that process rather than a 'will they return' debate as most newbies come with.

Fwiw I think most LBS need to do three things:
1 reduce further damage by protecting themselves financially, practically and emotionally from a destructive self-interested spouse
2 find safer ground to stand on by detaching and limiting contact as much as they can while they catch their breath
3 work out how to quarantine anything important in life from the effects of their spouse's behaviour as much as possible and focus on that more than the MLCer.

There will be plenty of time to make sense of it...or your own sense of it...later when you are safer, saner and not living in a hurricane.

But it is easy to become adjusted maybe to the weirdness of MLC as a new normal after a while and to forget how gut wrenchingly shocking and distressing and incomprehensible it can be after BD for a newbie. Or just how peculiar it can be to try to interact in a normal way with these spouses or frankly just how crazy they can be. It may be less uncommon than we knew but for many of us it is a million miles from normal. And why people need to stumble forwards from it in their own way and pace.

I happen to think that reconciliations are few for a variety of reasons. I am pretty clear that most MLC spouses are no prize at all even if the pre-MLC spouse was great. I believe that very little the LBS does makes any difference to someone with an MLC mindset bc at best they don't care and at worst they hate you....so you might as well invest in yourself, your kids and others who do care. I think these kind of events change a lot of things including the LBS.

But we risk forgetting just how Not Normal this experience feels and how reclaiming ones own sense of Normal, including how we judge our spouse, is part of the process of moving forward too.

[nah]

Many people (back in the day) were surprised that I was on a standing site, yet I was juggling men, why?

The idea of standing gave me hope. Yes, I know I wasn’t standing “correctly”, but I still somehow worked it out in my mind if I allowed time for the “MLC process” to work, then I would have my family back. What’s wrong with having hope in the early days?  Some do come back, if you are a “lighthouse” I think the chances are better.  I have moved on, happily married, living a completely new life, why do I still believe that standing and hope for return is not a bad thing?

Hope is how I survived.

I kept talking about love but honestly, my biggest emotion was fear.
I was so F’n scared to death of living without him. I still have PTSD, not over BD, but those crazy overwhelming panic attacks. I honestly thought I was going to die, I couldn’t breath, since I couldn’t breath, the panic attack would increase, that pain, that intense physical pain right in the middle of my chest.

I found a way to calm myself, I would curl up in a ball, rock back and forth and repeated out loud, endlessly, “He will be back, let the process work, he will be back.”

It was RCR’s articles at the time that said 2-7 years, he would be back, and I believed them. Of course MY husband would be on the shorter side of two years,  , so I only had to make it that long. I could do two years.

Now, as for the “it’s not their fault”, I didn’t need any of that. I really didn’t care if it was his fault or why it happened, I just wanted him back. Obviously it was a good thing for me that he stayed gone that first year bc if he did come back, I would not be the person I am today, I’m much better off without him. But at the time, hope kept me breathing.

It’s just my opinion bc of my personal experience but I believe standing IS a good thing until we can breath again.

[Songanddance]

But I am upset when I see newbies get on this site and cling to the MLC timeline.

How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

They are clinging to hope - and dare I say false hope - false in the sense that they think a return is likely.
And then later - sometimes much later- years later - they express that they wish posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of a return was.

Returns are possible - but they are not the norm - and so I agree with LP - that it not serving a newbie well to concentrate on the hope of a return.  Instead the focus should be on rebuilding the life of the LBSer. 

Redstar gave a brilliant response but this is my ha'porth

When a newbie arrives on this forum - that is exactly the reason why they are called newbies. They are new to the crisis and seek answers to something that is completely beyond their understanding.
Of course it becomes a waiting game for some of them - that's what they believe (rightly or wrongly) is what is best for them. 

The one common denominator for all of us is time and ALL on here are constantly reminded (not told) of the importance of using that time, standing, waiting or actively divorcing for ourselves - whatever is best for ourselves.

