[Treasur]

I think sometimes it is quite hard for a middle/old timer to be exposed to the deep pain and confusion of a newbie. Not bc we don't remember it but bc we do. I know now I see newbies post things and it is like looking back at myself and some of my own assumptions that proved to be so damaging to me just as Nerissa says. The 'but my spouse would never do x' or 'how can he/she do x' or 'but our relationship was special'.....

It is tempting sometimes to just not step in.
At other times you feel so worried about someone's wellbeing when you see a scream of pain that you really want to virtually hold them.

I think it is quite a difficult balance. The LBS vet can see things from a distance albeit through the bias of their own experience and there is a kind of hope and comfort in that. But the LBS vet probably sees and knows things that the newbie has not yet discovered about the experience. Not always but often. So, we know that most MLCers have affairs...no matter if they were faithful spouses before. We know that most lie about mostly everything and it is crazymaking. We know that if an MLCer says they will do x on Tuesday, the chances are high that it won't happen. We know that many spend money like water with no thought of the consequences. We know that they become staggeringly self-centred. We know that things will usually get much worse before they get better. Are these things always true? No...but more often than not in our collective experience. And tbh there is a bit of an LBS script too isn't there? And the horse to water principle and time?

So, as a more experienced head - and I completely agree with you Steel about time to breathe, about being able to respond rather than react - it is not always easy to responsibly point out the potential danger zones whilst also comforting and validating. Some vets, and I think LP is one (and like you I found her old posts invaluable too) choose not to interact with newbies whereas others like Thunder do. Maybe different folks add different value on HS at different stages? There probably is a generation gap as you say that works both ways maybe.

Maybe if we think a vet is being a bit heavy handed or too directive, someone like you could post to rebalance that if you see it? I guess the thing that seems important to me about newbies is that they are traumatised and that makes them maybe overly vulnerable to treating either RCR or others as 'gospel' to follow before they have had time to catch their own breath and see their own wood for the trees. As Nerissa says most of us come here fragile and wounded....but the vets are also living proof that we will not always feel how we feel right now, that there may be scars that folks in RL don't always get but there is also hope for a life beyond this time.

[SteelSpine]

Maybe if we think a vet is being a bit heavy handed or too directive, someone like you could post to rebalance that if you see it?

I see what you did there!

I should. You are right.

[Thunder]

I loved your post, Nerissa.  I so agreed with what you said.

RCR, do you want to start a new thread, or continue on with this one? 

[Not Applicable]

I think it I had read RCR's words that she wanted this to be a safe place for standers a year ago, I would have been all gung ho about it.

Now, I'm not sure. I've been having long discussions with another stander lately. I won't say anything more than that to protect this person's privacy, but we have revised our thinking on all things MLC during this discussion.

Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc. A person can be stander for one reason but not necessarily agree with the reasons that others stand. Some people have at-home MLCers and are standing, others have MLCers who are divorced and remarried. I do not think all standing is created equally.

But more importantly is that we seem to be expected here to blindly support someone simply because they are a forum member. That seems to have even grown to supporting the opinions of MLCers who join! Which personally I think is like letting the fox into the henhouse to advise the hens about anti-fox security. But I digress.

Through my discussion with my friend, we have noticed that there are some standing LBSes whose own description of their relationships led us to the conclusion that their "MLCers" (I put it in quotes because in some cases we are not convinced 100% they are dealing with MLC) might actually be better off without the LBS because the LBS appears to be the bad half of a bad marriage. So it is hard for me to get behind the idea of supporting all standers when based on their own descriptions of themselves, those standers appear to be abusive towards their spouses in some way.

There are standers who believe standing is a moral imperative. There are some of us standers who believe it is a choice, one of several valid choices a person can make in response to a spouse with MLC. And there are even some of us standers who believe that standing beyond a divorce is not a good thing, for several reasons.

My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?

[Nerissa]

My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?

Should she have to?  I think if the flavour of this forum is unpalatable, we can go to others  which suit us better.  I wouldn’t remain If I couldn’t get behind a majority of posters to some extent st least.

[Not Applicable]

Sure, I can see your point. But I also feel I can get behind some people on here who have chosen to divorce as well. And I am glad they are here, because let's face it, standing is sort of an oddball choice and is not the norm and personally I don't think it should be promoted over any other choice, and I think it is helpful to have people here who have chosen not to stand to remind us all what our options are, even if we don't choose them. I feel supportive toward those who are making what I consider to be "good" choices for themselves and their spouses, and that differs from case to case, and may be standing or may not be.

