Author Topic: Interacting with Your MLCer What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2  (Read 493 times)

Offline RollercoasteriderTopic starter

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Interacting with Your MLCer What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« on: August 11, 2019, 10:03:28 PM »
Previous Thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10981.0


First, I just want to say that this discussion is great! I am having so much fun reading it.
There are a lot of things to respond to from a few days back--like Ready2Tranform's great post about me needing to make sure I maintain the focus for this forum that I want. Too much to think about and say to do it now other than when it comes down to it I want a safe place for Standers. Does that mean I want to forum to focus on Standing? I feel wrong to say yes because I have always known (wished it were different) that Standing is often a temporary state and most will choose to stop eventually and I don't want those people (most oldtimers here!) to feel this is not also your place...and that is I think where things get mixed up.

Okay, enough about that for now, because I really am posting now to respond about Standers feeling they are getting retaliation and Anjae and LawProfessor's questions.

I don't know specifically and am probably missing some or many of the things that trigger or bother Standers, but here is something...

I believe in asking the hard questions, but out in the real world people often do that with a different attitude.
Why are you doing that?
Why do you want to be with him?
Why do you love her?


Suppose those are asked with a neutral tone--possibly in a counseling session. Great questions. We do need to think those through for ourselves. But as you know, out in the real world people ask those type of questions with an implied tone that you are not making the right choice. Now that happens on here as well--though without the benefit of tone, perhaps we are inferring rather than the writer implying.
Because I think those questions are important when the person asking is genuinely seeking to help or guide the person to look inside for the answers, I typically let the person know I am asking that sort of question, but not meaning it with the derision we so often hear and certainly not with am implied correct answer.

I have also seen this sort of thing as statements--not directed at an individual, but said generally. They look something like this
I don't know why anybody would...

Anjae, I think I've seen you make this sort of statement in recent posts. Not sure if those were the words, as I'm just creating an example of that type of thing.

Leading questions
I'm not talking about leading questions in law or those used by marketers--not that those are not also annoying  ;). Sometimes a person is so certain that everyone must feel the same that they can't imagine someone disagreeing. When Chuck asks questions like that, he is not meaning to lead me to an answer, they are more like statements in question form and when I disagree it can sometimes be kind of funny because he is so surprised!
Don't you think...
You don't want to... do you?

Those aren't great examples, I usually can think of better ones, so sorry.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 11:44:21 AM by OldPilot »

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 12:16:07 AM »
Hmmm Rcr, I hope you are going to follow up on that post because I'm less clear now than before on the questions I asked. 

Yes, it's likely where things are getting mixed up, in wanting to provide a safe place for Stander's but also to want to include non-standers. 

My question is why the focus isn't to provide a safe place for all rather than Stander's?

If it can't be an an inclusive place for both, then would you prefer that all of us non-standers leave in order to ensure safety for the Stander's as in Ready's words HS shouldn't try to be all things to all people. (And I happen to agree with her on that point.).

In fact, I don't see how you can achieve both a virtually  trigger free place for Stander's and at the same time an inclusive place for non-standers and old timers as there is no limit to what may trigger any one person.

You began addressing things that trigger Stander's.  I assume that's just a couple examples off the top of your head.  So it would be easy to read into the meaning behind the post that you agree Stander's are getting retaliation so it's unsafe for them to post.  Is this accurate?

It's also possible to read into your post that non-standers need to either tread carefully as to what they say or how they say it so as not to trigger any possible stander who may possibly read the post.  Is this not an impossible expectation particularly in discussion threads where a variety of topics are discussed from a variety of angles informed by a variety personal experiences, different cultures, different socio-economic backgrounds etc?  Again to protect against Stander's who may become triggered?  Or will you do away with discussion threads?  Or do you have a plan for limiting possible triggers by topic say? 

Finally, it appears you are leaning towards suggesting that non-standers have a responsibility to not trigger Stander's.  Do Stander's have a reciprocal responsibility to not trigger non-standers? 

Steelspine, thank you for your response.  I'm not trying to beat up on you in the following but to make a generalized point:

To quote you,
"But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie."

