[Velika]

No one ever said that bvFTD is commonly occurring. It is poorly understood and often misdiagnosed. It often takes many years to confirm because in the early stages it can be mistaken for other mental illness — or a midlife crisis. Sometimes it can take more than a decade before the more extreme symptoms surface.

Unless they had a workup of some sort, there is no way for someone to definitively say in the early stages that their spouse did not have this or any other condition.

MLC is an umbrella term. It is a description of a behavior pattern. The term itself and taboos around mental illness prevent many of us from advocating for ourselves.

My feeling is that “pave the way” should come only after a level of triage that involves self protective measures and other questions and steps that could help someone determine whether this was more likely to be a passing crisis or symptoms of a more serious condition.

This seems like the very most responsible course to ensure that the advice on these forums do not harm anyone.

[Nas]

My very close friend’s father sadly passed away from bvFDT this past April. He was in his early 50s.
His disease did progress over the course of about a decade, and in the first months he exhibited some behavior that on paper would say “MLC” yo anyone dealing with MLC, but in real life looked different.

What we describe in all of our various threads using words can be perceived differently by different people. And as with everything, seeing it in real life is often very different than reading about it from a personal description.

I have no doubt that that former poster read a lot of threads here and recognized elements of bvFDT based on what was written. But if she’d seen her ah and the MLCers side by side in real life, the distinction would have seemed more obvious.

Same with bipolar, severe depression, NPD and myriad other diagnosable illnesses.

Most people who come to this forum are traumatized simply due to the major change in their spouse, but it’s really a relatively smaller percentage who are dealing with physical abuse or extreme psychological abuse.
Every lbs should protect themselves, but “protect” is a broad term and I would be careful about generalizing about things such as that every lbs is at risk of physical harm.

In reality, the affair is sometimes the only replay behavior an MLCer will exhibit, and in those cases, a blanket statement about divorcing immediately and going NC may not apply.

[xyzcf]

This thread, however, is NOT discussing medical issues so please return to the topic.

So as UM says - this thread is about paving the way and not re-hashing old stories or accusations. So please keep on topic.

I will be the third moderator to request that this thread return to the topic..What do you think it means to Pave the Way?

Velika, you have expressed your views on this several times. Other people have disagreed or have had different views than your view.

What do you think it means to Pave the Way?

This does not ask whether paving the way is right or wrong. Whether it is detrimental to the LBSer or not.

Paving the way has not caused me any harm. I like the concept and as a stander continue to pave the way when I can..just like the term "be the lighthouse" is also one that I like in MY SITUATION.

10 years after BD, my husband is sharp as ever, highly successful in his field and shows absolutely NO SIGNS of any pathology. I think we would find that true in most of the situations that are discussed on Hero's Spouse which is specifically set up to deal with the topic of Mid Life Crisis.

So let's get back to what RCR has asked.

[Velika]

XYZ I get what you are saying. However, I deeply disagree that most people on this forum are simply dealing with a crisis. If this were the case you would see more variation in the stories and wild fluctuation in timelines.

A once truly genuinely devoted and loving spouse who has not returned after 10 years is either well and not interested in returning, or unable to connect to his past life and relationships due to an impairment that may not affect cognition but does affect other parts of the brain.

Concepts like paving the way and being the lighthouse are beautiful but meaningless if the spouse is unwell and has an irreversible condition. In this case, being a lighthouse might actually mean advocating for a diagnosis or help.

bvFTD did receive a diagnosis. Her husband was diagnosed with the bvFTD after showing nearly identical symptoms and behavior pattern as to what we regularly see described here.

She was one of the few posters I have ever heard of who had in fact planned ahead to make sure that once her now ex could not care for himself would have a place to live, despite the fact that he had treated her just as poorly as our spouses have treated us. She showed true agape love in this with no hope of any recognition.. She was on this forum to try to advocate for LBS, some of whom are driven to suicide, depression, and years of trauma, in part because their experience is misunderstood and minimized,  trivialized, or mischaracterized.

I won’t post any more to this thread. I just want to note this for concern for the welfare of anyone at all who arrives here. Please please please look at family history, physical symptoms, recent changes to medication etc etc before you decide this is a midlife crisis you can wait out. Sometimes timing is the essence and there really are things you can do to protect yourself, your spouse, your children, or all three.

[Rollercoasterider]

RCR asked "what do you think it means to pave the way?" not whether or not paving the way was a good or bad thing for the LBSer.

