[Anjae]

There are simply not many facts known about mlc.

There aren't?...

Pretty much EVERYTHING about mlc is only opinion.

Interesting. What pretty much everything about MLC is only opinion?

Don't recall anyone saying it was just a challange, rather when challanged in the sense of being put questions or to think differently.

I think there may be a confusion between facts, someone is in MLC, Replay, Monster, etc. and opinions.

I think most MLCers will come out of MLC and of those most will want back, diffent from being allowed back. RCR is not longer knows if most MLCers will come out of MLC and she does not think of those most will want back. Those are opinions.

Those of you so upsed with opinions/personal experience being passed for fact did not seem so when SS's was/is saying things like LBS know that your MLCer loves you and is thinking about you. How does she knows? Does she knows our MLCers? It seems to me the issue only exists if, by chance, it happens to be me, LP, Air, NYM, etc.

Brain goes around saying MLCers are abused people, yet he does not know all our MLCers. No matter how many times I tell him it does not aplly to myself, my cousin who had MLC and the real life people who had a MLC or are having one, he still insists MLCers are abused people.


Debate and discussion have several meanings, some very similar. It depends of dictionary.

"(a) serious discussion of a subject in which many people take part:"

"a discussion, esp. one in which several people with different opinions about something discuss them seriously, or the process of discussing something"

from: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/debate

You are not any kind of abusive man, neither is Standing, in my opinion.

[Not Applicable]

This is primarily the reason why debate is held as a kind of competition to prove one’s speaking and communicative ability.

Yes, if you are still in high school and you attend a high school debating competition. But we are adults here.

We can use the presidential debates in the US these days as an example though. A debate is an opportunity to convince others of your position on a matter. It becomes a debate if someone else has an opposing view and expresses that view.

It's not about proving speaking and communicative ability. It's about the relative merits of the substance of the arguments being made.

Sometimes people who lack confidence in responding to others' points in a discussion will accuse them of making a debate about proving one's abilities, and ignore the substance and points of the other person's argument. In the context of a forum like this, these are the kind of people who complain to the moderator that somehow they are being attacked, when in actuality, all they need to do is present their own opposing viewpoints and allow themselves to be heard.

I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

I could be wrong, but I feel the underlying message in the original post here is an attempt to shut people down who are expressing their opinions.

[3Boys4Me]

Thanks for this discussion Thunder, it seems like a more fruitful place to discuss this on this thread than embedded elsewhere. I post rarely, but I read and I have yet to tell my story - maybe I’m hesitant because of some of the antagonism I see on this board. Let me give a concrete example - I was reading in Shock Sis thread and there was a discussion about blame - the OW/OM versus the MLCer - I stated my opinion that each individual was 100% responsible for their actions - both the MLCer and OW make their own decisions - to lie, cheat, destroy a marriage etc. I was told abruptly, and I quote - 3Boys you are wrong.... hmmmm, really? opinions are not facts, they are opinions and as such, like feelings, they are neither right nor wrong, they simply are. The comment was made by a person who is triggered by recovering MLCer shock sis. Opinions aren’t up for debate - we can agree, we can agree to disagree - but when a person vehemently suggests other people are wrong because they think differently, then the issue is with the person righteously proclaiming they are correct and all others are wrong. It’s exhausting - and does it really belong on a forum where we come to each other for support? I don’t know, I find that the people who bridge opinions with compassion, who ask probing questions without judgement - and who relate to the person speaking rather than only from their perspective is where the true value of this board lies - we all need to be heard and listened to -

For me, non-violent communication - whether I agree with an opinion or not - will always be far more effective at breaking down barriers to understanding and finding common ground - I am here for the common ground - if I wanted to fight - I would text my MLCer ...

[Not Applicable]

Brain goes around saying MLCers are abused people, yet he does not know all our MLCers. No matter how many times I tell him it does not aplly to myself, my cousin who had MLC and the real life people who had a MLC or are having one, he still insists MLCers are abused people.

Brain is not alone in that opinion. A lot of us agree with him, and disagree with you.

