Author Topic: Discussion Debate vs Discussion  (Read 859 times)

Online readytofixmyselffirst

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Discussion Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2019, 06:31:01 PM »
Hello,

I spent the weekend with Mom and Dad. I left my wife at home as I just left right from work and headed straight to their house. Otherwise a one and a half hour trip becomes four and a half hours if I go back home to pick my wife up. Weird being alone for the day. However, I spent Saturday washing and waxing my parent's car, then dinner. Got up this morning, cup of coffee and words with Dad. (Trump supporter and Fox news guru). Yes. Then home to exercise and take wife to Costco.

While I think the idea of debate and discussion is a topic I see as it really is splitting hairs. You can have a lively discussion that borders on open heated debate, and you can have debate that borders on sheer boredom of spending eight hours at the airport waiting for your delayed flight. Furthermore, as stated, a debate is typically moderated and the questions posed by the moderator with both sides given equal time to respond. So do we really debate? I don't think so. However, you are all free to post as I am about to post as well. However, I am going to drift a little and go in another direction.

I am going to focus on two aspects that have been alluded to but not expounded on:

Intent and delivery

As time has passed and I have grown as a man, I have passed certain phases. The first phase was being a "right" fighter.  My intent was to be right and I would post, say, or write anything to prove a point-even at the expense of a relationship. Like some that have posted, I would look the person who I hurt and say, I'm just looking at the facts.

My point is that my intent was not to help, influence, or assist the other person, it was to drive home a point- that I was right and it served my ego to be right.

My wife's MLC and time on the forum gave me a new perspective. That being right doesn't necessarily win you the game. A lot of wonderful people that have posted on the forum ending up on the short end of the stick despite all the good.

As I have progressed, my intent has changed. It has been posted by RCR that the best we can do to others including our MLCers is to influence them- not direct or coerce them. My intent is to support and strive to help the LBSer as they strive to survive and rebuild after bomb drop. Some people welcome my advice and others don't. I continue with those that ask and I drop those that don't. It's nothing personal, if I am not positively influencing why bang my head against the wall?

In the end, despite all that I strive to help, I will always be at a disadvantage because I can't read body language and often misconstrue or misinterpret what others are posting. Many times, I have responded only to go back and reread and realize I completely missed a statement or sentence. Oops.

I have an opinion, I state it. Simple as that.

There is nothing wrong or right with an opinion. Especially when you state specifically that it is an opinion and not a fact. Many who post are quick to add that they are just giving an opinion and it helps. My question to you, that I have done both on the forum and in personal message, is been why do you post? What is your intent?  Is it to prove a point? Is it to help the LBSer? If you read your post and to the reader, your can't infer the intent, maybe you should reconsider your post.

 
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?

I came to this forum to learn about MLC. I came here as a student of MLC. Not a teacher. I do share my experience and my opinions because that is what one does when one hangs out in a certain environment, but honestly, if my experience and opinions are lost on others who only look at the tone and ignore the substance, that's their loss, not mine. I'm not here to be a guru of MLC and have lots of sycophant followers who hang on to every word. MLC is not my area of expertise and the last place I want to be in this forum is on a soap box. I'd rather be inside the box to be honest. I hate the pressure to share our stories about our MLC lives even because I prefer to live my life, not talk about it.

I've learned a lot by reading this forum, I've learned a lot from resources shared by others (especially the stuff MBIB has shared about CPTSD).  I've learned a lot from discussions I have with friends I've made here who I correspond with privately. It's helps me in dealing with my H's MLC. And that's the bottom line. I came here because I was facing challenges in my life and I needed strategies to deal with them. I came here for what really are simple practical reasons (you can call that a selfish reason if you want). And the forum has provided me with those. If that's all I get out of this forum, I'm a happy camper.

If that's your intent, why not write your own thread and take the advice you seek? There are many that have and stay on their own thread. They don't seek information by posting on someone else's story or life. You don't have to post your life story or go deep, just ask the questions you seek and respond to the advice you receive.

Quote
I think I would tie it up by saying I would not hold it against anyone if they lack either debate or discussion skills, but I will hold it against them if they try to compensate for the lack of such skills by engaging in emotionally immature reactions.

I agree to some extent. But many times, we don't elicit a positive remark because the respondent lacks skills. It is simply because we have struck a nerve. Yet many times, we hurt others and don't respond with an apology. Our lack of an empathetic response can clearly demonstrate our true intent.

I also have read Angie's responses about the former MLCer. I have personally stayed away from the thread as I have little to offer either way. However, I do agree with Angie on several points. If we were a forum of family that lost a loved one to DUI, the last thing we would want is for a former person convicted of a DUI related death to come and post that it was all the fault of alcohol, or worse, the other driver. If you are going to come forward, own it.

Just like Law Professor stated, the MLCer needs to be held responsible, but so does the LBSer. During my wife's crisis, I made mistakes. I don't think I should have moved out. I read far too much into her actions when I should have been working on me. It's water under the bridge, but I own it. My choices, my actions, and I never tried to deflect or hold anyone in real life or on the forum for the consequences of my actions or my MLCer. It was our marriage- not anyone else.

The final point is about delivery. There is a reason why doctors are graded on bed side manner. Despite all the great knowledge and skill, a doctor with bad delivery can hurt just as much as a first year intern trying to figure out exactly where everything is in the hospital.