Trust xyz to yank us from the meandering garden path!

You are quite right.  Threads can very easily get diverted to subjects totally unrelated to the original question.

So, back to the question.  ‘What do you think it means to Pave the Way’

And, straight away to the garden path!

I do think another question needs to be asked even before this one.  You have actually summarized what many were trying to express: Is paving a good or bad thing for the LBS? 

Another question that naturally flows from ‘Is paving a good or bad...’ is: Does ‘paving the way’ reinforce, or provide an outlet for, LBSs’ fabulous fixing tendencies?  That we can do something to bring MLCer back? 

On the one hand, we are told there is nothing we can do about MLC or MLCer.  On the other, there is a message (pave the way) that CAN be interpreted as, rightly or wrongly, there IS something we can do to influence the chances of MLCer returning.  After all, many joined the forum in the hope of reconciliation, so, it’s not that difficult to interpret the message this way.

The discussion so far shows that some have misgivings about the pressure LBS feels when faced with ‘pave the way’ message when we are actually trying to stay alive in a devastating emergency situation.  After one has recovered and can see the woods for the trees, can we turn our attention to paving for others.  Until then, and who knows how long, we are way too busy paving our own and that of our children. 

There I go again down the meandering garden path...

Thank you Xyzcf!
I asked for what you feel it means rather than whether you think it is a good idea because the latter is based on the former. How you are defining it will lead you to feel or believe it is a positive or negative thing to do. Having seen posts where Paving the Way was said to be a bad idea or a waste, I wonder what those posters think it means because given how I define it in it's most pure or basic form, I have trouble understanding how anyone can consider it to not be positive or something you can do with or for any person--directly or indirectly.
Those are excellent questions Acorn, but the answers are still based on my initial question: How are you defining Paving the Way?

I have said there is nothing you can do about MLC...perhaps other than accept it. But I have tried to avoid saying that we cannot influence outcomes. We can choose to be gracious or scorned and those ways of behaving toward our MLCer and others can make a difference. That does not mean it will make the full difference newbies want--eventual reconciliation. Do newbies grasp onto that idea that we are able to influence? Sure they do and some run with it, thinking they have some new power which they must now amplify for increases chances. That does bring up the question, what is influence--do we mean full power to control? NO! Nudge? Not even that. Those imply an agenda and though each individual may have one, Paving the Way does not.

Many people who arrive at this site do so in a deep state of trauma. They don't have the perspective many people commenting here have.

Paving the way means to create circumstances that make an outcome more likely.

Though that might be a possible result of Paving the Way, it is not what it means.

I am not trying to be rude or arrogant. Some will argue that we each have the right to define...
As the author who has coined the term, I use it with an intended meaning and so reading what I write and applying a different definition will skew what I am saying and the advice that goes with it.

Do you know I wonder if it is time for RCR to consider dropping the Pave The Way stuff altogether and replacing it with something which is more like Limit the Collateral Damage?
Reading others thoughts here has been rather enlightening tbh.

Why drop Paving The Way?
Bc there is something in the phrase that feeds into a kind of desperate misguided LBS denial and the kind of magical thinking that V described.  It implies a lot of things that have big emotional resonance. Home. Return. Influence. Strength. Support. Activity. Even a sense of the LBS being 'right' and knowing better than the poor lost 'wrong' MLCer.
Bc as Thunder says it only seems to reach most MLCers either on their way in or way out of crisis.
And usually by the time the LBS has any idea what is going on, it's too late. Either bc the MLCer is both feet into crisis, or years later perhaps if they reappear, bc the LBS has been forced to move on.
And it is one more impossible thing for a reeling battered LBS to feel they 'should' do usually when they are struggling to eat, sleep or string a coherent sentence together.
And one more thing that the LBS tries to do and fails so it makes them feel even more sense of despair.
And it runs counter to the oft-repeated 'it's not about you' and 'nothing you say/do will make a difference to how their crisis unfolds' principles so it is a bit confusing.

Maybe Paving The Way should be repositioned and explored as a prelude to reconnection? Something that might come later? I agree with the 'remember how we treated them' idea...but it isn't a guarantee is it? Most MLCers simply don't see or value our kindness or integrity at the time, even twist it to a kind of pressure actually. I think we should do it anyway for our own health and self respect but most newbie LBS come here believing that they can 'nice them back' or at least 'nice them into not being an insane monster'. I've not seen much evidence of that working in the stories here but some evidence of LBS martyring themselves or not looking after their own interests strongly enough bc they think it will get in the way of a future reconciliation.