But there is value in that disagreement, as much as I think you are wrong, your opposition to the idea that FOO issues are at play in MLC is a useful learning moment for those of us who disagree. Because your vehement opposition shows us how hard it would be to simply point out to our MLCers what may be patently obvious to us, that they have FOO issues. That they may deny and deflect and reject such a point, just as you have. Last night I was so tempted to tell my H that he needs to deal with whatever his issues are with food after he asked me to make dinner and then 5 minutes later angrily told me he didn't want any. But then I said, you know what, he won't listen. He has to figure it out for himself.

[Anjae]

Feelings are neither right nor wrong, they just are, yet we question the MLCer's feelings for the alienator and to consider them right.

I see no reason for LBS not to tell their story. In fact, if I am not mistaken HS has, or used to have a rule where LBS need to have their own story thread and tell their story.

There are several LBS without a story thread, including mods. It did not used to be that way. And, not, it is not because of discussions. HS was far more aggressive years ago.


MLCers as a whole have been abused is different than MLCers, like everyone else, having FOO issues. I'm not keen on the idea MLC only comes from FOO issues nor that those issues are from childhood. Adolescence makes sense for myself, childhood does not. There no issues when I was a child, there were things from when I was to turn 14 onwards. I have spoke about it in the past.

However, I don't think that was the reason for my MLC and I do not recall working on any issues related with the matter. Maybe I did and it vanished.


Since I was not abused, my cousin was not, Mr J was not and no one in real life I know who is having a MLC, or had, was, surely MLCers were abused is not true. Some MLCers were abused, not all MLCers.

I don't know any real life MLCer that had a dad like yours nor who had a childhood like Brain's.

But that was not my point bringing Brain, and SS's up.

Can't say I ever noticed Mr J working on any issues. He is still deep in Replay where the buses don't run. Nothing in his childhood or adolescence was that bad. Many non-MLCer people I know had really terrible childhoods and/or adolescences. My adolescence was far worst than his. My MLC was mild and short. Lenght and severity of MLC do not seem to equal what happened in a person childhood and/or adolescence.


You are talking about me, 3Boys4Me. It was I that said both MLCer and OW/OM are responsible for their actions, but OW/OM are not married to us and the only person responsible for the end of the marriage and getting involved with OW/OM is the MLCer.

SS's was trying to excuse herself with OM being manipulative. He may had been, but she was the one who start chatting to him on-line. Sure, he chatted back, but she was looking for someone. OM was not married to the LBS.

Not sure what SS's, or any other MLCer being on the lookout for OM/OW has to do with feelings. It is a fact, not a feeling or an opinion.

[lawprofessor]

I don't see debate is part of discussion. 

 I don't care for debates either.

So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?  I wish I knew.  Maybe ignore the debaters who just want to argue?

 Opinions can be discussed and should be. 

Well you've structured this thread with the basic underlying premise that:

debates are bad
debates are not part of discussion
You don't like debates

The implied (suggested) goal then is to stop debate.

And your suggestion is to ignore those who you judge as just wanting to argue.

Hmmm,

That's not a discussion when the "correct" answer is so clearly implied.  That's set up so that anyone who disagrees with the premise is wrong and is debating.

But setting aside that point,

So because you have a problem with debate however defined, others need to accommodate/change?

But it's just a select group that must change.  Those who have different thoughts and approaches from yours.  Others even when they post emotionally charged out of control personal attacks don't face the sanctions and condemnation of being singled out as not part of the clique here.  Brain jumps to mind with his now famous quote wishing a MLC on anyone who disagrees with him.

And your judgement that anyone who is seemingly debating, just wants to argue? What if that's an incorrect judgement based on your personal issues? 

Rcr just highlighted that occurring in a post from XYZCF after all.  And you followed that up with agreement after all, before RCR posted her disagreement, naturally.  So who wanted to argue/debate?  Rcr? You? XYZCF? Me who was not participating in that part of the discussion?

What about instead approaching it without personal biases, addressing it from a neutral beginning and addressing content?  "I disagree with x because xyz so we can agree to disagree."

