Author Topic: Discussion Debate vs Discussion  (Read 862 times)

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Discussion Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2019, 07:27:36 AM »
I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

The problem with debate or even discussion on this forum is that these two parts, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, are usually missing. And that's ok. But without them what is being presented is simply one person's opinion. And that's ok too. But we all have opinions and without something to support those opinions one person's opinion is no more meaningful than the next.

Anjae has complained that I go around saying that MLCers are abused people. I believe that's a misrepresentation of my actual opinion, just as NYM felt her opinion had been misrepresented in another thread, but for now let's say Anjae is correct. So what? That's my opinion. Aren't I allowed to have an opinion? I haven't complained about Anjae going around saying that MLCers aren't abused people.

If Anjae really believes my opinion is wrong and truly wishes to debate, as she often states, perhaps she could post some evidence supporting her position. Apocryphal stories about herself and a few people she knows add to our body of knowledge but, in my opinion, don't qualify as evidence. We have no way of knowing whether Anjae or the others she mentions actually experienced what we as a group would consider an MLC.

The following is a position statement that is not directly related to the debate vs. discussion topic. Feel free to ignore it.

Many children who are abused and/or emotionally neglected develop PTSD, Complex PTSD, or other more severe dissociative disorders. That is not my opinion. That is a well documented fact. Do a little research and you'll find lots of evidence supporting that statement.

For the record, my opinion is that the characteristics of adults with these conditions are remarkably similar to the characteristics of those people who we refer to on this forum as MLCers. Therefore, I believe (my opinion is) that it's worth considering that what we call MLC may already have been identified by the medical / mental health community.

I came here wondering why my wife's personality changed so radically. Based on the newbie's stories I have read, I believe many others come here with the same question. I believe people have the intelligence and the right to come to their own conclusions. I often post links to journal articles or articles from authoritative websites, not to prove that I'm right, but because I'm an educator and I like to provide additional information for those who are interested.
 
If you're not interested, ignore what I post and ignore the articles. It makes no difference to me because I'm not trying to prove that I'm right or that anyone is wrong. I'm just providing food for thought. At least. that's what I think I'm doing. You may have a different opinion regarding what you think I'm doing. Nothing I can do about that. You're all entitled to your opinions.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2019, 07:29:02 AM »
LP-I think there are probably some here who simply lack the educational background that we have who simply do not understand disagreements beyond the level of high school clique reactions. You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally. While I am fully aware that some people have not had the opportunity for to further their education in that manner, I also refuse to dumb it down to their level. Some people's idea of winning an argument is to tell others to ignore opinions they don't like. If this were a university, those people would fail their courses because they are incapable of even coming up with a cogent response to defend their own position.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2019, 07:34:54 AM »
I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

The problem with debate or even discussion on this forum is that these two parts, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, are usually missing. And that's ok. But without them what is being presented is simply one person's opinion. And that's ok too. But we all have opinions and without something to support those opinions one person's opinion is no more meaningful than the next.


I will plead guilty to that from time to time. I will admit there are some things that I do state very confidently and I know I do not give my reasons publicly. Those who know my whole story know why I don't share my evidence and reasons but they could also tell you I am not just spouting off and actually base my comments on experience that probably nobody else in this forum has had. Unfortunately, there are limits to the personal information that some of us are willing to share and when that personal information founds the basis for our assertions, we are in a bind. But when I feel confident about what I am saying, I am going to state it with confidence. The problem is some people see that as trying to push a point on others.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 07:37:41 AM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline Nas

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2019, 07:42:49 AM »
LP-I think there are probably some here who simply lack the educational background that we have who simply do not understand disagreements beyond the level of high school clique reactions. You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally. While I am fully aware that some people have not had the opportunity for to further their education in that manner, I also refuse to dumb it down to their level. Some people's idea of winning an argument is to tell others to ignore opinions they don't like. If this were a university, those people would fail their courses because they are incapable of even coming up with a cogent response to defend their own position.

This is one of the biggest problems on this forum.

LP wrote a harsh truth in a respectful way.
NYM, your words are elitist, rude, and suggest you are above others.

THAT’S WHERE YOU (specifically you, NYM) lose people.
That’s where your words lose all meaning for many because you insult and demean and then your entire point is lost.

There is disagreement and there are hard truths, and then there is just plain rude.
No one wants you to “dumb it down.”
But maybe you could “tone it down” and stop insulting people.

Just my opinion. And not that it should matter but I hold two masters degrees. Which makes my opinion no more or less valid than anyone else’s...in my opinion.