I did not come to this forum because it was for standers. I came to this forum because it was about MLC. Yes, it was specifically for standers in those days but that really was not what attracted me here. Now, there are some who may not even have MLCers but some forum members will say that it they should be supported in being here just as much as those who don't have MLCers.

If you want to take an inclusive approach, then you would have to welcome all who are having some sort of marriage difficulties. If you want to be very narrow about it, you would have to focus on standers with MLCers. The former to me seems to dilute the purpose, and the latter seems to be a bit too strict. I'm not saying i have an answer to how you strike a balance. But just pointing out it isn't black and white.

[Not Applicable]

And I just wanted to add, that to me the biggest value of this forum is NOT the forum as a whole, but as a place where I was able to connect with a handful of other LBSes whose situations in some way was similar to mine that I have developed a friendship with and we support one another outside of the forum.Those people are far more valuable to me than the entire forum put together. I don't need the entire forum to be likeminded or even supportive of my views. And I think having diversity in the forum is helpful in that regard because that means anyone wandering in here is likely to find a few others that they can rely on in that manner.

[megogirl]

Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc.

NYM

I am confused.  What do you mean by "prove a point?"

What point does Standing prove? 

[lawprofessor]

My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?

Should she have to?  I think if the flavour of this forum is unpalatable, we can go to others  which suit us better.  I wouldn’t remain If I couldn’t get behind a majority of posters to some extent st least.

Well I think she almost has to after the post last night.

Some have suggested different forum boards for Stander's and for non-standers.  This was met with a no and a couple Standers posted objections on the mod board.

Some suggested a separate board for newbies vs old timers.  Once again a no.

And now the topic comes up again about the safety of Stander's combined with the safety of newbies this time.  I have to wonder just how long before another group is added to the list and there is even less room for an old-timer to participate here with anything substantive.

I tried last night to understand the concerns and see things from another perspective without getting irritated.  This morning after some thought I'm less inclined to do so and moving to the Why bother camp because frankly it's not worth the aggravation particularly with no firm direction or resolution.

No Steelspine you didn't trigger me.  And I wouldn't have  replied if I didn't think you have a right to your opinion even if I don't necessarily agree with it in full.

I'm simply tired of having to be responsible for another's triggers, tired of the implied suggestion that it's myself and similar others that need to change their style because someone somewhere that may possibly read my writing may in some unforseen way be triggered by a comment versus the person who is being triggered owning any responsibility for their reactions and reactivity.  Yes, I am personalizing this because if it's OK for others, it must be OK for me as well,

Frankly, under that structure I don't see anyway to have substantive discussions.  Which, from my perspective leaves me further in the Why bother camp.

Not so long ago it was RCR who repeatedly said if something triggers you, you have a responsibility to address the trigger, to find out the why and address it.  I guess that's no longer in vogue.  It's all about a safe place when so far there seem to be no examples of this being unsafe for anyone just a lot of feelings, perceptions, and what ifs and concerns that may or may not be valid.  We just don't know.

What I do know though is that until I hear something more definitive than that post last night,  I'm in the Why bother camp happily enjoying the return of my retirement from actively posting on this site because I'm not about to try to please everyone under these strictures and certainly don't have the time or desire to tailor my responses based on an impossible set of unknowns.  See, that makes it unsafe for me to post here.  (Kidding...in some ways). 

I wish you all well.

Lp

[Not Applicable]

Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc.

NYM

I am confused.  What do you mean by "prove a point?"

What point does Standing prove?

Well I never said standing proves anything, so maybe you can answer your own question. I didn't even use the word "prove" so I think you might find the source of your confusion right there to begin with.

I simply wanted to lay the foundation for what I was about to say in the following paragraphs. That when we talk about standing, it isn't always the same thing as people have different motivations as to why they stand and stand under very different circumstances.

Just to add to LP's point as well. I sort of straddle the fence on this. I do believe that others can upset or hurt us or even trigger us. But then we have a choice, we can start pointing fingers and throwing tantrums and trying to get the person to shut up or put on moderation or deal with it with grace and self-control and realize that the person who triggered us is not the person who created the mental state within us that led to our being triggered. We have a choice, be the better person or lash out. And really to be constantly responding to triggers is kind of like what our MLCers do and so really if they must fix their own problems, then maybe some LBSes should do the same.