I am intrigued by the comment that "they wish that posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of the return was"   They are told this either directly or indirectly. RCR does not say that returns are inevitable and the fact that the majority of posters on here are divorced or in the process of getting divorced.  The challenge is that in the state of shock and emotional crisis they are in when they arrive on here they do not take any notice of that because they want to be the exception that proves the rule.  Standing is a personal choice as is the decision to work on self or not.

If you look at OP's official welcome, it does not say "hope for a return which is guaranteed"  His welcome is all about the focus of this forum - detach -get emotionally, physically , spiritually healthy and let time do its work whatever the outcome.

[barbiedoll]

I am chomping at the bit to get involved in this conversation but it really is very overwhelming, makes me reactive at times and generally just "too much to say". I agree with some things said 8 pages ago and disagree with many comments thru out. But to go back and address them all would take until tomorrow. And I can "feel" this way today and just as likely to feel another way tomorrow ...some parts are still not stable. so I think I just need to start with this outline

Briefly.. my husband decided he no longer loved me, had NEVER been "happy" in our marriage ( over 30 years), wanted to learn to "live alone", was a "lone wolf" etc etc  in 2013. This happened 6 months after he saw his father. He had not seen his father in 14 years and I am told this may well have been a trigger in a subconscious way started to shift and activate deep repressed FOO issues. He lived at home in a hell that still hurts for a period of 6 months..monstering, threatening to leave, silent and ragefull and abusive. It was abuse with ZERO doubt and when that spilled over on to my youngest daughter ...the game is over. I kicked him out late august NOT knowing he was having an affair. I l lost 40 lbs, was anxiety ridden, felt a rage from him that was staggering and was soo lost I could barely function. I went no contact as seeing him was like a cut with a thousand knives. I discovered his affair ( by fluke and intuition) November 25 th . I confronted him ..he lied and lied some more . But I knew . I week later I sent him a long email with my lawyers name, that I had changed all banking, the locks were changed , his belongings all packed in garage , changed his address to hers and that I NEVER intended ( EVER) to lay eyes on him again as long as we both lived. Less than an hour , he was at my workplace on his knees in the parking lot in the snow , asking me "what have I done ? What the firetruck is wrong with me , you have to help me "... dangling my wedding rings in his hand . He could not stand because of chest pains, He was hospitalized for 3 days and moved into his uncles. I allowed him back a week later ( on the couch) as he was very sick ... and here we are 5 years later still licking life shattering wounds . He was back mid December ...just before Christmas . So, a very short and intense crash and burn , very unlike what I typically read on this site. And NO, I am not going to "detach" from abusive behavior towards the women in my family ( I have 5 daughters) ...so him staying as a live in MLC'er is 100% unacceptable to me. To do over?. Would have kicked him out far sooner.

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?
Did he know what he was doing ? 

.

Did I make excuses for his behavior?

I found this site after months of monster . I had no real idea what was happening prior to that. HS gave me the answers . I did spew MLC information to anyone that would listen to me in effort to "explain what was happening to him". Of course, some agreed and some thought I was making excuses for bad behavior. I needed to convince family and most especially daughters what was "wrong" with him. I could never describe the shock that mr pedestal King of a family of 6 women ...was falling apart and wanted "out". I remember telling people " he is a good person ...he just having a MLC". I did not want anyone thinking badly of him and was very protective. But to be utterly honest ...in my heart of hearts , there was no justification that was acceptable and I threw him out. I suffered . As much as I knew about MLC , detaching , "leave him to it" etc ..I could not have him at home . I did not care if it was MLC .. there was no "excuses big enough" for this abuse . So, no, I could not stretch my mind into tolerating him no matter what was happening. If I had have know there was an affair? He would have been thrown out same exact day. To live with a MLC monster is NOT acceptable to me whatsoever. It is abuse. I can not honour myself as a mother by letting my daughters witness and watch such treatment . I felt extreme relief when he was out...

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster.