That could describe both Anjae and myself and quite a few others who are current or former mentors.  I've mentored more than a few newbies officially and unofficially.  Is it fair for you to assume I was not a great choice considering you and I have not interacted that I recall? Am I being judged fairly when I'm not aware that you have any knowledge of my mentoring style or skills? Perhaps I was a poor choice but I'm not aware of any complaints from those I mentored.  Should I state that triggers me or should I listen with an open mind to your opinions and concerns?  True, it's a moot point as I'm no longer mentoring but that's how easy it is to claim someone triggers another person rather than listening and examining the trigger.  If so I would be personalizing your comment to being directed at me when I don't know if it was or was not intended for me and if you meant it negatively or as a generalized comment in relation to what you feel is best.

Perhaps you think only Stander's should mentor? 
That leaves out most of the old timers and a large percentage of the Mod board including all or most of the men if memory serves me, as well as Old Pilot, an admin.  That's fine with me but I'm not certain that is/was workable based on the make up of the Mod board and the number of newbies on the site at a given time

I am not trying to be provoking, just trying to get an understanding of the direction this forum is moving so I can wisely invest my limited time. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Anjae

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 12:54:55 AM »
quote author=lawprofessor link=topic=10981.msg737599#msg737599 date=1565579066]
Anjae we both have been around long enough to have seen these assertions before.
[/quote]

We have indeed.

I think the non-standers reconcile thing is new. Or, at least, it didn't used to be brought up that much. I find it something of interest.


I too hope you follow up on the post, RCR. I find a bit confusing and I am not certain it answered my questions.


I don't know why anybody would...

Anjae, I think I've seen you make this sort of statement in recent posts


I may have, but it was not addressed at standers or anyone in particular. It was a broad question on, if I am not mistaken something like are these people worthy taking back, are they worthy of us?

The question was for everyone, myself included. The other one, if I am not mistaken was, why take a cheater back, MLC or no MLC. Again, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, it was a broad questions, for myself included.


It is not just the old timers that have stop standing. There are HS members that quickly after BD, or a couple years after BD, are in a new relationship or marriage. If anything, several old timers stood for a long time and some are still standing.


The other thing with Standing is that it does not mean reconciliation and non-standers happen to reconcile. Therefore, if the end goal is reconciliation, is standing that important? In itself it does assure it and not standing can end in reconciliation.


I would say HS is safe for standers, but for many standing is indeed temporary. However, MLC related issues remain even when a person stops standing. Standing or not standing LBS need support for a number of MLC related issue.  If non-standers also reconcile, they may want to have HS as a safety net in case a reconnection/reconciliation happens.



... though without the benefit of tone, perhaps we are inferring rather than the writer implying.



I think lack of tone a lot of times leads to inferring something the writer is not implying. It is often just a question.


"But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie."

I must say this one let me a bit  :o Like LP said, several Old Timers were mods and mentors, some still are. Many are no long standing, some still stand. Removing the non-standers from helping newbies and others is removing a good portion, if not most of HS. It is also to lose valuable knowldge.

Yes, nearly all or most of the men would had to be left out and even many, if not most of the women.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online Treasur

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 12:59:15 AM »
Was musing on the Stander issue on my walk this morning...

Firstly, a practical suggestion. If it is very important to you that people's responses to your posts should be in the context of your choice to Stand, then why not put Stander in the little bit of text at the end of your posts? Easy for people to see as a reminder who might not be familiar with your history or story. Same reason why it is helpful to see if people have kids, if the MLC spouse is living elsewhere, when BD was or if they are divorced for context.

Then I was thinking about what differentiates a Stander from a non Stander or from those 'If-ers' as UM calls them who are probably somewhere in the middle. Is standing a set of beliefs, a personal label, a context, a lifestyle? Does it exclude or include some issues or discussions depending on which you are?

I remember reading an old thread of xyzcf's called something like 'What I believe' in which she explained her path to her current faith and how that shapes her choices. It was a very interesting read and made it very clear why she feels the way she does about standing. I have said here that I am not standing bc of what I believe about the reality of my own situation and my own wellbeing. But truthfully I live like a Stander right now in many ways...I have religious views about m, divorce was not my choice, I am not dating, and if I ever do I would not remarry..but I also am divorced, have no contact with my vanished h  and do not think of my xh as my h. Which is probably sane as he is someone else's h lol. My focus is on my own recovery after losing my h and other important things in this extraordinary and often incomprehensible way.