Yes, many doctors can state they are blunt and that's the way they are. Never going to change. Yet, they take an oath not to do the patient any harm. Blunt delivery can do great harm. Each one of us have our own distinct pressure points and with the right pressure, we can break. I know I hit mine and I did break, completely.

On this forum, if you find yourself pressing on someone's pressure point, is it good to continue to press on despite the potential harm or back off? If we are meant to support, is bitterly arguing and insulting someone going to ever have a positive outcome?

Is pounding them over the head going to change them? So far I have read little where heavy hitting has made anyone change course even if they are heading towards the iceberg. Just my opinion.

Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon and feels that I am saying that we all should be a bunch of yes men at anything that is posted, I soundly disagree. Two people told my SIL that she was going to die. Both were doctors- one had terrible delivery and it devastated her, left her in tears for days, the other one left her somber, but with dignity. That doctor wasn't a yes man. He was an honorable man. Which one would you want? It's not about always agreeing. It's how you disagree that makes the difference.

I don't have to post. My MLCer and I have been divorced for over six years. I am remarried to someone special. My MLCer even showed remorse and gave me a sincere apology. Spoke to my youngest, my ex is interested in a new guy. She says he seems nice and is bald like me. We've both moved forward. My own thread is coming to a close. As time passes, I find myself in a different phase and different mindset. When I reach the point when my advice no longer helps or has a positive impact, I will stop.

In the meantime, I shall continue. I will post with an intent to help and delivery to support. I may not always succeed but I do so as it is my honor on the line. I do both in real life and on the forum.

So as you discuss or debate on someone's thread, I guess I can only hope that you do so with honor as well.


Have a great evening or morning depending on where you are,

(((((Ready))))))


RCR Edited to correct quote coding.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:06:35 PM by Rollercoasterider »
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Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2019, 10:11:31 PM »
Ready-I will respond to your questions because it is simply a matter of style that you are missing about me.

I did not come here for advice that is delivered advice columnist style. I didn't come here to create a thread, post all personal details of my life (I personally find this format to be intrusive and invasive of my privacy) and then sit back and wait for people to give me advice on what I do.

I came here primarily to do two things-1-Read the collective content of the site and take from it what is relevant to my own situation with or without any discussion or questions on it, 2-Discuss MLC issues as general ISSUES, especially on issue related threads, which can include discussion of examples from my own life and others.

Telling me to get my own thread and post all the private details of my life to me is prying and overstepping one's bounds. I know most people who POST here don't see it that way, but there are plenty of people who log in every day and read, and NEVER post a single post, so I would suggest there are far more people like me around here who prefer to keep our general story private than you realize. Perhaps, if there was less of a pressure to post about one's personal MLC experiences and more encouragement of discussion and even debate on MLC as a phenomenon, the forum would be more welcoming to a wider range of helpful people.

In fact, I feel rather put on that I have to explain the concept of personal privacy and being selective about what I post at all to you. I shouldn't have to do that either.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:16:27 PM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2019, 06:37:21 AM »
Telling me to get my own thread and post all the private details of my life to me is prying and overstepping one's bounds. I know most people who POST here don't see it that way, but there are plenty of people who log in every day and read, and NEVER post a single post, so I would suggest there are far more people like me around here who prefer to keep our general story private than you realize.

I understand, acknowledge, and respect your right and everyone else's right to privacy, speaking as one who probably shares more than I should. But I feel compelled to point out the obvious. If everyone comes here to read and nobody posts, there will be nothing to read. If nobody posts private details, there will be no additions to the store of general knowledge about MLC and MLC behaviors. And to only take from the forum without contributing could be seen as a selfish form of behavior. I'm not saying that people who only read are being selfish, there is no obligation to contribute, but with no contributors there is no forum. And when somebody does take part in the discussions without having posted the details of their situation we have no context for their comments. For all we know they could be a journalist or a troll.

I'm not sure how we could discuss and/or debate MLC as a phenomenon without including personal experiences since there doesn't seem to be an accepted definition of MLC. One of the things I believe this forum is doing is defining MLC. We could easily discuss and/or debate attachment theory or the effects of childhood trauma, or the effects of spousal abandonment and divorce since those issues seem to be fairly well researched and a large body of knowledge already exists but we seem to be the pioneers when it comes to MLC. There are a few resources like the Conways but those seem to be pretty limited. The discussions are usually related to personal experiences so the discussions will probably end if nobody is willing to relate their personal experiences.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2019, 06:44:59 AM »
MBIB-I would suggest you go read the archive of my posts. I DO post about my situation, selectively, when the context warrants it. I just choose not to have a personal thread.

And for your information both RCR and OP know why I choose not to have a personal thread and choose not to post my entire story and they support me in that decision and think it is a sound one.
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Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2019, 07:34:52 AM »
NYM, I'm sorry if you were offended by my post. My comments were intended to be general in nature and not targeted at you specifically. Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was criticizing you. Each of our situations is unique and all of us would be wise to remember that when we respond to posts. IMO. Others may not agree with me and that's ok too. Although I am human so I will probably like you (meaning everyone, not just NYM) better if you agree with me or at least are willing to agree to disagree.  :D

And yes, I realize that most people who read this will probably care less whether I like them or not. And I'm ok with that too. :)

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2019, 07:40:15 AM »
Well, you should love me because I totally agree with you on the role of FOO issues and the CPTSD angle to MLC.  :D
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Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2019, 03:31:40 PM »
NYM, you're practically my best friend now! :D

 

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