Hmmm ? NO. In my opinion...there is no "good enough " thing to blame or make excuses for him. He would need to "go have your crisis somewhere else". I mentally would have snapped. I had such extreme anxiety ...I was too afraid to come home from work. Was he in a "fog" ? Indeed he was , but I did not care and neither did I have the fortitude to detach and live with him. I did not give a flying firetruck what the reasons were .. he was an utter rage filled stranger living in my home and I felt him as a threat. I was full of rage , fear, shock, and utter confusion. He was either sleeping around the clock or pacing like an animal looking for the cage door. The "fog" ( in hindsight only) was limerance. He wanted to be somewhere else with someone else. He was trapped at home and wanted to be back in fantasy land with OW. She was making him "feel" better, appreciated, desired and admired . I did not know "she" existed but I can see the "pull" she had in hindsight. That is part of the fog in my opinion. Bottom line... you are 100 % accountable for your choices , your affair , your destruction of your family ....MLC or not. No excuses . This has been an issue in reconciliation. I have heard him ask the therapist .." Barbiedoll knows more about MLC than anyone, she knows this happens, she has read millions of stories of men that breakdown just like I did , but she still will not apply that understanding to me. There is no compassion for my "pain" or for what I went thru . She will not give me a break even though she has a deep understanding that this happens to some men. She will not "hear MY pain". My PTSD and anguish does not give a firetruck about YOUR pain...your excuses , your horrific experience of sleeping with 2 women at the same time, your romantic weekend getaways , your quitting a job and being fancy free or your arrogant piss&ng on the humans that are your children. This as I leave the counselling office in extreme reactivity and the glass in her door breaks.  That is a brutal look at reconciliation ... I have not been able to accept excuses. I do see , however, that in the later stages of reconciliation ( if you actually want to save your marriage) this needs to stop and be resolved and let go. It took me a VERY VERY long time. It has to run its course. That's a fact no matter what any one says .

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?

Yes. I did. Because I am a human that was betrayed by the "keeper of the family gate". There are no descriptive words that can express this hurt. All words are inadequate in monumental ways. It was like a murder by a grinning arrogant self entitled cheater.. the one you thought was your greatest protector in your lifetime. It is like someone delivering a mental illness to you... because it put me into such a staggering life altering crisis , I still struggle to recover from. His actions made my children weep and it changed the blueprint of their life and ideas of safety and security . They will never be who they might have been without this ... it created epic losses that will be in your soul for all time.

What I do want to clarify is where I am now. I am able to "hear his pain"... although I still have rumblings of reactivity. I do feel stirs of compassion and hurt for him and what he went thru , but I needed to walk thru all my own emotions first . I needed to be "heard" first . I needed to know that he fully could breath in and out...  the impact this had on me and my children. He needed to know my sorrow and walk with me in that hurt ... He has had a tough go with me . I see that like crystal ..and he weathered the wildest of rage storms you can ever imagine. We did that while we were drowning in chronic fight or flight , my overwhelming need to "push him away " over and over and over ...to see if he will stay . I finally see that. My story is not at all like the lovely Acorn or S&D  and when I do read their thread , it is with awe and confusion. They are steadfast , strong, calm and reflective. I have spoken with my therapist about this as I have wondered why I am not any of this ...why has it been so long for me to find some stable footing. I did not have the "time " to process one shock after another . He was gone a total of 101 days. Time is your friend ... as painfull as that companion is , it is helping you heal and come into yourself. I am still trying to find my new self , fix a marriage, help children recover and try to feel compassion, forgiveness and acceptance.. Reconcilliation should not be the goal or the only outcome to strive towards . Its not for everyone and I am not sure I would choose that road again. Its all about SELF and fixing, soothing and knowing your - SELF.

[barbiedoll]

Just to add .... 1Trouble posted on July 5th. It was an awesome post and every word resonated with me . I applaud !!!