Sorry, I wasn’t going to participate in this thread, but NYM, IMO you cross a line quite often. You make some valid points but you also hurl a lot of unnecessary comments that don’t seem to have any purpose except to be insulting.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 07:43:52 AM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2019, 07:56:15 AM »
MB, your article are always interesting and thought provoking.   Some fascinating.

I do read them.   :)  I've learned a lot about dissociative disorders.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2019, 08:17:42 AM »
You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally.

I've been teaching at the University level for almost 30 years so I find it difficult to allow this statement to pass without comment. Over the years I have observed bitter disagreements between people with PhDs and huge egos who teach at and do research at the University level. In my opinion the ability to engage in civil discussion and debate is not limited to those with advanced degrees and isn't always possessed by those with advanced degrees. But I do believe that people who work in education may be more likely to back up their opinions with documented evidence.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2019, 08:49:04 AM »
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?

I came to this forum to learn about MLC. I came here as a student of MLC. Not a teacher. I do share my experience and my opinions because that is what one does when one hangs out in a certain environment, but honestly, if my experience and opinions are lost on others who only look at the tone and ignore the substance, that's their loss, not mine. I'm not here to be a guru of MLC and have lots of sycophant followers who hang on to every word. MLC is not my area of expertise and the last place I want to be in this forum is on a soap box. I'd rather be inside the box to be honest. I hate the pressure to share our stories about our MLC lives even because I prefer to live my life, not talk about it.

I've learned a lot by reading this forum, I've learned a lot from resources shared by others (especially the stuff MBIB has shared about CPTSD).  I've learned a lot from discussions I have with friends I've made here who I correspond with privately. It's helps me in dealing with my H's MLC. And that's the bottom line. I came here because I was facing challenges in my life and I needed strategies to deal with them. I came here for what really are simple practical reasons (you can call that a selfish reason if you want). And the forum has provided me with those. If that's all I get out of this forum, I'm a happy camper.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2019, 08:54:03 AM »

I've been teaching at the University level for almost 30 years so I find it difficult to allow this statement to pass without comment. Over the years I have observed bitter disagreements between people with PhDs and huge egos who teach at and do research at the University level. In my opinion the ability to engage in civil discussion and debate is not limited to those with advanced degrees and isn't always possessed by those with advanced degrees. But I do believe that people who work in education may be more likely to back up their opinions with documented evidence.

Yes, that is true. But I am not talking about people with higher degrees even. Part of what is taught in universities to even the freshman is how to engage in civil discussion and debate. I'm not talking about the kind of disagreements you see at an academic conference between two bitter rivals. I'm talking about the basic discussion and debate skills that are taught as part of university courses.  Let's be honest, there are some people here whose repertoire consists of nothing but the kind of insults you would find being made between 13 year old girls. It's a small minority of the forum, but there are some people you can't imagine having any sort of rudimentary adult conversation even.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Nas

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2019, 08:54:25 AM »
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?


Oh yeah. I got it, NYM. I definitely got it.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2019, 09:15:45 AM »
Read what I wrote, Brain, I said some MLCers are, or may be, abused people, but that MLCers, as in all MLCers, does not aplly.

But saying MLCers are abused people is small compared with others things you have been doing and that you do no seem to want to work on, namely your parts on the loose on HS that say the most awfyul things.

Since your parts do not show at work, not, from what I recall of what you wrote, in real life social settings, surely you are able to have some control over them. Otherwise, they would show here and there at work and in real life social settings, wouldn't they?

I am aware abuse or neglect can lead to PTSD and several other issues. However they do not lead in everyone and of those that suffer from it not all have a MLC.

Brain, I really think you should seriously focus on your very serious health issues. They have provoked hurt and problems on HS.

Your wife is your wife, she is not someone else's MLCer. A sample of one.  It is true some other MLCers were negletec and suffer abuse, but it still does not mean they are all disassociating.

We have no way of knowing whether Anjae or the others she mentions actually experienced what we as a group would consider an MLC.

We have no way of knowing anyone experienced a MLC. We only have what we are told. Single me out because you disagree with me, is, in my view, silly.

You have far bigger issues to deal with, if what you say is to be believed. We have no way of knowing you suffer from what you say you do, do we?

As I think you know since you seem familiar with articles on dissassociative disorder, disassociateve disorder (former multiple personality disorder) is a controvertial illness in which many psychiatrists and therapists, if not most, do not believe him. It is thought disassociateve disorder (former multiple personality disorder) is an illness created by the psychiatrist/therapist that plants the idea into the patient mind.

Surely, if seasoned, respectful professionals, have doubts about the illness we are also allowed to have them. Especially when, according to you, you are able to control your parts at work and in real life social functions.

Something that is not controllable does not tend to just be controllbale at will.

The proverbial self-work may be in order, Brain.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

 

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