My own experience (which was completely shocking to me at the time) of being financially abused, gaslit and personally threatened probably does make me want to encourage LBS to be tougher earlier on actions to protect themselves as opposed to 'Paving The way' for an MLC spouse. I think there is an unintentional trap and a dissonance in believing that we have much influence over an MLC spouse in active crisis. My own experience of grief and PTSD probably makes me more focused on understanding why it isn't always so straightforward to do what you know you should do and encouraging people to detach to protect their sanity over their marriage. But if there is a middle ground that means people don't have to run to file - if only bc an MLC divorce is rarely an easy thing lol - I would support that bc I believe divorce is a terrible destructive thing for most people and families. I think that when I post to support others, it is important that I am respectful of where they are right now and aware of my own biases that might affect my posts. But I wonder sometimes if it really isn't as black and white as Stander vs not Standing and what Stander means in practice beyond a choice to hope or leave a door open for any potential reconciliation?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 01:05:35 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Anjae

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 01:18:42 AM »
Is standing a set of beliefs, a personal label, a context, a lifestyle? Does it exclude or include some issues or discussions depending on which you are?

Good questions. I don't know. I was never standing. When my BD happened I had never heard the term, there was no HS. Also, the term/concept does not exist in Portuguese. I have also always said that not standing was my way of standing. I needed to know I was free to do as I please. Date, not date, remarry, etc. I don't think standing or not standing includes or excludes any issues or discussions depending of which we are.

Discussions are for discussing.

If not dating is living like a stander, then I am living like a stander. My not dating has nothing to do with standing. I have dated and had a boyfriend in the past and dated a little last year. I just spend years looking after my maternal grandmother and had time for little else. Then I needed time and space alone.

Also, for me friendships are more important than dates. The American way of dating is odd for me. I would not have a problem with remarrying, but in my country there isn't much legal need for it since we have other legal ways of protection for couples that lead a joint life. It does not provide the same protection as marriage, but it is close.

I have no religious views of marriage or divorce. I had a civil wedding.  That is not to say I didn't mind with what happened, I did and it hurt big time, or that we ever thought about divorce. We thought we were going to be together forever.

Regarding standers, there are those that are conditional standers from the start. OffRoad being one of them. OffRoad always said that if her MLCer has OW she will stop standing. Most of us, and I think most standers, have a MCLer that has an alienator.

An MLCer divorce? My personall experience is that it is easier to reach a different galaxy and back to Earth.  ::)

But I wonder sometimes if it really isn't as black and white as Stander vs not Standing and what Stander means in practice beyond a choice to hope or leave a door open for any potential reconciliation?


It is probably not as black & white as Stander vs non Stander. Also, since non-standers reconcile, somehow those non-stander left the door open and had hope. Often non-standing is dating while the MLCer is in crisis, but still loving the MLCer and hope for reconciliation.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 02:33:56 AM »
I think that's an interesting point about defining the standers from the non-standers, Treasur.

For me there is more to it, though.

Listen everyone, I am not trying to be argumentative.  But I do have a tender heart for the newbie, and I think that this is the only place where that traumatized soul might have a chance just to breathe, without people wanting their money to "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE NOW!!' or telling them to "KICK THAT CHEATER TO THE CURB!!"

Just a chance to breathe. To collect themselves, to make sensible, measured preparations before they choose the path they are going to walk.


 Is it fair for you to assume I was not a great choice considering you and I have not interacted that I recall? Am I being judged fairly when I'm not aware that you have any knowledge of my mentoring style or skills? Perhaps I was a poor choice but I'm not aware of any complaints from those I mentored.  Should I state that triggers me or should I listen with an open mind to your opinions and concerns?  True, it's a moot point as I'm no longer mentoring but that's how easy it is to claim someone triggers another person rather than listening and examining the trigger.  If so I would be personalizing your comment to being directed at me when I don't know if it was or was not intended for me and if you meant it negatively or as a generalized comment in relation to what you feel is best.