[beyondblessed]

When we are left, our whole world as we knew it is turned inside out.  At that point, I don't care who you are, what your bank account reads, how high your IQ is, etc.... you go into survival mode.  You will also say and do things you never thought possible.  Lord knows, I was consumed with anger when this first went down.  I wanted to rip him to shreds, and that feeling didn't go away, until I went no contact and started focusing on my own life and shortcomings.  I'm one that has always believed we both played our part and did our wrongs to get to the point of BD, but ultimately I wasn't the one to completely burn it all down with disrespect, lies, and adultery.

Everyone comes here wanting to find safety and hope that all isn't lost, and from my experience you can preach, rant and rave and beg these LBS to cut the rope, but just like the MLC'er, this is not a message that is received until that particular LBS is good and ready.  A person, be it MLC'er or LBS, has to reach the point that they want the situation to change before any amount of reasoning will be effective and considered.

Our situations are similar enough to draw comparisons, but we all still unique in our individuality, and that makes all bets off for each situation.  We, and we alone make decisions that play into the dynamics of our situations.  If my xh came back to me today and apologized with a contrite and honest heart, I would accept his apology and close the door.  3.5 years of being on my own have given me the opportunity to create the life I am truly happy to live, and that wouldn't have happened had he not left the way he did.  And just as a previous poster was vile enough to wish a crisis upon all the "judgemental" LBS, I am bold enough to wish the LBS to find the sort of peace, self love and happiness I've found on my own, within themselves.

[Father5]

This is a great thread and should be read by every "Newbie". I am almost 1.5 years since the initi BD. I don't count that as I didn't put two and two together. I new nothing about MLC.

 My real pain didn't start until BD3 when I found out about the affair. So I am mentally only in this 11 months. I still cling to hope but this thread has opened my eyes alot. I still hope for reconciliation atleast for my small children.

 She hasn't even tried to make amends in any way. We don't talk except about the kids which is minimal. We haven't had any divorce  initiation yet. She is hoping we can mediate which I think is not going to happen.

 I always assumed I could forgive but as I grow I see I might not. I still can't figure out what happened.

[Treasur]

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
Bc I simply couldn't reconcile the person I knew with the person who could do such awful things, who had loved and respected me and now apparently hated me. Nothing made sense. The excuses were a way of not accepting that this awful frightening crazy man WAS my h. Until I had to or frankly lose my mind.

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
Not sure I did this much. Nor blamed ow either. Whenever I have felt blame or resentment, it has always been aimed at my h. At the same time, I honestly saw a lot of irrational extreme behaviour so I think I usually believed that he was not mentally 'right'....I still blamed him, but that stopped me hating him probably. Maybe I needed to try so hard to not take it personally bc the hatred felt so personal it was almost unliveable with. It was like being repeatedly stabbed by someone laughing.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 
I needed to dial down my compassion to protect myself, to force myself to look at the worst not the best I remembered. And it is very hard, and I'm not a saint, to feel compassion for someone who relentlessly hurts you with no apparent concern for you at all. My h was staggeringly cruel, even now a bit of me finds that shocking. And with a vanisher, it is too easy perhaps to believe that they are skipping away happily covered with your metaphorical blood bc you see few signs of how messed up they are or how messed up their new life is. There was definitely a time when compassion for him felt like a weakness or a risk and a foolish thing to hold onto. And I needed my compassion for myself and was fairly confident that he was surrounded by people soothing his crisis-fevered brow!

Whenever I have small bits of 'evidence' that he is probably still a mess or the odd moment when I remember how he was - although those fade with time tbh and are replaced by the recent horrors - it is easier to feel compassion again. Perhaps my compassion is founded on the belief that my h did break in some way, that it was/is a painful crisis and that he has lost things he cared about...when I doubt that, my compassion drops....with a vanisher, it is not always easy to see that so it becomes a choice really, almost an act of faith that the person I knew would not have chosen this for himself or me. But some days my faith is weaker bc truthfully he said so little that I probably can't really ever know...so my compassion cycles too lol. I guess the bare bones choice I hung onto was that I did not want to hate someone I had loved so much.