There were some new and interesting as well as positive interpretations in the first days of this thread, but the first of the recent posts have lead to a discussion that shows a lack of understanding of the simple concept.

Coining terms and phrases (Paving the Way, Mirror Work, Boomerang...) is part art. I think Paving the Way was something that came natural to me when I was an LBS; I just started using it. Someone else started using the term Mirror-Work--I think it was here on this forum and it took me a lot of trial and error before I landed on Clinging Boomerang, Boomerang, Off-and-On and Vanisher. Limiting Collateral Damage is an excellent concept, but the term feels too clinical (ironic since I often feel I can be rather clinical) and may be difficult for an LBS to assimilate as they read. It may take a few pass overs to get it--different than the re-readings over months and years that many of you do.

To reposition it with Reconnection would do what so many of you are complaining it does and make it more about reconciliation--with it as a step to get there.

So maybe validation is part of paving the way.

It most definitely is.

I still see paving the way as leaving a way for them to come home should they choose to do so and you choose to leave a path open. And it includes boundaries, courtesy, requirements, and getting yourself in a place where you become the person YOU want to be, not the person someone else wants you to be. Paving the way is NOT pretzeling yourself to make someone want to come home. It's making it so they don't NOT want to come home.IMO.

This is an excellent interpretation. There is both more and less to it, but this is good.

I started this thread as a way to research how you understand the concept so I may explain it better. I am not going to do that on this thread because what I have right now is disconnected ideas as I put together what I would like to say.
The phrase Lead the Way is interesting, but directs the focus back to a direct object of the statement which is being led--and for Standers that direct object is going to be their MLCer. Paving the Way is about the Way rather than a direct object which may or may not choose to walk on the paved way. I think the concept of Being the Lighthouse may be the way we say Lead the Way.

We cannot control the myriad ways people interpret a single phrase, concept, article forum... What we can do is be sensitive to the differences. When writing for the general MCL Stander I need to be general which pretty much means middle of a graph where most LBSs fall close to the line. Some articles address specific types and so for those I write for that generalized type. When coaching I am able to be more specific since I am working with an individual and have their unique present case and history before me.

XYZ I get what you are saying. However, I deeply disagree that most people on this forum are simply dealing with a crisis.

Xyzcf's point is that whether people on this forum are simply dealing with crisis or more than crisis (or perhaps a greater crisis) is not the topic of this thread. But it is a perfect example of the reason I created the various topic icons. I want to encourage discussion of topics that may be controversial concerning the forum topic. We need to watch such discussions carefully because people become so upset and take things personally, but if all we do is surround ourselves with those who agree we become stagnant and fail to learn and progress.

[Anjae]

The reason why you see people saying Paving The Way is a waste of time (myself included) is because most of us will never reconcile. Therefore, wasting time Paving The Way (like Treasur asked, for what) that is geared at the MLCer and MLC outcome and not geared at the LBS is a waste a time, as well as another level of worry for LBS that are dealing with BD.

Like Thunder said, Paving The Way is more effective at BD/early on. Exactly the time period LBS tend either to be a mess and/or need to focus on themselves.

What is the purpose of something that is only going to serve a handful of LBS rather than most LBS and why do you find it so important given it does not seem to affect the odds? The odds lie on the LBS wanting, or not wanting, the MLCer back.

Even if HS did not existed I actually Paved The Way according to your definition. It was stupid. It would had been better to put the energy and thought on my rather than thinking it was a good idea to be nice to my nasty, violent MLCer. He would dine at our flat, would be there nearly every day, we attended social functions together, etc. Result? Zero.

It was the most stupid thing ever. The right thing to do would had been getting a divorce as soon as OW1 was made public.

Xyzcf, Mitz and others have done nothing but Paving The Way. So far, result zero. Xyzcf, Mitz and a few others will most likely reconcile when their MLCer wants back. They would anyway, just like you and Stayed did.

LP's husband has been wanting back. She never Paved The Way. I doubt it makes much of a difference it a LBS does, or does not, Pave The Way.

Being gracious towards our MLCers is just being civil, not Paving The Way.Not for me, at least. The other thing is, several of us have vanishers or MLCers that become distant. There is no Paving The Way for many LBS even if the LBS would like to do it.