Perhaps you think only Stander's should mentor? 
That leaves out most of the old timers and a large percentage of the Mod board including all or most of the men if memory serves me, as well as Old Pilot, an admin.  That's fine with me but I'm not certain that is/was workable based on the make up of the Mod board and the number of newbies on the site at a given time

I am not trying to be provoking, just trying to get an understanding of the direction this forum is moving so I can wisely invest my limited time. 

Lp

Well, I never claimed to be "fair" about anything (ask my boys).  I was just tossing out an opinion, as we all do. If I could, I would preface "not a great choice.." with "perhaps".

Lawprofessor, if I triggered you it would bother me. I have read everything you have ever posted, and your insights as your documented J's mlc taught me so much that you mentored me without even knowing.

I myself am not a stander.
I was, until six months ago, because, literally, my life depended on it. But as much as I loved my h, I was never very enthusiastic about standing. Too much damage.

My point is not about standers vs. non standers. It is about newbies. There have been times when I felt that the advice given by a veteran was - perhaps - too far removed from the rawness of the early stages for a newbie to connect with, in a meaningful way. 

No, I don't have the time to delve into the archives for cross-referenced examples, it is just a feeling I remember having when I have been reading threads.

As this board gets older the space between the ones who were here first, and the ones who have just arrived, grows. A generation gap.

And I don't mean every old timer, and I don't mean every newbie.

But I do believe that I have a consideration that is valid.
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 02:44:43 AM »
From a personal perspective, when I started reading here I was quite unwell psychologically.  I expect I wasn’t well for a good three years. I won’t be the only one.  So there’s that to consider.

I used tonread the hopeful threads.  I took a lot of notice of the ones which talked about tiny dat to day movenents and received encouragement.  It was sustainingnwhen I was in denial because the hurt was too much for me.  Some posts would jar.  I skipped over them fast.  I knew that they jarred because they spoke a possibility I was not ready to face. I wanted the comforting ones.   But as I progressed, I was more and more able to read the more robust posts which tended to have some excellent common sense advice.

Now on a forum, I wonder if both are useful at different times.  It’s clear that some posts are enabling and rather ‘  marshmallowing’ but they did help me.  Perhaps for a bit too long but that was my responsibility in the end.  I knew it is a forum of ordinary people with opinions.  It certainly ‘held’ me in positive ways when I was not coping.  I wallowed a bit too long and spent a bit too
Much time but I was incredibly fragile.  It saved me from burdening friends more than I already had.

Later in time, I see some posts as enabling co dependence. I used paving the way to continue my own Co dependent habits.  I’m not really sure what rcr can do about it.  I had an IC.  A really good one and she was t rushing me either.  There is no perfect path through this.  We are adults.  We have to be responsible for ourselves.  I believe the majority of posters limo along, using the forum as I did, to hold and carry until we can get up and walk again.  Denial is used when the pain of the truth is too great to bear.  I don’t think we can wrest someone out of that state in a forum.  But we can’t kitty foot around for members who feel stronger  and want more robust support, surely?  And I feel
It’s irresponsible not to gently point out behaviour that is emotionally abusive from a spouse.  One reality is that years spent in a marriage produces blind spots and unhealthy habits that need pointing out.i for one paid far too much attention to my husband because I was dependent emotionally and financially.  I gave up all Autonomy and I was struggling badly when it went wrong.  I needed to have people comment on this and when it stung I knew there was a truth I needed to absorb.

But in the end, this forum is made up of the folks who post.  It’s us.  we are all a little bit mad one way or another so we can’t expect perfection.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 02:46:34 AM »
Listen everyone, I am not trying to be argumentative.  But I do have a tender heart for the newbie, and I think that this is the only place where that traumatized soul might have a chance just to breathe, without people wanting their money to "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE NOW!!' or telling them to "KICK THAT CHEATER TO THE CURB!!"


But where exactly does this happen?  I don’t recognise it. I think people let the new person lead the way.

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 02:48:14 AM »
I meant elsewhere, not HS.

My evolution here was similar to yours, Nerissa. I doubt I could have handled the hard probabilities earlier than I did.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 02:53:30 AM by SteelSpine »
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 02:51:19 AM »
I meant elsewhere, not HS
[/quote

Sorry - I didn’t read properly before posting. I agree with you.

 

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