This whole created issue is nothing more than a rehash of old arguments between love them back and tough love sides in my opinion famed in a new manner. 

Adults shouldn't have to surround themselves with only people who are similar to themselves in thought and personality.  That's what MLCers do in large part and that's disparaged on HS.  Yet here some want to that seemingly. 

That's not a road to success or growth and it's hypocritical to do the same here yet complain a MLCer is doing wrong. 

My opinion.

Lp

[Thunder]

LP,

I'm not asking anyone to do anything.  People are going to do what their going to do.  They can disagree with me all they want, as long as it's kept civil.

MB just asked how we can stop a discussion from turning into a debate.  I said I wish I knew.  Maybe don't engage with people who are only wanting to debate.

My point in having this Discussion thread was only to point out there is a difference between debating and discussing.  At least I think there is. 

I very much enjoy hearing different view points on an issue.
It has changed my mind many times hearing how someone else sees something, maybe from a side I hadn't thought of.  I'm not closed minded.

What I don't like is bullying someone into agreeing with your point of view.
I think that is possibly why many of us say we don't like debate.  It turns into arguments on here.

In a debate you are expected to try to change someone's mind to agree with your point of view.   A discussion is an exchange of ideas, you're not trying to change someone's mind.
You might be giving them a different way of looking at something.

I have often read your posts and agreed with what you have said, sometimes I don't.
But I respect that you have never been impolite to anyone.

In my personal life I debate a lot with my friends and family on political issues, it may get spirited at times, but we always respect each other.  If we find we can't agree in the end, we just let it go.
I wish that would happen more on this board.  Just agree to disagree and let it go.

Btw, I don't think debates are bad.
Maybe we should have a Debate icon for people who enjoy it.   

[Not Applicable]

The problem is that some of us are wrongly tarred and feathered as "wanting to argue" or "wanting to debate."

I'm not particularly interested in either. I have an opinion, I state it. Simple as that.

Then there are others who don't agree or don't like my opinion, and therefore, my simply stating my position gets twisted into wanting to argue or wanting to debate.

I'd love it if everyone agreed with me, but I have ZERO control over the fact that some people don't. If they agreed with me, they wouldn't see it as an argument or a debate, would they? It's a catch-22.

You once accused me of pushing the point about "aliens" too hard on Shocked's thread. I think you actually thought I was bullying.

You know the reason I kept repeating myself?

I seriously did not want to repeat myself, I was getting sick of having to do so actually. It was like banging my head against the wall.

But I did it because you were twisting the meaning of what I said to mean something completely different, and I had no choice but to clarify my position or else what seemed like blatant attempts on your part to attribute malicious intentions on me that I did not have would have stood. I didn't need anyone to agree with my position, i just had to protect my position from being mischaracterized by you.

[Thunder]

I'm sorry NYM, I really don't remember this conversation.

Do you remember what thread of hers that was on?  You were discussing aliens?

[lawprofessor]

 I did it because you were twisting the meaning of what I said to mean something completely different, and I had no choice but to clarify my position or else what seemed like blatant attempts on your part to attribute malicious intentions on me that I did not have would have stood. I didn't need anyone to agree with my position, i just had to protect my position from being mischaracterized by you.

THIS!!!
Right here!

I can't tell you how much time is wasted when someone reads into a post instead of reading the words there.  Then they react and scream hurtling ridiculous accusations to something not written in the post personalizing something.  And one can't defend themselves against ideas made up in another's mind.  I ask them to show me where I said "that" and I get some rambling well I can't find it right now but...if any response.

Do you think even 1 comes back and says, Gee I see you didn't say that.  I'm sorry I reacted,?  Nope not one.  They just huff off to their thread whispering that I'm mean.

That's not to mention the number of times some twist words to suit their preconceived judgements of others and to suit their own agenda. 

If someone doesn't understand what's said, how about asking for clarification? 

But the go to for some is personalize and react rather than reading, considering, and thinking. Stop that and a portion of the nastiness that ensues won't get started. But that would entail people behaving like adults rather than like high school girls in a clique.

My opinion.
Lp