As for leaving the door open to the MLCer ... many that are still here, or had been here in the past did it at first. Time and time and time went by, the MLCer remained in Replay/crisis, LBS moved on. HS is filled with LBS that Paved The Way, even if they did not knew what it was, and have not, and will never reconcile.

In my view there many subjects far more important than Paving The Way.

If one is Paving The Way, logically, one is Paving The Way towards something. That something is never happening for most of us. So, again, like Treasur asked, Paving The Way to what? To what will never happen for most?


Regarding degenerative neurological disorders. It is obvious most of us are not dealing with a spouse that has one. Our MLCers remain capable and able even more than 10 years after BD. Someone suffering from a neurological degenerative disorder would had degenerate.

Also, MLCers tend to go back to normal. People with neurological degenerative disorders do not.

[karmirtsaghik]

I believe the key question we should ask of ourselves is "Pave the way for who?" "Who is the object of paving the way?" If it is for ourselves then we can work on it, put an effort to achieve desirable outcome.
However If we pave way for MLC ers, then we are forgetting that we cannot control their processes. They will continue to do what they want to do, irregardless of what we do. I personally will be kind and compassionate, but never lose my integrity. Because at the end of this, in whichever way it ends, I am still a person who should be able to get up in the morning and look myself in the mirror.

Love to you all.

[Anjae]

In RCR concept, Paving The Way is for a possible reconcilion/in reconciliation in view.

I agree it should be for who, and the who should be the LBS.

First and foremost I think LBS should be kind and compassionated towards themselves. But we all, I have been there, tend to put the MLCer/marriage ahead of us at BD and for a while after.

[hopeandfaith]

I actually think that RCR's article is timeless. 

I hadn't read it in a long while until Xyxcf reposted it.  The first paragraph says it all.  It is about the LBS but we read any mention of the possible payoff with the MLCer as unhealthy focus on them. If that article didn't include the MLCer in the list of possible positive recipients of such behaviour, it would lose many an early reader.  It's not until later when we really take in the part about this behaviour being good for us.  It is a good way to live life.  It is a good model for dealing with EVERYONE.  Self love is at it's core.

It reminds me of the 12 steps (AA, Alanon and other groups).  These take quite some chewing to get and even then, individual's interpret and apply them differently.  They too are timeless - and a lot more confusing IMO.

It makes me sad to read of posters who wished they'd done it different early on.  Each person makes decisions and changes when they are ready to.  Chances are that early on, they probably ignored the type of advice they are now giving too because their fractured hearts were just not ready to hear it.

[Anjae]

It makes me sad to read of posters who wished they'd done it different early on.  Each person makes decisions and changes when they are ready to.  Chances are that early on, they probably ignored the type of advice they are now giving too because their fractured hearts were just not ready to hear it.

Of course I wish I had done things differently early on. There was no advice in 2006. There was no HS. I didn't ignore a thing I was told by people in RL.

I wish people in RL weren't of the opinion Mr J would soon be home and we would work things out and I wish I had friend like Xyzcf that made sure I saw a lawyer and sort the legalities out. I wasn't ready, but waiting until I was, well, it turned out really, really bad for me.

Sometimes we need someone that really helps with practical stuff.

The only reason Paving The Way article exists is because it is geared at reconciliation (a thing that will never happen for most of us), it is not called LBS self-care and like you said, it mentions the MLCer. It is also called Paving The Way. If one is Paving The Way one is Paving it for something, in the case of the article, a reconciled marriage.

The model is good, but attaching it to the MLCer/reconciliation does no favours. Later is too late for Paving The Way since it is meant to be something that is better used early on. Also, later, many of us have longed moved on.

I truly do not understand why wasting time on a new article, or articles, on Paving The Way. There really are much and many more relevant, practical issues for LBS.

Maybe you missed the part my MLCer was physically violent. I was having a man that had been physically violent for dinner and going out with him on social occasions. If I wasn't out of mind I don't know what I was. Even if he hadn't been physically violent, he was involved with another woman.

It makes no difference if it was because of MLC or not. He had someone else. That alone is enough reason for I to had divorce him right away. If I was me, which I wasn't. It was the most stupid thing I did in my life. Or didn't do.

You don't like that I think it was stupid? Well, it was. I gained nothing by remaining married and I have no idea why I thought it was a good idea to give someone who had got involved with someone, left, etc. a second chance. If you think the answer is love, it isn't. Love would have walked away from someone and something that was not good for me.